Flight Dispatcher - Would you like to be like this?

[Epsilon minus]

Aviation Career Overviews New Search
Airline - Non-Flying Flight Dispatcher

General Information
Even though the airlines are in business to transport people from one place to another, they could not function without the help of many people on the ground, including those who take reservations and sell tickets, as well as those who help keep the airplanes operating on schedule.

Position Description
FAR 121.533 states that both the airline captain and the dispatcher are held jointly responsible for the safety of the flight. In cooperation with the pilot, the flight dispatcher furnishes a flight plan that enables the aircraft to arrive at its destination on schedule with the maximum payload and the least operating cost. The flight dispatcher considers en route and destination weather, winds aloft, alternate destinations, fuel required, altitudes, and traffic flow. The dispatcher's signature, along with that of the pilot, releases the aircraft for flight. The dispatcher maintains a constant watch on all flights dispatched, and is responsible in joint agreement with the airline captain for flight planning, route and altitude selection, fuel load requirements, aircraft legality and complyig with FAA regulations. The dispatcher is the go-between for the pilot and ground service personnel, and keeps all personnel concerned with the flight informed about its status. The dispatcher must be familiar with navigation facilities over airline routes and at airports as well as with the takeoff, cruising, and landing characteristics of all aircraft operated by the airline. The flight dispatcher also must ride periodically in the cockpit with the flight crew to observe flight routes, conditions, and airports.

Working Conditions
The dispatcher shares 50/50 decision making and responsibility for the safety of each flight with the airline captain. Flight dispatchers work indoors at the airport in the airline operations office or control center. They use computers, calculators, weather charts and information, and loading re-ports. A 40-hour week with shift work is normal.

Flight dispatchers frequently work under pressure in a fast-paced environment especially when flying weather is bad. They must make many rapid decisions concerning safety, flight regulations, and the economy of operations. These employees are surrounded by people, teletype machines, telephones, and intercom systems in a noisy, busy atmosphere. Those who work for a small airline, carry on the duties of a meteorologist and schedule coordinator.

Federal Aviation Regulations part 121 dictates that airline dispatchers must ride in the cockpit jumpseat on "familiarization flights" for a minimum of 5 hours each calender year. However, most airlines treat dispatchers like pilot cockpit crewmembers, and extend them this excellent priviledge on an unlimited basis. Also, hundreds of other airlines around the world recognize the significance of the airline dispatcher, and extend the cockpit jumpseat authority freely to them. This is one of the greatest benifits available for dispatchers.

Flight dispatchers must be able to work rotating shifts including days, nights, weekends and holidays.

Typical Requirements and/or Experience
FAR Part 65.53 Eligibility requirements: General. (a) To be eligible to take the aircraft dispatcher knowledge test, a person must be at least 21 years of age. (b) To be eligible for an aircraft dispatcher certificate, a person must-- (1) Be at least 23 years of age; (2) Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language; (3) Pass the required knowledge test prescribed by Sec. 65.55 of this part; (4) Pass the required practical test prescribed by Sec. 65.59 of this part; and (5) Comply with the requirements of Sec. 65.57 of this part. Job applicants must have good vision, hearing, enunciation and an FAA Dispatch Certificate. They must thoroughly know the Federal Aviation Regulations on airline operations and be competent in airline communications and meteorology. Experience with monitoring, analyzind and/or calculating various flight factors such as weather reports and NOTAMs, runway performance, weight and balance issues, ATC preferred routes distance and fuel needs to create and/or update flight plans.

Education
A high school diploma or equivalent is required. Though a college degree with a major in air transportation or meteorology is useful preparation for work as a flight dispatcher, experience is equally important.

Marital Status
Married and unmarried men and women, with or without children are eligible. Persons who are widowed or divorced, also are eligible.

It is the policy of most aviation companies to provide equal employment opportunity to all individuals regardless of their race, creed, color, religion, sex, age, national origin, disability, military and veteran status, sexual orientation, marital status, or any other characteristic protected by state or federal law. Most aviation companies are strongly committed to this policy, and believe in the concept and spirit of the United States law.

Wages and Benefits
The following information is provided by Richard Wateska of Airline Flight Dispatcher Training Center. Entry level flight dispatchers earn between $24,000 - $30,000 with $110,000+ top end annual salary. Benefits of being employed with the airlines are great and include: Cockpit Jumpseat Authority (ride jumpseat on your airline, and most other airlines globally), Free or reduced rate travel priviledges (world-wide travel for you, and your family and friends), Health Insurance, Life Insurance, 50-60% discounts at most large hotel chains globally (Hilton, Hyatt, Sheraton, Marriott, Intercontintal, etc) , 401K retirement plans , Discounts at most major rental car agencies , 50-80% discount on most ship cruise lines, Hundreds of other standard airline industry travel discounts. Salaries and benefits can vary. For an updated look at salaries in the aviation industry, view the Avjobs.com Salary Report.

Where the jobs are and who hires
Flight dispatcher positions can be found with the airlines around the world. Large freight carriers like UPS, FedEx and Airborne also hire dispatchers.

You may also write to the airlines and request an application or check their web site. After completing the application, send it to the airlines Director Flight Dispatch, Director Flight Control or Director System Operations Control Center.

Opportunities for Advancement
Flight dispatchers can move into this position from jobs as dispatch clerks, junior flight dispatchers, radio operators, meteorologists, or station managers. Large airlines employ senior dispatchers who specialize in coordinating the finances of every flight. Promotion is from within. Experience as an airline dispatcher may be used in qualifying for a job as an air traffic controller with the Federal Aviation Administration or as an airport director.

Outlook for the Future
Dispatchers are such a vital part of an airline and companies are hesitant to down-size them. The introduction of low cost regional airlines is also playing a role in creating opportunities in the industry.

Training
The FAA mandates strict training requirements for dispatchers in which the airlines must comply with.

To locate educational facilities with programs related to this position, search AVSchools. AVSchools makes researching and finding an aviation college, university, flight school or professional training facility simple.

[shgsaint]

Where do I sign? :)

[no sig]

Informative post EM

[FougaMagister]

Too bad that so little of that (FAA) job description applies to our job in JAR-land! :*

Cheers :cool:

[skywest_xr]

I remember the Avianca 707 that crashed in long island....the dispatcher for that flight was held liable for the crash because he gave the tech crew out dated forecasts.

Strange that 3 cockpit crew cant read the validity of a forecast for there arrival.

[Chesty Morgan]

"The dispatcher shares 50/50 decision making and responsibility for the safety of each flight with the airline captain."

My arse!

[Aloon]

Shame the pay doesn't reflect the responsibility..... 6 pence more than check in staff here.... Is it worth it?? Moody passengers or moody crew?? Responsibility, a hell of allot more!

