R44 fatal accident - tail boom failure?

[rotorspeed]

Rather strange and tragic report on the NTSB site, abbreviated here:

"On May 1, 2006, about 1430 Pacific daylight time, a Robinson R44 Raven II, Canadian registration C-FICL, impacted desert terrain near Desert Center, California. The Canadian certificated commercial pilot and the passenger were fatally injured; the helicopter was destroyed. The cross-country ferry flight departed Zamperini Field Airport (TOA), Torrance, California, at 1305

The accident pilot had taken delivery of the new helicopter from the Robinson Helicopter Company factory in Torrance on the day of the accident. The pilot and passenger, who were employed by Zimmer Air Service, Inc., departed from Torrance with an intended final destination of Blenheim, Ontario, Canada.

Two ground witnesses saw the helicopter just before it impacted the ground. They observed that the tail boom had separated from the fuselage.

The helicopter was a Robinson R44 Raven II, and had a total airframe time of 4.0 hours when it left the factory the day of the accident. The tachometer read 5.2 hours at the accident scene.

The on-scene examination revealed that the helicopter and separated components came to rest about 200 yards south of interstate 10. The accident site was 16 nm east of Desert Center, and 18 nm west of Blythe.

The tail boom was located 100 feet west of the main wreckage. The tail boom had separated just aft of the main fuselage attach point. The tail rotor blades and tail rotor transmission were attached to the tail boom with minor impact damage."

Where the tail boom separated doesn't sound quite like a failure following mast bumping/MR blade hitting tail boom scenario, but it is hard to think of any other cause. Any views/knowledge?

[jetflite]

One would assume that it would be Mast bumping/MR connection with tail boom. .but you would also state a commercial pilot knows of these dangers, unless inflicted by other means. . . or maybe it's as simple as a maintenance fault from the factory...and the tail boom just held in for the 4 hours..then seperated..who knows... condolences to the families. sad.
I'm interested to know the investigation result or other ppruners comments ?

[Flashover999]

Wonder wh they were down that way if they were going Canada as its the complete opposite direction.?
I flew from Blythe to Palm Spings at this time last year and I can remember it being extremly windy and very bummpy around that area, getting much worse as you approached Palm Springs and Banning pass. We had to lay-over for 2 days before we could get through the Banning pass due to the strong/turbulence. I wonder if they got into Turbulence and the Low G environment. Going to be interesting to see the weather reports and PIREP's for the day. Not many people fly around there unless quite high (Fixed wingers).
Thoughts to families.

Flash

[rotorspeed]

"An aviation routine weather report (METAR) for BLH was issued at 1453. It stated: winds from 170 degrees at 8 knots; visibility 10 miles; skies clear; temperature 38 degrees Celsius"

Not particularly windy. Where do tail booms tend to fail after R44 mast bumping? "Just aft of the main fuselage attach point" or further back?

[Grainger]

You'd expect the sever point to be much further back in the case of a boom chop from mast bumping. I don't see how the main rotor blade could flex far enough to sever the boom so far forward.

Besides, the report said "separated" rather than "severed", and there would have been clear impact damage from the main rotor, with corresponding damage on the rotor blade.

Very sad accident either way :(

[Brian Abraham]

Once the blades have seperated from the mast they are free to go anywhere. My only direct experience of mast bumping was observation of a Huey that sufferred same and tail boom was chopped off about six inches aft of the tail boom attatchment - and as if it had been a hot knife through butter it was such a clean "cut". And with 17 on board at 1000 - 1500 feet. Result of a zoom climb I might add.

[Flashover999]

Do any of you know any more about this accident? The thread went quiet soon after, has there been any further investigation or results?
Flash

[whirlydude]

I tried a few days ago to find out more but could find nothing . For a student or low hours pilot it makes you think hard . For two experienced pilots in a brand new ship and this accident occurs :confused:

[MLH]

I've been watching for the NTSB to update this accident report. I ferried an R44 from Robinson two weeks after this one and was informed that Robinson had added an additional requirement to their ferry flight rules. They now require that the flight controls be removed from the passenger side if that person is not rated. They may have reason to believe that the non-rated passenger was flying the aircraft at the time of the accident.

Other thoughts:

The preliminary report says that approx 1.2 hours had elapsed between departing KTOA and the accident site 16nm east of Desert Center, 18 nm west of Blythe KBLH, that's a distance of 165 nm.
Hobbs said 5.2 hours, and the ship left Robinson with 4.0. Blythe Metar said the winds were from the south at 8 knots (no tail wind to speak of at the time) with an OAT of 38 C. In the absence of a good tail wind, these guys were traveling at quite an average indicated airspeed, 165/1.2 = 137.5 knots. Published VNE is 123kts @ 40 C correcting for temperature.

I believe that the route though this area is the one Robinson prefers due to lack of high mountains, the destination was eastern Canada if I'm not mistaken.

[13snoopy]

Do any of you know any more about this accident? The thread went quiet soon after, has there been any further investigation or results?
Flash
I have heard (and take it for what it's worth) that POSSIBLY one of the pilots (not sure which one was actually flying the ship) possibly had a faint/stroke/heart attack and this caused him to slump forward against the cyclic, resulting in an obvious low-g pushover scenario from which the other pilot simply couldn't recover in time before the rotor chopped off the tail boom.
Again, it's pure speculation at this point but I have heard this from numerous sources here in the U.S.

[Grainger]

. . . added an additional requirement to their ferry flight rules. They now require that the flight controls be removed from the passenger side if that person is not rated.:confused: This has always been a requirement, hasn't it ???

[helmet fire]

Sorry to hijack for a moment...
And with 17 on board at 1000 - 1500 feet
Thats one heavy and very crowded Huey Brian A. We talking 214?
Must have been a difficult sight to see the loss of so many. Where was it?

[Big Bucks Bernie]

... Robinson had added an additional requirement to their ferry flight rules. They now require that the flight controls be removed from the passenger side if that person is not rated.

Here (http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/2006-2-5_Close_call_in_helo.wmv) is a video and the corresponding CAA Incident Report (http://www.caa.co.za/resource%20center/accidents%20&%20incid/reports/2005/0404.pdf) clearly showing why the dual controls should always be removed if an unrated passenger is to occupy the front seat next to the pilot of the helicopter (and this would apply not only to Robinson R22 or R44 Helicopters, but any other make and model of helicopter too).
Luckily, in this case, the aborted landing remained an incident and didn't turn into an accident. Nevertheless, it remains a very hair-raising video to watch.

[rotorspin]

sorry to be a typical ppruner - but it says his right knee pushed the centre column...

even removing the dual controls would not have prevented this? :confused:

[Big Bucks Bernie]

sorry to be a typical ppruner - but it says his right knee pushed the centre column...

even removing the dual controls would not have prevented this? :confused:
True. Maybe a short passenger briefing before the flight could have helped prevent what we saw in the video. Who knows?
All I know is, I always do a quick passenger briefing with all my passengers, once the dual controls have been removed. Sure, it isn't a 100% guarantee either, but if the passengers at least are aware of where the crucial controls are and what they should try not to bump into, well then maybe it might just help prevent something like what we saw in the video from re-occurring.

[topendtorque]

A/S seems a tad high, I wouldn't discount the turbulence in an area that it's suggested is known for it, with the newbie owner flying along - encounters some clear air tubulence - dust devil or whatever, they can go higher than 6000 and be violent up there in the desert here in oz- he panics - mate wakes up just a bit too late - ?????
certainly IF they encountered such scenario at a high power setting it would not help.

BA, I got to hear about your story from a friend, now deceased, who happened to be flying a mirage on finals when the good old aussies - after some head scratching and some time later - sent up a second machine to test fly the same scenario.

