Hour Building (General & UK)

[WGW]

Just completed my PPL, 60 hours or so and now want to push on to 150 before looking to do a modular ATPL. Does anyone have any suggestions for how best to structure those hours? Perhaps someone's currently on an hour-building course with a recognised modular ATPL flying school and could let me know the syllabus they're working to. The schools that I've spoken to have been understandably secretive 'cos they want me to hour build with them. And their rates don't tend to be the cheapest around...

Cheers,

WGW

[A and C]

do all the night hours that you can and do long flights into europe remember the customs man will give you money to go abrord (about £50 for a PA28 with full tanks) the landing fees are cheaper in france as is the fuel ,also use the channel islands when you can for very cheap fuel.
If you can do a few air rallys it will sharpen up you navigation skills for the GFT and its good fun ,i can recomend the guernsey air rally as a good place to start it is held in mid september and i dont think you can beat it for a weekend of cheap flying fun .
The reason you need night hours is for the issue of the ATPL most people seem to be short of night hours come issue time so with a little forward planning you can avoid this pitfall.

[WGW]

Was thinking of heading to Oz for 3 weeks or so if I can persuade my boss (also a PPL, very useful indeed) to let me have a teensy bit of unpaid leave to make it all worthwhile. Would I be advised to 'save' a few hours for night rating and IMC, or is it a case of 'hours is hours'. I don't intend flying up and down the coast; a few serious x-countries may be on the cards. Take it an Australian CASA night rating won't cut the mustard back home, but I guess night flying abroad would still be night flying. Any other suggestions? How to the flying schools structure their hours between PPL level and start of ATPL ground school?

[NeilGascoigne]

I understand this is/might be a requirement for the CPL. How is structured hour building defined and how does it differ from unstructured hours?

Yours,

. .--'Baron

[bigjarv]

I am considering purchasing a share in a complex single to complete the last 60 hours I require to be elegible for a CPL IR course.

Was just wondering if anyone knows the pitfalls of hour building this way? I can't see why more people don't do it! The hourly rate works out to be at least as cheap as going abroad and, cause you are at home you can take mates and "share costs"! That makes the hourly rate even cheaper! Plus you don't have the expense of transport and living costs abroad. All the hours you get are on a complex single, which is great, and you fly in the UK which must be beneficial. And finally, you have a plane at your disposal. This allows you to ligitimatly tell all the ladies at the bar that you own a plane!!! Good one!!

It all seems too good to be true so what am I missing?!?!?! There is usually something!! ;)

[2close]

No expert by any stretch of the imagination but from reading other forums it would seem prudent to be careful what you're buying in to. To name but a few of the points I've picked up on:

Type of AC.

Cost per share.

Number of members.

Availability.

Monthly fixed costs.

Hourly charge.

Number of aircraft hours flown per month.

Public or Private CofA.

Amount of money spent on maintenance over past couple of years.

I'm sure there are far more learned bods out there than me but this could be a bit of a taster.

Best Regards,

2close

[parris50]

I considered this but was put off by the possiblity of not being able to find a buyer for my share at the end.

[QNH 1013]

If its just the hours you're after, it is difficult to find anything cheaper than a PFA permit "group A" aeroplane. I am treasurer of a Jodel group flying on a PFA permit. The group has operated for about 20 years and I like to think our group is extremely well run. To give you some idea of costs; share price (1/6 share) £2500, monthly standing charge is £37, cost per hour (airborne, not brakes 0ff/On) £6 per hour plus you buy your own AVGAS and leave the aircraft full for the next flight.
There are several commercial pilots flying now ( including me), who built hours (used to need 700 hours) on this aircraft.

Downside:

No electrics, so you have to swing the prop. This is more an imagined problem than a real problem.

PFA permit, so no IFR or night flights allowed.

Only 3 hour-to-dry-tanks range, and only 80 knot cruise, so route of a long trip is often determined by fuel availibility.

Like many interesting aircraft it is a taildragger, so you have to do some more learning.

I now fly for a living, but wouldn't have got my current job without all the tailwheel hours, the bulk of which I got on this aircraft.

Look around there are plenty of groups. Like everything in aviation, its still a financial risk, but compared to the cost of commercial training the risk is modest.

[no sponsor]

I too looked into buying a share, and ummed and ahhhed for a while, and didn't do it.

The problem I have at my local club is that it is far too busy to get a plane in short notice, i.e. within a week. This means I either take an extended lunch, or just don't fly. It is more often the latter. Taking the plane for a weekend or for the whole day is just out of the question.

I did look into a share in a complex single, and once I delved into the costs, it started to look quite expensive. Wet hr was £80, and monthly costs were £300. Adding this all up meant that it was a false economy, I'd be needing to do an awful lot of hrs to make it cheaper.

The advantage was that the three other members in the group didn't really ever use the aircraft, and none of them had ever taken it away for a weekend. Something which I liked the sound of, so from a logistical point it was much better. I reckon the only reason I didn't do it was it would take about 90 mins in the car to get to the airfield.

Now this does sound expensive, and I've seen much cheaper options - an Arrow in North London and no joining fee etc, and there is a chap on this site with a couple of 152s in Oxford that look quite tempting - very cheap hrs. The only problem with these is the length of time is takes to get there in the car.

[bigjarv]

Thanx 2close! Good advice! I have looked into most of those variables. Apparently 10 is about the right number of members for a share plane in order to get about 100 hours per year and keep the costs low. The cost per share equates to roughly what the plane is worth, bearing in mind I wanted to go for a complex single. The hourly charge is cheaper than going to America or South Africa for a similar aeroplane type. The monthly charge isn't too extreme at £70 per month. The group meets once every couple of months and the maintenance can be checked through the minutes taken from the meetings. Low hours on the engine and recently overhauled etc. Availability is good during the week which suits me and having looked at the internet booking system they use a number of people simply don't use it!!

The private C of A also allows me to do training with an instructor on my shared plane which is plenty cheaper than doing it on a school plane. Good for all those IMC and night ratings!

As you say Parris50, the only real gamble is being able to see it again but I've been reasonably reliably informed that 2 months will usually see off a share provided it is the right time of year (ealy to mid summer).

Still seems a good option at the moment!! Treading with caution thou!!! Any other considerations.

[BIG MISTER]

I have a share in a small shipping company and we have been importing lots of aircraft from the USA thanks to the strong £.

At the last count I think we have 12 aircraft on route with 4 arriving this week......off the back of a lorry ! ! !

Most of these have been for PFA members and as a long standing member myself I would strongly recomend anyone with an interest in GA join them.

Have a look at dear old ebay in the USA for an idea of costs for a aircraft and if anyone is interested in exploring this option then you know where I am.

www.ebay.com then look under the motor section and other vehicles. Just looked myself and there are 162 aircraft of all types on there......

I'm like a kid in a sweet shop everytime I log into this part of ebay BE WARNED !

:ok:

[Gazeem]

Bigjarv,

you seem to be set on a complex type SEP,

if you are hour building I'm sure you realise that it doesn't matter what SEP the hours are completed on, a simple SEP will suffice and keep the cost down, most airline captains probably will not care or indeed be able to tell the diffference between a PA28-140 and a PA28R-201! However of it is what you want so be it!!

In my view buying a share for hour building is a good move - it worked for me, I was in a group of 16 and availability always very good - you will be surprised how many people own a share and never fly or only fly an hour a month! An internet booking system and clear booking rules maximise availability.

Also with regards to disposing of your share - a larger group and cheaper share worked here, it worked out that with the hours that I required to build - the discount over a flying club rate was greater than the initial cost of the share! So selling the share at the end just made the cost even cheaper.

Although be warned that you have to be prepared to stand a share in unexpected maintenance costs should they arise - it's worth checking that the aircraft has a good and long standing relationship with a good engineer.

Good luck and happy flying

Gaz

[bigjarv]

Thanx to everyone for all the hints and advice and experiences! It's all super helpful.

My reason for chosing a complex single is for the experience and preperation as I will be coing my CPL and IR in something with a wobbly prop and wheels that go up n down. I'm also keen to have the longer legs of a complex. It will make doing slightly more adventurous trips of decent lengths possible and hopefully put me in some testing scenarios and conditions. That might make an impression on the captain sitting next to me (if that far off day ever arrives!!!). Plus I can see my self heading down to the south of France or Italy or Spain and that just sounds like a lot of fun!!

No Sponsor! I think you can do better than the rates you mentioned. Have a look in the back of Flyer Magazine. There are plenty at £50 per hour wet and about £60 per month fixed cost. Amazingly cheap in my opinion and certainly worth a small gamble! By jove I think I'm gonna do it!! Just talked my self into it!!!! Or has anyone got a horror story!! :\

[no sponsor]

I think the sole idea for a share was the fact you could take the aircraft to Portugal for a week and no-one else in the group would mind...so make sure the airctraft is what you want for the trips you plan on doing.

Make sure the group already has a substantial fund - e.g. £10K +, that it is well run, and has a set of legal rules for which you sign up to, including rules on how you sell your share. A well run group will have all these adminstrative things sorted out. Check the items that are due to be replaced, etc, and when the next C of A is etc; obviously the thing to do here is to avoid being faced with a huge cost of a replacement engine the day after you signed up. I was negotiating a opt out clause for the first 6 months, so that I was immune from some disaster.

The more complex the aircraft the more fussy the current members are on who joins. This can be driven by insurance, but many will request a PPL and IMC. Any increase in the insurance because of you will see you footing the bill for that increase.

Sounds like you want to do some extensive flying, so have a nice comfy aircraft, with a good set of avionics. The aircraft I was looking at (a Commander 114) had a recent overhaul of the avionics, which cost about £30K.

As for mentioning that you want to hour build, be aware that may make some people run a mile, and refuse to accept you.

Also, you will probably become a director in the company that owns the plane, so make sure you're not a bankrupt!!

[pacole]

I am currently looking into buying upto 200 hours to increase my total and P1 time. Does anyone have any recommendations for cheap hours building anywhere in the world?

Recommendations and contact details would be gratefully appreciated.:ok:

[silverknapper]

Buying 200 hours for experience....interesting.
Would guess it depends what you hope to achieve. I am assuming here you have a CPL/IR and are trying to be more employable.
Obviously cheapest hour building outwith buying a share is the US, South Africa, NZ etc. Get a 152 for £35 or thereabouts.
BUT
I would argue what will you gain from this. Probably not a lot and I can't see a future employer giving you a job on the back of drilling holes in the sky. Why not get an FI rating if it's more hours you want. You'll learn how to really fly a light a/c and potentially get many more hours for a much smaller outlay. And whilst it is argued instructing has little relevance to airline jobs it will be much better than burning up £7k on not much.

SK

[Martin1234]

You can rent a PA28 wet for £43 in Sweden which also includes landing fees at most Swedish airports.

[mike halls]

Hey Pacole,

Good schools in florida to build hours,

c-152 is 30 sterling a hour
c-172 is 41 sterling a hour
pa-28 is 41 sterling a hour
pa-28r is 50 sterling a hour
pa-34 is 70 sterling a hour

the prices are quite good for time building,hope this
helps you pacole.
PM me if you need any other advice.

safe flying all

mike

[simshield]

Try out Air Desert Pacific in LA. If you want to do a large amount of hours you won't find much cheaper. Great location. Check out www.airdesertpacific.com for details.

[Longfinals]

I am planning a trip to either S.Africa or the US to do some hour building and was looking for a buddy as flying aorund by ones self for 40 hrs+ gets boring. I was looking at November or Jan/Feb though I am open to suggestions.

Drop me line if your are intersted


:)

[englishal]

A few of us are planning a trip to California in October if you're interested.......

we don't do 152's or old doggy planes though :D The best I've found so far is a 2002 OMF Symphony 160 for $75 per hour wet, brilliant aircraft....