[Aloon]

Maybe more grief but certainly not more responsibility

More responsibility?? Oh yes it does! A check in agent has the responsibility of a fine if they let a passport go through which is not accepted abroad.... Or a check in error...Or a baggage error.... which the DISPATCHER has to sort out... Or even a crew meal error.. god forbid! Biggest delay going!

Who ends up in court if an a/c goes down?? Dispatcher is one.....

Would you go fly without that signature??

Chesty... Don't think a dispatcher is just there to pass you figures and sort your problems out for you.... There's so much more to it.... Perhaps pilots need the equivalent to a 'fam flight' on the ground to see what these people really do day in day out!

[Aloon]

Fair enough.....
LEGALLY can and will. As long as I have ensured the aeroplane is loaded as per the load sheet. And then sign the load sheet myself.
The Buck stops HERE kiddo!

So you go and check every passenger is in their correct seat and every bag is in the correct hold?? I'm sure you do... Not the responsibility of anyone else but you?? I'm glad you do... Sure makes me feel alot safer, Knowing the pilot has checked everything!! Who checks everything before pushback?? NOT you! A guy you have to rely on day in day out to do his checks.... So was it a little sweaty don't you think in that rear hold?? ( passengers were very greatfull when you pulled their boarding cards too! oh and checked their passports and visas, and hand luggage and how sober they were! )

That's a rather narrow minded and infantile comment. Crew welfare is one of my biggest concerns as a commander. After all how can anyone do their job properly if they are under fed, feeling dizzy, sick, faint etc. We can't just stop what we're doing and wait until we feel better can we?

As you said... under fed, feeling dizzy, faint etc..... all crew experience this day in day out. So do ground crew! But you don't think of them?? NO coz YOUR flight is so important!

Try working on the ground! You'll soon feel pressure!

You have to deal with ONE flight at a time..... Ground crew are all over the shop with many flights in mind, not just yours! I know you deal with one flight well once up in the air, but come on... how many people actually made that happen?

I've said before, I've been on a fam flight, and enjoyed it, but try it the other way around and you'll soon get a shock!

Please realise what ground staff actually do, not just what you 'see'.....

[Aloon]

Just because I don't physically do something myself does not mean I am not responsible for it.

Exactly..... So you have to rely on the underpaid monkey who actually does work on each aspect of your flight!! So where's the responsibility???? On your shoulders AND theirs!

Small a/c then... Glad you have the priveledge of checking everything as not many pilots do!

So you stated, Just because I don't physically do something myself does not mean I am not responsible for it.


Who do you entrust with this information???

So you then trust the under payd, lower class people who choose, yes choose to work in this enviroment!! We're not here for a laugh yet get the most c***p out of people mouthing off!


When I found out that the handlers at my base were actively disregarding their rules, our rules and flight safety by NOT informing the Captain of drunk passengers. I filed an MOR, along with other people. It no longer happens., I am gauging whether or not a passenger is fit to fly. And yes when I'm sat there gazing out of my window


Fantastic... I'm glad you got a result! Though what is you normal turn around time?? Safe departure??


And yes when I'm sat there gazing out of my window, I am gauging whether or not a passenger is fit to fly.


Time to do that is a slight give away!! And what do you do about it?? Jump out of the cockpit and refuse boarding because they look funny to you??? What is your opening line?? I'd love to know!!

[Aloon]

And the next time my number one comes in to the flight deck, in tears and shaking telling me someone has threatened to kill her I'll just remind her that dispatchers have a harder life, man up and go and give him another beer shall I? Remember we can't run away from that!

Your in a locked cockpit!! That's why I choose to work out of the enclosed tube!! Ground staff get this kind of abuse too, though I agree that at 30,000 feet it's a different story.

Maybe more grief but certainly not more responsibility.

The Commander has SOLE responsibility for the safety of his aeroplane, his crew and his passengers. Fact. That's what working hard at school gets you. Pay that reflects responsibility!Today 17:51
A dim view of everyone else then??? Yes, you do have SOLE responsibility, once airborne, on the ground though?? Like I said before, do you actually check every passenger?? NO.. you relly on the boarding agents and your cabin crew... Do you actually check every bag in each hold?? I think not.... If you do then you are one in a million!! You rely on someone else to take that responsibility.... So NO.. you are not the SOLE responsibility on your flight like you think you are..... You get the plane up and down..... Everything else is up to other people! Others sign their name in responsibilty to certain factors of your flight. And would appreciate a little more respect!!

[Aloon]

Have you even read the first post on this thread?? Here is some of it.
FAR 121.533 states that both the airline captain and the dispatcher are held jointly responsible for the safety of the flight. In cooperation with the pilot, the flight dispatcher furnishes a flight plan that enables the aircraft to arrive at its destination on schedule with the maximum payload and the least operating cost. The flight dispatcher considers en route and destination weather, winds aloft, alternate destinations, fuel required, altitudes, and traffic flow. The dispatcher's signature, along with that of the pilot, releases the aircraft for flight. The dispatcher maintains a constant watch on all flights dispatched, and is responsible in joint agreement with the airline captain for flight planning, route and altitude selection, fuel load requirements, aircraft legality and complyig with FAA regulations. The dispatcher is the go-between for the pilot and ground service personnel, and keeps all personnel concerned with the flight informed about its status. The dispatcher must be familiar with navigation facilities over airline routes and at airports as well as with the takeoff, cruising, and landing characteristics of all aircraft operated by the airline. The flight dispatcher also must ride periodically in the cockpit with the flight crew to observe flight routes, conditions, and airports.


The dispatcher's signature, along with that of the pilot, releases the aircraft for flight.

Please read the above... That's what the thread is about!


"The dispatcher shares 50/50 decision making and responsibility for the safety of each flight with the airline captain."

My arse!


Simple, yet quite a loud statemenbt!

You're quite welcome to be involved in my pre flight fuel planning, alternates, wx, cruising levels, route selection.
Which navaids should I program into the FMS between Cardiff and Edinburgh then? Is the ILS CatII or not, what alternate minima do I use if it's not?

Indeed I am, but you obvously don't see it that way!

How does my aeroplane handle? Is it easy to land in a cross wind?

Don't know, never done it!

Have you periodically flown with any airline recently? Ever?

Oh yes, and I appreciate the involvement of everyone who contributed to that flight!

[Aloon]

Simple questions -

When have I said "you are useless to me"?
Why do you seem to be so hostile towards pilots?
Not everyone is as perfect as you, are they?
Wont anybody else speak to you tonight?

You're lucky I've got nothing else to do.

When have I said "you are useless to me"?

You attitude speaks volumes.....

Why do you seem to be so hostile towards pilots?

Not pilots at all! Just you!

Not everyone is as perfect as you, are they?

Not perfect.. But close!

It seems we are both as sad as each other!