The test pilot was a friend of my mate, result was - ahem! well - predictable in hindsight - maybe foresight too - not the best thing that my mate reckoned he had seen.

[acreager]

Wonder wh they were down that way if they were going Canada as its the complete opposite direction.?
I flew from Blythe to Palm Spings at this time last year and I can remember it being extremly windy and very bummpy around that area, getting much worse as you approached Palm Springs and Banning pass. We had to lay-over for 2 days before we could get through the Banning pass due to the strong/turbulence. I wonder if they got into Turbulence and the Low G environment. Going to be interesting to see the weather reports and PIREP's for the day. Not many people fly around there unless quite high (Fixed wingers).
Thoughts to families.

Flash
Typically for Northeast destinations in Canada, Robinson will assign you a flight plan taking you south of the Rockies and then northeast to your destination.

In Frank Robinson's "Requirements for Pilots Ferrying Helicopters from RHC Factory" letter, it is stated "RHC reserves the right to delay the departure due to weather and to specify the flight route in the event the intended route submitted by the PIC is deemed to be unsafe by RHC."

If you look at the destination in the report, Blenheim, Ontario Canada, the closest airport is Leamington, Ontario (CLM2).

A direct course from Torrance to Leamington would take you straight through the Rockies. I am pretty confident Robinson probably instructed them to fly Easterly past Blythe, through the southwest, and then probably northeast after crossing through Texas.

[MLH]

Big Bucks Bernie, That video reminds me of an accident involving an R44 and a tow platform connected to a lawn tractor. The pilot touched down with the skids off the rear, bumped the stinger and over corrected pushing forward cyclic, the MR blades cut through the "A" frame hitch. No injuries, not even to the person seated on the tractor at the time.:eek:

[FLYINHY]

I HAVE DETAILS ABOUT THE ACCIDENT, BUT I WANT TO KNOW HOW MANY HOURS RHC HAS TO TEST FLY THEIR SHIP BEFORE THEY GIVE IT TO THEIR CUSTOMER. I HEARD IT WAS UP TO 20 HOURS BUT INITIALLY 5HRS, BUT THIS HELICOPTER ONLY HAD 4 HRS ON IT BEFORE IT LEFT TORRENCE, CA. PUTTING THAT INTO CONSIDERATION WITH WARMUP TIME THE SHIP WAS NOT EVEN IN THE AIR AN HOUR. IF THEY HAD DONE 1 MORE HOUR OF TESTING THE MACHINE WOULD HAVE BLOWN UP AT THE FACTORY NOT AT IN THE AIR KILLING 2 GOOD MEN.
THE NTSB HAS CLOSED THE CASE BUT THE FAA HAS REOPENED IT, SITING DIFFERENCES. THE CYCLIC CONTROL WAS NOT TOUCHED BY THE PASSENGER.
THE SHIP WAS STOPPED IN AIR AND FELL OUT OF THE SKY THE TAILBOOM WAS SEPARATED BY THE FORCE OF THE BLADES COMING AROUND AND ENTERING THE COCKPIT. DEADSTOP.
WHY DO YOU THINK THAT HAPPENED?
ROBINSON ALSO PUT UP AN SERVICE BULLETIN ON HIS WEBSITE ASKING TO INSPECT YOUR BLADES EVERY 100 HOURS. DATED JUNE 6,2006 HUH:uhoh:
THE MEN FLYING TO CANADA PASSED THE AUTOSPY REPORT NO HEALTH PROBLEMS. THE PILOT ALSO HAD OVER 7500 HRS EXPERIENCE IN HELICOPTERS. AND HAD BEEN FLYING ALL HIS LIFE.
YOU TELL ME WHAT WENT WRONG!!!!!

[13snoopy]

I HAVE DETAILS ABOUT THE ACCIDENT, BUT I WANT TO KNOW HOW MANY HOURS RHC HAS TO TEST FLY THEIR SHIP BEFORE THEY GIVE IT TO THEIR CUSTOMER. I HEARD IT WAS UP TO 20 HOURS BUT INITIALLY 5HRS, BUT THIS HELICOPTER ONLY HAD 4 HRS ON IT BEFORE IT LEFT TORRENCE, CA. PUTTING THAT INTO CONSIDERATION WITH WARMUP TIME THE SHIP WAS NOT EVEN IN THE AIR AN HOUR. IF THEY HAD DONE 1 MORE HOUR OF TESTING THE MACHINE WOULD HAVE BLOWN UP AT THE FACTORY NOT AT IN THE AIR KILLING 2 GOOD MEN.
THE NTSB HAS CLOSED THE CASE BUT THE FAA HAS REOPENED IT, SITING DIFFERENCES. THE CYCLIC CONTROL WAS NOT TOUCHED BY THE PASSENGER.
THE SHIP WAS STOPPED IN AIR AND FELL OUT OF THE SKY THE TAILBOOM WAS SEPARATED BY THE FORCE OF THE BLADES COMING AROUND AND ENTERING THE COCKPIT. DEADSTOP.
WHY DO YOU THINK THAT HAPPENED?
ROBINSON ALSO PUT UP AN SERVICE BULLETIN ON HIS WEBSITE ASKING TO INSPECT YOUR BLADES EVERY 100 HOURS. DATED JUNE 6,2006 HUH:uhoh:
THE MEN FLYING TO CANADA PASSED THE AUTOSPY REPORT NO HEALTH PROBLEMS. THE PILOT ALSO HAD OVER 7500 HRS EXPERIENCE IN HELICOPTERS. AND HAD BEEN FLYING ALL HIS LIFE.
YOU TELL ME WHAT WENT WRONG!!!!!
At the risk of continuing a sham, who told you that the NTSB "closed the case"??????? That is absurd and a lie. The investigation has barely "opened" and no data or results have been announced yet. Stop telling or repeating falsehoods. The NTSB has not closed the case. It takes sometimes a year or more for the NTSB to end their investigation and report their final verdicts.
I'd say you're a Robbie hater and nothing more.:=

[FLYINHY]

Exactly, It Should Be A Year Before The Case Is Solved I Was Shocked Myself To Hear That The Ntsb Had Closed The Case. I HAVE A PERSONAL STAKE IN THIS I WAS TOLD DIRECTLY. That Only Means They Have Found What Their Are Looking For, Or Botched The Investigation. As For The Robi Hater I Feel You Have No Idea What Your Talking About. Robinson Has A Great Helicopter It Just Needs Some Work To Make It Safer For All Pilots. (snoopy) I Don't Know Where You Get Your Info From But You Got I Heck Of An Imagination.
Does Anyone Have Any Worthy Theories With The Information I Gave Above What Happened To This Ship!!

[InducedDrag]

.....BUT THIS HELICOPTER ONLY HAD 4 HRS ON IT BEFORE IT LEFT TORRENCE, CA. PUTTING THAT INTO CONSIDERATION WITH WARMUP TIME THE SHIP WAS NOT EVEN IN THE AIR AN HOUR. .....!

I have been watching this as well. I was out at the factory a week after this happened. I am concerned about some of your comments especially the one above.

The hobbs on the R44 is activated by the collective. Therefore, the ground runs do not count towards the hobbs. Some operators add a oil pressure hobbs for billing, but they de not come from the factory that way. So all of the time on the ship was in the air.

I hope you are sincere in your pursuit of the truth of this horrible accident and that you are not just stirring up trouble. My thoughts go out to those that have lost loved ones in accidents like this.

[rotorspin]

Rumours, whispers, angry chants and more rumours......

My thoughts go out to the families effected by this loss of life - this is seriously tragic stuff...

Look forward to receiving some info from official sources so that we can all learn from this..