EA

[Longfinals]

When did you plan on going and how many in the group? Have you got a tel number I can call you on and have a chat?

[englishal]

I'll drop you a PM (or send me your email address) when we have more concrete plans. Should be around 20th October to Long Beach for a couple of weeks (for me; maybe longer for the others). At the moment there are three of us, so 4 would be good, then we can take two planes.

Cheers
EA:D

[crosswindaviator]

Hi all,

i'm looking for addresses to do some cheep time building.
anyone have some ideas?
the place I always hear from fellow students is air desert pacific, but I was wondering if there were more options... south africa? down-under?

greetz:ok:

[birdlady]

Hi Crosswind

Ive just completed my PPL and most of my hour building here in South Africa. I have to say the training is brillant and its cheaper than most places. Im currently at Superior Pilot Services in Johannesburg and they are excellent. [email protected] or [email protected]
If you need more info please dont hesitate to pm me.
Ciao BL:ok: :ok:

[buzzc152]

I bought a share in a C150 and flew around for about £25-30 per hour. All the usual hassles of part ownership but still worked out very cheap (and has the plus of doing all your hour building in the UK).

As is happens (and forgive the advertisment) I'm now selling my share. PM if you happen to be interested.

Buzz

[Captain Ratpup]

Definitely up for that. Just quit the job and took out the mandatory £25k loan for modular courses. Wouldn't mind a trip out there during my groundschool. Long Beach has a cracking reputation from what I've heard.

Regards,

Ratpup

[birdlady]

Longfinals

I saw that your thinking about going to s.africa for hourbuilding. Its a brillant place to train as there are some really interesting places you can fly to. I just finished my PPl and some of my hours here in Johannesburg and the school I went to was brillant. Superior pilot services in Grand Central (midway between Pretoria and Johannesburg). They are offering some really good packages at the moment and the gentleman who owns the school is an ex JAA instructor so is very farmilar with the JAA system. Piper 160 just a steal at 55 pounds an hour solo wet rate. However, if you do choose sa I would strongly suggest you try to come in the winter (June - August) as the thunderstorms in the summer are an absolute B***h.
The states is cheaper for flying but once you factor in living expenses etc sa is cheaper (Ive done some detailed research on this) and the beer is cheap and the weather is good apart from the thunderstorms in the summer. What else could one ask for..........

Ciao BL:ok: :ok: :ok:

[PrecisionLandings]

Hi guys i have decided to start training for my fAtpl via the modular route alot of it most likely foreign. This is because it suites my particular situation. I am wondering whether to do my ground school first and then my hour building which will give me the chance to study in my spare time whilst working and saving and also doing a couple of hours a month. Or whether to save go out and do my Hourbuilding come back and start my ground school when i come back and save for my CPL/ME

Any advice given will be greatly appreciated.


PL

[scraglad]

Hi there,

I would certainly do the exams first for the simple reason..................


If you do hour building first,you wont be as sharp and as up to speed after you finish your exams.

It usually takes 6-7 months to complete the exams(if your lucky!!), so therefore its a long time out of the cockpit.

Hope this helps.

[PrecisionLandings]

Thanks for you help mate doing the groundschool seems to be the most logical step. Plus i can do the odd few hours every month to keep licence and skills current and will probably mean i have less hour building to in the states

Regards

PL.

:ok:

[flighttime2.0]

When I was in your situation I decided to put the flying to the side and concentrate on the atpl exams ... once the exams were out of the way I went streight in to the hour building and the cpl once I had enough time on the log book .
Im delighted I went down this root as when I came to the flight test I was well up to scratch on the flying and also well familiar with the area ..

[PrecisionLandings]

thanks for you help FT2.0

[winch launch]

I have recently decided to finish my hours building in the US and the only period available for me is christmas ( which is very soon). I was pretty interested in naples for doing 50 hrs on a C150 and 50 on the seminole (as the prices for ME flying are very interesting in the US) But they require 300 hours total time to rent it. Does any one know a place with cheap fares and having requirements less restrictive for ME flying? I have 160 h TT with 110 P1.

Regards

winch

[B2N2]

Text too short so once again check your email pls.

[winch launch]

The email adress that was on my profil was an old one that I don t have access to anymore. I have just updated it. Don t hesitate to contact me.

Thanx

Winch

[GoldenMonkey]

Winch Launch

I was in the states this summer just gone. The thing I found with Multi engine is that the insurance requirements seemed to require 50 hours on type before solo rental. After getting the rating, one guy I know had to have an instructor sit with him for every other flight!

May be different else where, but you will want to be sure, especially when it comes to CAA validating your log book.

GM

[winch launch]

Looked through few threads and it seems that air desert pacific is the good thing for me. They told me I could fly ME aircrafts but with a safety pilot. And apparently even though you have a safety pilot with you, you can log the hours as P1. Has anyone encountered any problems in validating those hours as P1, regarding JAA regulations?

Regards

[MEI]

Any flight school will have instructors lined up to fly with you. After you have your license you are logging PIC, so is the instructor although they will never touch your logbook. Ah the beauty of FAA.

[albatros146]

Hi everybody!

Does anybody know a way to avoid combining flying and big money?
CPL IR need to build hrs. mainly IFR and turbine.

Many thanks.
albatros146

[PrecisionLandings]

Hi guys just wondering if anyone knows of any cheap places to hour build in the states. Cheapest i have seen is $48 with debenair for a cessna 152.

Precision Landings

[scallaghan]

Hi All,

I am trying to work out whether I should do a IMC rating to get a good grounding before going on for CPL/ME and IR training while studying my ATPL ground school modular course.

Also thinking it would be good for flying around the U.K when building my hours up here.

Would it be best to spend the cash on 15 hours for an IMC followed by hour building or not to bother with?

Cheers

Sean

[AlexL]

I cannot speak form experiance as I am about to start my IMC, but the reason I am starting it is that I am planning to do ATPL's distance learning and hour build alongside the ATPL's and my day job. And from experience of the last 18 months of holding my PPL the chance of building circa 75-100 hours in a year or so without an IMC in the UK is quite slim if you are restricted by day jobs or other commitments. So I am primarily planning the IMC in order to facilitate flying when I otherwise wouldn't be able to.
wether its useful for the CPL or IR? I don't know but the discipline of reasonably accurate and instrument flying must be at least a lttle help.

[TheOddOne]

Sean,

My experience says definitely 'yes', but not necessarily for the reasons you stated. It does depend upon how you plan to advance your flying training.

I did my PPL in 1982, then considered commercial flying in the late 80's at the time the BCPL came out. Doing the IMC rating I believe lifted the quality of my flying an enormous amount; I'd say it's like doing the PPL course 'properly', with much better discipline in the flying that, with further specific tuition, I was able to carry forward to successfully complete the CPL flying test. The IMC exams aren't a great help with the CPL/ATPL papers but they do help to keep you focussed on a little academic work.

In the event, I didn't get further than the BCPL, as I didn't qualify then for a Class 1 medical. Bizarrely, under JAA, I now do, but a little late for me now. I'd strongly advise anyone considering a professional aviation career to invest in the medical first, to save disappointment and money later. Someone I knew in the early 80's got a cadetship for ATC at Bournemouth and then failed the medical (eye problems again).

Although I've let the BCPL lapse I keep the PPL going, renewing my IMC rating for the umpteenth time last week - an SRA into a military field just for something different, a little stretching and great fun!

Personally, I've always regarded the IMC rating as a 'get you home service' rather than carte blanche to go plunging about in a light single in unsuitable weather. It taught me more about proper respect for the weather and I suppose it was frightening myself a bit on a couple of occasions that also pushed me towards it. I think I was a little lucky that my post-PPL over-confidence didn't get me into real trouble.

Anyhow, the best of luck with your chosen path.

Cheers,
The Odd One

[High Wing Drifter]

Personally, I've always regarded the IMC rating as a 'get you home service' rather than carte blanche to go plunging about in a light single in unsuitable weather.
Prehaps a little over cautious for some and maybe not for others. With just 15hrs of training you may or may not feel comfortable with the idea of flying into the grey yonder. I was lucky enough to be able to much of my training in real IMC so I am quite than happy to depart knowing that a portion of my journey will be in cloud.

[scallaghan]

I regard it as a rating that is used to get you home and not to use as a way of flying on a bad weather day.

I was thinking it wouldn't be a bad idea considering I will properly end up doing my IR later and I was hoping this would be a good start for that and if I get caught by the weather here.

At the moment I have the class 1 medical, studying a modular ground school course and am flying PA28's and PA28 Arrow.

The other problem is hour building, I was in the U.S recently and decided not to use a school for hour building as I wasn't happy.

So now while doing the ground school at home in the evenings, I am trying to go flying when I can during the week or weekends.

With the cost of U.K hiring etc; I am contacting as many people I know, flying groups and placing adverts to try and fly their aircraft rather then using the school's aircraft as their rates are too expensive.

While doing the above, saving cash for the CPL/ME and IR courses, I might have to go abroad to finish my hour building but will not use the U.S for that.

Thanks for information

Sean

[High Wing Drifter]

The problem with the "get you home only" view, is that by definition, you won't be current when you need it most. If you aren't current, then it will be lethal...just when you have painted yourself into a corner too! Honestly, with a bit of decent planning and currency then IMC is not a big issue.

[newflyer]

DeBenair is a good bet. The $48/hr rate is for 100hr block bookings. Check out the DeBenair thread for more info.

All the best.

[Nags Teeth]

Dear all...

Can anyone help?

I am in a ponder as to where to go Hour Building, people keep saying the States.

Well thats great but where?

Plus if I could I would rather stay in Europe, is there anywhere I could, Spain would be good.

Would be grateful for any help, Thanks:ok:

[FlyingForFun]

First question - where did you do your PPL?

Next question, where do you think you might do your CPL?

Personally, I would stay away from both of those places for hour-building. Go somewhere completely different, for a wider range of experiences!

I did my hour-building in Phoenix, Arizona. Had a fantastic time, and would recommend it as a great base to fly from for a month or two.

My only regret is that I went on to do my CPL in Florida. Granted that Florida and Arizona are about as far apart as you can get in terms of terrain (and therefore VFR navigation techniques, and special training that you'll need like mountain flying) - but if I could do it again, I'd have gone somewhere different for the hour-building, just to get some real experience of another country. Top of my list would have been Canada, South Africa and Australia, all of which have very good general aviation scenes, but little or no JAR-approved training.

Whatever you decide, though, the most important thing is to have fun! :)

FFF
--------------

[VisaGeeza]

HSG, just for the record, which countries have you flown solo for more than five hours? from your post Pilots trained in the US tend not to get a grasp on strong crosswind landings, changeable environments and a million ATC frequency changes it's pretty evident that you haven't flown in the USA or at least not outside of Florida.

I would certainly have no doubts about suggesting California and the surrounding states for hourbuilding, both for price and diverse experiences.

[BillieBob]

Whilst not wishing to denigrate hours building in the US, I must take issue with VisaGeeza. Having flown at least 5 hours (probably nearer 50 hrs) in each of 49 states (never did make it to HI) I can confirm that the ATC environment in Europe is significantly more intense and entirely different.

On the other hand, crosswinds and changing environments are far more significant in some parts of the US than anywhere in Europe - try anywhere in Colorado about now!

If you are looking to do CPL/IR in Europe, my advice would be to do at least some of your hours building in Europe but, if you have the chance to do some in the US, avoid the benign areas like FL, CA, AZ, etc - go somewhere more challenging.

[thebeast]

'pilots trained in the US tend not to get a grasp on strong crosswind landings'

yeah ofcourse its little known meteorological fact but theres no wind in the USA !