Wont anybody else speak to you tonight?

You're lucky I've got nothing else to do.


Oh yes... very lucky... thank you so much sir!

[Aloon]

And so you should be!

Sleep well....

[redfield]

I'd like to throw my ha-penny worth into this intriguing discussion. Chesty; Firstly, if you do everything you say you do I think you're the ONLY pilot who does. I've been dispatching for eight years and I've NEVER seen a pilot visually inspecting his aircraft holds to check that it's been loaded correctly. Secondly, if you have time to check the holds with a x-ray scanner on a 25 minute turn-round, how much time does this leave for your pre-flight checks? Thirdly, referring to your quote "the captain has sole responsibility for the safety of his aeroplane." if the dispatcher DOESN'T share responsibility for the correct loading, then how come it's the dispatcher who gets it in the neck when an error is made and not the pilot? Dispatchers sign to say that the aircraft has been loaded in accordance with the instructions; the impression you create is that this is your responsibility; fine by me, maybe you can load the bags next time, as this seems like the only way that you can be 100% sure that your aircraft is loaded correctly! Fourthly, as A Loon stated, you DO rely on the dispatcher to check the loading. Just about every pilot that I've dispatched requires the dispatcher to sign the loadsheet, but why should they sign it if the safety is "solely your responsibility?" What are they there for then??? I'm afraid I don't really agree with most of your remarks, however some constructive come-back would be interesting. Which airline do you fly for by the way???

[routechecker]

I believe a "small" misunderstanding has developed here.
The original text refers to the US definition of flight dispatch which I belive it's called Ops controller in the UK.
Nothing to do with loading aircraft or checking passports.
And yes, in the US the Flight Dispatcher/Operations Controller does share a 50% responsability with the Captain, before and during the flight.
"In cooperation with the pilot, the flight dispatcher furnishes a flight plan that enables the aircraft to arrive at its destination on schedule with the maximum payload and the least operating cost. The flight dispatcher considers en route and destination weather, winds aloft, alternate destinations, fuel required, altitudes, and traffic flow. The dispatcher's signature, along with that of the pilot, releases the aircraft for flight. The dispatcher maintains a constant watch on all flights dispatched, and is responsible in joint agreement with the airline captain for flight planning, route and altitude selection, fuel load requirements, aircraft legality and complyig with FAA regulations. The dispatcher is the go-between for the pilot and ground service personnel, and keeps all personnel concerned with the flight informed about its status. The dispatcher must be familiar with navigation facilities over airline routes and at airports as well as with the takeoff, cruising, and landing characteristics of all aircraft operated by the airline. The flight dispatcher also must ride periodically in the cockpit with the flight crew to observe flight routes, conditions, and airports."

[Epsilon minus]

CM
You are indulging in a pi$$ing contest that serves no purpose or relevance to this thread. Judging by your comments you clearly are not an FAA licenced dispatcher. Please read the post at the start of this thread.
Your comments regarding shared or collective responsibility "My arse" are indicitave of your ignorance regarding this subject.

The first post points out some of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR's) regarding the dispatch of an aircraft. Let me help you with a couple of words
1) Regulation : from the latin regula - a rule- regulation the act of regulating: state of being regulated; a rule or order prescribed; a form of legislation used to bring the provisions of an act; a law.
2) Dispatch : in FAR parlance is not as you understand it and hence the first post. It goes way beyond the turn around, ground supervision and load sheet responsibilities that you are involved in at your place of work.

You can read FAR121 and 65 online. It will help you to fully understand what goes on and why it is so important to debate its merits were it to be adopted in Euroland. By debating it here in these forums it may also encourage some to form pressure group(s) to lobby authorities to favour FAA methods and regulations.

Catch the tides of change - don't try to swim against it. Find out what some of us do, how it's done and then come and join us. The challenge of responsibility will invigourate you.
Cheers
EM

[Epsilon minus]

CM
I don't think you have got to grips with this thread. You are ideally suited to your present job.
Regards
EM

[routechecker]

Now I've got that off my chest. Routechecker, you're right. In the US this is what a "Dispatcher" does. Not here though.
CM
Surely you mean "not yet".
Then again and quoting your own words;
You're quite welcome to be involved in my pre flight fuel planning, alternates, wx, cruising levels, route selection.
Which navaids should I program into the FMS between Cardiff and Edinburgh then? Is the ILS CatII or not, what alternate minima do I use if it's not?
How does my aeroplane handle? Is it easy to land in a cross wind?
Have you periodically flown with any airline recently? Ever?
If you work for a Airline worth it's salt those items are all there ready for you when it's show time.
Someone will have done the pre flight fuel planning, alternates, wx, cruising levels, route selection..
They have looked at the weather. If the vis or the wind are is bellow your minima ot the aircrafts maxima they will tell you that you are not going anywhere until they say so.
If you need it they will run you through the wole thing in so much detail that after 5 minutes jyou will be completly lost (no one will do it because most sensible people understand and respect the diferences between diferent jobs).
The Commander has SOLE responsibility for the safety of his aeroplane, his crew and his passengers. Fact. That's what working hard at school gets you. Pay that reflects responsibility!
Now, that is just plain dishonest. The ones who get it just by hard work (and hands up with lots of kudos for them) are becoming a minority. You should know by now that it's all about money. And sometimes, knowing the right people in the right places....
And to end on that last note, what you do (the bit about sitting at the pointy end of aluminum tubes ;) ) is a job.
It's not a God given privilege.
You will learn that with age.
If you have already reached a sensible age and you still don't get it then... Hey what can I say...you reackon Chelsea will win the Premiership again next year???
rgds

[Aloon]

The original post stated that you share the decision making and responsibility for the safety of each flight. That is wrong. You don't decide what happens on my aeroplane...EVER.


CM You seem do have a very dim view of your fellow workers. Do me a favour and use one of your days off ( as I have ) to see what the other side of airline/airport work involves. Or are those four stripes on your shoulder so important that you can't consider other people?? It's not hard... leave the sims at home alone to fly across the water and use your time to get to know people and what they do... Go for a drink for god sake! Unwind with people! - without the stripes.....

[Aloon]

And as I've all ready said I worked on the ground for 2 years before I got a job.


By the way I am only here because of my hard work, self sacrifice and dedication. And 40K of my own money. I knew nobody in the industry.


After two years you knew nobody?? Social skill problem??

This thread was started about a dispatchers responsibility, not a pilots.... Though you may think you are constructive in your criticism of a job you know very little about.... Your attitude doesn't help, and certainly if met in person, I'd walk away from you as would many others, leading to further delays. You add resentment by being this way, not respect.
A dispatcher is there for a reason... this industry doesn't waste money any more!

Please go on a ' fam ground day ' , take a packed lunch, as meals are not provided... You may not get time to eat it though.... In the mean time, get to know people and what they do.... Things may have changed since your two years on the ground and non socializing behaviour......