:(

[Heli_Sticktime]

Flyinhy, if you know something why don't you share it with us. This is an area where we discuss aviation related matters and learn from them. There's no point or meaning in saying that you know something but you don't share it.
Can you back it up? I find the rumours worrying but there are just that, rumours, until you explain or substantiate them
HS

[Hughesy]

How bad are the Rockies for turbulance?
It seems strange to me that a manafacturer would not allow its product to be flown in certain areas. Any aircraft which is airworthy should be able to be flown in most conditions, for which is was designed for.
It would be like a car company saying that it's product is fine, but we strongly advise not to use it on a motorway as at top speed the flux-capacitor will fail.
Is Robinson the only company to stipulate which way a machine departs it factory?

Sympathy to friends, collegues and family of the deceased

Hughesy

[InducedDrag]

I have made the ferry trip one time. I agree that the ferry route (I-10), is the best way to go. This is the southern most route. It keeps your highest point of the route aroud 5500' and the highest airport around 5000.

Any further north puts you into the jet steam where the winds are VERY strong. Anywhere from 40 to sometimes aproaching 100 at altitude.

I did it in Jan in a R22. Even as far down as the I-10 route takes you I still had a leg where I had 50kt tailwinds. It was a real windy trip!

It got real rough for me coming out of Texas.

For my last 600 mile leg, all the way Alabama to the east coast there was not a single general avaition aircraft that I ever heard on the radio. The people looked at me like I was nuts at my fuel stops for flying in those conditions. I had a new found respect for the 22 after that trip.

It was a long day at 65kts

[FLYINHY]

Heli_Sticktime- I can't say on this forum what is going on because i don't know who anybody is you could be working for Robinson for all i know. the investigation as I said is still ongoing throught the FAA. Its not as simply as you might think. This was a Brand NEW HELICOPTER that BROKE up in flight. cruising home to Canada. the flight plan was made by Robinson and followed. this is the same flight plan the same pilot had made 5 times before picking up other Robinson helicopters in the past years. He was very experienced pilot, and did crop dusting as well. The helicopter stopped in air I don't know if i should tell you this. but eventually this is going to be common knowledge. i looking for information, you people are helicopter pilots or mechanics or just for the love of it you know what to look for. why did this helicopter fall out of the sky? question: if the pitch link was broken and found mile from site.(what would cause pitch link to break) one revolution of the blade to the cockpit. one blade showed upward and downward coning, the other downward.what would cause that . read above, no medical, no interference. just cruising.
still does anyone know how long the helicopter has to be tested at Robinson before they let it go to the owner?
i would like answers and also inform others of safety issues i'm not a robinson hater or helicopter hater in general. i just want people to be safe in the air so nobody dies.
http://www.casa.gov.au/airworth/awb/62/002.pdf

induced drag- could you explain yourself more to me. because i have a report from the FAA . FAA Advisor Circular 20-95 that assumes 10.5% of operating time will be in autorotation, run-up ,or shut-down.
tell me if the heli was 5.2 hrs total engine time. 4 hrs on engine before take off. leaving 1.2 hrs flight. calculate the distance. they crashed approx. 3 mins before blythe airport. flight time. 18nm w of blythe.

[Practice Auto 3,2,1]

Most common for new A/C to have between 4 and 8 hours on the Datcon when they are 'new'. Very rarely have I seen one that has more than 10 hours when recieved (except for ENG ships).

[Heli_Sticktime]

FLYINHY thanks for the post, it does seem very strange from what you explain, and worrying. I don't work for RH or the CASA or FAA, I'm in South Africa. The link you posted doesn't seem to work, any chance you can see if you can update it. I'd like to read what they have to say. What has RH had to say about the accident?

[FLYINHY]

what is the protocol, testing procedure of these "new" helicopters?
has anyone been able to go through Robinson factory and see how the ships are made? What safety inspections are in place?

site is update. even more trouble some

by the way RH never an apology, condolences, has become a little snake in a hen house, quiet but sneaky. ready for the kill, but the hen is ready to attack, with help. thanks.

[InducedDrag]

induced drag- could you explain yourself more to me. because i have a report from the FAA . FAA Advisor Circular 20-95 that assumes 10.5% of operating time will be in autorotation, run-up ,or shut-down.
tell me if the heli was 5.2 hrs total engine time. 4 hrs on engine before take off. leaving 1.2 hrs flight. calculate the distance. they crashed approx. 3 mins before blythe airport. flight time. 18nm w of blythe.


I think you are missing my point or I may have misunderstood you. I thought you only felt the 44 had 1 hour of flight testing at Robinson with the rest of the hobbs time (3 hrs) being ground runs.

What I meant was that if it have 4 hrs on the ship, then it had 4 hrs of flight testing. Usually I hear the number of hours testing is around 5 hrs..


The Hobbs on the R44 is NOT an engine hobbs. It is activated by a switch on the collective. It only runs when the collective is off the stop. Therefore you could run at 100% on the ground for hours and not click a 10th on the hobbs. This is how the ship was certified.

[CaptDean]

I have been to the Robinson factory at least 5 times. I have had two full tours of the facility and I have ferried two new Robinsons away from the factory to Canada.
The first new ship had 5.2 hours on it and my memory is the second was around the same. As stated above; that is 5.2 hours of testing in the air. During the Robinson Safety course I flew for 1.1 hours with a Robinson test pilot. We actually used Frank Robinsons own ship as the course was full and a one hour flight was part of the deal and they were short of helicopters. It was the same as all the rest.
After touring the factory I have even more confidence in the Robinson product. The pace is state of the art or better, clean and organized. If you have not seen a 500,000 square foot CNC precision factory before it is worth the trip alone.
I have no idea what brought down that R-44, if you have the knowledge you say you do then just tell the story.

[Ignition Override]

Pardon me for bringing this up, but was there another US accident with a Robinson in the last week?

I have never been fortunate enough to train to fly a helicopter, but have worked with guys who have and wish that I had the money for such training. One is a reserve Instructor on the Bell Jet Ranger with the US Navy VT in Pensacola. Another guy flies part-time in Louisiana and reportedly earns a very good salary.

[FLYINHY]

NTSB reported SEA06FA159
R44, destroyed after colliding with ocean waters aprox. 1mile west of Camp Rilea, Warrenton, Oregon. The refueled in Astoria, Oregon heading towards Long Beach. Just another example of a well made piece of machinery. can't wait too hear this one too. i'd guess oh pilot error, no wait the weather.http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20060817X01202&key=1

[FLYINHY]

induced drag- So, correct me if i'm wrong but what your saying is that when they test these hobbs they test with the collective on 100% and do not leave the ground. so this is just engine time of 4 hours. because the 1.2hrs was when the pilot was in control of the new ship. that what the records indicate. also, again tell me if i've been misinformed on this too, but i also was told this was an unreliable source that the new ship are tested in flight by the pilots that come for training. can anyone expand on this?
what ships do they use?

[HELOFAN]

I am saddened to see any loss of life, always sympathies to all those affected.
Also Saddened to see helo's down but worse to see another Robinson involved.
Is it just that we are getting tunnel visioned and focused on the Robinson that we are not seeing or taking notice of other small helo's like the Schweizer or are they simply just not crashing as often.
I am not seeing it. I am not seeing student involved crashes or experienced pilot crashes in the S300, not 47.

What am I missing?

I have tried to be silent with this issue but I cant hold back from commenting anymore & for that I applogise ahead of time.

Where can stats like comparisons or even reports showing say ( this is gonna open up the can ) the ammount of Schweizers crashed since in service & numbers in service.
Then compare to the Robinson, I dont know about anyone else but they seem to be increasing in frequncy at an alarming rate.
I am having a serious issue trying to at least keep some sort open mind towards this a/c.

Well it would be nice to see the outcome of the report but 30 mins after the metar stated overcast at 400 ft, they crashed in to water.:(
Why would you not put down ASAP and wait it out? Could this not be possible , can the overcast just swallow you instantly like that?

