Purchasing a Cessna 150/152 for Hiring?

[heat]

I am researching purchasing a C150 or C152 to put online at a flying school. I have done a little research in costs and amount of hours needed to just break even, but have a few questions people with some experience in the area may be able to answer. These are:-

Is there a demand for putting a C150 online?
Which is more desirable C150 or C152?
Buying an aircraft out of hours with low TT. is that a better option?
Aircraft engine and overhaul costs?
Charging flying schools wet or dry rates?
Pro's and negatives of hiring?
Is a contract needed, with clauses such as minimum hours flown monthly?

Any information would be great, THANKS!

[Blue Sky Baron]

As someone who has "been there, done that", my suggestion to you is that unless you have lots of money and you are prepared to lose it, take a Bex, lay down, and have a rest.:zzz:

It is very difficult to make money on a 150/152 at any flying school.
Think about it; if it was profitable, the would own them themselves!

Your aircraft maintenance costs will be TRIPLE that of a privately owned and operated one.:ouch:

Sorry if that sounds negative, but that's how life can be.:=

Trust me!

BSB :ugh:

[Aerodynamisist]

If you are going to go ahead with it heat go for the 152 or c 152 aerobat if you can find one. the 152 has a 115 hp lycoming o 235 engine with a 2400 hr tbo as opposed to the o 200 continental in the 150 which has a 2000 hr tbo, I would budget around $ 25 000 for engine and prop overhauls. For a hourly with no major problems your looking at around $1200.

The 152 is normally 5 to 10 knots faster in the cruise than the 150 so it's more likely to be used for nav ex's which makes it more desirable.

Also if you have trouble with the old cessna 200 nav com radios that are standard in the 152 don't bother overhauling them (they are valve driven crap not worth spending any money on) you can get a TKM digital nav com that will slot into the 200 series radio mount.

Expect to hire out at $90 to $100 an hour dry - tacho or airswithch

[Horatio Leafblower]

Aerodynamicist,

that seems like an enormous amount of money for a little aeroplane. We are currently using a PA-38 (Yes v small school) which is costing us $50/hour dry.

Given that C152s and PA-38s have (substantially) the same engine, why the price differential? :uhoh:

[heat]

Thanks for a bit of info guys. I realize it may go pear shaped but l am looking at the aircraft paying for itself within 5 years. I wouldn't be doing any personal flying in that period and realistically not making any profit in that time. I have run figures on a spreadsheet and it looks like it would cost about $125 hr to break even, doing about 40 hrs a month. Anyway l'll keep on planning.

[flywatcher]

Heat, as long as you realise that any aircraft is a hole in the air into which you throw money, you will start off in the right frame of mind.

[Chimbu chuckles]

And there is the rub, 40hrs a mth utilisation, 5-10 will be more like it.

If the aircraft was going to be utilised 40 hrs a mth the flying school would buy the aircraft and operate it themselves, pocketing the profit.

I have a Bonanza on line with an aeroclub and it averages around 6 hrs a mth. I have a very accurate spreadsheet fine tuned over nearly 7 yrs of ownership. I can very accurately display what it costs me to provide the aeroclub with a decent aeroplane for their flight line,at zero cost to them.

They bung on $30/hr as their margin and pocket that money...hence the ONLY one 'making money' from the deal is the aeroclub...little wonder they LOVE crosshire arrangements.

Don't get me wrong it's not all one way....the pay off for me is the hrly rate covers the hangarage, insurance and scheduled maintenance, or most of it, NOT ALL, and the minimal usage keeps all the working bits working nicely...nothing worse for an aeroplane than sitting doing nothing. As I live overseas and can only fly my aeroplane on holidays and work overnights in Brissy it suits me to have them using it a little. Plus I own my aeroplane outright so do not have to cover bank repayments.

But make no mistake. If I was living in Australia the aeroplane WOULD NOT be on crosshire. For starters if it was just me flying it my insurance premium would reduce by near 60%...that would be around $4000/annum saving. There would be that much saving again in other 'bits and bobs'.

Enter the number 6 where you have 40 now and see what numbers your spreadsheet spits out then and compare that to the hrly rate they are offering...then lie down and have a bex.

If you can afford to buy an aeroplane and want to own one fine..there really is nothing to compare to travelling around in your own aeroplane avoiding the MORONS demanding that you remove your shoes....but buy a C172 or 182 not something that travells at 105kts and is over gross with two normal size people and 2 hrs of fuel.

If the numbers were that good the aeroclub/flying school would NOT be asking you to subsidise their operation....that IS what you are doing.

If you don't believe me ask the school for a written contract guaranteeing 40 hrs a mth utilisation...and see what happens next.

Edit: In fact ask em for a written contract guaranteeing any number of hours/mth and then stand back and watch.

