CPL Qualifier Suggestions

[dwshimoda]

Hi all,

Apologies if this has been covered before, I did do a search, if it has, then feel free to ignore it!

I need to do my 300Nm cross-country qualifier in the next two weeks. I'm toying with several routes, but being based at Cranfield I am pretty much in the centre of the country, so it looks like a large triangle!

Anyone got any suggestions of routes that would be reasonably challenging, but also with some good scenery and decent airfields to drop in at, especially for lunch?

All replies appreciated!

DW.

[EGAC_Ramper]

Try out West towards Shobdun or even further such as Haverfordwest over the Brecon Beacons.


Regards:)

[TurboJ]

Surely, your FTO should be helping you with a route.

After all, thats what you are paying your money for, isn't it ?

I routed from Biggin Hill - Barton - Blackpool - Biggin Hill

An excellent route with plenty of challenges, especially the low level VFR corridor between Liverpool and Manchester.

Good luck !

[Whopity]

The 300mile Cross Country has nothing to do with an FTO! You need it before you can start the course. Why not go to Scotland, Ireland or France? You don't have to land back at base and its not realy a "Qualifier" its just an experience requirement. 300nm with landings at two other airfields in a day.

[TurboJ]

The 300nm route has everything to do with the FTO.

If my student was going to embark on his/her CPL x/c qualifier I would make sure its a route the school has approved. However, if the student wanted to go to a particular airfield then I would make sure the CFI was happy with the route and it would fulfil the requirements of having the CPL issued.

There would be nothing worse than the student returning from the CAA, refusing to accept the 300nm route and the instructor having said it was OK !!

Secondly, the qualifier does not have to be completed before you start the course. It is a requirement for licence issue and any flying completed on the course counts towards the total requirements for licence issue.

100 hrs PIC, 20hrs VFR to include 300nm route, 10hrs I/F, 5hrs night, totalling 200hrs for licence issue. (Modular)

PPL(A) holders need a total of 150hrs to start the CPL course.

TJ

[dwshimoda]

TJ,

Understand what you are saying, but I believe that the qualifier is not part of the CPL course (as you need to be PIC) and therefore is up to the students discretion. Certainly I haven't been suggested any routes, nor advised of any, and my school has been pretty thorough on everything else. Personally I don't think I need their input - I've successfully navigated yself to Le Touquet, Oostende, and various other places, so don't think I need their help - I was merely appealing to people for an interesting / fun route.

Like the sound of Barton though, I have a friend who lives near there, and the low-level route ia appealing, even if it is over Warrington! I could then go East to Humberside maybe, & back down. Need to get the ruler out & make sure the straight line distance is over 300Nm.

Thanks for the replies.

DW :ok:

[FlyingForFun]

TurboJ,

With respect, you are talking complete rubbish!

If students come to you and ask you for advice, then by all means feel free to give it to them. But it is not the responsibility of the PPL school, nor the CPL school - it is the responsibility of the student to do the 300nm x-country, and to ensure that it is long enough and has the required land-aways.

I did not consult with anyone before I did mine. In fact, I did not even consult with myself. I did a long x-country, which was intended to be a there-and-back, but needed to stop on the way for a toilet break. It was only later that I realised that I had inadvertently met the requirements, so that became my qualifying x-country. What's more, I did this before I'd even thought about which school I was going to use for my CPL (in fact, before I'd even started the written exams), so there was no way of getting any input from my school even if I'd asked them!

About the only input a school can really have, beyond what the student can see for themselves by looking at a map, is suggesting airfields which are interesting, especially if the student does not know the local area very well. There are plenty of pilots who can suggest interesting airfields to visit, interesting routes, and so on. Many of these are to be found in the clubhouse or the bar of your local GA airfield, others can be found here on PPRuNe, and still more at just about any flying school.

I have to admit that I find it quite surprising that dwshimoda can't think of anywhere to go by himself, but given that he has asked for help, that help can come from a number of sources. My suggestion would be to find the recent thread about Your Favourite GA Airfield (which I think got moved to the Private Flying forum), and pick out two airfields you like the sound of and haven't been to before. Doesn't matter where they are, as long as they are sufficiently far from home to qualify.

FFF
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[Cutoff]

I agree with FFF, although perhaps not so strongly.