Could have been a mech failure Numerous smaller pieces of helicopter wreckage were recovered from the water, however a majority of the wreckage has not been located would make one think it was all very sudden ( not forced landing due to no vis ).
But also a high speed indicates the pilots either were going for a window in the cloud or simply hit the water ( lost depth reference )...gauges... altimeter, airspeed etc?
Totally disoreintated?
I am just assuming ( yeah I know, making an ass of u and me ) that the little peices is an indication of a high airspeed/groundspeed not a slow one.

If you were in the soup would'nt the airspeed be very low?
Would there still be Numerous small pieces found if forced to settle in water & survival rate be better?

Also...why No flight plan was filed for the cross-country flight?
Should'nt there always be a flight plan filed or was it not required.

I really am looking for some comments/answering not insults.
There was an light fixed that crashed here in the similar circumstances not so long ago, and I am just trying to understand how and why.
Thanks.

:sad: HF

Heliport/moderators, if this post is inappropriate no offense willl be taken if you remove it.

[InducedDrag]

induced drag- So, correct me if i'm wrong but what your saying is that when they test these hobbs they test with the collective on 100% and do not leave the ground. so this is just engine time of 4 hours. because the 1.2hrs was when the pilot was in control of the new ship. that what the records indicate. also, again tell me if i've been misinformed on this too, but i also was told this was an unreliable source that the new ship are tested in flight by the pilots that come for training. can anyone expand on this?
what ships do they use?


I think you are misunderstanding me. This is a small point and really not important in the big picture.

What I am saying is simply:

The Hobbs meter in the ship only operates when the ship is flying as it is activated by a switch on the collective.....period

So all 4 hours were airbourne and not ground running....Not that this matters....

[InducedDrag]

What am I missing?

I have tried to be silent with this issue but I cant hold back from commenting anymore & for that I applogise ahead of time.

Where can stats like comparisons or even reports showing say ( this is gonna open up the can ) the ammount of Schweizers crashed since in service & numbers in service.
Then compare to the Robinson, I dont know about anyone else but they seem to be increasing in frequncy at an alarming rate.
I am having a serious issue trying to at least keep some sort open mind towards this a/c.

.


I think it is just a function of pure numbers.... This is a quote off of schweizers website:


The Model 269 Series helicopters, (including the piston-powered Model 300C and 300CBi and the turbine-powered 333) have been in series prodcution since the mid-1960's. Nearly 3,000 269 Series helicopters have been produced.



So including all the 269's 300 AND 333's almost 3000 have been produced.

Now this is going back to the 60's. Of those ships, some smaller fraction are still flying.

Now take Robinson. Off thier website, on 1/9/06 the 5000th R22 was sold. I would say that a greater portion of the 22's are still flying then the 269 series due to the 12yr overhaul and the fact that the fleet is much younger. Less ships written off or fallen in to dis-repair

the R22 alone has in 20years outsold 2 to 1 a ship that has been around for 40years.

Now add the R44 in the mix and you are talking about aproaching 7000 helicopters produced.!! That is alot of ships.

Just plain statistics that these ships are involved in more accidents....

Compare that to the Jet Ranger and since the mid sixties, 4400 206's have been produced. (Not including OH58's)

In 2000 and 2001 the company delivered a whopping 14 ships, and in 2002 it jumped to 20.

So long story short....with the numbers of ships Robinson is putting out.....they are simply more likely to be involved.

This condition is ever increasing as Robinson continues to dominate and gain even more market share.

[HELOFAN]

hmm now if a scale was applied to even it out ( number of ships produced over time ) would the number of ships per production over time be even or at a higher/lower rate?

[MLH]

[quote=FLYINHY]

THE SHIP WAS STOPPED IN AIR AND FELL OUT OF THE SKY THE TAILBOOM WAS SEPARATED BY THE FORCE OF THE BLADES COMING AROUND AND ENTERING THE COCKPIT.

All of the accidents I have heard of in which MR blades have departed their normal plane of rotation and contacted the cockpit were due to a Low-G situation. Wouldn't a MR hub, blade or linkage failure more likely result in parts traveling out and away from the airframe?

How does one know for certain that the non-rated passenger was not on the controls?

[topendtorque]

How does one know for certain that the non-rated passenger was not on the controls?

Perhaps also the "non-rated????" pax (bless him and the driver) may even have had some stick time elswhere. what was his interest in being on board etc?

Just seems to me that no-one has thrown in eye of newt to the cauldron despite all the chanting and shouting that's a bin goin-on. we do really need a bit more giff and less gaff.

What did the witnesses say - how long it was falling, how far away were they, what angle of elevation from their position, etc? was it inverted, spinning, even??

The link to CASA is old news, with by now a photo of a fairly famous hat, and as someone else said if it is suggested that the rotating bits came adrift, up there, then they would be scattered far and wide. There's plenty of ways a tail boom can be dragged off or severed off, we don't even know which yet.

One thing that I am finding mighty strange if old mate FLYINHI don't mind - Bro - where'd you get that tag from - induction or atmospheric?

[Steve76]

Regarding Page 1:
Helmet Fire - I would assume Brian had people shooting at him or his pax, hence seating wasn't an issue.
Brian: Thoughts and regards to you for yesterdays celebration and to all the other great Veteran Capt's I once worked with.

[Brian Abraham]

Thanks for the compliments Steve, called many things but never "great", quite the reverse in fact. None of us left now. Never saw Helmet Fires post till now and you are right, 13 X 90lb Asians neither weigh much or take up much space (and no seats).

[13snoopy]

I am saddened to see any loss of life, always sympathies to all those affected.
Also Saddened to see helo's down but worse to see another Robinson involved.
Is it just that we are getting tunnel visioned and focused on the Robinson that we are not seeing or taking notice of other small helo's like the Schweizer or are they simply just not crashing as often.
I am not seeing it. I am not seeing student involved crashes or experienced pilot crashes in the S300, not 47.
What am I missing?
I have tried to be silent with this issue but I cant hold back from commenting anymore & for that I applogise ahead of time.
Where can stats like comparisons or even reports showing say ( this is gonna open up the can ) the ammount of Schweizers crashed since in service & numbers in service.
Then compare to the Robinson, I dont know about anyone else but they seem to be increasing in frequncy at an alarming rate.
I am having a serious issue trying to at least keep some sort open mind towards this a/c.
Well it would be nice to see the outcome of the report but 30 mins after the metar stated overcast at 400 ft, they crashed in to water.:(
Why would you not put down ASAP and wait it out? Could this not be possible , can the overcast just swallow you instantly like that?
Could have been a mech failure Numerous smaller pieces of helicopter wreckage were recovered from the water, however a majority of the wreckage has not been located would make one think it was all very sudden ( not forced landing due to no vis ).
But also a high speed indicates the pilots either were going for a window in the cloud or simply hit the water ( lost depth reference )...gauges... altimeter, airspeed etc?
Totally disoreintated?
I am just assuming ( yeah I know, making an ass of u and me ) that the little peices is an indication of a high airspeed/groundspeed not a slow one.
If you were in the soup would'nt the airspeed be very low?
Would there still be Numerous small pieces found if forced to settle in water & survival rate be better?
Also...why No flight plan was filed for the cross-country flight?
Should'nt there always be a flight plan filed or was it not required.
I really am looking for some comments/answering not insults.
There was an light fixed that crashed here in the similar circumstances not so long ago, and I am just trying to understand how and why.
Thanks.
:sad: HF
Heliport/moderators, if this post is inappropriate no offense willl be taken if you remove it.
The comparison you want made is simple enough:
Just take the scores of flight schools that use Robinsons versus the few that use the S 300. I'd say it is at least a 15 or 20-1 ratio. Maybe more. Robbie's are the hottest selling helis on the planet, and how many 300's did Schwietzer sell in comparison?? Not many. THERE'S your comparison.
If 500 red cars are on the road compared to 20 black cars, in the law of averages what color car is gonna wreck more?
One more thing, I do believe that the R44 has the lowest engine failure rate of any helicopter, ever.