In terms of pure hour building then i think the US is a must certainly compareed to Europe (not sure about OZ or SA), purely because of the cost. For block hours you can get a 172 for $70 and a 152 for just over $50, convert that into pounds and you'll see why im saying that. Oh and you u dont need a visa or have to deal with the TSA for hour bulding either.

beast

[englishal]

Pilots trained in the US tend not to get a grasp on strong crosswind landings, changeable environments and a million ATC frequency changes...more importantly, employers know this.
What a load of rubbish ;)

Try landing on 25 when the afternoon sea breeze kicks in at 15 knots from 160° and ATC are reluctant to change runways.....and this is in California!

Try flying in the LA Basin and tell me that ATC is not as busy as in the UK....In my experience it is the opposite.

I have also never come across any mountains / desert to negotiate in the UK......

For hour building the USA does look attractive, even though they have an Idiot in power over there. The aircraft rates are cheap, the dollar is weak compared to the pound, transatlantic flights are cheap, and cost of living is cheap.......

South Africa is a beautiful country, with fantastic scenery and beaches. I would like to fly there, but unfortunately I'd have to take a PPL flight test to be able to.

Canada would be brilliant. Not sure on the rates, or whether they would accept a foreign PPL without a flight test, but it would be great fun. My plan would be to rent an N reg in the USA, then cross the boarder and fly around Canada.....

Good luck!

[YYZ]

If you want to fly from Canada you do not have to take any exams or medicals, just your standard proficiency check & you need to obtain a bit of paper to put in with your license to prove you hold all the necessary documents, this only costs $45 from Transport Canada & takes about 15 mins to issue & valid for 12 months, A bargain!

I have been looking at hiring rates there and they are more expensive than the USA, But like everyone is saying, I think you can gain allot more practical experience there?

Enjoy
YYZ

[aerosteve]

Nags teeth!

Thought i would offer my advice to pile! hour building was for me one of my best experiences of flying yet! I just returned from my last hour building session (well 2 months ago) which was in new zealand. i spent the winter there (june- october) flying out of wanaka in c172's and 177's and found the experience unbelievable. there is nothing like an early morning flight around mt aspiring (10,000 ft) or flying to queenstown for lunch through the mountains. also the cost there are pretty cheap, i think i paid about $120 nz per hour in the 172, and the staff and airfield were excellent. check them out at www.nz-flights.com
very relaxed flying, great views and very different attitude from the uk.

Before that i was in melbourne, australia with the royal victoria aero club, who are another great outfit. they have one of the most extensive fleets i have seen and offered me one of the 150's for about £40 an hour block time. there were very helpful and i got my retract cert there in a turbo arrow (an experience on its own) check them at www.rvac.com.au
Again i would recomend them, all the instructors were great, spots to go are amazing from dirt strips to moorabin (where they are based) which is one of the busiest GA fields in the southern hemi. parrallel runways, busy airspace and challenging conditions from hot and humid weather to crazy wind changes.

prior to that i did some flying with calgary flying club who were also excellent, so i would recomend them too.

my view was to enjoy the flying, get as much experience as possible and use the time before further training wisely! and i dont just mean experience, but do some other activities that you enjoy before committing to a life of work! I was snowboarding and surfing in my spare time, as well as working like a slave to pay for it all.

hope this helps. most of all enjoy.
cheers..

ps. any questions drop me a line..

[FlyingForFun]

VisaGeeza - I only learnt to handle a cross-wind in the US, having always managed in the UK without really understanding what I was doing. There are good schools out there, and there are bad schools, just the same as there are here, or anywhere else. Besides which, all Nags wants to do is hour-building, so the standard of instruction is probably not very relevant to the thread in any case.

FFF
-----------------

[VisaGeeza]

FFFso the standard of instruction is probably not very relevant to the thread in any case. Especially as I didn't even mention it!!!!!:confused: :confused: :confused:

[willby]

i would say the States are great for PPL because the hours are cheap but if you want to become a professional pilot stay in the Uk

[QUOTE]Pilots trained in the US tend not to get a grasp on strong crosswind landings

Well try flying over In Florida during hurricane season .

Although this gave me a bit of a laugh I reckon its about the most stupid ive ever read on pprune ..

[Nags Teeth]

Cheers everyone, thank you very much for the advice, you have all given me something to think about anyway.

I like the idea of Canada, it's not somewhere I had thought about.

I am going to look also at California too, if anyone knows of any good places to hire an aeroplane in either.

Thanks once again..

Nags Teeth

[englishal]

www.californiaflightcenter.com

You can select from a range of exceedingly well equipped aircraft in excellent condition (some new).........I'd go for the OMF Symphony 160 if hour building with style; cheap, fun, 2002, fast, economic, comfortable for two 6' people with overnight baggage...

Can't wait for their TwinStar ;)

[englishal]

Show me a mountain in the UK? If you are refering to those <6000' hills, then you haven't seen a proper mountain :E

Cheers:D

[FlyingForFun]

VisaGeeza, apologies - I meant to direct that comment to HandspringGuy, not to you.... :\

FFF
---------------

[Flyboy1980]

I am in a similar possition to Nags. Have my PPL with about 35 hours solo and need to hour build before going Modular for my CPL/IR, ME etc. However I have seen different figures quoted on what I will actually require to commence this training. Some say 70hrs PIC, others say 100hrs and one even said 150hrs PIC. Is this figure generated by the flying schools for their own reasons, or is there a specific legal requirement. And if so does anyone know exactly what it might be?

Many Thanks
FLy

PS: I drove past a huge windfarm in CA once, do you think someone should tell them that there is no wind in the USA????

:D

[BEagle]

From LASORS 2005:
"The holder of a PPL(A) issued in accordance with ICAO
Annex 1, with at least 150 hours flight time as a pilot,
may commence an approved JAR CPL(A) Modular
Course consisting of 25 hours dual flight instruction
including 10 hours of instrument instruction (up to 5
hours may be instrument ground time in a FNPT I or II
or a flight simulator). At least 5 hours of the flight
instruction shall be carried out in a complex aeroplane
(certificated for the carriage of at least four persons and
have a variable pitch propeller and retractable landing
gear)."

That's to start a modular CPL course. But by the time you finish and apply for the licence itself, you must have achieved (amongst other things) at least 100 hours as Pilot-in-Command.

[karanou]

I am looking to build twin hours, after running a search on PPRUNE and contacting a number of places in US, and due to the fact I dont have the benefit of a load of twin hours in my log book I am getting the feeling that for pilots in my position there is no way of building these hours for a sensible cost

Can anyone make any suggestions regarding the best approach to building twin hours, (if possible without a 'safety pilot'!!!) or is the only alternative either to win the lottery or use a big gun to negotiate at the local financial institution???

..... Info on any part shares also of interest

Many thanks

[flighttime2.0]

hi karanou

To give you an idea ! At Naples air center in florida the seminol will set you back $160 per hour but you must have at least 25 hours loged on twins before they will lease it out to you .
I do know of one guy who had a deal with a privately owned senica 3 in west palm beach for $70 per hour wet ..

[Desert Budgie]

karanou,

i went to ari ben aviator in ft pierce and did a bunch of time there. i generally had a good experience there. ft pierce is a bit of a hole, but the planes were alright and i did 200 hours in 8 weeks. they have about 10 or 11 dutchesses, kitted out alright, hsi, a couple with gps, weather radar etc.

however there is a catch. it is SHARED time building. this means that for the published $7000 i think for 100 hours, you only spend about 50 actually at the controls. the other 50 you are safety pilot and a required crew member as the guy flying is under simulated instrument. in the US according to the FARs, this is perfectly good loggable PIC time. however check the lasors before committing yourself to it. i hold the faa licences and for what i needed the shared time was fine.

as far as the flying goes, they pair u up with another pilot, and generally u get the plane from 6pm to 6am. all nite flying, all cross country, all ifr. and u can shoot as many holds and approaches as you want all nite.

now its by no means the best school in the world, and to be honest, i had the odd problem but generally it was cvery good for what i needed. im sure other folk will reply with very similar views as myself. and remember, EFT (european flight training) uses the same school and leases ari ben aircraft. the same aircraft as the hour builders use. they have a pretty good rep so that might also be something to go on.

if u have any questions, pm.

cheers

DB:ok:

sorry, and the website is www.aribenaviator.com

DB :ok:

[Flying surfer]

I personally woudl give them a miss, ask aorund on any Us forum and there are loads of stories of how they have cheated people and Mike (the owner) last i heard was being investigated by the FAA. check out www.ilsapproach.com and see what comes up about ari ben

[Flying surfer]

If you are going to the US and looking at hiring in CA then try www.airdesertpacific.com they use only Piper a/c but have a good fleet, a bit old but thats normal and flying in and around CA is great with lots of places to go and see. I've been twice and thoroughly enjoyed myself on both occasions. I have also flown in FL and S.Africa, in fact I am looking at going to S.Afrcia in Sep/Oct and looking for a flying partner if anyone is up for this trip?

[nosewheelfirst]

I'm off to Canada later next month to do 25hrs. Its cheap, the people seem friendly and the licence conversion is easy. I don't have to give them a copy of my thumb. I let you know how I get on.

Regards

[Fellow Aviator]

I'm thinking of going to Florida to do some hour building. Which should I do, fly MEP or SEP? I have about 6000 euros to use for aircraft rental. Shoud I fly less twin or a little bit of more single engine?

[karanou]

Pm me if you have any success finding a suitable MEP hire arrangement

Cheers K

[AndyDRHuddleston]

I can't speak for all schools in florida, but I know that the one I am at (NAC) have an insurance restriction, stopping anyone renting the seminole without 200 hrs TT. This can be waivered slightly if you have done most of your hours here.

Andy

[Fellow Aviator]

Thanks Andy for your info about NAC.

I'm going to Florida to meet relatives, and at the same to do a bit of flying while there. My total time 230h with 140 PIC (I have JAR CPL/ME/IR). Question is: Should I fly 50 hours in a twin or 100 hours in a single for the same price? Which option makes me more attractable to airlines, or does it even matter? Any opinions?

[oapilot]

A Training Captain and Recruiter once said to me if you have less than a thousand hours, there's no real difference between someone with 200 hours and 800 from a selection point of view. However, bear in mind that a twin ups the workload so might just make you that bit sharper in the sim should the chance arise in the nearish future.
Whichever you decide on, enjoy it!
oap

[Flying surfer]

I would say do 100 hours in a single at least that gives you more total time which is the first thing an employer is going to look at before they even starts looking at how it is broken down.

Enjoy it and try to get up Georgia there are loads of nice airfields up there to visit. I was there this time last year. The flying is more challenging up north (out side of Florida).

[Flying surfer]

I will look forward in finding out how the trip to Canada went. What the overall costs are etc.

I don't care too much about the thump print as I have nothing to hide and i'm not a criminal.

Enjoy it

[Capt. Manuvar]

Harvsair Steinbach, MB just SE of winnipeg is a very good school for hour building. I did my ICAO CPL Multi-IFR there. I've not Met anyone who wasn't satisfied with the service they offer. Try www.harvsair.com. They have a lot of Intl students. Very friendly professional outfit, talk to Adam the Ops manager he'll tell you all you need to know

[Fellow Aviator]

Thanks for your opinions guys! I talked with a airline capt. and his opinion was that total time is more important in this stage, than to gather up multi-engine time. I'll definitely head out of FL. to see the east coast.

Cheers,
FA

[ABO944]

Dear Mr Nags Teeth ...

I did my hours building in Portugal !

Cheap rates (£40/hour wet). The place I went to, just north of Lisbon had about 4 C152's, a C172, a Piper Cub and even a Cherokee Six !

