What's in a name.........TSR2 ?

[TacLan]

Sorry if this is going over old ground, but does anybody know what the TSR2 would have been called had it entered service?
If it was open to debate, my choice would have been the "Edna" (Named after Denis Healey's wife) I doubt it would have been cancelled then!

[BEagle]

I've heard that 'Claymore' was intended....

[Brewster Buffalo]

...white elephant???? :p

I'm reading a book about it now by co-inicidence but it has not mentioned a name yet.

It is odd that it got so far in it's development without getting a name of some sort..

[ExRAFAC]

Mmmm....Think it ended up being called Tornado....

[SASless]

Except the Tornado was slightly less capable than the TSR2 despite being such a later design.

Odd thing is the old Buc could have been improved to do almost the same mission tasks as envisioned for the TSR2 and Tornado.

An excerpt from one article at Thunder and Lightning.

The government had looked at American methods of project management and development, and while finally admitting that the American's methods were superior to traditional British methods, they make a complete mess of implementing these improved methods. To all intents and purposes it appeared that the government's version threw away all the good points and kept the bad - the new, more 'efficient' management techniques would soon turn into the most bloated and inefficient bureaucracy ever seen in the aviation industry. One celebrated incident occurred when a meeting was called and the meeting's chairman decided that far too many people had turned up. He cleared the room and asked for only essential personnel to turn up for the second attempt at the meeting. When the reconvened meeting arrived, and the essential personnel had trooped in, it was found that there were actually more people present than in the first meeting.

[RonO]

Bunch of spotters out there claim it was Eagle based on official docs.

[Brewster Buffalo]

......snip..
Odd thing is the old Buc could have been improved to do almost the same mission tasks as envisioned for the TSR2 and Tornado.
.......snip.

"Blackburns themselves were convinced that what they had appeared to be an almost ready-made replacement for the TSR2: an aircraft that was well beyond its basic development stage and needing only limited funds in order to take it to the next phase of development.

Although this was an admirable attempt by Blackburns to compete with BAC aircraft, it seemed that what was actually put forward appeared to be little more than an optimistic sales campaign and was never going to be technically feasible, So many radical design changes would have been required to give it both the necessary speed and range that ultimately it would have resulted in a Buccaneer that bore little resemblance to the original submission." from TSR-2 F Barnett-Jones

...so apparently not unless the OR was changed..anyway the UK Govt were set on buying the F-111...Aardvark (now there's a name :rolleyes: )

[D120A]

Does anybody know, what was TSR1? Canberra? :ok:

D120A

[FormerFlake]

Does anybody know, what was TSR1? Canberra? :ok:

D120A

Wasn't the 2 for Mach 2?

[Brewster Buffalo]

Wasn't the 2 for Mach 2?
Yep...originally Tactical Support and Reconnnaissance - Mach 2 .. strike was substituted for support later on..

[Jackonicko]

There was no Tactical Support and Reconnnaissance TSR 1 - the original TSR 1 was the Torpedo Strike and Reconnaissance TSR 1, and was apparently the Swordfish!

As to a name, I'd always heard that several were under consideration - at least one of them with the same kind of Aussie connection as the Canberra had!

[Arm out the window]

That would have been good - the 'Mudgee', or 'Coonabarrabran' for example.

[fightingchickenplumb]

I havent heard an offical name like, but I always fancied mosquito as a good name, the aircraft was a hard hitting multi-role platform that excelled in those roles as am sure the TSR2 would have.

As a side line to this does anyone know or heard about a muted plan to stick the AWG-9/AIM-54 cimbo in a variant to make it a interceptor? I often wondered about the idea, i can see some of its attractions, the TSR would have a high dash speed, a good fuel load to enable it to loiter, and the ability to carry a useful suite of missiles.

[doubledolphins]

I thought it was called "Swordfish". (Torpedo, Spotter, Reconnaissance Mk 2).

[Brewster Buffalo]

........As a side line to this does anyone know or heard about a muted plan to stick the AWG-9/AIM-54 cimbo in a variant to make it a interceptor? I often wondered about the idea, i can see some of its attractions, the TSR would have a high dash speed, a good fuel load to enable it to loiter, and the ability to carry a useful suite of missiles.

I haven't heard of this though AWG-9/AIM-54 interestingly was originally designed for the USN F-111.

I presume the missiles would have to go into the TSR2 bomb bay..

What would could against this idea would be the cost of a TSR2 interceptor against the already in service Lightning..despite its advantages..

[Zoom]

I doubt if it would ever have made a decent interceptor with its very high wing loading. At some point it would have had to 'mix it' and it wouldn't have been able to. Even the Arrow would have been a better bet - just.

[Pontius Navigator]

There was no USN F111.

The USN version of the TFX was the F12.

IIRC Robert McNammar's was furious when he discovered that the F12 and the F111 were one and the same but that each service used its own naming convention for what was essentially supposed to be th esame aircraft.

Like the MRCA and ADV, the TFX air force and naval variants were supposed to have a high degree of commonality. One 'big' difference was the short nose on the F12. Airfix made the TFX model, superb working undercariage, and provided alternative parts so you could make either version.

Anyway the result of McNammara's fury was the F15, F16, F17, F18, F22 etc all following the single numbering system. Still Lockheed managed to stick with the Century series - 117 :).