[heat]

Yeah, l am starting to gather the feeling that its a bit of a luxury to have the plane. Being online may help in costs but really lt wouldn't break even. Well like all in aviation l love taking risks, and the idea of having my plane, but unfortunately being poorer in the process!

[Chimbu chuckles]

Some more numbers for you.

If you go out and buy a c152 you're crazy however that was what you were suggesting so we'll work on that as a starting point.

A typical 25 yr old C152 is really worthless...I will say that again...it has bordering on 0 residual value. But just say you found one and paid 10k for it. 6 mths or a year later you have to replace the radios and you'd REALLY like a decent GPS. That'll be another 10k fitted. 6 mths later the engine needs overhauling and you decide to paint it because she's looking a little daggy. 30K minimum...then you look at the interior and it looks really ****e with all the shiny new radios and paint so you get it spruced up a tad...2k. If they find some corrosion, and they will, make it 4k.

You have now spent 52k and guess what?

On the right day, with the wind blowing from exactly the right direction and ONLY assuming the buyer is as dumb, I mean 'romantic', as you that C152 is worth maybe...MAYBE...20-30k.

There is a reason Cessna didn't restart production of C152s a few years ago when they started cranking out 172s, 182s and 206s again....and that is a C172 costs about 7-10% more to run than a C152 but carries 3 normal size adults, 20kg of stuff and nearly full fuel. That comparison btw is an educated guess as it has been YEARS since I flew either...but it is VERY close.

[barney01]

I'm sorry did somebody say a C152 is worth nothing? Gee there must be a lot of people out there wasting there money on advertising 152's for up to 60k!

Sure Cessna doesn't make them anymore but they also didn't start making any RG aircraft either and are they worth nothing?

Heat, I would suggest that you go and chat to some people have an idea of ACTUAL costs not somebodys guess.

At the right school a 150 or 152 should plenty of hours but if a school owns one 150 and has another that is cross hired guess which one will do the most hours?

Buy an aeroplane if you want one, but buy shares in BHP if you want to make money.

[Chimbu chuckles]

I think I said a 'typical 25 year old C152'...you are talking about the ones that have had the money spent.

And just because they are advertised at 'up to' 60k doesn't mean they are selling at 'up tp' 60k.

Like boats the VAST majority of asked prices are what the owner 'wishes' it was worth.

I have been an aircraft owner for 9 out of the last 16 yrs...even if my C152 numbers are out by 20%, and I don't think they are, the story remains essentially unchanged.

6+ yrs ago I bought a 1970 A36 with 6500 TT, 600 to run on IO550b engine, which had been top overhauled about 600 hrs before, and 800 to run on the prop...both first lives. I paid $100k..even that may have been 5-10% too much...but that is a moot point.

I have twice restored aircraft. The first, a C185, was out the back of a hangar in the long grass...the second was the above Bonanza.

The difference is I don't do it to make money...I do it so I can own a great aircraft at 25% of the new price.

Tell me again about those 60K C152s?

[Woomera]

Heat. Save yourself a swag of brass - and many headaches - and hire Horatio's "PA-38 ... which is costing us $50/hour dry."

Whoever owns that Tomahawk is already losing a poultice. No need for you to do the same.

I've owned eight or nine aircraft from C150 to C402, each one achieved the expected loss!!!

Sunny Woomera

[YesTAM]

Repeat after me: "If it flies, floats or ****, rent it"

[Deaf]

If youre looking at a C150/152 as a hire proposition, run the figures on a new Jabiru 160. Base price, certified (VH or RAA reg) is 75k with VFR instruments and one radio. One bloke has bought 12 (with full glass panel which ups the price a bit).

The only downside is high sales have a long lead time - order now probably is delivery next year.

[Squawk7700]

Actually, the J160's are a smidge over $80k for basic set-up and the wait time is 12 months. For the "glass" cockpit that you speak of, expect around $92k+.

Definitely the most economical aircraft in the air. A stack more room than the 150/152, uses around 14-15 litres per hour with 130 litres on-board, cruise at 100'ish, up to 110 prolonged cruise, GA registered in standard or LSA categories. At full up weight they will out perform an empty 150/152 by far. PM me if you want to find out more about someone who operates them online... top end overhaul 1,000 and bottom-end at 1,500 hours.

Can't beat them I'm afraid and for those that say they are too small, the J160 is bigger than the old original trainers and they are now exceptionally reliable. The ONLY downside is the wait time at present; other than that, I can't see any.

[djpil]

..... other than that, I can't see any.
They're not aerobatic. Are they approved for spinning?
A $60K 152 would have to be an Aerobat in VG condition with good engine times - at that it is hard to beat for value.
If I want to go somewhere in an aeroplane I'll fly Virgin.

[Squawk7700]

Well not everyone wants to go upside down or be spun around. They are a great trainer if you don't want to do aero's. If you do want to do aero's, do it in a decath or something; knock off tailwheel, CSU & aero's all at once.

