Endorsement Approval.

[mach.865]

I believe one has to obtain 10 hours on a twin to get endorsement approval once Twin Approval is gained. So if one has flown the 50 hours required for the qualifying of Twin Training Approval,on say a Duchess, Seminole and a C310 ensuring she has been smart enough to do at least 10 hours on each type. Would she then have endorsement approval for all 3 aircraft??

Helpfull posts only please.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Very probably...but she/he/it shouldn't be.

No one is qualified to be teaching in piston twins with only 50 TT and 10 on type....500 multi total and 100 on type is more like it. The only exception would be for those with 1000+ ME TT then I could see teaching a twin they only had 10 hrs in.

[Bendo]

CAO 40.1.7 gives you....


The holder of an instructor rating may give instruction in
multi-engined aeroplanes only if he or she has:
(a) at least 50 hours as pilot in command on multi-engined aeroplanes, of
which:
(i) not more than 25 hours was acting in command under supervision;
and
(ii) at least 10 hours was as pilot in command on each type of aeroplane
in which he or she wishes to instruct or any other type that CASA
determines to be similar;
(b) passed an examination conducted by CASA, an approved testing officer or
an approved person; and
(c) holds an aircraft endorsement for the type of aeroplane.


So if you hold META, a type endorsement and have 10 hours on type, you are good to go..

...subject, of course, to any company requirements.

Good Luck! :ok:

[2FarCanard]

OFF TOPIC

Chimbu,

Did you see The Australian last Friday. If i was starting out again and needed those kind of hours i would rather be an F/O on the business jet.

I see what you are saying but its all supply and demand. If i needed 500 multi to get multi approval or fly a biz jet i know what i would choose.

[Mr.Buzzy]

Did you see The Australian last Friday. If i was starting out again and needed those kind of hours i would rather be an F/O on the business jet.

I see what you are saying but its all supply and demand. If i needed 500 multi to get multi approval or fly a biz jet i know what i would choose.

This is not about YOU and YOUR career. This is about the experience requirements of people teaching new pilots!
Still find it fascinating that you can be taught to fly commercially by an instructor that has possibly done a few "aeroclub, pretend, cost share" charters at best.

well said Chimbu.

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[2FarCanard]

Mr Buzzy,

You are right its not about my career. Its about a pilot with 500 hours multi who has the choice to get in an airline, biz jet or bank running/ charter job OR get multi training approval.

A never disagreed with the experience requirement needing to be higher but the reality is that you will markedly reduce the amount of twin instructors in GA which will either make it more like booking a flight test to get a twin endorsement or the price will skyrocket.

Maybe the answer is to have the higher requirements for initial twin training approval but the same for endorsements.

Supply and demand.

Such hostility man!!:ouch:

[M.25]

You are right its not about my career. Its about a pilot with 500 hours multi who has the choice to get in an airline, biz jet or bank running/ charter job OR get multi training approval.


It would make more sense to me to use a bank run/ charter job to build the experience required to teach others how to fly twins, rather than the other way around.
In a perfect world instructors would only be the best of the best. Dedicated career professionals, who choose to be where they are.

[2FarCanard]

Agreed! That would be the perfect world.

[Mr.Buzzy]

2far,
sorry if I came over a little harsh. Agreed, the last thing the industry also needs is more pay hikes to further deter trainees.
Just thinking about the recent $130 for medical processing is enough to set the forehead veins into severe pulsate mode!:ok:

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[MBA747]

Mr. Buzzy

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Your signature says it all, a brain of a fly. I guess 500 hours on multi and a second year high school education should be the requirements.

Chimbu,

So how many simulated assy failures would a 500 hour charter pilot have as opposed to an instructor with twin approval? how many bad habits would an experienced charter pilot have picked up? Within 50 hours of one obtaining twin approval the instructor would be more qualified theoretically and be more capable of handling emergencies than a 500 or 1000 hour cowboy.Remember he is doing it every day, not some pathetic attempt every 6 months. Thats why airlines don't want a lot of GA experience, to many bad habits to undo.

Its like saying you only fly a CatC aeroplane on domestic and unconsequental international routes and that before flying your light jet or a CatD aircraft on more demanding routes you should go into the right sight to learn how its done.

[Chimbu chuckles]

A 500 or 1000 hr cowboy shouldn't be teaching anyone anything.

There is more to teaching someone to fly any aircraft than just handling engine failures....like how to fly it properly.

The GA light twin knowledge base in Oz is awash with stuff that is just plain wrong...you will NEVER learn to fly any aircraft properly if you never leave the circuit area or training area.

A pilot with his head screwed on properly and, preferably, with some good mentoring from senior pilots, will learn more in 500 hrs out in the real world than someone working in theory will ever learn...because he is dealing with variables all day every day rather than working within the extremely confined world of theory and repeating the same excercises, at artificially low weights, over and over.

Experienced instructors (who have never left instructing) are NOT experienced pilots...they are experienced teachers....innexperienced instructors are not even that.

In the flight instructing realm individuals get so caught up with the theory it takes on a life of it's own...hence you see people to scared and/or lacking in knowledge to fly slower than blue line when landing....or another common mistake I have seen around flying schools that 'teach' twin flying...innappropriately copying airline techniques in aircraft not certified as such.

Its flying by rote. To often long time instructors lose the ability to think outside the box...they spend so many years teaching one 'right' way of doing things that they forget that the method they are teaching is the basic way an innexperienced pilot will be able to handle...NOT necesarily the best way to do all things aeronautical.

I have had two real engine failures in piston twins, another two in piston singles and one in a jet...not one bore any relationship to a training engine failure...not even a little passing resemblance....the basics are important...but they are the basics not the be all and end all.