[Aloon]

Why are you even posting here. You're not a dispatcher.

Sorry, and you are??

[Aloon]

We've all ready established the 2 different meanings this has either side of the Atlantic.:ugh:

And yet we are both UK in location! Yet have a problem agreeing on someone elses responsibility.....

YOU are sole responsibilty... I get where you're coming from... but before you go and whilst you are on the ground, others are involved, who also have responsibilty... Be it major or minor... You couldn't cope without us....Surely after two years on the ground you could get a jist of what goes on??

[Aloon]

A pilot who used to be a dispatcher

It's taken you this long for that??

I beleive in you...... Feel the force...

Out of interest, how long ago??

[Aloon]

Well many things have changed since then....

It's been a great debate chesty... Lets leave it to others to contribute... time to close our posts and see others views....

Take care...

Keep safe...

aLoon

[Opssys]

fascinating full and frank exchange of views and one that probably not occurred if terms used in Civil Aviation to describe the various functions were clearly defined internationally, or even nationally. Whilst it has got heated I am glad the Moderators haven’t stepped it.

As this thread covers two distinct functions, the rest of the post is divided into two main sections

Operations Control
I have been fortunate to have spend a days at a time monitoring the procedures and processes in Control Centres of three American Airlines with very different company cultures. As is the law these companies were using the Dispatcher System, but above this the level the organisation of the Control Centre and indeed the non-safety related management of the flying programme was very different. What was common to all was the joint responsibility system worked, primarily because that is how all those involved whether Flight Crew or Dispatchers have been not just trained, but 'brought up' and neither Pilots nor Centre staff could conceive of an alternative.. Whilst it works in the US environment and there are some useful lessons that could conceivably be translated to the European Centres, the US Dispatch System is not one I believe should, or indeed could be exported to the UK en-block!

I have also spent a lot of time in various Airline Control Centres across the world using variations on the Operations Control System so familiar to us in the UK. In these centres, the division of responsibility between Controllers and Crews is often vague, in many countries is not enshrined in law and is often overridden by the norms of the national culture, albeit with some in-company modifications (i.e. The Senior Person is always right, even when wrong and don't even think about discussing it).
But in almost every case the training of the operations centre staff is to a high standard (a lot higher than various threads in this forum indicate UK training has in general been).

The recent initiatives from ICAO and the European Authorities will enhance the Training of Operations Control staff (and therefore finally give recognised status) and will clarify their responsibilities, across carriers within the EU. This in turn will slowly ripple out to other countries and their local companies that use an Operations Control System.

I don’t believe the US Dispatch mode of operation will replace the Operations Control type of operation in the UK. Although I firmly believe the ‘new’ Training and Qualifications requirements will enhance the Professional Status of those running the Operation and the Flight Planning Function and at the end of the day improve the relationship between them and the Flight Crew.

Airside Dispatch
The responsibilities and duties of the Airside Dispatcher (Ramp Agent/Redcap/etc) should be (and indeed in my relatively limited experience are) detailed in an Airline Companies Flight Operations Manual - General (probably the same chapter as dealing with Loading and Load Control).

It is often the section of the Flight Operations Manual least referred to by Flight Deck Crew (although the Load Control and Loading Sections do usually show the signs of often ‘hurried’ use).

The problem for the Handling Agents Airside Dispatcher is that he/she never sees that section of any companies manual, although the Handling Brief prepared for the start of the contract may summarize the content of that section, it will not state it is an extract and it will never provide the section numbers etc and these briefs are rarely if ever updated, so no significant change will be notified..

For instance in some airlines the dispatcher has control of the Flight Departure until doors close, this also means they are both responsible and accountable (and it is important to understand that these are NOT just words).
Obviously this still requires that the Dispatcher maintains close liaison with Flight Crew, Engineering and the other elements of the process pre-departure period with as the last job before Doors close being giving the Captain the final update,. In effect handing the Flight over!

The other extreme is ‘Observe and Report’, where the Airside Dispatcher has at least in theory NO control over the departure and is only obliged to advise Control Centre and Crew deviations from the Departure/turnaround timelines. In the rare instances where this is the case, Dispatchers normally manage to influence events by ‘force of personality’.

Load Planning. Load Control, Loading Procedures and Safety
There is a trend towards centralised load planning and loadsheet production. Indeed there is some evidence that a certain UK Airline is going to remove Airside Dispatchers from any direct involvement id the process. Regardless of involvement at Planning/Loadsheet Production stage, an Airside Dispatcher has to be totally conversant in all aspects of the process including Dangerous Goods, Load Spreading, Heavy and Oversized items, AVI, HUM, Tilted Load reporting (hopefully only inbound from some careless station  ) Change Control of the Load Plan and Last Minute Changes in Passenger/Baggage Load.

Whilst the Captain does sign it off and should be made aware of dangerous, or other special cargo, he/she is dependent or the Airside Dispatcher, or more rarely these days a Load Control Agent knowing their job.

The training of Airside Dispatchers is another area that I believe has been too long neglected. A knowledge base which covers local knowledge of the capability of sections and time to achieve results and the industry wide knowledge of the main functions such as Passenger Services, Load Planning and Control, Physical Loading constraints,, Dangerous Goods, Airside Safety, etc can be acquired by functional training in each area and long experience, but how often is this the case? A base standard for an Airside Dispatch Qualification is perhaps something that needs to be looked at?

DIH

[Pierre 1]

Can you please offer some advice...I am now retired from ground ops and would like to obtain or view old Jep Charts or Aerad Charts in order to follow my hobby of listening to HF broadcasts etc ie when long haul aircraft give position report etc

Really looking for Europe/Middle East and Atlantic Charts.....is it possible to view old charts on the internet or can you advise where I can get old charts
as I cannot afford to purchase current sets

Your advice would be appreciated

Regards

Peter

email [email protected]

[Pierre 1]

I am now retired (ex Senior Movement Controller and SAR Coordinator etc)
and was shocked to read this in house fighting between a Captain and Operational Ground Staff.

Everyone shares responsibility for the safety of a flight and no one can say if it is 50/50 or any other margin. In my time in aviation I have observed and listened to both sides and found that no one is perfect. I started in aviation at the age of 15 and although retired I still do aviation consultancy that makes my experience 50 years covering Long Haul/ShortHaul/Ad Hoc Charter/VIP&Executive/GM of FBO/SAR Coordination etc etc

Now thats out the way I just want to say that this type of discussion as gone way too far and I feel the peace pipe needs to be smoked between you two guys.

I have met the very best in Front End and Ground Staff and also come accross cowboys on both sides. I have flown many many times and observed the stress when the weather is 8/8 on the deck but also observed the same stress in the operations room. Aviation is team work and no one must have the right to say that they have a greater workload than the other because everyone cops stress at different levels.