[Tinstaafl]

Don't expect your potential a/c to be a profit maker if you rent it to a school or aeroclub. Think of the arrangement as subsidising to some amount the costs you *will* have to pay to own an aeroplane.

[golow]

Hard to make money on a flying school line. I have a late model C172, 100 hourly cost $2500 to $3000, 50 hour check $250-$300 with a good late model plane!
Paid $74 an hour dry, thats the going rate on a $150000 plane. Insurance is the killer with $7200 a year.
Does about 25 to 30 hours a month,
Good luck Heat

[heat]

Thanks for the responses! l think the feeling is it would be not be a cost effective exercise to purchase an aircraft, unless it did a considerable amount of hours. Regarding a Jabiru, l am unfortunately still reluctant to be interested in ultralight category aircraft. I know it just a matter of time before l/we have to convert though!
For the moment l will still keep on working out a way to at least pay for itself!Happy Days

[djpil]

No-one's mentioned negative gearing yet. Better to negative gear other investments and rent as some-one else suggested.
As for a Decathlon, I wouldn't recommend one for heat to buy and put online anywhere. At least a C.152 Aerobat is fairly robust in a flying school environment.

[Elroy Jettson]

There is a mob in Columbia that will give you a plane, all you have to do is get it into the US undetected! :}

[Deaf]

Loosely on topic. Regarding the Jabiru 160 they have had Microair radios & Transponders and are now switching to Becker for these at an extra $1,000 for the radio and $400 for the transponder. I got a call saying I can have either.

Has anyone used these Becker units and/or have any comments good, bad or indifferent.

[Kickatinalong]

Schofields Flying Club will have a brand new Jabiru on line THIS month (June) Full Glass, 100 kts , VH rego'd
Who said Ultralights.
Kickatinalong.:ok:

[Squawk7700]

DEAF - I can put you in touch with someone who knows a lot about the Becker unit. Personally I'd go the XCOM. The XCOM page www.xcom760.com has one of the best comparisons of XCOM, Dittel, Becker, Microair's and others so best check that out; it's in a matrix format.

I suspect there's a bit of a rift between Jabiru and Microair. One of Microair's biggest customers would have to be Jabiru; could get a little nasty; was much nicer when Jabiru used to own Microair.

Oh and if they tell you you can't have an XCOM or alternate radio, tell them not to fit a radio, but rather to leave the hole blank. Order an XCOM or similar, then take a headset and handheld when you pick up the aircraft and slap in an XCOM or similar later. I know an XCOM can be fitted if you drop into the dealer on the way home; he will do it for you.

If Jabiru site the CASA regulations as not allowing you as the owner to change the radio, this is INCORRECT and tell them to shut the hell up.

Bonus of the XCOM is that you don't need to spend $300'ish on an intercom as it has a VOX intercom built in, thus saving you lots of money and you get dual watch functionality as in having 2 radios for the price of 1... great value if you ask me.

Transponders - you can't beat the Garmin transponder. Big numbers, big display and very east to read and operate. It also has a flight timer and some other features. If you bought the Dynon EFIS, you can use the Dynon as an encoder for the Transponder and save yourself $400'ish. Only problem is that Jab may not have the dash cutout size for the Garmin transponder, but again, you could fit it yourself.

[Eight Ball]

Heat, if you are in Sydney, I know a school looking for a couple of C-152s as they are getting cadets from India. Apparently, they ONLY require a C-152 as their primary trainer. Dunno why.

[djpil]

Yes, the 152 is a firm requirement for the Indians - they need to do their training on a type which is in India. Even a 150 does not meet their requirement.

[heat]

I am in located in Victoria but would be interested cross hiring to anywhere in Australia. If the hours are ok though! Appreciated if you PM me, if you have more information regarding Indian training in Sydney.

[Eight Ball]

G'day heat.... they are not just training the Indians, they are getting 10 cadets from Japan as well. They will be needing the 2 extra C-152s in December but it doesn't mean they don't require it now. I'll PM you the name of the school. Hope this helps you.


Eight Ball

[QNH1013.2]

It's not unusual for Indian's to hit our shores for further training with a commercial licence from India gained solely in a Cessna 152!

[Eight Ball]

It's not unusual for Indian's to hit our shores for further training with a commercial licence from India gained solely in a Cessna 152!

he-he-he..... I agree with you QNH. I even had a guy come in for twin training and had a lot of difficulty landing the duchess, we nearly stalled at 50 feet and has put the twin in a spin during a steep turn. This guy has a CPL. I heard he is now an S/O of an Airbus 3 weeks after he finished with us. Crickey !!! from C-152, to BE76 for 10 hours then on to an A330. Holy cow !!!

[aerocom]

Kickatinalong

Can you show us a photo of this full glass jabiru, i.e the inside of it.:O