Thats what experience is...what you get when you didn't get what you wanted.

It is bad enough that many pilots first job is 'teaching' but that is unavoidable to some extent...that young, innexperienced instructors view multi training approvals as a ticket to credible multi experience is a travesty....it should never be allowed.

I will say it again...NO-ONE with less than 500 hrs of REAL world multi experience should be allowed in the rhs of a piston twin teaching.

As far as airlines prefering Instructing over a broad experience base is concerned?

You'll learn the reality sooner or later.

[Mr.Buzzy]

Its like saying you only fly a CatC aeroplane on domestic and unconsequental international routes and that before flying your light jet or a CatD aircraft on more demanding routes you should go into the right sight to learn how its done.

HUH? Maybe I am thick, what does the above load of rubbish mean?

MBA747,
I suppose you think it would be OK for you and your daughter to pay for those 500 hours?...Done a few of those "special charters" have you? The ones that you get a bill for at the end.

Right on again Chimbu!

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[maui]

Chimbu

I tend to agree with you but with one caveat. Said 500-1000 hour candidate should also either be an experienced instructor, or an "approved person" with considerable background and a significant practical demonstration/test of his teaching skills.

Seem to remember back in the dim darks all this was taken pretty seriously with at the very least a B grade and a severe test before taking on ME or CIR. :ugh:

Cheers

Maui

[TurboOtter]

I think that even though Chuckles and Buzzy have strange names, their thoughts are bang on the money.
CASA SHOULD READ THIS FORUM IF NOTHING ELSE!!!!!

Green pilots teaching new pilots = even greener pilots that then teach new pilots = even greener pilots etc.... you can see the picture.

yes a low time pilot can give you the fundamentals, we've all done our training and we know the drill, but as Chuckles sort of said, when sh#t hits the fan it hardly ever follows a text book, I know from my experiences of fans shutting down and other events, the text book didn't even come close, so the ability to memorize everything in books will not save you, your ability to take that knowledge to fill in the gaps and make your own decisions is the ONLY way to survive.

I have heard a rumour that even CASA are realising that green pilots shouldn't be instructing, for it truely is a case of the blind leading the blind, for they have seen a decline in the "piloting" ability that the more experienced instructors used to be able to pass on.


MBA747 yes you need to have minimums, and I don't think their minimums are want needs to be changed, the industry needs to be changed to encourage more experienced pilots to become instructors, how do you do that, money.

Another way of getting the experience back into the instructing business is tomake it easier for pilots with real experience to teach.THere are countries in the big world of ours that believe if a pilot has a reasonable amount of experience on a type ofm achine, then they should be able to give endorsements for the machine. What would be wrong with that?

As for the mention of working for free etc.. I firmly believe that working for free should be against the law and these pilots should be black listed, you don't see Doctors or Lawyers working for free do you and you Doctor was working for free you would be out of there pronto! We are professionals with the general public lives in our hands, and we should be paid accordingly!

Just one last bit of food for thought.
If it could be considered "ok" for green pilots to teach new pilots, why do the defence forces not follow this example and instead use their "best" to become instructors. Maybe some goverment fly boys could tell us more. But isn't it easier to get posted to a job flying rubber dog sh#t out of Hong Kong on a 707 than to get a posting doing advanced jet training?

[locknut]

Geez, a can of worms has really been opened here...:} I couldn't agree more with chimbu. However...

There are already far too many pilots in oz. This stems from the fact that we're one of the cheapest countries to get a pilots license. Any guesses why China Southern and Singapore Flying College are based out of Jandakot? Flying schools are NOT charging enough for flying lessons; this is clearly obvious by the vast number of unemployed pilots. Once a pilot has a CPL, he must work 6-7 days earning next to nothing if he wants to survive. If the schools billed students correctly, pilots would be paid correctly and would gain the respect and conditions they deserve.

In time there would be fewer pilots (not sure if this would be a good thing) resulting in a more sustainable industry. Furthermore instructing would then appeal more to experienced pilots :ok:

[M.25]

Sorry to go off topic, but I believe the original question has already been answered.

Do we give instructor tickets to newly qualified motor-vehicle license holders, or do we give them 'P' plates to display for a few years, and steer clear while they get the hang of it? If my memory serves me correctly, you must have held a drivers license for over four years to be able to supervise a learner driver.... bad habits or not!

MBA747
Quote: "So how many simulated assy failures would a 500 hour charter pilot have as opposed to an instructor with twin approval?"

It's not all about engine failures. (A simulated failure at a safe height, a safe speed, an unrealistically low weight, and in a totally controlled environment is not hard to pull off anyway. Just procedure really.) A gear not locked indication, an overheating engine or an electrical failure (just to name a few) are 100 times the problem when you are 300nm from civilisation on a dark stormy night, with 10 petrified POB and min fuel. You have some real decisions to make. (Thats of course in addition to the fact that you must take all of these possibilities, plus the commercial requirements into account when planning the flight in the first place).

Instructing should be a career path, not a stepping stone. The 200hr instructor is probably very good at both flying and pattering through a stall and a circuit, but he just doesn't have the experience to draw from. Probably the very first time that he encounters wind shear close to the ground, challenging weather, strong gusty crosswinds etc he will supposedly be teaching someone else what to do.

I know of (experienced) guys who would love to instruct one day, but there is no way that they can afford to join the line of 19 year old instructors willing to sell their soul to get a flying job in their home town. Schools just have to pay more, wait for the right people, and charge what the training is really worth. Quality doesn't come cheap.