I have seen ground ops make absolute balls up of flight plans, flight planning, load sheets that have gone un noticed by the crews.....at the same time I have audited flight deck paperwork and observed well below standards on entries.....so you see life is ballanced on both sides. Once I found a series of standard plogs that were grossly incorrect, especially in relation to time lapse etc that resulted in the flights always running late because SID etc had not been worked out correctly.....this was the error of flight planning and of course the front end who flew these routes time and time again without picking up the errors.

So let me strongly suggest you both be at peace, maybe say sorry to each other. After all we are all equal in life and one cannot operate without the other

Kind Regards

Peter

[Aloon]

Nice one mate.....

Indeed, mo malice is intended.... A Debate at best!

Any other input is well received.....

Keep safe...

aLoon

[Epsilon minus]

Gentlemen
You all need to get out more. Your comments display a parochial viewpoint with regards to dispatch.
It has been clearly spelled out to you by my first post and the post from Opssys that there is as much of a difference between ramp dispatch and flight dispatch as there is between flying and cabin crew.
You are all hung up on the ramp dispatch business and one person. no names, (CM) cannot see beyond the defoliated trees of the ramp dispatch wood.
Look this is not about what goes on on the ramp.
As for shared responsibility - this is FAA law - no debate here it's the bloody law and it works fine and has been working fine since Douglas invented the DC2.
Now would you advocate such a system here in JAR land (CM please do a bit of research before you pitch in). Remember that Holland Germany and Portugal already administer such systems and practices and Dispatchers (flight not ground; CM) are state qualified and audited. Why don't we?
Rgds EM

[Pierre 1]

I fully understand your comments and responsibilities but I sincerely hope that you are not indicating that I should get out more or that I dont know the difference between Flight Despatch,Ground Ops, Ramp Despatch etc etc.

A movement controller is the highest position in the operations department who operates under the Operations Manager. His responsibility covers all departments during his minumum of 12 hour shifts (that in my case extended sometimes between 18-24 in exceptional circumstances. His responsibility covers Flight Despatch/Flight Watch, Ground Ops, Ramp Coordination and sometimes Traffic & Cargo. It depends on the airline concerned and what positions are covered and really there is no set standard. Like the difference between low cost airlines and main line airlines such as BA

His responsibility covers everything imaginable including out of hours duty executive for the entire airline and out stations.

I really dont want to get involved in this agenda but just wanted to express my thoughts just in case someone was hinting that it was I that should get out more or keep in touch with the differences between the various departments.

[Pierre 1]

Well said CM the system here works very well indeed and I consider the expertise of most of the operational side of any airline in this country as being second to none.

We are all professionals even thought sometimes our red tape goes a little bit overboard....our CAA certainly keeps us on our toes

Regards
Peter

[Epsilon minus]

CM you have capitulated by asking me to look elsewhere. You say we will have to agree to disagree but you haven't addressed the subject and are argueing about something completely un-related to this thread. You have no experience of FAA regulated dispatch so you are not in a qualified position to argue against it - bit like Morticians advocating a better health service.
You also state that there is nothing wrong with the "system" here so why change it.
Let me give you an example:
FAR 121 Subpart U
121.639 Fuel supply: All domestic operations.
No person may dispatch or take off an airplane unless it has enough fuel—

(a) To fly to the airport to which it is dispatched;

(b) Thereafter, to fly to and land at the most distant alternate airport (where required) for the airport to which dispatched; and

(c) Thereafter, to fly for 45 minutes at normal cruising fuel consumption or, for certificate holders who are authorized to conduct day VFR operations in their operations specifications and who are operating nontransport category airplanes type certificated after December 31, 1964, to fly for 30 minutes at normal cruising fuel consumption for day VFR operations.

Note the brackets "where required"

Now have a look at subpart U 121.619
121.619 Alternate airport for destination: IFR or over-the-top: Domestic operations.
(a) No person may dispatch an airplane under IFR or over-the-top unless he lists at least one alternate airport for each destination airport in the dispatch release. When the weather conditions forecast for the destination and first alternate airport are marginal at least one additional alternate must be designated. However, no alternate airport is required if for at least 1 hour before and 1 hour after the estimated time of arrival at the destination airport the appropriate weather reports or forecasts, or any combination of them, indicate—

(1) The ceiling will be at least 2,000 feet above the airport elevation; and

(2) Visibility will be at least 3 miles.

(b) For the purposes of paragraph (a) of this section, the weather conditions at the alternate airport must meet the requirements of §121.625.

(c) No person may dispatch a flight unless he lists each required alternate airport in the dispatch release.

This will frighten you. I dont know what type of aircraft you fly but lets imagine it's a B757 and your off to HER from LTN and the type of release is as per the above. You will be flying with burn + 45 mins ;) This assume that the rest of the regulated system is enforce ie flight following and that the 50/50 responsibility share means that when I say you land short of the destination at XYZ (because of a non compliance with 121.619) that's where you stop.
Now do you see the difference.
Have a think about the fuel saving as well and the environmental advantages. Not so bad is it? Now have a butchers at 121 subpart P and all will be revealed as to what we are banging on about.
So It's not a fight - it's an eye opener for you as to what goes on on the other side of the pond and how it could benefit us all and in particular benefit the careers of those who are not :yuk: able to pole a bit of metal around the sky as you do, yet can enhance and augment the way it is done from a safety, effiency and financial benefit.

So to answer your questions - There is only one way of looking at this not the two views that you say. Have a look at www.FAA.gov/regulations it's the way of the future for you. :ok:

[Pierre 1]

CM. I would just like to say that your closure on this thread is fine. In our system the Captain is ultimately responsible for his flight and accordingly he his given a flight plan to guide him on his way with relevant weather and notam briefs etc. The person in charge of operations during his shift is aware of his flight,progress and anticipated problems.

As and when problems arise operations make direct communications with the Captain or vice versus and enter into discussions as to what the company would like him to do and the Captain will then follow those requests if at all possible or will overide based on his own initiative.

All companies have their own minima for a given strip except when state minima applies. The normal policy is to make an approach when marginal weather applies and it is perfectly normal to have two attempts before diverting. I have known many times when the whole of the UK is marginal with only Prestwick in Scotland being totally clear. If one creates an environment of not being allowed to make an approach, would, in many cases ground all UK's airlines.

Captains have to be given the discretion to make an approach and if this is taken away from them by regulations or other persons (who cannot see conditions at a particular field) then our little island industry could well collapse.

Take the Channel Islands for instance that can have a cloud base that undulates giving a wave like flow. You get the actual which to all intents and purposes tells you that the weather is out......a good operations man will in the meantime communicate directly with local ATC/Ground Staff and by discussion will recommend to the Captain that they operate the schedule.