[13snoopy]

Exactly, It Should Be A Year Before The Case Is Solved I Was Shocked Myself To Hear That The Ntsb Had Closed The Case. I HAVE A PERSONAL STAKE IN THIS I WAS TOLD DIRECTLY. That Only Means They Have Found What Their Are Looking For, Or Botched The Investigation. As For The Robi Hater I Feel You Have No Idea What Your Talking About. Robinson Has A Great Helicopter It Just Needs Some Work To Make It Safer For All Pilots. (snoopy) I Don't Know Where You Get Your Info From But You Got I Heck Of An Imagination.
Does Anyone Have Any Worthy Theories With The Information I Gave Above What Happened To This Ship!!
What a coincidence that you joined PPrune and used this topic as your first posts!!!!!!!!!:rolleyes: :rolleyes: Who do you think you're fooling? (Although judging by how many folks here who have tried to reason with you I'd admit you have got a few here fooled)
So tell us all:
WHO TOLD YOU THE NTSB HAD "CLOSED" THE CASE?????????????
I'll answer that one for you:
NO ONE. := :rolleyes:
You're a liar.
Go away.

[HELOFAN]

So how can I find out when the last S300 crash was and how many robinsons have gone down since...and Visa Versa, interesting stats ?

[13snoopy]

What a coincidence that you joined PPrune and used this topic as your first posts!!!!!!!!!:rolleyes: :rolleyes: Who do you think you're fooling? (Although judging by how many folks here who have tried to reason with you I'd admit you have got a few here fooled)
So tell us all:
WHO TOLD YOU THE NTSB HAD "CLOSED" THE CASE?????????????
I'll answer that one for you:
NO ONE. := :rolleyes:
You're a liar.
Go away.
Bump to top.

[FLYINHY]

snoopy: maybe your name speaks for yourself. you need to go away. i need information.

I HAVE A PERSONAL STAKE IN THIS .I WAS TOLD DIRECTLY. maybe you should read between the lines. who would know so much personal information that you can't get.

So tell us all:
WHO TOLD YOU THE NTSB HAD "CLOSED" THE CASE?????????????
I'll answer that one for you:
NO ONE. := :rolleyes:
You're a liar.
Go away.[/quote]

so snoopy who do you work for?
why do you have a problem with me getting information i need!
all the information i have posted is true and correcthttp://www.pprune.org/forums/images/icons/mpangel.gif

[topendtorque]

I HAVE A PERSONAL STAKE IN THIS .I WAS TOLD DIRECTLY.

all the information i have posted is true and correcthttp://www.pprune.org/forums/images/icons/mpangel.gif

Mate, I am indeed sorry if this is a personal tradegy for yourself, we all get those from time to time in the rotary game, just a matter of time it seems, even ordinary life yields more than what one might expect as tradegies for some.

However we can only exist on hyperbole for so long and that's all you have given us amongst the shouting.

On these forums at little risk of contradiction you will find the greatest collection and cross references of wise experience rotary wise in the whole world - sure there's plenty of banale and banter amongst the beautific - just like bloody life in the front office of our job.

If you would like some logic and or theories tossed around then for god's sake come up with some facts else the whole brain factory is gonna walk away from you.

at risk of contradiction you are starting to sound like a hillbilly countryman of mine - and that's embarrassing.

in short front up or shut up.
TET

[13snoopy]

Mate, I am indeed sorry if this is a personal tradegy for yourself, we all get those from time to time in the rotary game, just a matter of time it seems, even ordinary life yields more than what one might expect as tradegies for some.

However we can only exist on hyperbole for so long and that's all you have given us amongst the shouting.

On these forums at little risk of contradiction you will find the greatest collection and cross references of wise experience rotary wise in the whole world - sure there's plenty of banale and banter amongst the beautific - just like bloody life in the front office of our job.

If you would like some logic and or theories tossed around then for god's sake come up with some facts else the whole brain factory is gonna walk away from you.

at risk of contradiction you are starting to sound like a hillbilly countryman of mine - and that's embarrassing.

in short front up or shut up.
TET
Great post.
FLYINHY cannot tell us any more because he's ran out of lies.
No one that's associated with the NTSB has ever told FLYINHY (as he claims)that the case mentioned above was "closed". That's pure falsehood.
He's a liar and he knows it.

[007helicopter]

hmm now if a scale was applied to even it out ( number of ships produced over time ) would the number of ships per production over time be even or at a higher/lower rate?

Helofan you might find this link interesting, it quotes accidents per 100,000 hours flight time which to me is the only worthwhile comparrison, unfortuantely the period is only up to 1994 but I am sure someone will have up to date figures. Scroll down this page

http://www.hothelicopters.com/career_schools.htm

[InducedDrag]

007,

I think those stats are a little misleading.... By a school who wants to push the 300.

I recently attended RHC safety school and Tim Tucker spent a good amount of time analyazing accident stats up to 2002. I think with the introduction of the gov, and the SFAR restrictions, LOC accidents were cut 5 fold (I think..Hard to remember exactly)


Long story short, most stats can be skewed to show anything. Also, the estimation of flight hours,is just that...an estimation.....

I think both ships are safe when flown properly. I personally prefer the R22, which is why I bought one.....but to each his own.... Both fine pieces of equipment, both have advantages and disadvantages....

[HELOFAN]

Thank you 007.

I am sure I honestly didnt think I was ever really going to say that.

LOL

Thanks again & if anyone has any more links to some stat info like this please post it.

HF

[InducedDrag]

Here is an intesting link> I cut and pasted the txt below. I also highlighted some areas of interest....


Like I said, I think you can make stats say almost anything you want. I think both ships are good. However my personal opinon is the 22 is a better ship. I only have about 20 hrs in a 300 though.....


Statistics show R22 is as safe as a turbine

An analysis of Robinson R22 accidents performed using data from Britain’s Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) has proven something Robinson designer and developer Frank Robinson has been saying for years: that in a level-playing-field comparison adjusted for flight hours, his R22 two-seat piston helo is at least as safe as, if not safer than, its leading competition, whether piston or turbine-powered.

The study examined British aviation safety records compiled over 15 years, starting in 1985 and ending in 2000. The sheer growth rate of the rapidly expanding Robinson in-service fleet finds itself reflected in the total numbers of estimated hours flown: in 1995, the UK Robinson fleet logged an estimated 99,393 flight hours, compared with a total of 197,576 for 2000. Over those years, just 15 fatal accidents were recorded among R22, R44, Schweizer 300/Hughes 269 and Bell JetRanger classes.

Among those aircraft over those years, that comparison group shows that 46.5 percent of total hours flown in the UK by single-engine rotorcraft were flown by R22s. That make and model of helicopter was involved in roughly one-third of all reported accidents and one-fifth of all fatal accidents. (The accident rates worked out to one reportable accident for every 7,515 hr flight time, and one fatal accident for every 115,213 flight hours)

Robinson’s chief competition in the ab initio training mission, the Schweizer 300/Hughes 269, in the UK flew fewer than one-tenth as many hours as the R22 (just 4.2 percent of the total UK helicopter hours flown) but was involved in 10 percent of the reportable accidents and 6.7 percent of the fatal accidents during the timeframe studied. The 300/269 fleet was involved in one reportable accident every 2,380 hr and one fatal every 30,939 hr, making it almost four times more dangerous than the R22.