I managed to do about 50 hours in around 10 days!

I will be going back there later this year for more!

I believe they are planning to build acommodation at the aerodrome, so people that wish to do hours building can stay there too ... for 5 Euros a night! Not too shabby!

Great Flying, Lots of Navaids you can practice tracking to/from. Lovely scenery, and of course, great weather!

I did mine at the end of last summer, and although they tend to get a lot of fog in the mornings at this time of year, the afternoons are cracking!

When you sum up the costs of going to the States, you really dont spend much more, if any, by staying in Europe!

ATC is great too .... Portuguese Military, and the English is spot on!

I recommend them to anyone ......

Anyone for details, just email or PM me !

ABO

[dann1405]

www.flighttraining.org
Nothing wrong with hours building in the US at all- as mentioned there are some very challenging areas- but you will probably gain more from a stint in Canada

[shortstripper]

If you can cope with the hassle of buying and selling, why not think about buying a cheapo single seat PFA type (Luton Minor, Taylor Mono ect) and literally flying the pants off it! You can buy something quite decent for around £5K, and sell for a similar amount next year to help pay for your CPL course. If you manage a couple of hundred hours you will find each hour probably only cost £20!!! I have a friend who did something similar and flew 700 hrs over 12 months!

SS :ok:

[gazman21]

hi
anybody out there like to throw a few ideas at cheap hour building options in europe?any types at all from rental to 'free work' doing parachute drops or the like!

[FLYbyWIT]

Hubair in belgium,It use to say 40euro per hr according to there the website. Just give them call in case this changed.

[quifflegend]

Can anyone suggest any good places in the USA to complete some hour building. I know places like Ormond offer free housing, are there any other schools like this? any help would be great, thanks. Basically just looking to do 50 hours on the cheap and do abit of touring. Thanks

[snake80]

I woul like buy a time building programme on A320 (500 Hours). The only way that i found on web to get it is by Eaglejet. Anyone knows any other company or flight school that provides it?? thanks for your help!!!!!

[Foz2]

You want to build 500 hours on an A320 at your own expense??!! :ooh:

You could try Astraeus (Bond). Not sure if they do A320 line flying, maybe just Boeing?

www.flyastraeus.com

[snake80]

no, astraeus only B737. For me will be good also a time building in far east

[mike halls]

hi quifflegend,

check out www.aussie-air.com
they have good rates for hour building

safe flying all

mike

[Charlie Zulu]

If you want cheap try Air Desert Pacific based at KPOC in California (L.A. Basin). I've used them twice and can't fault them. The aircraft are an all Piper fleet, they are quite used but a couple of the Archers (N2925Q particularly) are quite nice.

http://www.airdesertpacific.com/

[ppl.africa]

Hi,

not the states, but South Africa as secret for hour-building.

I've done my PPL with www.th-aviation-conneXions.com , close to world-famous Kruger Park.

The rates for hour-building are negotiable, I fly the Tecnam for 590 Rand, approx. 95 US-$, not that cheap as in the US. But the experience to fly in the bush, approach and land difficult bush strips are unique....

Depending on the hour-package you may get more attractive rates.

Clear sky!

[BritPilot777]

Hi There,

I do my Multi Hour building at Orlando Flight Training in Orlando (name gives it away huh) FlyOFT (http://www.flyoft.com)

Moheet

[flighttime2.0]

I've used them twice and can't fault them !

Charlie zulu Im curious , you have been hour building twice but mentioned on a different tread that your about to start an atpl groundschool in Naples . Why would you be hour building twice and not even completed an atpl course ? seems like your jumping the gun there a bit as the hour building usually come after the atpl's to build the hours requirement for the cpl .

Flighttime

[Just another student]

As some of you will know, I was off at ADP in late January and most of February. I had planned to build 54 hours but in reality (due to severe weather) only managed to acquire 25. However I did experience conditions out there which will have made me a better Pilot, one who is even more respectful of 11,000ft Mountains ;)

My situation is that I need to fly around 45 more hours before I can start my CPL training.I am looking at booking a CPL/MEP/IR at Aeros, the course would be starting in late June.Just as a side line lol is Aeros a good choice?

My question really relates to what would be the most advisable form of action to take. I want to really stay here (the UK) and try and complete these hours. I have little UK air time and could do with the experience! However with the weather as it is, maybe it would be best to get away somewhere and fly 30hrs or so?

Money is not such an issue, I have my US verification etc I would be willing to go down under etc any options suggested would be appreciated!

Cheers guys and gals

[Captain101]

I was in a similar position last year, I needed to accumilate 60hrs before early June to start at a different EGBJ training provider.
My advice - if money is not an issue you would be mad not to do it in the UK - get experiece of british airspace, get to know the area and airspace where you will be taking your CPL it will give you a huge advantage for the course. Although the weather is crap there is rarely a day when you cannot do any flying at all and the experience of the conditions will make you a better pilot.
I managed 60hrs in 2 months comfortably. (April & May '04).
I also recommend a structured hours building programme if you can find one. If not, flying from a school that also does CPL training is a good idea - on those marginal days when I was undecided on flying, it was often a CPL instructor gave me a firm kick up the rear and said get on with it! (There is no better way of practicing diversions than doing it for real!).

BTW In my opinion Aeros is a very good choice of schools.

Good luck

101

[Just another student]

Cheers 101, that's the feeling I have as well, I currently fly out of EGNX and its a 45 mile round trip sometimes just to fly 1hr.The weather can change so much between where I live and the airport. They do not offer CPL or IR which is a shame as the IMC training was top notch.

As for my UK time, which is mostly instrument work, I haven't even landed at an away field! :) The closest I came was to making some go around's on a NDB approach into Leicester. I am still some what nervous about flying in the UK, but that is down to lack of practical experience.

I could do with building some hours at Gloucester perhaps before the CPL? Might be an idea :D

When it comes down to money, It is certainly not endless, but I want to pay for the best I can afford. If UK flying will help me more, UK it is, if you see what I mean.

I know what you mean about Instructors kicking you up the back side to get you up there. However we were dealing with sigmets where I was so I was VERY apprehensive.One day an instructor said that I should do a long x-country and advised that the weather would be fine.I stayed local and it was a good job because it turned IFR within the space of a few minutes lol !

Cheers

[Nice flaps]

Echo the words of the Captain. In light of what you have said you should definitely spend every one of those hours flying in the UK. Not only that but spend every one of them flying to other airfields. Bear these words in mind: constructive hour building.
NF

[FliegerTiger]

I can vouch for Aeros, have done the majority of my hours-building with them (worth asking if their Cherokee is available, very reasonable rates for block hours), and an IMC course. Top-notch instruction and a friendly atmosphere there.


FT

[BEagle]

Do the CPL qualifying Q X-C as part of your pre-course hours building! There's no reason why you shouldn't. Also, if you haven't done so already, get your Night Qualification sorted before the days get any longer!

Aeros has an excellent reputation.

[Just another student]

Thanks.

BEagle, I already have a night rating and completed my CPL X-country in America. It was just over 400nm if I remember rightly.

Nice Flaps, I've tried to be constructive with my hours so far.Flying in different environments etc anyone who has flown in and around the LA basin will vouch for that lol

Tiger, I'm going down to Aeros today so will ask about block hours.

Thanks for the advice

[BEagle]

Just did some number-crunching. If 30 hours incl. all dual checks, landing fees etc on an IFR (non-airways) PA28-140 comes out to over £2600, I'd be most interested to know....

[buzzc152]

Have you thought about buying a share ? I know of one in which 30 hours would cost appx £1050 (not inc the share price which you'd get back when you sell anyway).

PM if you want to know more.

[Just another student]

Well, I visited Aeros today and was most impressed.Was shown round the aircraft, had a go on the FNTP, managed to land it lol All my questions were answered thoroughly, the people were very friendly and obviously know what they are doing.I ended up later on (after the visit) booking up for CPL,MEP and MEP IR. They can also make me a deal on hour building which is useful.I think I have made a sound choice. My course start date is June 27th, so I have to get cracking with those hours. Any thoughts? :D


buzz, to be honest I did look at that option, but i'm afraid time is not on my side as my course start date is 27th June and many shares etc are not open to short time hour builders.Thanks for the input.

Cheers

[Chintito]

im all set for starting the CPL next month and would like some suggestions of what i can do to prepare for the course.
3 hours in the 20 hours of flying i need ive been honing my stalls and steep turns.
I would like to get as much practice as possible for course related skills practice so would like some suggestions from you folks out there who've been there and done that.

many thanks

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

Check out this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=127374) I listed the format of the test. May be an idea to practice some of this stuff.

All the best.

[HappyPilot]

Hey Chintito,

check your pm's

HP

[Just another student]

Right, as I mentioned above i'm now booked up for June 27th for CPL/IR etc Before then I need to fly between 45 and 62 hours.If I reach 62 I would only have to do a 50hr IR which would be a bonus (I would have 200 TT with 100 PIC).

The Aeros cherokee which is an hour builder is fully booked for weeks, which removes that as an option for now. I will have to look at this option in a few weeks time.

However I need hours and fast, so I'm obviously looking at America. I have a brand spanking new Airman certificate (plastic card like a credit card lol ), however I need somewhere to fly!

California is my first choice, should be good weather and I could fly the routes I didn't manage to complete in Feb.

But which schools are going to be safe (fleet wise) and are not going to rip me off? ADP were good, very honest and professional but ideally I'd like to go elsewhere. I would need to book ASAP, any help would be appreciated!

Is Australia a viable option? Canada is very expensive to fly to so I have virtually ruled out 'my second home.'

Cheers

JAS

[Just another student]

Any information on Anglo American at San diego? I have looked in the search engine and most of the topics are quite old. I appreciate that there was some ill feeling between PPrune and AAA, (and rightly so) but have these issues etc been resolved? What is there reputation like now?

Anybody with recent experince at AAA it would be great to hear your views.

I really just need a safe aircraft to fly solidly for 3 weeks. I don't mind paying a bit extra for a more reliable bird. The last time I went state side, I did have a few tech problems which cost me time and flying hours.

Thanks

JAS

[bigjarv]

Hey Happy Pilot and Chinchito. Is there any chance you could share any info with me. Would love some advice on productive hour building.

[FougaMagister]

Wherever you do your pre-CPL hour building, remember to do it THE HARD WAY, i.e. do the VFR navs sticking to the CPL margins, with VFR dead-reckoning, a proper log, some general handling, practicing glide approaches, PFLs (remembering the 500 ft rule), flapless approaches, some radio-nav fixes during the VFR legs, etc. These are all part of the CPL skills test, and practicing beforehand will give you a decent head start.

I had about 25 hours to do while waiting for my ATPL results and before starting CPL, so I went back to France, signed up with a local flying club, got checked out and did quite a few VFR navs there.

A good idea also is to try to do your hour building in a similar a/c to the one you'll be using on the non-complex part of the CPL course - for instance a PA-28 if you'll be using a Warrior, so you'll have a seamless transition.

Enjoy the CPL :ok:

[Just another student]

FougaMagister, very sound advice. I am only looking at renting PA28's as I will be completing my training on an all Piper fleet. I try and make my hour building as structured as possible always with the CPL in mind. With any luck I will fly around 20hrs at Aeros in a PA28 prior to CPL start. During that time I will cover many of their structured routes etc and will have an instructor with me from time to time to keep me in check!

I need a PA28 and quick :)

How about Chandler Air Service?

Cheers

JAS

[Send Clowns]

Just Another Student

Check up on the requirements, but I believe you can do the 50-hour IR as long as you have passed the CPL, I certainly did before CPL issue. You presumably then don't need the 200 hours pre-IR, and only need 45 hours.