The Captain again evaluates the weather and monitors the progress of other aircraft ahead of him as to if they got in or not. There is no risk in such operations because you overshoot when you reach minima.

In regard to comments regarding costly fuel burns and the environment etc
When an aircraft diverts and ends up off location with no slip crew and no replacement aircraft the snow ball delays can continue for many days resulting in stranded pax, crew running out of hours, difficult ground transportation due to fog on the roads etc etc and in some cases causing a night stop. The financial situation becomes critical owing to not being able to clear the backlog and renders some aircraft AOG because company engineers cannot attend to the aircraft that would normally transit via base etc etc

One could argue this issue until the cows come home.......our system is fine
and in general I think our professionalism in using common sense is the better option.....it is not unsafe to operate in such a way as we all work together as a team with a 50/50 contribution.

Hope we can lay this matter to rest now

Peter

[Epsilon minus]

P1
CM. I would just like to say that your closure on this thread is fine
Sorry but it's not your (you and CM) thread to close. There are others who would like air their views. Feel free to leave and thank you for your comments. Send me a PM if you are still looking for navigation material.
CM
I was arguing my own point of view (which IS most of this thread)
Yes you do seem to have liberated others of the opportunity to express their point of view. However before I let you swan off to the plotting table with P1 I would like to point out what I would like the debate to concentrate on. As Opssys has pointed out it is unlikely that a carbon copy of the FAR modus operandi vis a vis flight dispatch will be seen here (unless the bean counters read part 121.639). What we would like to see though is a state authority recognised training system that would be enshrined in JAR ops1 subpart N or a subpart dedicated to Ops Control Flight Dispatch (call it what you will) training requirements.
There is nothing to stop an AOC holder from pulling any old Tom Dick and Harry off the street and putting them in control of a multi million $ fleet of aircraft and relying on the aircraft commander to sort out the mess.
In FAR land the dispatcher and pilot have both sat the same exam (ATP) in JAR land it is only a recommendation that ops staff are trained in accordance with ICAO 7192D3 which is (more or less) the UK ATPL syllabus - no exam at the end mind you. Can you see how shared responsibility is easily facilitated when both parties hold the same qualifications. Can you see how much safer not to mention cost and efficient, this will make operations.
Time and time again you read in this forum "how do I get an FAA dispatchers ticket" "What sort of training should I do to work in XYZ Ops". It should not be like this , training should be in compliance with regulations, not left to the individual or Operator, I am sure you will agree.
A2000, Easyjet and others have sent their ops staff to the States to obtain FAA regulated training and FAA licences. Time this was done in the UK.
Regards EM

[Pierre 1]

It appears we have all expired our comments or at least CM and Myself on this matter...I realise the thread stays open but CM and I have aired our views and no longer wish to dwell on this as we are both happy with the current system.......one final word is that no matter what qualifications exist at the current time all our staff went on professional operational courses that ended with exams.....no paperwork...just years upon years of experience both theory and practical.....we also had to travel on a regular basis on the jump seat to check flight plans and procedures....

As a senior movement controller I also had to go to out stations and do operational station audits including those of third party handling agents...including BA. Last year I did station audits in the UAE for a major client....so you see we do know what we are talking about Finally I witnessed two incidents since the turn of the century where aircraft under US registration and under flight watch by such qualified persons you refer too, landed in wx conditions below minima with minimum rnwy length....so you see the system can fail, because like in most situations, the Captains use their own skills and knowledge.

I am not saying that I always agree with such marginal flying but only the man up front can see the true picture and not the man sittings behind a console/computer....the question of right or wrong is not for me to judge.

If we are still talking I would appreciate any old high/low enroute charts covering whatever is available but with emphasis on NAT, EU down to Middle East as my hobby is scanning HF/VHF and UHF etc.obviously I want to cover the world but I would not expect to receive the lot....I can pay for postage ..crazy yeh!!!

Thanks for everyones comments

Peter

[no sig]

Unfortunately, our system in the UK does indeed have many failings, the most significant is the lack of a formal ops accreditation such as the ICAO 7192 D3 licence. There is a sound reason behind the ICAO recommendation that flight dispatchers/flight operations officer should be trained/licensed and it is the UK who have fallen way behind in this regard.

Our system may not be broken but it is most certainly weak, particularly when held up against the US FAR system and other European countries where training of ops staff is to a high standard and equivalent to aircrew. Although, I actually do believe the FAA system to be superior to our approach, I tend to agree with Opssys that it is not necessary to move towards such a system in Europe.

The debate about joint dispatcher/commander responsibility is actually a separate one from the core issue of having a system of training and accreditation that ensures those who have an influence on flight safety are adequately trained for their role. Ops Officers most certainly have, at times, influence over decisions a commander may make. That of course is not to say that the commander is not the one in sole command of the aircraft, he is of course. But, and it is a significant but; where an individual is providing a flight crew member with information that may be the basis for a decision which may affect the safety of flight then that person must be trained adequately, and in my view that training should be to a standard equivalent to the aircrew. There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever, that UK ops officers do influence flight safety in their day to day job.

Although, I don't wish to drag up the earlier discussion CM and Aloon had; but historically, in the UK the greatest impediment to ops officers obtaining adequate training has ironically been from pilot managers and the CAA who have had doubts over the issue of joint responsibility and concern that their command authority would somehow be diluted by moving towards the US FAR style flight release system- that was actually never the case nor the core issue. ICAO (not the FAA) spelled the requirement out 40 years or so ago in doc. 7192 D3.

Chesty M (hope you're still with us here) as our pilot representative, I hope you'd agree that we would have a better (and safer) system in Europe (UK) were every ops officer you deal with on a day to day basis properly trained, as you were when you did your ATPL studies. Wouldn't you feel more comfortable with the knowledge that your ops colleagues have a formal ops accreditation and a section in Part D of the ops manual detailing their initial and recurrent training and competence requirements? Just as you probably do knowing that cabin crew and engineers have had to demonstrate their knowledge and competence in their respective roles.

Pierre 1, where it sounds like your outfit had high standards sadly it is not universally the case. Experience should be build upon a sound foundation of knowledge and theory. Many believe that a few years on the ops desk is all that is required- that is simply not case.

And, again I am in complete accord with Opssys regarding ramp dispatch training, another area for another debate.

[Pierre 1]

I agree some formal and routine training should take place and any GOOD airline will carry out this training......however back to my comments regarding two flights arriving on seperate days in zero conditions and short runway.

Both aircraft were American reg and both aircraft were under the control of FAA approved despatch....I observed both aircraft landing and I am sure you could imagine that terrible gutt feeling you get when such attempts were made.

I guess we are back to the previous comments made by others that the dispatchers are ultimately responsible if an aircraft goes in or overshoots the runway?