In the case of the Bell JetRanger, the CAA numbers showed the world’s most ubiquitous turbine single to be involved in far fewer accidents overall, but when an accident did take place, it was far more likely to be fatal. The theories behind this higher rate are several. JetRangers tend to be operated at higher speeds (because they can be) and in more demanding environments (offshore, geological research, and so on). The JetRanger comes in second in terms of total CAA hours (26.4 percent), averaging just one out of every 10 accidents but, sadly, one out of every three fatal accidents. The JetRanger fleet averaged just one reportable accident for every 14,047 hr of flight, a safety rate twice as good as the R22’s, but averaged a fatal accident once every 39,903 hr, about three times worse than the R22.

Other helicopter makes and models flew what could be argued as statistically insignificant portions of the accident pie. For instance, Eurocopter’s AS 350 AStar, which logged 8.4 percent of the total hours listed between 1985 and 2000, accounted for 3.1 percent of the reportable accidents and reported just one fatal mishap.

Less common helicopters, such as the Robinson R44; MD Helicopters’ MD 500, the Enstrom line of the 28, 280 and 480; the Bell 47 and Eurocopter Gazelle barely notched 1 percent of the accident index, while the rates of lesser-knowns and newcomers such as the Brantley International Brantley B-2B and Eurocopter EC 120 also studied were not statistically significant. –B.W.

http://www.ainonline.com/Publications/HAI/HAI_2002/HAI_02d1_statisticsr22pg20.html

[13snoopy]

Thank you 007.
I am sure I honestly didnt think I was ever really going to say that.
LOL
Thanks again & if anyone has any more links to some stat info like this please post it.
HF
When are you going to admit that you are a liar for saying that the NTSB had "closed" the investiagtion on the accident described at the top of this thread???????????????????
Tell the truth for a change.
Ignoring the lie you told isn't going to make it go away.

[HELOFAN]

Hey,
I am pretty sure that I have nothing to do with what ever the hell it is you are talking about.
:oh:
I hope you know cause I have no idea.

maybe you know, maybe you dont but either way leave me out of it.

Cheers

I imagine that it was a simple mistake of cut and paste or something and any minute you are going to say ....oh sorry bout that .
:E
HF

[evansb]

Anyone care to speculate on the cause of the R44 crash off the Oregon coast on Aug.13?

[Rotorbee]

Anyone care to speculate on the cause of the R44 crash off the Oregon coast on Aug.13?

Inadverted flight into IMC. How does that sound? Or the guy found a break in the overcast, decended and missjudged the height over water and touched the water. Has anybody seen the film where they touch the water with an R22 while filming?

[13snoopy]

What a coincidence that you joined PPrune and used this topic as your first posts!!!!!!!!!:rolleyes: :rolleyes: Who do you think you're fooling? (Although judging by how many folks here who have tried to reason with you I'd admit you have got a few here fooled)
So tell us all:
WHO TOLD YOU THE NTSB HAD "CLOSED" THE CASE?????????????
I'll answer that one for you:
NO ONE. := :rolleyes:
You're a liar.
Go away.
Here we go.

[13snoopy]

Exactly, It Should Be A Year Before The Case Is Solved I Was Shocked Myself To Hear That The Ntsb Had Closed The Case. I HAVE A PERSONAL STAKE IN THIS I WAS TOLD DIRECTLY.
FLYINHY,
Are you drunk when you post here????????
You asked why I said what I said about your assertions that the NTSB "closed the case". Well, here's your own QUOTE (above) where you say exactly that. So let's see, that makes you a liar, doesn't it?
No one from the NTSB told you the case had been closed. Liar.

[HELOFAN]

13snoopy,
are you drunk when YOU post here?

what is your last comment that was aimed at me about?

I appologise to all for not making it clear to whom my lst comment was aimed at, being 13snoopy.

still waiting snoopdog.

HF

[rotorspin]

Far be it for me to become some sort of referee, but this thread is turning into a pie throwing contest and I am sick of reading it, but it keeps popping up!

Lets remember that people died in the incident we are discussing and I suggest the thread stops until we get some hard facts.....:(

If this is the way that PPrune is going then I for one will be leaving this forum.....:=

[HELOFAN]

13snoopy,
Seriously I think you are just looking to fight/argue with folks.

WHY have you posted something stating I posted it when I have not posted that at all?

You say I quoted it but I did not.

Please right the wrong & back away from the mistake.

I do not appreciate you dragging me into any sort of arguement.

Furthermore I do not appreciate you stating I quoted something when I did not.

[13snoopy]

13snoopy,
Seriously I think you are just looking to fight/argue with folks.
WHY have you posted something stating I posted it when I have not posted that at all?
You say I quoted it but I did not.
Please right the wrong & back away from the mistake.
I do not appreciate you dragging me into any sort of arguement.
Furthermore I do not appreciate you stating I quoted something when I did not.
You didn't post this? The post that starts with "HELOFAN"????????????
I guess there are two HELOFAN posters here. I didn't think it was possible for two people to have the exact same poster ID. WOW!
You are saying the above quote that YOU made (Oh, wait. You didn't post that did you? That was the OTHER "HELOFAN" poster wasn't it?) wasn't from you?
I caught you in your lie and now you're having to wallow in it.
Liar.

[HELOFAN]

What the heck ???!!!

Where do any of my posts say this?

13snoopy Quote:
Originally Posted by HELOFAN
Thank you 007.
I am sure I honestly didnt think I was ever really going to say that.
LOL
Thanks again & if anyone has any more links to some stat info like this please post it.
HF

When are you going to admit that you are a liar for saying that the NTSB had "closed" the investiagtion on the accident described at the top of this thread???????????????????Tell the truth for a change.
Ignoring the lie you told isn't going to make it go away.

When did I post that at all/originally ?
Where ??? Show me !!!!!

Your cut and paste of my quote isnt even relative !!

What are you on mate??

:zzz:

[Big Bucks Bernie]

Hey Snoopy, you might want to go through all the posts on this thread again, because I can't find a single one either in which HELOFAN stated that the NTSB investigation was closed. Now mind you, FLYINHY did in post # 20.

[HELOFAN]

13snoopy,
read the whole thread again.

FLYNHY stated that the NTSB had closed teh case & you even responded to him asking the question " who told you the NTSB had closed the case"

I did not mention that in any if my posts at all that I know of or that I can see.

I am not a liar & you have proven yourself to be a squeezer.
:}
Well done mate.

HF

[Dream Land]

Sigh (sound of eating popcorn)...Snoopy, your turn. :}

[Hughes500]

What round is it ? Getting near the Bell for round 15 I hope !

[HELOFAN]

:oh:
I think that's the bell.

LOL

13snoopy gets to buy 1 x jug of beer & 2 glasses for he & I for just getting it wrong

And

enough beer for everyone else for steering this thread into the depths of OMG'dom & making everyone endure it.

Whaddya say Snoop?

:)

[Heliport]

.




http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v140/Rotorheads/LibertyBell.gif

[Whirlygig]

It's very easy to fabricate "quotes" - a basic knowledge of VBulletin will do it. For example,
Never send to know for whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee

Now you all know that Heliport didn't write that (John Donne did!) but it's easy to slant ones argument by the incorrect use of quotes. :=

Not accusing anyone of course but, given I was victim to some backstage sniping involving this trick, just thought I'd make you all aware!

Cheers

Whirls

[HELOFAN]

Cheers Whirls.

I think this is all said and done.

No harm no foul.
I will even buy the first round, to smooth out the edges.

:ok:

HF

Mmm beer !

[FLYINHY]

FOR EVERYONE WHO HAS HAD TO ENDEAR THIS AWFUL FORUM TURN OUT.