[Archimedes]

I think it was the F4H/F-110 that caused McNamara the most confusion, though. He thought these were two aircraft, and I daresay that after imposing TFX on both the USAF and USN in 1961, he began to think that the services were openly defying him when they started talking about the F-12F and F-111 (as I suspect they probably did)...

JN could well be right about the TSR2 having an Australian name, and this was certainly the case for the F-111 when it was chosen as the replacement for TSR2. To cut a long story short, the RAF began the hunt for a name, and asked the RAAF to help choose. The RAAF helpfully submitted something like 19 aboriginal names that the RAF air staff couldn't pronounce and the name 'Taipan', which was deemed to sound 'too oriental'. So we ignored the RAAF and chose from our own long-list of names.

We settled for Merlin for the F-111, ahead of Richmond. Mercifully (with due repsect to the town) 'Harrogate' was rejected before the final decision was taken....

I suspect that some conflation of the naming policies for the TSR2 and F-111 may have taken place in subsequent accounts of 'what it might have been called' - next time I escape to the PRO I'll see what I can find.

( Edit to add: 'Eagle' does seem to have gained some popularity in certain circles. I've seen a couple of magazine covers talking about 'Airfix's new BAC Eagle GR1', and in trying to find more detail about the provenance of the name, have googled my way to a variety of websites where some seemingly knowledgeable aero-modelling types say they've found the detail - but never where they found it...)

[ImageGear]

If my hazy memory serves me correct it was Tactical, Strike and Reconnaissance. (support never featured)

Imagegear

[Squirrel 41]

Anorak on.

There was no USN F111.
The USN version of the TFX was the F12.

Pontius, interesting.

I thought that the USN TFX *was* designated F-111B, which explains the rest of the classification series F-111A (USAF), F-111C (RAAF), F-111D/E/F (USAF), with the later F-111G being redesignated FB-111As in the tactical / theatre role.

Anorak off!

S41

[Brewster Buffalo]

F-111B - unofficial nickname "Seapig" :sad:

[Jackonicko]

"There was no USN F111.
The USN version of the TFX was the F12."

Nah!

The YF-12 was the fighter version of the Blackbird family (A-11, YF-12, SR-71), and the USN F-111 was the F-111B.

[fightingchickenplumb]

:p

I presume the missiles would have to go into the TSR2 bomb bay..


not neccesarily brewster the bac litrature kicking around in the 60s stated 4 underwing pylons would be itted at a later date for a future stand off ASM,problem is am buggered if i can remember the name of the program although no i think about it a trapeeze arrangement ala F102/6 would be a good idea

[FormerFlake]

:p

not neccesarily brewster the bac litrature kicking around in the 60s stated 4 underwing pylons would be itted at a later date for a future stand off ASM,problem is am buggered if i can remember the name of the program although no i think about it a trapeeze arrangement ala F102/6 would be a good idea

Or they could have used the missile pack system from the Arrow? Sparrow 2d would have made up for the TSR2s poor manouverability at high level.

[Kitbag]

Missiles in the bomb bay- think it would blow the aerodynamics to hell if doors had to be opened as the ac was having to manouevre to get a target. Remember reading somewhere that F102/F106 had serious problems against aggressively flown targets. Perhaps we can persuade the bad guys to fly straight and level?:ok:

[buoy15]

Kitbag
You are very close to a story about a Valley instructor in the 60's who was teaching air combat to the Saudis and Jordanians
"Complete the manoeuvre, fly straight and level for 15 secs, next manoeuvre, straight and level for 15 secs"
Sqn Boss got wind and said " What the fcuk is going on Bloggs, this is not in the syllabus"
"No Boss", said Bloggs, " But we might have to fight these b*st*rds someday"

As an aside, was the TSR2 not built by Shorts in Belfast?

[Blacksheep]

TSR1 would have been the Mossie - but De havilland didn't use numbers back then.

TSR2 should have been called the Camel - a thoroughbred designed by a committee.

When it was scrapped they still hadn't got the landing gear, air conditioning or electrical systems to work properly. The landing gear in particular seemed to need a complete re-design from all accounts. The test pilots were always upbeat in public, but it would have been interesting to be a fly on the wall at post-flight de-briefs. :suspect:

From a military viewpoint, TSR2's most enduring legacy was the complete overhaul of the RAF's antiquated WW II maintenance set-up and the new trades and trade groups that emerged. For that alone it was all worthwhile.

[Brewster Buffalo]

Kitbag
As an aside, was the TSR2 not built by Shorts in Belfast?

Shorts are not on the list of contractors I have... airframe assembled at Weybridge and then, IIRC, at Warton by BAC

[RonO]

http://www.planespictures.com/data/3Britain/BAC%20TSR%202/TSR2_sc14.jpg

[BEagle]

Very nice graphic!

Shame about the airbrakes though....

[Zoom]

.......and the frosted glass.

It still looks pretty up-to-date though.

[brickhistory]

Well, obviously, the bird had to deploy 'boards' to formate with the camera ship.

And the frosted glass? Latest in cockpit EM suppression. Shhhh!

:cool:

[Brewster Buffalo]

.......

And the frosted glass? Latest in cockpit EM suppression. Shhhh!

:cool:
Nah looks like tinted windows to me...