But I did mine in the same way as FF, I just had a day where myself and a friend flew an aircraft each in realtively unplanned (not unplanned once we knew where we going you understand), but we did not know where to go until the day really. Again it was not meant to be the 300 mile qualifier, it just happened to be.

I went Sywell to Leicester, Leicester to Lydd, Lydd - Le Touquet, Le Touquet Manston and then Manston Sywell via Cambridge O/H....in a Rallye 880 by the way, so it took all day as well.

[dwshimoda]

FFF,

It's not that I can't think of anywhere to go - I have over 20 different airfiels in my log book so far - I was just seeing if anyone could suggest anything that would be "a bit different"

I have no problem with Class D transits, MATZ penetration or crossing the channel, hence the fact I said about something reasonably challenging to keep me occupied.

I have planned three different routes so far, partly wind dependent, but none of them are mega-exciting. This flight is a key part of my training, and a signifcant fuel burn - I want to get as much value out of it as possible. DW :ok:

[T668BFJ]

Take the advice of the other person earlier on.
If you can get away really early in the morning, then try. a stop at haverfordwest, and across to Kilkenny. Haverfordwest (A/G) Kilkenny(A/G)[Grass Runway with up/down slope]
Then return via North Wales maybe.

Will be long well above your 300nm route but a challenge:)

Additionally the 300nm c/x does have nothing to do with the school at all. It is the candidates responsibility completely. Further more the CAA could possibly take exception to the fact that a school had a hand in your qualifier. Its your licence application. Whilst it has been suggested that certain Integrated schools actually vet all of your solo flying and many cases make the decisions for you, the point of this is to test your judgement and true ability not just in flying but planning etc.

You just have to have it before you ask the CAA to issue the licence, so long as its 300nm it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever where it was you flew to, so long as it had 2 full stop landings not inlcuding your original departure airport.

[smith]

I thought you had to land back at the field of departure? Is this true? I remember a post a while back about a guy who could not get back into his home field and had to divert to another aerodrome for the night, thus disqualifying his QXC. Do you have to land back at the field of departue?

[Whopity]

TJThe 300nm route has everything to do with the FTO.
Only if you are on an Integrated course in which case they will tell you where to go!

I thought you had to land back at the field of departure? Is this true?
NO its NOT. Read JAR-FCL1.155(c)(2) as I stated above.300nm with landings at two other airfields in a day.

[AlexL]

its got nothing to do with your school, and frankly I'm amazed that anyone even thinks so. If you can't do a 300nm journey without someone holding your hand and planning it all for you then you're in the wrong game.
Anhyoo back to the origonal question
dwshimoda
Have you been to Compton Abbas? its beautiful and well worth a visit, and would fit nicely into a route including the isle of Wight, which also provides some stunning views.
Anything over Suffolk, Norfolk is quite relaxed - no airspace apart from some MATZ's but no LTMA to worry about. Old Buckenham, Fenland, Clacton if you fancy a short strip.
If you are heading East / South East North Weald is a good stop off if you route south of the zones, otherwise Duxford is always a possibilty but you may get distracted by all there is to see!

[TurboJ]

With respect, you are talking complete rubbish!

FFF - So the reputable UK FTO I work for have got it all wrong then ??

Their ops manual which gives a number of CPL x/c qualifier routes is complete rubbish and not worth the paper its written on.....?? OK I'll let them know.

I was in a similar position and completed my CPL qualifier without having to ask an internet forum, but I wouldn't allow a student to go off and do his own thing if the approved routes are in the ops manual.

Therefore, it has everything to do with the FTO, especially if I am the instructor and the student has completed a route of his own that turns out to be insufficient.......with respect.

Other opinions are not complete rubbish just because they differ from yours....with respect.

[FlyingForFun]

TurboJ,

Which course are your "students" doing with you when you are "instructing" them in the route to follow for their 300nm cross-country?

I would not say your ops manual is rubbish (certainly not without having seen it, in any case!) If the school has a number of routes which they recommend to their prospective CPL students or ex PPL students, that's absolutely fine. But since the pilot will not actually be a student on any recognised course with your school at the time they do this route (unless it is an integrated course, which I omitted from my original reply as I infered that DW is not on an integrated course), I don't see how they are obliged to follow your recommendations, nor how you are obliged to recommend anything. Any recommendations your school chooses to make are a bonus, so long as they do not detract from the development of the pilot's decision-making abilities.