If you can get down to Bournemouth very I may be able to get you some cheap hour building.

[Just another student]

Send Clowns

I'm just going on what Aeros have told me, however I'll have a look in the Lasors.

If you could PM me regarding the hour building that would be great.I am looking at most options other than the PFA and aircraft share route.

Cheers

JAS

[six-sixty]

I didn't really consciously hour build as such, as before I decided to pursue the CPL/IR etc I'd just been racking up lots of "useless" (but great fun) hours flying lazy aeros.

So the CPL was actually a bit of a shock to the system!

My advice would be spend less time on the GH and more on nav. On the GH it's going to be better to have an instructor tell you if you're doing it right rather than you reinforce what might be bad habits on your own with noone telling you otherwise. There's plenty of time on the course to sort all that out.

On the nav side, try and fly vaguely test profile type routes, that is, a 50nm or so route to a small-ish town, followed by a diversion. Ok, it's difficult to "surprise" yourself, but I suppose it's feasible, that after finding your original destination, pick another place to find and start getting used to planning the diversion on the hoof, that is drift, groundspeed, eta, check the route for airspace, danger areas, etc. Try and fly through at least a MATZ or some perhaps some class D, and be disciplined about making sure you're always speaking to someone for a FIS wherever possible. Get very slick at RT! It really needs to be second nature.

Hope this helps, SS

[What's a Girdler]

Clowns, I'm doing the ATPLs with BCFT at the mo, DL of coarse, I understand you work for them, can you get me some cheap hours building?? :) I'm spending £135 p/hr on AA5As at a well known school at Blackbushe and it's tough going!!

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

I would practice everything, SS, every instructor is different, and if you are particularly weak on one area, personally I would practice that. Maybe take a safety pilot with you, maybe someone with a commercial licence, who can give you good advice.

Maybe they could introduce you to the things that will be new to you, like instrument flying, partial panel, timed turns and stuff like that. Agree with SS on the NAV, get slick with RT, and channel those VFR skills. Push yourself on cross country flights, it will make it all the more easier when it comes to the course.

[flyingdogguitar]

Hello everyone,
does anyone know what sort of hour building rates can be found in the south Essex area?


Many Thanks

Dave C

[topcat450]

Well i can't help on actual rates, however do look at the PFA. I'm clonking up ours for the miserly rate of £25 per hour by buying a share in a PFA machine which will hopefully be sell-able in 12 months, if I give it away in a year or two... it was still cheaper than renting at £100 an hour.

[Foz2]

Give Stapleford Flight Centre a call. They will give you £65 per hour on a 152 if you put a bit of money up front. Dont know if they still offer that rate but they were late last year.

Good place to hour build as they have so many 152s (15-20 i think) you would always have an aircraft available.

Foz

[2close]

Does anyone out there at the sharp end have any up to the minute info on Ari Ben, in particular the 200 hour Multi-Course (+20 SEP) with all FAA Ratings.

It all sounds very good but I'm having a bit of trouble getting detailed information from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

I'd appreciate any feedback from current students, at Ari Ben or possibly EFT.

Please feel free to PM - all info gratefully received.

Cheers,

2close

[ATP_Al]

Alternatively you could look for a job that would allow you to build multi engine time. You have to know where to look but there are opportunities in parachute dropping, traffic reporting, aerial photography etc in the UK. And yes, some companies will consider you with the bare minimum twin hours as well!

Don't pay for anything unless you have exhausted every possibility of doing it at someone else's expense!!

Al

[Piltdown Man]

I totally agree. Most UK operators have to take people with very few twin hours because most other people can't afford them either.

[speedbird001]

Hi All,

Does anyone know of any FTOs that do Hour Building at a discounted rate in the UK ?

As it's difficult for me to get time off work, there would be little or no chance of me going to the states to get it done :(

Anyones else got this kind of issue ?


Cheers

SB001

[craig1975]

I contacted Multiflight at leeds bradford and I think (dont quote) 80hrs worked out at about £5,500 (ish).

The other thing is try somewhere like the Thorp group at Liverpool airport and the other good one is BCT at Kemble

Hope that helps

[richc]

Shobdon do a PPL Syndicate (£20 per month) which will get you a C152 for £63/hr and a PA28 Archer for £85/hr which is pretty reasonable...Also gives you good practice at short field departures and arrivals (800m runway!).

RichC

[speedbird001]

Cheers guys,

looks like i'm going to have to go on the sick for a month :D


SB001

[Foz2]

Stapleford offer a good rate on their large fleet of C152s (£65) if you put some money up front. You could try and lease a C152 or tomahawk or similar. They are quite hard to find but there are are some about. Rough price guide would be about £30- £35 per hour - you would pay fuel, parking, landing fees etc. Worth a thought.

800m of tarmac - short?!!! Not really. Shobdon is very nice though.

Foz.

[FlyingForFun]

Cheapest way is to buy a share in an aircraft. Have a look in the PFA magazine, or on the notice board in your local airfield. A 1/8th or 1/10th share in a small aircraft won't cost you a fortune. The flying, if you pick the right type of aircraft, will be about as cheap as it's possible to get (I used to pay around £30/hour in a 2-seat 120kt turbo-charged aircraft with retractable gear and a variable-pitch prop, for example). And once you've finished your hour-building, you can sell the share to get back most of your initial outlay - unless you get so hooked on your plane you don't want to sell, of course!

FFF
-------------

[speedbird001]

Cheers guys,

Some nice ideas, anyone know of any good price shares in the North West ? pref Blackpool ?

SB001

[wbryce]

contact leading edge at Cumbernauld, Scotland, they have some very good offers on there aircraft at present. Contact me if you want there contact details.

Can't beat the scottish scenery! :)

[FlyingForFun]

Speedbird,

There are a few flying clubs at Blackpool, best thing to do is pop into each of them and see if there are any shares going. I don't know of any right now - if you'd asked me a month or two ago I knew of a new C152 group which was forming, but that group is full now.

You could also try Barton. I don't know Barton, but I get the impression it's more of a club environment than Blackpool, so you're more likely to find shares there - especially shares in interesting (and therefore often cheap) aircraft.

FFF
--------------

[Haavard]

Hello.. i have my FAA instrument commercial on a multi engine.
Now i am concidering to buy some king air hours.
Eaglejet are the only one i know how does this. Any one with recomandations on other companys doing this?

Price range $20 000,-
Anyone who actually have done this with eagle? i am not interested in answears from ppl who know someone who know someone who bla bla... :)

Viking 2000.

[mike halls]

hello,

check out www.aussie-air.com

they have a few king airs

mike

[sharksucker]

You might try as well
www.alpine-air.com/fo/
Not sure, if they currently do it for non US-citizen, used to do so before August 2004...
pretty good and quite a bit cheaper then eagle..

cheers

edit: no King Airs, but 99s and 1900s...

[Farrell]

the whole payment up front - no credit cards thing makes me nervous with alpine and aussie

[sharksucker]

Farrell:
You always may talk to the management and negotiate about this (Alpine)...
Did not pay all up in front...
Regards...

[ds121]

Hello, i have a few questions.
on average, how long does it take a pilot from getting there ppl to landing a job with as a FO with with an airline? ie. southwest, westjet, delta.

Also, how do pilots build time? it seems even small airlines require atleast 1500, accordding to my calculations, attaining that number would cost 100,000? (~$100/h in a 152?)

thanks in advance for answering my questions.

[youngskywalker]

Plenty ways to build flight time without forking out 100,000!

Most will go down the instructor route, some will do flying sky divers, banner towing, crop spraying, glider towing etc...

Some take many years slogging away getting the commercial licence and ratings and building good quality flight time and experience while others will pay out huge amounts of cash to go to the school with the best reputation for getting pilots hired with an airline with minimum hours. Depends on your own situation, I guess their are many ways to accomplish the goal, no right or wrong way as long as you eventually make it one way or another.

In many ways it depends on luck, being in the right place at the right time, make as many good friends in aviation as possible and sonner or later you wil get a job.

Just my 2pence worth anyway.

ys

[coolcaptain]

For the love of god (allah, whatever) please, people do not pay someone to fly a clapped out 99 full of rubber dogpile around.

How low are we going to stoop?

[spaceman1000]

go ahead my dear friend,
pay all you can.We need guys like you to keep planes flying!:}

cool captain, please keep you mouth shut.he doesnt know the truth! let him dream!

[Blueskyrich]

Hello everyone,

Hope someone out there can offer some advice on some hour building I'm looking to do. I've tried to use the search function, but it's playing sill buggers so here goes..

I've got to get some hours in and I'm looking to do it sometime in October/November. Obviously, the US is a prime candidate but I was wondering if anyone else can suggest a location (other than the US, Canada or South Africa) where I may be able to get a decent hire rate, spot of good weather and dare I say it, maybe somewhere I can get a couple of days relaxation in.

Was originally thinking of heading to Las Vegas (granted, it'll be quite cool then) but I soon realised I'd blow the cash before getting to the airfield...

So, what do you think?

Bluesky

[FlyingForFun]

Lots of GA in Oz, not sure if the flights over there would mean the cost would be high. Also heard some good things about some parts of South America for hour-building a few years ago, but can't remember the details. No personal experience of either of these places, though.

FFF
---------------

[FougaMagister]

Unusual hour building? Well, then, you might consider France or Spain. The plus? No visa needed, all JAA i.e. no conversion required, just a basic check flight like you would get in your friendly UK aeroclub, and off you go!

Hour rates are also around 25% lower than in Britain, so you can plan the odd long navigation without breaking the bank.

I only have first-hand experience of hour building in France, and there is a lot in common with the easygoing yet professionnal attitude to flying you find Stateside. Very few airfields have landing fees (owned as they usually are by town/city councils), there are often bars/retaurants on site, and language-wise, you only really need to speak French if you fly to an uncontrolled airfield, or to a controlled airfield outside HJ. French ATC is quite good at English, and so is French MIL ATC when you need clearance through MIL-R areas (there are quite a few).

I used a PA-28-160 for 107 Euros/hr wet (that's just under £67), or a PA-28-181 with the full kit for 122 Euros (about £80). The club also had 2 Robin DR400 that went at 90 Euros/hr wet (£60). These prices are pretty much standard. The only downside as far as I am concerned is that the joining fees are higher, usually around 200 Euros for the yearly membership (£120), but obviously that depends on the club and with the lower hourly rates, it gets interesting the more you fly.

Regarding Spain, a search will help you find more info. I only know that hour building prices are also about 25% lower than Britain, and you do get lots of VFR days even in autumn!

Hope that helps

Cheers :cool:

[Piltdown Man]

I can personally recommend Oz. You can get hold of interesting types that are well maintained as reasonable rates. The quality of instruction is also excellent and there are plenty of interesting places to go. My experience is hiring from Royal Aero Club of Western Australia and of the school I went to, also at Jandakot (since gone bust).

[whiskey1]

Oz is a good place to hours build, take an aircraft away. Have a great holiday and gain valuable experience. Can recommendminovation (http://www.cosmic.com.au/minovation/default.htm) at Jandakot just south of Perth.

Good outfit, Run by an Ex Jersey girl so knows about European Operations and what you need. Did my BFR there last year after the Aeroclub cancelled on me at the last moment. On time and on budget.

Lots of places to visit depending on how many hours you need. Happy to let you take the aircraft away too.

PM me if you need suggested places to visit.

W1

[apoball]

I know you mentioned Canada in your post but have you had a look at some of the schools over there?

Provided I pass my ATPLs in the first week of September then I'm planning on going out to Moncton (New Brunswick) to build up the mandatory 150 hours P1 before starting the CPL course.