If the dispatcher is in total control of a flight, how could such an attempt be made when the field is zero vis on two seperate occasions and what measures do FAA take in monitoring a flight on the other side of the pond.
And why is such a person still in a job if "they are ultimately responsible".

It is my belief that we can only assume the norm that it is the Captain who decides upon arrival if to make an approach or divert.

I could also raise the question of CB's over the field or on the flight path...would the dispatcher make a decision when he his on the other side of the pond to divert, hold or make an approach? again I think we come back to the Captain although I always asked my crews to hold clear of CB's having studied at great lengths the influence of a Micro Burst. This was long before these were ever talked about (until after many aircraft had crashed).

I really dont know if I can say anymore on this thread...I just want to put a ballance into things to prove that even with training no one is perfect and I would still argue that the Captain is in charge at the end of the day and his final word. Obviously we can make all the recommendations to him but he will decide.....should you make a correct decision and he the wrong one then it is left to the Chief Pilot to carry out a de brief with him after you have given your input. One final point we never stop learning and there will always be the odd cowboy somewhere in the background on all sides.

Hope you all respect my comments it is purely my own thoughts

Peter

[no sig]

Pierre 1

Of course we repect your views.

We can always find an anecdote to fit the discussion, I could cite examples where the US the Dispatch system has saved the day, having worked there as a licensed dispatcher.

Flight dispatcher/commander joint responsibility is an emotive issue for many UK aircrew and it is, by in large, mis-understood over here by many of those who have not worked under the system. But it is a red-herring, the real issue for the UK airlines is not the adoption of the FAR flight dispatch system, but the training and 'qualification' of operations staff to a common (generic) standard.

Some might ask why this has just become an issue. İt hasn't, it has long been an issue in the 36 years I have worked in the industry, just that it was ignored, for the most part, by the CAA and many airlines until ICAO pulled them UK up on the matter some 4 -5 years ago after an audit. İt led to changes in JAROPS1 two years ago or so, which required ops officer (operational personnel) training to be to the 'relevant' parts of ICAO doc, 7192 D3. But I ask the question here- how many ops officers out there can say that their airline has adopted 7192 D3 as their syllabus, and how many have included the requirement in their ops manuals? The fact is, it needs to be a regulated requirement before the airlines will really make it happen. Unless, every ops officer exercising operational control over a flight is required to hold an accredidation it isn't going to happen the way it should.

My hope is that we will see it move forward under EASA and that in the not too distant future a common training standard will be defined for flight operations officers, it will be long overdue here in the UK.

[Epsilon minus]

Nosig
İt led to changes in JAROPS1 two years ago or so, which required ops officer (operational personnel) training to be to the 'relevant' parts of ICAO doc, 7192 D3.
This is not true; AMC 1.205 only recommends 7192D3 it does not enforce it. Your old outfit has just added 4 FAA licenced dispatchers to its NCC. Clearly they value the ground school more than the licence which is what is lacking here in the UK. Were there to be proper ground school facilities here in the UK, teaching the 7192D3 syllabus, Sheffield would be scratching for business.
Cheers
EM

[no sig]

EM

OK, I used the word required, when actually it says, should be based on relevant parts , to me that leaves little option as to what the training syllabus should be based on.

I am pleased that the Orange one is still taking training seriously, but it illustrates my point, which I know we are both agreed upon; that the UK is still lacking in any clear direction as to ops officer training if the only option considered is to send the boys and girls to the States for a US based dispatcher licence- I ask you what relevance has the study of FAR part 121 to the European operation? The dispacth licence is valuable, don't get me wrong, but a European qualifcation would be much more so.


[ACJ OPS 1.205
Competence of Operations personnel
See JAR-OPS 1.205
If an operator employs Flight Operations Officers in conjunction with a method of Operational Control as defined in JAR-OPS 1.195, training for these personnel should be based on relevant parts of ICAO Doc 7192 D3. This training should be described in Subpart D of the Operations Manual. It is not to be inferred from this that there is a requirement for Licensed Flight Dispatchers or for a flight following system.]

[Epsilon minus]

We are singing off the same hymn sheet Nosig. I concur with your previous post. Should we do anything about the lack of a UK based ground school for Ops Officers ?

[Epsilon minus]

CM
You are still hung up on this 50/50 decision thing. Let me clear up a few things for you. From my days with a 121 flag carrier the Ultimate and over-riding responsibility was with the aircraft commander, and still is. He may not however override a command that would endanger life.
So it is still the pilots show in the US and this is clearly reflected in pay scales. Having said that, training of dispatchers in the US instills mutual professional confidence that is not found in our country.
Nosig and I have met and discussed this in the past. Formal,regulated and accredited training of operations officers in this country is not only desireable it should also be madatory.
Regards
EM

[Pierre 1]

Well we all agree to formal training of the operations staff and in my company it was done in house with sub contractors being hired to fill in where applicable.....all was carried out with full CAA approval,

CM...I continue to support you on this issue of decision making...ultimately you are live with the action and the only one who can look out and see exactly what is what......obviously if ops make recommendations to you based on their own knowledge with the bigger picture in mind then as you rightfully have stated you can still overide this in the interest of a/c and pax safety.....etc

It is rather sad that in the event an accident occurs you can say with great confidence that the Captain will be guilty until proven guilty!!!!!!!!! I have witnessed many many incidents where senior management and other third parties duck for cover under such a situation......how many of our experts have witnessed a disaster and had to deal with the aftermath?

This also raises another issue......how many of our followers out there can tell me the implications of two senior Captains flying together when not on a training flight....maybe one of our more qualified dispatchers could answer this question?

Maybe this should be in another thread but its good to have the practical background of our followers as opposed to the theoretical ones. More food for thought I would like to mention being a SAR Coordinator was in regards to a major incident in Bass Strait Australia some time ago......An a/c ditched and one of the crew survived the initial impact and activated his beacon.
The qualified fully licenced CAA experts then initiated procedures as per their manuals for such emergencies and a fiasco of untold proportions commenced.

They followed their training and their manuals by the book....in the meantime a passing Ansett a/c picked up the beacon and circled the survivor...he actually waved at them. after many hours of Bureaucratic b... s... the Ansett a/c had to leave location due to fuel remaining.....by the time a search a/c (Fixed wing and Helicopter) was located the poor chap disappeared below the waves.

Now we come back to how red tape procedures can sometimes cripple what should have been a routine remedy.......because of CAA training they had to follow procedures and didnt use their own initiatives.....everyone knew that the adjacent Oil & Gas offshore field was supported by many choppers and the CAA didnt attempt to call upon any of the bases that scattered the coast.