FOR EVERYONES STATE OF MIND I NEVER THOUGHT THIS WOULD HAVE GONE THIS WAY. I WILL HAVE TO TRY ANOTHER FORUM, BECAUSE OF SOME PEOPLE THAT CAN NOT OPEN THEIR EYES ENOUGH TO HELP PEOPLE IN NEED. ALL I WANTED WAS INFORMATION, ON THIS HELICOPTER AND THEORIES OF WHY AND HOW IT CRASHED, I NEVER ONCE INTENDED FOR IT TO BECOME A YELLING MATCH. I CAN SEE NOW THAT THIS IS THE WRONG PLACE FOR ME. AS SNOOPY HAS POINTED OUT YES I DID JOIN AFTER THE CRASH. AND YES I WAS THE ONE THAT SAID THE NTSB CLOSED THE CASE. IF YOU LOOK BACK TO THE BEGINNING OF THE THREAD. I NEVER ONCE ACUSED ANYONE FOR ANYTHING, ALL I WANTED WAS HELP TO SOLVE THIS CASE. BUT YOU PEOPLE ARE ALL FIXSATATED ON THE BAD AND CAN'T LOOK BEYOND WHAT WAS LOST, A GREAT HUSBAND,DAD, GRANDFATHER, HIS BROTHER-IN LAW,. ALL LOST .............. GONE......... NEVER COMING BACK. THEY WERE THE GREATEST PEOPLE.

I HAVE BEEN CALLED A LIAR, AND PUT DOWN BY SNOOPY, HE ABVIOUSLY HAS NEVER HAD ANY BODY DIE IN A HELICOPTER CRASH. SNOOPY WHAT WOULD YOU DO? HOW WOULD YOU HANDLE IT? WHERE WOULD YOU START? WHO WOULD YOU TRUST? IF THE NTSB CAME TO YOU AND TOLD YOU THE CASE WAS CLOSED AFTER 3 MTHS OF INVESTIGATION , WHAT WOULD YOU DO? WHO WOULD YOU GO TO? ARE YOU A HELICOPTER PILOT, DO YOU KNOW WHAT TO LOOK FOR? TELL ME, DON'T BE A SMART ASS, TELL ME?

I TELL YOU WHAT WE DID , DROVE ALL THE WAY DOWN TO CALIFORNIA TO SEE THE HELICOPTER IN BAGS AND REPIECE EVERYTHING TOGETHER, THEIR WERE NO TAGS, NUMBERS NOTHING, HOW SHOTTING IS THAT, THEN WE HAD THE FAA TAKING PARTS OF THE PIECES WE WANTED TO SEE. WE WERE TOLD THE FAA AND THE NTSB WERE IN AN ARGUEMENT A WEEK BEFORE. THE FAA WILL NOT RETURN OUR CALLS , FAXES, EMAILS. SO WHERE DO YOU GO FROM HERE.

FOR ALL THE DOUBTFUL, UNTRUSTING PEOPLE OUT THERE. I AM TRUE, I AM THE FAMILY OF THE VICTIMS OF THE HELICOPTER CRASH NEAR DESERT CENTRE MAY 1,2006. ALL I WANT IS ANSWERS!

[scooter boy]

I hope you find your answers soon,

SB

[13snoopy]

13snoopy,
read the whole thread again.
FLYNHY stated that the NTSB had closed teh case & you even responded to him asking the question " who told you the NTSB had closed the case"
I did not mention that in any if my posts at all that I know of or that I can see.
I am not a liar & you have proven yourself to be a squeezer.
:}
Well done mate.
HF
OK. I am a fool. I got my poster names mixed up.
I AM SORRY. Truly.

[007helicopter]

ALL I WANTED WAS INFORMATION, ON THIS HELICOPTER AND THEORIES OF WHY AND HOW IT CRASHED,

FLYINHI - I hope you get some sensible feedback and information now, I can not actually imagine how you feel or cope with your loss. I hope the official reports eventually come up with some answers that explain what happened but it sounds like you have lost confidence with this happening.

I guess you are looking for the hard facts.

Good Luck

Duncan

[rotorspin]

Been saying this throughout the thread, its a tragic loss of life and my thoughts are with you and the family.....:(

[CYHeli]

Snoopy - Well said.

FLYINHY - I hope God eventually blesses you and your family, and that you feel (emotionally) richer for it. Unfortunately, in life and aviation, we don't always get the answers that we are looking for. :(

[HELOFAN]

Well done guys.

Good on you Snoop.

:ok:

My shout for the beers.....now how many glasses/jugs am I getting up for now?

:p

Respect to you all.

HF

[topendtorque]

Make mine a double, this thread hasn't even started yet.

[FLYINHY]

Hello All,

i have not posted hear in years, For all of you that have an interest in Robinson In-Flight breakups, I have news.

May 1, 2006 R44 Helicopter ferrying from Torrance to Ontario Canada broke up inflight.
Untitled Page (http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20060510X00540&ntsbno=LAX06FA156&akey=1) for a reminder

We now have some answers that i feel compeled to let others know and decide on there own.
News Brief:
Families of 2 men killed in crash settle with Robinson Helicopter - The Daily Breeze (http://www.dailybreeze.com/crimeandcourts/ci_19827664)
Family hopes good comes from tragedy - Chatham Daily News - Ontario, CA (http://www.chathamdailynews.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3454399)

Robinson settles case one day into trial: No pilot error or Passenger Input caused this crash.

Defective Rubber Mounts
This might put into perspective on this "chugging" and ramifications of experiencing violent shaking.
Thank-fully this pilot was not too high in the air as was able to come safety down.
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...FR%2010-07.pdf (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Robinson%20R44%20Raven%20II,%20G-CEFR%2010-07.pdf)
Was not the case of the New R44 Helicopter ferrying to Canada.
These were the same part # rubbers that were on this fatal crash helicopter.
Softer rubbers, better ride. Harder (seasoned ) Rubbers- rougher ride



The Helicopter was violently shaken apart in air. Tailboom tearing and extruding straight rearwards on the stbd side followed by a some bending or crimping before tearing on the edges of the port side" that is what it was.
the swashplate broke, then pitch link let go, found 800 ft away from crash site. blades out of normal rotation, struck the cab several times prior final blow to cockpit.
pilot shut down everything, and was 200ft from ground.

In a despostion from Robinson's Chief Engineer , he admitted that a vibration in the main rotor mast of the R44 could cause the gear box to shake violently,. Robinson knew about this problem of mast rocking or " chugging" as it is sometimes called , since 1993 and continued selling the helicopter while making only minor adjustments to the rubber mounts and not informing pilots of the procedures to follow if such a problem occurred. Also in 2006 the time this helicopter was manufactured in the Robinson Factory, a batch of soft main Rotor gear box motormounts were used in R44's, making this self-exciting "chugging" problem more severe when and if it occurred.
This only confirms that it was neither Frank Verellen (pilot) or Leo Straatman (passenger) caused the accident to happen, only affirming what we already knew.
We are hoping with this outcome that it spurs enough inquiries to Robinson Company , NTSB and FAA to make changes in order to prevent another tragic accident from happening to a well-loved pilot.

Nothing can bring back our loved ones but if this trial and investigation helps save even one life our struggles and hard work will have been worth it.
Many more R44's and now R66's are showing same ugly traits. Let's keep informed!!!!

[topendtorque]

Hmm, I was thinking about this thread last night and wondered where it had gone, and that drink i was sitting on, so decided the current bottle of Jameson’s was worth another couple of double shots as well.

The first thing my morning head has said is that we need a very simple AD or at least an SB, - check and remove mounts if they are part no. #### and replace with XXXXX at next hundred.

A Robinson safety notice detailing the dangers of fwd CofG, because of this "chugging" and a procedure to abate it if encountered.