Prices are, I believe, around the £60ph mark; they have a fleet of new Diamond Eclipse a/c; you have the option of other courses e.g. float plane; the school is JAA approved; all airfields are municipal so have no landing fees; and the sky isn't too busy out there. The only downside is the weather which won't be as good as that in Florida, but if you want genuine flying experience then, I suppose, Canada is more realistic. I'm also told that they struggle to get JAA examiners, but that's neither here nor there if you're only intending to hour-build. Oh yes, and the cost of living is very low too.

Note: I haven't actually flown at this school so this post may be less reliable than those from people with first hand experience.

Best of luck where ever you go!

APO

[nick14]

hey there all,
Anyone know of any fto's or clubs that will rent twins to PPL's for hours building in UK or abroard.

With not too many time minima!

thanks
nick
buckle up

[IRISHPILOT]

FTO Bemoair, an hour south of Prague. they will rent a Morava for EUR210 (MAYBE less if you take many hours), landing fee EUR0.40, beers EUR0.90

Don't know hours minima, but usually just a checkout. They are flexible.

I have no affiliation with them, just a happy customer.

cheers, IP

[bellyfluffer]

hey there

like most im going to have to a hundred or so hours-building and i was wondering what unusual (but still realistic!) suggestions people might have?

florida is the obvious one and rightly so at the prices ive seen!
now ive found a school in thailand and phillipines at same prices, so anyone with experiances or suggestions about these or others 'please' let me know!!

im really excited about making it an experiance/adventure to remember!!!

thanks in advance:ok:

[Hobgoblin]

Hi Bellyfluffer!

Sounds like we're in the same situation as I also have to do about 100 hrs hourbuilding. Am currently looking at going to South Africa but don't know how it would compare with Florida.

I've found in the past the aeroplanes to be in good condition and the flightschools good (mostly!). PM me if you like.

[wbryce]

Go have fun!

It will be the only time in your flying training you will be able to do what you want!

Make the time useful so you become a better pilot for your CPL! i.e. whats the point of buying 100hrs in america to just fly around one place?

Buy 25 hours in america and do a trip...come home do a trip in the UK, do your IMC...fly to france...i.e. have fun and learn at the same time!

[Leezyjet]

Hobgoblin,

South Africa is a great place to fly. Really helps you fine tune your dead reckoning nav skills too - some pretty remote places out there.

Weather is always interesting too, not always endless sunshine like Florida. Also some high altitude airfields to ensure your up to scratch with the performance calculations !!.

I think you will find S.A. a bit more challenging than Florida as well from what I have heard.

Try www.algoafc.co.za based in Port Elizabeth. I did my PPL there and going back to bash some hours in later this year - when it's summer there !!

:)

[FlyingForFun]

As well as interesting places to fly, don't rule out interesting aircraft or training. For example, now is the time to do that tail-dragger conversion, float-plane rating, aerobatics course, or close formation flying course. (I've done the first three of these, and recommend all of them. Haven't done close formation flying yet, but would love to one day.)

FFF
--------------

[geraldn]

bellyfluffer ,i did my hb in chandler arizona
and i would do it over again,it has great weather although hot at times (but who cares when u are at 10000 ft),a variety of close places to go and do overnights like vegas,lake havasu etc and most importantly a good school who also do aerobatic training and tail draggers.

their website is www.aerobatics.com

good luck

[Turkish777]

Avion in Sanford, Florida rent the C-172 at $70.00 per hour if you buy atleast 25 hours. You can keep the plane overnight too aslong as you do atleast 3 hrs a day on the hobbs...

$70.00 @ $1.80 = 39.00 pounds per hour....not bad...

And you could rent my spare room in Sanford for a reasonable price I suppose...if its vacant...lots of mates over here visiting this time of year..

[VisaGeeza]

Florida is for flight training and a refuge from theBritish winter weather. I really wouldn't even consider hour building in Florida past the first few hours post PPL. California is so much more interesting and offers so much more interesting and challenging flying. Florida is flat and at best uninteresting!

Try Air Desert Pacific at Bracket CA or Universal at El Monte CA. An altogether preferable experience.

[Turkish777]

Its alright for a bit of gator spotting....:}

[bellyfluffer]

cheers to everyone for the suggestions!

seems like most people go the usa way due to the obvious money saving factors, so that is near the top of my list for those reasons alone £££££££ !!!!

has no one out there had any experience of any far east/ s.e.asia?

cheers again

[Birky]

Dear readers

Not far from finishing my PPL at Stapleford (great school BTW)after which I'll be distance learning with BGS. Thinking about splitting my hour building for the CPL into three sections rather than doing it all at once:

1) 30+ hours in the US somewhere this November (cheap fuel, nice weather and experience of US flying) Then start my ATPL studies in December 2005.

2) 30+ hours in February 2006 in Africa somewhere (cheap fuel (?), interesting weather and terrain plus experience of bush flying) This would mean breaking into the ATPL studies for three weeks or so.

3) 30+ hours back in the UK at Stapleford in late August 2006 and after the ATPLs to get up to speed with UK procedures. Then start CPL/ME/IR course at Stapleford.

Firstly, can anyone see any glaring errors in this plan?

Secondly, where might you recommend in all these places? Cost of living, accommodation, airfares, local flora and fauna?

Thirdly, how would you best use the flying time experience-wise?

As always, many, many thanks for any replies...

Birky

[biminiflyer]

Birky
My advice woukld be go to USA and do the whole lot!

I was in your position couple of years ago same school etc.. and needed to do about 85 hrs PIC so went to San Diego to anglo american and eventually got the whole lot done in about 5 weeks,it was a bit of a push but the best flying/fun had ever!
Anglo owned by a couple of brits who like a laugh/beer make sure you get a good rate based on the total hours before you go.I did my hour building in Warrior/Arrow which helped when i came back to do the CPL in stapleford,perfect place to hour build sea/mountains/desert.Iwent off cross country for a week and half saw amazing amount of USA best flying i have ever done and wish i could do it again

Forget about Africa to many problems may be encountered!

You might want to leave 5 hrs ish to do when you get back to get back into uk procedures but no more as you have already done your ppl here and it will all flood back.

Oh yeah if going to USA start appling for visa NOW! as it takes for ever and you cant let anglo or whoever know when you are arriving until you have it.

Hope it works out for you,it did for me,now flying A320/321 SO KEEP AT IT!

regards,

biminiflyer:ok:

[Whirlygig]

I wouldn't say "forget about Africa" - I got some Jet Ranger time with NAC at Virginia in Durban. Fabulous little airport, just by the beach, great aero club, very high standard of instruction, well maintained aircraft - couldn't fault them!

Only thing with SA (and Durban is better than most SA cities) is the crime - you really have to be vigilant.

Cheers

Whirls

[FlyingForFun]

I think that's an excellent plan! I've always said that hour-building is the time to get a range of different experiences.....

In the US, I did my hour-building in Arizona, and can definitely recommend it as far as "local flora and fauna" is concerned, as well as recommending a very good school to rent from - Chandler Air Service (http://www.aerobatics.com). Contrary to what biminiflyer says, no Visa is needed if you are just hour-building - the Visa is only a requirement if you are undergoing training. But you will need to get the ball rolling with regards to getting an FAA license - you'll need to pay the CAA a nominal amount for their efforts in confirming to the FAA that you do have a license. (The FAA don't make any charge for their efforts, though...)

No idea about Africa - I've heard some very good things, so long as you stay in the right parts of town, but no first-hand experience. But if you're planning on splitting the ATPLs, try to do the hour-building in between modules, immediately after the first set of exams.

Again, I'm going to disagree with biminiflyer on the last part of your hour-building - 5 hours is not enough. You won't need that much time to get back into the UK way of doing things, because as biminiflyer says, you've done your PPL over here. But you will need a little bit of time to get your general flying skills back up to the level where you are ready to start your CPL after a few months off. I think your plan is very sensible.

As for how to use your time, have a read of my CPL Diary (there's a link to it in the archive reference thread of this forum) to see what to expect for the CPL, then start brushing up on those things. Bear in mind, though, that the IMC requirements are much lower now than they were when I did my CPL, so concentrate on the VFR stuff.

Most importantly, though, have fun!

FFF
---------------

[EGAC_Ramper]

I'm just considering a number of places currently for 70hours of flying and stumped with all the decisions.Looking to go pretty soon.

Regards

[YYZ]

Agree with all the destinations above, but do not forget about Canada, real variation of terrain and weather in this country, easy to get the paperwork as well.

YYZ

[PSF2J]

Get as much experience as possible. That is what will make you a good pilot! Go for it, i wish i had gone to more places in my training.

[Send Clowns]

Good plan, but YYZ has an excellent point. I would advise not to do it all in the US, as so many students come back and struggle on CPL courses after doing so - it's cheaper to get yourself back into the habits of UK flying without paying a CPL instructor!

[Birky]

Thank you all for your input here and in my PMs. Much appreciated.

I'll take a close look at your suggestions and post up my final decision for the benefit of anyone else at my stage.

Regards

Birky

[birdlady]

Birky,

If your really interested in S.Africa may I recommend Algoa. I havent been there myself but have heard nothing but good reports about the place. Its on the coast so some nasty winds so will definately improve your cross wind landings. Port Elizabeth is a lovely place. Great beaches and lots of interesting places to fly to. As already mentioned, crime is bad but as long as your sensible you may not have a problem. Ive done both a JAA PPL and an SA PPL and have to say the standard for training is excellent. However, just like anywhere really, there are definately some dodgy operators out there. Be carefull who you choose and never pay cash up front - same as you wouldnt in the states or the UK. If you want more info check out this website. www.avcom.co.za :ok: :ok:

[FlyingForFun]

At some point in the future (but not just yet), I might want to do another 15 hours of so of hour-building on multi-engine pistons - with the aim of reaching the 30 hours P1 MEP which is required to begin the multi-engine instructor course.

Does anyone have any recommendations for cheap but reasonable condition twins, somewhere in the UK? Some de-icing would be good, since the hour-building is quite likely to be in the middle of winter. The twin I'm currently flying is extremely good, but not cheap, and the bank balance is really hurting from the 10 hours I've done on it already.

FFF
-------------

[portsharbourflyer]

There is a Seneca at Old Sarum which was at 180 solo an hour. Not sure if the price has changed recently. As cheap as it gets in the UK.

[Send Clowns]

I have to do some hour building IFR in a twin for a taxi job. I'm minimising the cost by flying to the Channel Islands and France a lot. £106 drawback on full tanks of a Duchess!

[FlyingForFun]

Ah - good thinking, SC. I might meet you there!!!

FFF
--------------

[TubularBells]

Hello all,

I've got to complete 20 hours of PIC so that I can send off for my blue plastic CPL\IR licence. Does anyone know where I can get an aircraft (single) either here in the UK or in Europe for under a hundred pounds? I'm looking to complete the hours in about 7-10 days.

All help greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

TB.:D

[charliegolf]

Cliff Day at Havarfordwest, £95 ish, no landing fees.

01267202292

Long way out, but for 20 hrs, he may let you relocate it for the week

CG

[GusHoneybun]

Tomahawk for 79 quid an hour.


01667 462226.

[UAV689]

do it on an SLMG, many clubs fly them for < 45 quid hr. U can do 25 hrs on one for a CPL issue

[TubularBells]

Thank you to you all so far, my phone book is getting bigger!

Has anyone done any hours building in Europe for a reasonable rate?

[MVE]

Old Sarum Seneca 1 solo rate for members is 196 including fuel surcharge of 12 pounds. Well equiped with G430 and new engines and props!