The purpose of this story is to explain that no matter how formal or informal you want to make aviation it still take a senior operations man to take things by the horns and fix the problem or the captain flying his a/c.....no book can resolve such issues just your own experience and the fact that you are there in situ and know the true situation.....I have seen so many people die for no reason at all in both the Military and Civil Aviation so once again...if we here have a good system why change it....by all means put Jo Bloggs on a course or whatever and then leave it up to the CAA to vet each airline, which is what they do anyway.....no doubt this will stir up a few brain cells!!??
Peter

[Epsilon minus]

CM
I played right into your hands. Thank you for pointing out my error ;) It should have read; he (the captain) may not endanger lives by overriding a dispatchers decision.
That's better. Now can we all move on please.
Regards
EM

[no sig]

Chesty Morgan

Yes, of course, the commanders resonsibilites are clear and there should no doubt about that fact in any UK operations room, however, under FAR 121 it is different as we all know.

You know however, that where an option/s, acceptable to the commander exists, for example, the choice of alternate/s during poor weather; then ops control has a role to play in working with the commander to decide the best course of action- from an operational and commercial perspective. But for them to be able to work at your level they need trained and that is the core issue in this lenghtly post.

Thank you for the support on Ops training, but can I ask a favour of you, please have a chat with your Chief Pilot and Ops Manager and ask how far things have gone in your airline with respect to ops officer training to ICAO 7192 D3- you'd be a a popular chap with the ops guys and gals and be sure to get all your request days off granted!

[clicker]

Interesting if not a slightly stormy thread at times. Interesting because it partly outlines the reasons I left the aviation business to take up a post with a police force as a radio controller, something I've done for 19 years now.

I came into the aviation career back in 1979 when I was very lucky in getting a job, in ops, with Transamerica at Gatwick. They worked the american dispatch/ops system, although as they didn't have any sched services they didn't need a licenced dispatcher. At Gatwick we were responsible for any flight between the NAT and INO areas. We didn't do a full set of flight plans, we did however cover short flights within our area, working out the route and fuel requirements. We gave routing info to Oakland (HQ) for diplomatic clearances and then applied for them. We flight watched the aircraft, passing wx info and reroutes and arranged diversions. When TV srated their JFK/AMS sked service Oakland has licenced dispatchers but at LGW we were very much part of the process.

Mcuh to my regret TV ceased operating in 1986 and I ended up going to AE for 6 months. AE ops, while enjoyable, was not the same kettle of fish and nowhere near as interesting but thats mainly due to the bus service type of operation, rather than the one off charters that TV did, so when I got a chance to join Sussex Poilce for the same sort of money I jumped ship which was about a year before their collaspe.

To be honest I would not leave what I'm doing now, too old to jump back again and I'm still having fun telling policemen where to go and getting away with it.

clicker

[FougaMagister]

There is little doubt that most European Flight Dispatchers/Ops Officers would like to have some industry-wide recognised qualification (logically under JAR). One overlooked obstacle might be the airlines/handling agents themselves, since they would have to start paying this personnel decently - for a change - in order to attract/retain their services :E

Cheers :cool:

[no sig]

İf the standard of qualification is at the appropriate level then indeed airlines will have to pay a salary that reflects a person holding the qualification. If airline managers stop for a moment and think about the role of their ops officers they will readily see that it makes commercial sense to have qualified and experienced people at the helm.

[5552N0426W]

:D
hi nosig
It's strange isn't it that we were all trying to get this sorted out in the 80's and yet here we are in the new century and really not any further forward.
Are we getting too old when we remember all this and nothing has happened?
Dispatched the Icelandair the other day and bumped into El Massey. She send her regards.
:ok:

[Epsilon minus]

Are GCNS still providing a distance learning ICAO7192D3 course and has it improved since its first launch?
EM

[no sig]

5552N0426W, isn't that the truth, in fact for me it goes back to 74-75 with the BGFOO as you will remember. Drop me a PM when you have time with your news.

EM

Yes the course is still available and the teething problems of years ago long since sorted, see their website for details.

[Epsilon minus]

I wonder if there is anyone out there that is running an account with GCNS for the 7192D3 course? If there is would you like to share your experiences and opinions with us.
My latest dealing with the SRG is that It is an inevitability that FOO/FD's in the UK will be required to be licenced by the CAA/EASA in the not to distant future
This is welcomed news. Time for all you GOPS PH to brush up on your D3 submissions. As to a trade FAA AD licence towards a 7192 licence I would be interested to hear your opinions.
Rgds
EM

[no sig]

EM

That is indeed interesting and welcome insight into SRG thinking on the subject.

As for a trade of FAA AD license, I don't believe the FAA license would or should be accepted in Europe, it is far too US specific; that said, perhaps some exemptions from parts of any new requirement might be given and generic subjects- Met theory as an example, but subjects like air law and regulations form such an important part of a FOO/Dispatcher training that a straight swap would be wrong.

[Byrna]

Hello,

I saw this thread about dispatching within the USA and it interested me as I'm looking into taking the dispatcher exams in Canada.

I spoke with Transport Canada and they told me that all the study material (handbooks etc...) are available via their website (some are purchased) and that there is no particular school per se which I need to attend and I can do a self-study course on my own and then pass the dispatcher exams. Is this possible? I don't have any flying experience but I do have a certain familiarity with commercial airline procedures.

Also, what kind of career track can I expect in Canada after I pass the dispatcher exams? I am 42 years old now - is this too old? I have some idea from having read info on the HR and Development Canada website but still would like professionals' opinions.

John

[Aloon]

Reading this thread, you may be a little confused!!!!

Posts are deletable..... And that is what's happened!!!

By me and others.....

So fill in the gaps as you please and enjoy!!!

Though it's not as enjoyable as it was before!!!

[no sig]

Byrna

You are of course aware that the Canadian flight dispatch licence requirements will be different to the US. Both have their own qualifications, but I do suspect that you might be able to do the FAA licence somewhere in Canada to. No flying experience required. I played a small part in setting the syllabus for the Canadian licence some 26 years ago and as I recall it was very much akin to the ICAO 7192 D3 standards rather than the US licence, what it today I am afraid I don't know.

Career wise you need advice from someone there, its been too long since I was dispatching in Canada for me to be able to advise. Try posting your questions on the Canada forum here on PPRUNE and you might get a response.

[phil@LFPG]

Byrna,

im in canada too and not from your old less than 40 ...
anyway there is at least two curses to get the help for the exams and federal licenses ...

i got the luck to get close the only college in quebec doing the curse ... it s 900 hours learning ... in the same time york university in two weeks and 1900 cad will help you too ... so i think there is also a college in BC doing it but this is not so easy and piece of cake transport canada told you ... weather and meteo is not so easy and limitations for aircraft is not easy to plus etops training ....

pm me if you need more infos and references for materials ...

for the job there are some but you will accept to be far from big cities most of the time ..

see you