FFF
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[Mark 1]

Most modular students have probably not had anything to do with an FTO prior to starting their CPLs.
I can understand having a suggested route that meets the criterior.
The JAR requirements are as stated above.
I had several to choose from in my log book, and nominated a run out to Leverkusen in Germany (the return was done in 2 legs so didn't count).

Good excuse for a trip over the water. How about Midden Zealand for lunch, up to Texel, and back across the North Sea? Or Channel Islands followed by somewhere in N.France, would fit the bill too.

[TurboJ]

FFF - Modular CPL -

Many students rock up to the school with none of the requirements to even start the course, never mind the requirements for licence issue. Therefore, the instructor is required to see them through to licence issue which also means referring to the ops manual for approved x/c qualifier routes. No students have challenged any recommendation, most just get on with it.

I am only treating my students, how I would have wanted to have been treated; Going the extra mile, in management speak !!

I am not 'instructing' them on the route to follow, I am simply following company procedures and the ops manual, which gives approved routes to follow.

TJ

[richarjm]

I chose to fly from Prestwick to Stapleford to carlisle to prestwick for mine, almost 600nm all in. It was a blast, learned a lot travelling that far, took a LOT of planning and I got to see a whole lot of country. I chose stapleford as I was doing my CPL/IR there and it gave me a chance to visit.
I would really recommend going on an adventure. Oban in Scotland is superb, many of the western isles are stunning and have GA friendly airports. Equally a french adventure, perhaps with a stop at Jersey. Great people at the GA side there. Some may disagree but I would say push yourself, go long haul and make it a trip you'll never forget. Ideally stay overnight, just make sure you get your two landings in one day!

[FougaMagister]

My x-country was Fort Pierce-Crystal River-Orlando (Sanford)-Fort Pierce, in a C152 - that took a while...

At the (modular) FTO were I was, there was NO recommended route (like FFF, I would see this as spoon-feeding the students), but as I was using my week-ends for hour building, the CFI asked one day why I wasn't planning a 300 nm x-country with 2 land aways so as to tick one of the boxes for the CPL (which at the time was still a year in the future!).

I do believe it's better for the student to do the whole planning of his/her CPL qualifying x-country him/herself - flight planning IS part of the whole exercise.

Cheers :cool:

P.S.: in Britain, I would recommend Caernafon for the North Wales scenery on the way and the approach over the bay.

[TurboJ]

I do believe it's better for the student to do the whole planning of his/her CPL qualifying x-country him/herself - flight planning IS part of the whole exercise.


So do I........however, the student is given a number of routes to choose from, from the company ops manual. I have never suggested I sit there and plan the route for the student.

[carbonfibre]

just a thought get a mix in from cranfield maybe something like this if you want to return same day


Cranfield - Teeside - Blackpool - Canaerfon - Shobdon - Cranfield

Cranfield - Swansea - Liverpool - Cranfield

Cranfiled - Shoreham - Newqauy - Glouster - cranfield

Cranfield - Norwich - Newcastle - Canaerfon - Cranfield

Fairly longish routes for a days fying plenty to see on them all, plenty of airports to choose in between too

[FougaMagister]

So do I........however, the student is given a number of routes to choose from, from the company ops manual. I have never suggested I sit there and plan the route for the student.

With all due respect, giving the student a number of routes to choose from is already doing part of the planning for them. I don't think there is any requirement for the company's ops manual to include a selection of CPL qualifying cross-country routes.

That's obviously not saying they shouldn't ask for advice or get their CPL x-country planning reviewed, but that's as far the instructor's involvement should go. My brief would be: "go plan a 300 nm x-country nav flight with 2 land aways, preferably with a number of different airspace and ATC services and preferably as a triangular route (to make things a bit harder). Come back for approval when you have finished planning".