[First.officer]

TubularBells isn't really a CPL/IR - i've flown with him and know how awful he is in the air !! couldn't possibly have passed !! hehe !! :E - Only joking !!! couldn't resist posting my own little bit on your post JG !!
By the way, someone out there in the airline world better employ this guy fast, knows what he's doing does our TubularBells - i'd happily fly with him in my right-hand seat !! hehe

[TubularBells]

Oh no! I've been rumbled!

F.O I'd be happy to be your wingman anytime. Let me know when you've finished your PPL and we can talk. (:E ) haha!

[strafer]

Slightly off topic (sorry FFF)

What's a reasonable load for a Seneca? Will it take the 5 Fs? (Four fat err, fellas and full fuel).

[khaosanroad]

Hello Tubular bells,

In my flying club located in the south east of France by the mediterranean seaside, here are the fees:

- Robin DR400, 2 seater, 108 HP cruising speed 100kt: 70€/h (47 £/ hour) all inclusive

- Robin DR400 4 seater (limited to 3 persons) , 120 HP cruising speed 100 kt: 79€/hour (53£/hour) all inclusive

- Robin DR400 4 seater 160 HP: 101€/h (68£/hour all inclusive)

- Robin DR 400 180 HP cruising speed 120 kt: 108€ (72£/h all inclusive)

- Piper PA28 160 HP: 101€/h (68£/hour all inclusive)

You need to subscribe an insurance and to pay an anual fee to the flying club (from the top of my head: 80£ or so).

I already have my CPL, IR me and a MCC, but I love flying these aircraft, and also fly them for cheap hour building, waiting to do a CFI training next month.

I hope this will help. If you or anybody else want to share trips, I'd be happy to fly with you.

Regards.

[[email protected]]

If you're still looking, I've done all my hour building in Tauranga New Zealand. It's an awesome place to fly, snow covered mountains, lakes rivers, 5 mins from the beach, and C172 for about 55 quid ($160NZD) look at www.flytac.co.nz , thaeyre all really helpful and can arrange accommodation and an old car for you, (they get lots of Brits hour building)

[CarbHeatIn]

Any suggestions for Sydney?

[Piltdown Man]

I'd go to Oz. A huge, unpopulated country, filled with nothing. No navaids, nothing (apart from flies). But the flying is excellent, great value for money and the locals very friendly. And I recon that you could easily count on their support to help you with your mission. My experiences were in Jandakot (Royal Aero Club of Western Australia) and Par Avion/Tas Air in Tasmania.

[2PWRR]

If you want to learn anything florida is not the place to go, unless all you want to do is put hours in your log book. California and arizona will challenge you as a private pilot, Canada is good for learning the weather especially the east coast if you want to fly in the hills go to the west coast BC, just my thoughts

[Airbus Girl]

If hour building in USA don't limit yourself to one state - fly across America, up to Canada and back again. I did that - buy a road map and decide where you fancy going - we saw some great places; set out early in the morning, stop for fuel then fly on and spend the afternoon somewhere interesting sightseeing, then fly again for a couple of hours in the evening. Get to know 1-800-wx-brief people really well, particularly the met man!

Tips for saving money:

1) put advertisements up in flight schools in the UK asking if anyone wants to come with you - many newish PPLers want the experience but don't want to go alone - share the costs, just make sure you log all the time. Can make the trip more fun.

2) get a copy of the AOPA guide (I think its AOPA, looks like a telephone directory). It lists all airports in the USA, with useful info such as whether they provide free courtesy car, free "pilot rest area" (which is basically just like a motel room, for free), etc.
Many do. Some are fantastic (try Austin, Texas).

3) try and find out where the cheapest fuel is to be had. Many pilots will know if they've been somewhere and it was cheap.

4) do as many landings, night flying, instrument approaches, approaches to big airports as you can as its relevant to airline flying and its free

5) when staying in cities stay in the affiliated youth hostels, dirt cheap.

[Gazeem]

Don't discount the UK.

I bought a share in an aircraft at the local field, it cost about £35 per hour to fly and £35 a month. After three years I sold the share on for what I paid for it and a little bit more.

It had excellent availability - you get to fly with other syndicate members and learn off them - and you can go farther. Having a share close to home means that it is easier to take friends, family and colleagues flying (and possibly help with cost sharing).

You fly in busy UK airspace in crummy UK weather, you will build better navigation, command and radio skills here, rather than flying under flight following in CAVOK in the US.

If you finally get an airline job you still have access to a cheap light aircraft to fly.

[Callsign Kilo]

Due to me being married, I have resigned myself to hour building in the UK. Fair enough, it is more expensive, however I have paid for time in the S.E of England (where I am also doing an IMC and Warrior conversion), plus time in Scotland (where I live) at Prestwick and hopefully some flying in Ireland with my father...if done right it will show variation in different UK airspace and hopefully stand me well for my CPL/IR.

[flying paddy]

hi
Here is one for you, Why dont you try Botswana. There is a good school in Gaborone. The weather is brillant, costs the same as SA. Cheap living, and you get to go to extreme places and see animals. It would also be good expierence for anyone with plans to work at Maun. If you are interested PM me, I have the details of the Flying Club.

Flying Paddy

[too_sleepy]

Hi
I need to build another 75 hours before I start a commercial course and had always planned on doing this in the US. After speaking to a few schools and students I'm convinced that I should be doing at least a portion of my hour building in UK airspace. Is this possible in the next month or so? My main concern is weather.

Thanks,
THomas

[Sans Anoraque]

After speaking to a few schools
They wouldn't be schools who would be making money out of your decision to fly in UK airspace would they???
It's remarkable how many foreign pilots never to do an hour in the UK while training, yet when commercial, they manage to fly over here without hitting things.

Re weather - if you're from Dublin you don't need to ask.

[High Wing Drifter]

I would have thought that US flying could be as challenging if not more so than the UK. The UK does have awkward weather and crowded airspace, but then the US has hot'n'high, terrain, weather extremes and the possibility of really mixing it with the big boys (much less GA phobia at the big'n'busy airports so I'm told).

[AlexL]

75 hours in a month in winter in the UK?
Hmm I think not.Theres only about 7 hours daylight per day anyway.
However hour building in the UK is possible I have gone from 60 hours TT in March to 145 hours TT in October all in the uk so it can be done with a bit of forward planning

[too_sleepy]

Hi
To be fair to the school that really pushed me to get experience in the UK, they pointed me in the direction of local clubs for cheaper prices.
I've only ever flown in the US. My PPL was issued by the UK CAA but I trained in Florida. I can see the sense in getting used to the airspace and RT before starting a commercial course. Maybe I'd do fine without the experience but I can't see the harm in doing it.
All talk though, if the weather is the same as Dublin there's little chance. Even if it looks clear you won't get far.

Thanks

[LHmain]

Go where its the best price. If its the US so be it. You can fly almost everyday there, if you go to the right place for the season. You are satisfying a minimum requirement for flight. The training comes later. Experience in the UK could be of some use but experience in flying is the essence. You will surely need the money you save later.

[AppleMacster]

I leased an aircraft his summer to do some hour building and managed to do over 100 hours in two months even when working two days a week. It's entirely possible to hour build in the UK, but probably only in the summer.

Leasing an aircraft is the best way to do it in this country as it is available to you all the time; no messing around with bookings and all the other disorganisation that happens at flight schools/clubs. For me, it also worked out cheaper than hiring from a club by a considerable margin.

AppleMacster

[FlyingForFun]

I disagree with the general advice - I would try to do at least some hour-building in the UK, if that is where you will be looking for a job.

I'm all for doing some training abroad - but you've already done your PPL in the US. At some point, you really need to get at least a little bit of UK experience, even if it means putting up with some weather delays.

As for the weather - the best flying days in the UK are always in the winter, when the air is clear. Sometimes it takes a bit of patience waiting for these days, but it's worth waiting.

Maybe you could split your hour-building, so that you can do some where the weather is better, and some in the UK?

FFF
-------------------

[HillerBee]

Why don't you get your IMC rating first and after that do all your flying here. You need the instrument time anyway and you have more chances to get your hours in.

Try to go all over the country. Meeting a lot of people etc. etc.

[LHmain]

If it comes to that, why not do the instrument rating in the US. You will gain vast experience, be a much more competant pilot and when you return to the UK the CAA will grant you the IMC, same goes for twin rating. I have done all this, I was also an instuctor in the US. I am now ATPL flying corporate jets.

[Kazakhstan]

I am doing my hour building at Stapleford, It is possible to get at least 5 hours flying per day. I am living on the airfield so when the weather is not so good if there is a break in the weather you can quickly get an hour in. I really enjoy it and the weather tests your ability as a pilot to deal with strong cross winds make decisions to return to the airfield due to fronts. The skies are busy over here and you need to be sharp on the RT which flying in the uk does. I have a night rating which you need for the CPL which allows me to fly until 7pm. I will spend a lot of hours travelling to France and maybe go to Amsterdam. If you need to get the hours done quickly and have limited funds you might be better off going to the US but I have 2 months to do 70 hours should not be a problem in the UK.

[too_sleepy]

Hi
Thanks for all the feedback.
As I hope to start my commercial in Stapleford early next year I've decided to head to the US for the bulk of my hour building. I'll do my night rating in Stapleford and at least 10 hours of hour building. If possible I'd like to do a few hours of general flying during my commercial, I'm probably underestimating the commercial course entirely.

Thanks again for the advice.

[edymonster]

Where in the world and which flying school can you buy a block of 75 to 100 hours flying for a really descent rate. Also be able to tour the country and have the best time of your life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! any info would be much appreciated.

[moo]

the only place I've been is phoenix and it was AMAZING! no landing fees, cheap hire, cheap fuel, tons of airports, lots of airspace, lots of places to go, 366 days of sunshine a year.........would highly recommend it. Am probably going to go back next year for a holiday and do some flying there again loved it so much! :ok:

[Luke SkyToddler]

Tauranga, New Zealand. Cheap cheap planes, AWESOME town with world class beach, surfing, sunshine, beautiful women everywhere, quality nightlife.

I used to work at Bay Flight there and can highly recommend it, the guy who owns it is an ex Air New Zealand pilot who's about the most laid back human being on the planet. The tauranga aero club and a couple of other small operators on the field there can probably also sort you out with a plane to hour build with.

[Piltdown Man]

Try Oz: WA in particular (as your starting point). 100 hours will get you all over OZ and even down into Taz (although I've been told to tell everyone that its a crap place - far too good for pommies). And, may I suggest that you get a four seater and take a few locals. You will learn heaps, enjoy the view and have fantastic party. For your plane hire, try Royal Aero Club of WA. Not the cheapest but properly run and new, fast singles.

[A38lephant]

I'll second Tauranga in New Zealand. Did my PPL at the aeroclub there and it was awesome. Beautiful beach, fab flying, nice people at the club and decent rates. They also fixed me up with accomodation. :ok: Take a look at www.flytac.co.nz for info.

[edymonster]

Cheers guys thanks for your help i will do my research into those places you have told me. If anyone else has got suggestions please post them up!!:ok:

[BritishGuy]

There is this one Englishman in Florida who has a Cessna 152 (Fully Loaded - GPS and all) definantly one of the nicer 152's out there. Just over the ramp from Orlando Flight Training in Kissimmee, Florida. He charges in the region of $50 (around £30 per hour) for block time - no fuel surcharges and no surprises. Maintained at the jet centre there. Also, one good thing is that you don't need a visa for timebuilding in the US. worth a shot. He sent me some pictures when I needed some time via email but he's a private guy with all the CFI/CFII/MEI qualifications and doesn't mind giving a little instruction - gratis! He's on 001-386-295-3897. Might help a few timebuilders out there!!