In the other thread on the subject there was suggestion that this phenomena may account for many other accidents. Always dangerous jumping to those conclusions, but I can think of one with four POB fatal in the Kimberly that might? fit the bill.

Oh for the information back then.

[Arthur Mo]

@ FLYINHY

As I understand it, you were close to the fatalities in an accident, and I am soory for your loss, however you cannot simply make speculative statements as fact and not have them questioned

Robinson settles case one day into trial: No pilot error or Passenger Input caused this crash.

The case was settled, and as the accident report was inconclusive, that means we will never know what happened. There is no evidence either for or against pilot error or passenger input. However in the same way that Robinson can be accused of carelessness with respect to the rubber mounts and chugging, the pilot was acting against safety notices about non-pilot passengers and the dual controls.

Defective Rubber Mounts
This might put into perspective on this "chugging" and ramifications of experiencing violent shaking.
Thank-fully this pilot was not too high in the air as was able to come safety down.
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...FR%2010-07.pdf
Was not the case of the New R44 Helicopter ferrying to Canada.
These were the same part # rubbers that were on this fatal crash helicopter.
Softer rubbers, better ride. Harder (seasoned ) Rubbers- rougher ride

Perhaps I am reading too much into your statement, but there is once again no evidence either for or against chugging occurring on the Canada flight.

We are hoping with this outcome that it spurs enough inquiries to Robinson Company , NTSB and FAA to make changes in order to prevent another tragic accident from happening to a well-loved pilot.

Once again, there is no evidence that it caused the loss of *any* pilots.

I fully support investigations into the chugging issue, as - from what I can see - do Robinson who also don't want their helicopters dropping out of the sky.

But whatever outcome those investigations have, it won't change the fact that the accident investigation causes are unknown. If pinning the blame in your own mind on a single one of the possible causes gives you some sense of closure, then that is a good thing for you.

The research is always helpful for future safety, but doesn't constitute proof of anything in the past.

[For the record, I have no affiliation with Robinson Helicopter Co., other than as a past owner and pilot]

Arfur

[hillberg]

Chuging as Robinson puts it is PYLON WHIRL it is common with Bell style two bladed rotor systems . one blade flaps up and the other flaps down as a single unit.
As the blades flap to releave disemitry of lift. they also see different air loads. different loads in mass & drag so some times the pylon will turn not in line of the turning shaft but turn in a circle around the plyon with the shaft whipping from aerodynamic loads that are out of ballance in the plane of rotation, the effects are minimized by design with the rotor blade inplane stiffness & gearbox dampers. If the rubber in the R-44 is too soft & the C/G is a little out of limits the pylon could shake the tail off .

Look up pylon whirl , Hooks effect , Aeroelastic .

[Shawn Coyle]

hillberg:
As far as I know (and I'm more than willing to be corrected), pylon whirl has only happened during touchdown autorotations on the 206 series. Standing by for other evidence.

[hillberg]

The 206 L has the nodal beams that dephase & buckle the tail boom as the rotor Rpm decays on the landing phase of autorotation, The Bell 205 & UH 1 will do a good whirl when the simplex water tank fills with water and the pilots start to look like a load of laundry in an outa ballanced washing machine ( It starts small & grows with the change in C/G and load.)

Bad Txsn dampers too will add to the excitment, Or bad sprag mounts in the Hiller & Bell 47, or a bad isolation mount in the 206 Bs

Did a lot of vibration tests, funny what spinning things do in a helicopter.

[Iceman29]

NTSB final report: Robinson R44 Raven II C-FICL

AnalysisThe Canadian certificated commercial helicopter pilot was conducting a cross-country delivery flight with a non-rated passenger occupying the copilot seat. The passenger and pilot together had previously made delivery flights from the Robinson factory to Canada. Two witnesses saw the helicopter just before it impacted the ground and reported that the tail boom had separated from the fuselage. No witnesses were identified who saw the initial breakup sequence. Both main rotor blades were bent downward at significant angles, with one blade having penetrated the cabin on the right side with a downward slicing front to rear arc. The primary wreckage debris field was approximately 500 feet long on an easterly heading. The helicopter sustained damage consistent with a high-energy, fuselage level, vertical ground impact. Detailed post accident investigation of the engine, the airframe, and the control systems disclosed no evidence of any preimpact anomalies. The removable cyclic was installed on the left side copilot's position, contrary to manufacturer's recommendations when a non-rated passenger is seated in the left seat. The removable pedals and collective for the left side were not installed. The cyclic controls for both the pilot's and copilot's positions were broken from their respective mounting points. The copilot's cyclic grip exhibited inward crushing. The Safety Board adopted a Special Investigation Report on April 2, 1996, following the investigation into R22 and R44 accidents involving loss of main rotor control and divergence of the main rotor disk, which included a finding that the cause of the loss of main rotor control in many of the accidents "most likely stems from a large, abrupt pilot control input to a helicopter that is highly responsive to cyclic control inputs."
Probable Cause and FindingsThe National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be:
a loss of control and the divergence of the main rotor blade system from its normal rotational path for undetermined reasons.

[Paul Cantrell]

NTSB final report: Robinson R44 Raven II C-FICL

Well that's disappointing. I attended the factory class that ended right before this accident... I think they must have been in the class although I didn't remember them specifically. It came as a shock when I got home and heard about the accident.. The pilot was not an inexperienced guy. I was really hoping we would get a concrete cause to the accident... Still wonder if they did something ( low gee? Auto? ) that went bad, or whether there was simply a mechanical issue with the aircraft that took a few hours to manifest itself?

[Gordy]

If you have not read the original report, it is very sobering. I am infinitely familiar with one of the accidents sited and fairly familiar with another 2 of them:

NTSB Special Investigation Report 96-03 into Robinson Helicopters (http://libraryonline.erau.edu/online-full-text/ntsb/special-investigation-reports/SIR96-03.pdf)

[Robbiee]

Well, it did say that, although the pedals and collective were not installed on the passenger side, the cyclic was.

So,...

[aa777888]

This is ancient history. The single, key point of the entire report is on Page 29, bullet eight (8):

"There have been no in-flight main rotor loss of control accidents in the United States involving the R22 or R44 helicopter since early 1995, when the Federal Aviation Administration issued airman information alerts, airworthiness directives, a flight standardization board report, and Special Federal Aviation Regulation 73, all of which pertain to the operation of the R22 and R44 helicopters."

Fly, instruct and maintain it right and it will treat you right. Fail to do so at your own peril. There is no better example of this than to compare US accident rates vs. those outside the US where SFAR 73 or it's equivalent has not been respected.

This is not to say there haven't been improvements to the breed. Bladder tanks, new rotor blade designs, etc., all have been helpful in reducing accident rates or the results thereof. But the single most important improvement is SFAR 73, which is really applicable to any two-bladed, teetering, low inertial rotor head design. Of course there really aren't any flying except the Robinson product line, with the possible exception of the Mosquito and Rotorway homebuilts.

I do have to say, however, that while it was easy to understand my instructor's admonitions with respect to low-G maneuvers and turbulence, their focus on smooth and small control inputs was not quite as obvious. This latter point is not well covered by either SFAR 73 nor the usual cohort of helicopter aerodynamics references, although it does make sense from a general pilot skills perspective. That said, watching mustering operations in the R22 tends to provide some conflicting evidence in this respect (not that I've done this personally). However I have had demonstrated, by my instructor, how repeated, aggressive control inputs can drag down rotor RPM.

Fly the machine you have, not the machine you wish you had.

[kansarasc]

Great thread.
I read this with lots of interest because I have ordered a new R44 and delivery date is around end of April - early may almost exactly 14 years since this accident . I am flying to factory with my CFI to fly helicopter back home. I am hoping robinson makes better quality helicopters since then