Cheers :cool:

[FlyingForFun]

Notwithstanding FougaMagister's last post, which is subjective (I agree with him, but I can see a good counter-argument too), I think, TurboJ, the reason we are disagreeing is this quote:Many students rock up to the school with none of the requirements to even start the course, never mind the requirements for licence issueThis is an entirely different situation to that which DW is presenting, where he is actively using his resources (including PPRuNe) to ensure that he meets all the requirements before turning up at the school, thus (totally correctly) negating the need for assistance from his future school (which, as I said already, he may not yet have even chosen).Therefore, the instructor is required to see them through to licence issue I'm not sure that he is - at least, not by the JARs. The instructor's responsibility is to prepare the student for the test. The student has the responsibility of ensuring that he meets all the other criteria. There may be a requirement for the school to check these and point out any deficiencies - certainly for course pre-entry requirements, although I'm not sure about license application requirements. If the student is incapable of doing this, or is too lazy to do the research to find out what the requirements are beforehand, then by all meansGo the extra mile, in management speak !! In fact, your employer might even require you to do this to ensure good customer relations. But it is a customer relations issue, not a JAR requirement.

FFF
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[dwshimoda]

without having to ask an internet forum

Implying what exactly? All I thought I'd do is see if anyone had any suggestions for something a bit different - you imply I need help to decide, and sidetrack the discussion from an inoccuous request.

Thanks to all those who have made suggestions - they were all appreciated. I'm currently looking at Cranfield - Cardiff - Hawarden - Doncaster - Cranfield, which I know exceeds the requirement, but should let me meet up with friends and my parents at various stages. Just a few more ATPL exams now, and then the hard work can really begin :ok:

[Cutoff]

'So do I........however, the student is given a number of routes to choose from, from the company ops manual. I have never suggested I sit there and plan the route for the student.'

Isn't presenting already determined routes part of the planning process itself, removes the need for the student to at least add up and read a map in the first place so therefore this is removing some of the planning element.

[TurboJ]

Isn't presenting already determined routes part of the planning process itself, removes the need for the student to at least add up and read a map in the first place so therefore this is removing some of the planning element.

I agree entirely. However, if the company has decided that the CPL x/c qualifier routes to be followed are the ones published in the ops manual, would you allow a student to take a company aircraft on a non approved route, not published in the ops manual ?

What would the implications be on the instructor if an incident took place and the instructor was found to be allowing a student to operate outside the ops manual ?

FFF - I agree with the comments of your last post -

[slayer]

Hi everyone, just a quick question!
I’m planning on doing my 300nm cross country qualifier in the next few weeks, could someone please tell me if there is a form or any documentation that needs to be completed/signed off by people at my land aways (like on the PPL qualifier) or are the log book entries good enough?
Thanks very much

[Mercenary Pilot]

Nah, just put it in the remarks section of your logbook.

[dwshimoda]

Slayer,

I kep the landing fee receipts as a back up, but otherwise just documented each flight in the notes section of my logbook, for example, "CPL Qualifier leg 1, 120Nm" and then totalled the three together at the end of the three legs.

I did get told that you are supposed to take on fuel at one destination, but I have never heard this before, nor is it in Lassors, so I don't believe it to be true.

Enjoy your flight!

DW

[SD.]

Under FAA reg's on some qualifiers you have to be sole occupant of the aircraft, is this the case for CAA CPL qualifier?

FWIW My longest xc is San Diego to Freeport (Grand Bahamas) and back again in a PA28 :D

[EGAC_Ramper]

Yep as mentioned I just noted it down in the info section and stapled in the landing fee reciepts as added insurance.

Enjoy your trip!:ok:

Regards

[slayer]

All sounds nice and straight forward. Thanks for the replies everyone:ok:

[rwhites]

when i did mine i got a stamp in my log book at one airfield for luck.
you have to book in and out of most airfields any way, so if the caa want to find out they can tell if you have been there or not. if you realy want file a flight plan (its not hard:8 ).

[BEagle]

"However, if the company has decided that the CPL x/c qualifier routes to be followed are the ones published in the ops manual, would you allow a student to take a company aircraft on a non approved route, not published in the ops manual ?"

What a distressing nanny state comment. Why on earth should there be 'approved routes' in the 'ops manual' which pilots should be obliged to fly?

[Hufty]

You can fly whatever route you want - as long as it meets the requirements. No need to prove it either - the logbook is a legal document so has to be correct. If they don't believe you flew the cross country you claim, then they would have to call into question EVERYTHING you claim on your application. Just fill in your logbook and post it off - the CAA will look at it and then send you your blue book!

Somebody mentioned having to take on fuel at one destination - not true although flying 300nm in your C152 it might be a good idea to stop for petrol :=