[vhxxxx]

Try AVTECK TRAINING at Innisfail North Queensland. This place does 150 hour commercial licences with combined CBT ground courses. Full accomodation provded. Reasonable prices.

[flying paddy]

Hi
Try Africa, Botswana is a great place, good met, wonderful country, cheap and open skies.

[[email protected]]

I've got to 3rd Tauranga, i've just done my CPL at the areo club, its the beginning of summer so its awesome here now, they'll sort you out with a car and place to live, the lady that owns the house even makes you a packed lunch!!

[flying paddy]

About what I was saying about afrca found this.And no I dont work for them I live in Coventry.

www.flytas.com

Paddy

[Sans Anoraque]

Found this quote from the CAA on an old thread (by billiebob)

Experience. An applicant for a CPL(A) who is not a graduate from an integrated flying training course shall have completed as a pilot on aeroplanes having a certificate of airworthiness issued or accepted by a JAA Member State at least 200 hours of flight time.

The thread never really got to the bottom of whether hour building on PFA group A types therefore actually count. So, do they?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Yes they do,

G

[Sans Anoraque]

Thank you G.

Any idea why the quote uses the term certificate of airworthiness?

[edymonster]

Thanks guys again. Has anyone got advice about flying in Canada aswell???

[Sprawler]

Hi edymonster,

Can totally recommend Canada. Check out this link to my post, re Harv's Air in Manitoba where I did my hour building.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=172055&highlight=Harvs+air

[flyingskipper]

Can anyone tell me, after gaining a ppl what is the best way of building up flying hours. Can you work unpaid with a ppl if so in what capacity e.g can you instruct at a school as long as you dont get paid for it.
I hear some people having 6/700 hours under there belts that must of cost them a fortune in the uk, there must be places in say Africa that must be cheaper.
After getting my hours onto cpl, then atpl hopefully.
If anyone could give me ideas, I would be most greatful.

Thanks in advance,

Hope all are having a great christmas,

Cheers FL.

[Charlie Zulu]

You can tow gliders into the air and fly parchute drops as long as you are unpaid. It is also possible to instruct on a PPL but to do so will require an FI(R) rating. To start an FI(R) course (FIC) you will need the JAA ATPL or CPL exams completed and at least 200 hours (to include 150 Hours P1 if adding it to a PPL).

You will then be able to instruct to PPL(A) level but will not be paid. For that you will need a JAA CPL. Which isn't much of a problem as you will have passed the JAA ATPL or CPL exams anyway to be able to start the FI(R) course.

If you are paying for your hours, it is cheaper to build hours over in countries such as South Africa, United States, Canada etc and this is a route that some people take. At the end of the day, it is up to the individual.

My personal circumstances is that I have been flying for just over 8 years, have 620 hours and am half way through my JAA ATPL course.

I obtained my PPL and enjoyed it for a few years before I decided to go commercial. By this time I had a few hundred hours split 2/3rds UK with the other 1/3 being on "flying holidays" over in California.

Then I obtained an FAA CPL/IR SE ME as well as an IMC/Night rating on the CAA PPL before starting the JAA ATPL theoretical course.

Have 7 exams passed with another 7 yet to take. Hopefully be finished by the end of next summer, by which time I'll have 700 hours or so. Hey presto, the minimum required for single pilot IFR work.

Yes it has been expensive and with no bank loans in sight, but with a decent job and living with my parents, it has been more than possible without any other areas of my life being affected.

If I wasn't flying then I would have bought a house by now and it was getting to the stage that I was seriously tempted to do so. However, I want to be in a position in which I can give up my full time job to go into single pilot IFR work or Flight Instruction if the opportunity came up. With a mortgage, I doubt this would be a possibility.

[flyingskipper]

Thanks for the advice.
I am in the same situation at the moment working to pay for the flying at week-ends, studying like mad. I have realised that once you get the bug you've had it, costly as it might be.
Still, goto keep rolling the dice to stay in the game, just hope it will be worth it. Im sure it will.


Cheers, FS.

[CptSilva]

Hello,

I would like to know if anyone could answer to this questions:

Can we share time in hour building with other pilot in a Single Engine?

If so what should we put on the LogBook?

Can anyone explain the prices of this School www.letsgoair.com, in the US?

I´ve a JAA PPL and also FAA PPL.


Best Regards


Paulo Silva

[wbryce]

Who ever is flying P1 will record the time in their logbook! The other person is a passenger until its there turn to fly P1.....

You can of course split the costs with another person so you can fly further afield, for example, you pay 25 hours and the other person pays 25 hours...thus a total of 50 flying hours, but you can only log the hours you fly as pilot in command i.e. the 25 hours that you purchased.

[CptSilva]

So, if i understand that school is using mad pub, because they advertise 100 hours SE for 2350 USD, stating that you have to share time with another Pilot, perhaps it´s possible in US, i dont know.

But one thing is for sure, that is the most low price for hour building that i ever saw.

Let me see if anyone know the school and if they can tell us any experience.

Cheers,

CptSilva

[menikos]

Hi,

for the FAA if your friend is flying under IR in the hood : ) not actual you can log as a safety pilot but not for the JAA.

So it means for the JAA you can't log your safety pilot hours but for the FAA you can.

Hope it helps, if I'm wrong correct me please.

Cheers.

[wbryce]

2350 sounds about right for 50 hours...as thats really what your buying! but you will be in the aircraft as a passenger for another 50 hours while your paired pilot is flying his half....

There website doesn't make it obvious, but heres the term that makes it...not so clear!

*Please note that the quoted prices are based on sharing time with another pilot.

[B2N2]

Website does not install too much confidence, no pics of the planes either.
In the US regs, it states the minimum you need to log, eg only the time to prove currency or the minimum time required for a license or rating.
You can log however anything you like, pax time, time in seat 44D,etc.
Just cannot count the time towards issuance of a certificate or rating.
So in the US you would be legally able to log the full 100 hrs, you can just count 50 towards a rating or license. You would be out of your mind to do it, but according to the regulations, it's legal.

The safetypilot PIC issue for somebody training under the hood basically allows you to log AND COUNT that time for the issuance of a license or rating.

Two examples;

Embry Riddle has the CAPT program, they advertise you will have logged 500hrs when finished. Absolutely true, however half of them are while learning from the backseat as your training partner flies the plane.
Legal to log but not usable for application of rating or license.

I received a resume from a flightinstructor a while ago stating appr. 500hrs TT.
His PIC time and dual received did not add up, 280 hrs missing.
I asked hime about it hoping it would be instruction given.
He had logged SIC time flying with various people in C172, Pa 28 etc.
Strictly speaking legal to do so as apparently he passed his Flight instructor checkride, however a pretty silliy thing to do.

In short, a big difference in what you are legally allowed to do and what is accepted practice in the real world.

[Seaweed Knees]

If you are acting as safety pilot whilst the person in the left hand seat flies under the hood, you may both log that time as P1.
This time counts towards any FAA licence/rating but not JAA.

[buggingout]

Folks

I can't seem to find anything on medical insurance when flying i.e. to cover me if (heaven forbid) I need medical treatment whilst hour-building in The States.........my standard travel insurance obviously doesn't cover it.

Is it/ can it be included in the hire rate??? :uhoh:

Cheers

[sjm]

try this outfit i used them for medical insurance whilst in the states had to claim for some minor medical advise whilst there.


Hall and Clarke based in harrow i think should be in the book

[YYZ]

http://www.traffordsinsurance.co.uk/

This link is the one I used whilst hour building very cheap and well known, I didn't have to claim so do not know personally how they are, but many on Prune have sworn by them.

YYZ

[Permafrost_ATPL]

Whichever one you pick, make sure you pick one. FBOs in the States will tell you their planes are insured, but it only covers dammage you do to things and people on the ground. Not you and passengers. I believe AOPA (both US and UK) have links to renters insurance.

P

[buggingout]

superb....thanks very much

[flying paddy]

Hi All

I have just spoke to a fellow in Gaborone Botswana where I live and he is offering to hire his Islander out to hour builders for about £350 and hour.

Before I am accused, I do not work for this chap, he has bought 5 islanders from the air force and he has fixed one up for training on.

If anyone is interested PM me and I will pass your details onto him. I had a look at the aircraft and it is very nice.

Regards

Flying Paddy

[blueplume]

Nobody operates Islanders in Africa unless they a. make money providing a transport service or b. can find people willing to pay £350/hour to fly one.
Believe me, no Islander in the world is worth paying 350/h to fly just to hour-build. But maybe I'm wrong, I might have spent too much time on Islanders to know anything about it. And anyway, what kind of hour-building are you thinking of? 10 hrs cost you £3,500. What are you going to do with 10 hours and what could you do with £3,500? It only costs about £350/hr to receive IR training with instructor incl. all charges in the UK. People, if you want to get flying time offer your services for cheap, then both sides win.

[flying paddy]

Hey Blueplume
That is a bit harsh, I was only passing on what I had heard.
But that is your right to air your opinion and give some advice just like I did eh

Flying Paddy

[jimbo jet set]

If you want to build cheap twin hours go to a company like www.sunstateaviation.com in the States. And no i'm nothing to do with them other than being one of their satisfied customers passing on a recommendation.

[celtflyer]

If you got a commercial multi and want Islander hours, NOW is the time you should be scouring the skydiving sites and go and pay them a visit, you will find a few of them have Islanders and you wont have to pay out.

[dxbpilot]

I have come to Australia to do my ICAO CPL ME IFR and ATPL subjects , i have been studying here for 13 months now and i have already seen 2 fellow students that have completed courses ahead of mine go to fly with dodgey operators because these are the only initial jobs available to them, these 2 have been involved in FATAL accidents which are due to low standard of maintenance and overloading of A/C.

I hold dual citizenship AUS/UK but have lived in dubai most of my life, after speaking with a lot of emirates guys they have pointed me to Falcon Air (contracted by fedex) which do regonal runs throughout the mid east I have found out that they require 500tt with 300ME and a endoresment on the B1900.

The only way to get the hours/endoresment is to do it through a eaglejet program in the states. I really want to avoid the GA route especially here in AUS.

Are there any other companys doing B1900 endorsements and time ?

Any info comments would be great

(please no comments about how ppl "feel" about eaglejet)

[Leezyjet]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3652164016731046366&q=top+gun

Looks like these guys made good use of their hour building time !!!

:ok:

[Andy_20]

Awesome!?! :ok:

[EGAC_Ramper]

Egg-cell-ent!!

:ok:

[d2k73]

Excellent!

[Thunor]

Brilliant!:ok:

[winch launch]

any volunteers for the hot-shot video?

[lanky15]

I am looking for places on the interent to do hour building in the US and i just can't find anywhere so does anybody have any reccomendations:)

[Keygrip]

L15 - despite your clear enthusiasm for the game, at the age of 15 and with 3 hours logged towards a PPL, this really is a bit premature.

By the time you have the PPL and are ready to go hour building (for what?) no doubt a number of those schools in the US will have ceased trading - especially if they are not supported by a website or flight school listing.

Of course you want to progress, I see you also want an IMC, Multi engine and night QUALIFICATION (it's not called a rating), but it'll all come - in time.

BTW - what's a Vigilant and/or Tutor?

[expedite08]

Hi all,

Just a quick one to see if anyone knows of any group shares operating from Bournemouth.

I have had a look on the hanger.co.uk and also ukga to no avail. Im sure there must be a few groups operating from such a large popular airfield. If you dont wish to post directly please PM me with any details.

I am preferably looking to join a group, however if anyone knows of any other competitive rates for hour building in a PA 28 or 152, i would be interested to hear.

Many thanks,

expedite

[pulse1]

There was a tenth share in a C172 advertised in one of the April mags. Sorry I can't remember which one but it wasn't Pilot.