Flight Training at Essendon

[wannaflyrightnow]

I want to begin my flight training as soon as possible.

Ive decided to choose a flying school at Essendon Airport as it is in close proximity to Tullamarine.

Ive narrowed it down to two possible schools:

-Pearson Aviation?
-National Aerospace?

Which school should I choose?

Any previous students...if you could give me an idea on what the schools are like that would be great.

Cheers :)

Mark

Woomera Edit: I will give you the benefit of the doubt this time, Mark as you appear to be a newbie. We don't permit free advertising on PPRuNe.

Anyone who has trained or worked at either of those establishments would not have needed the links to give you their opinions. Therefore, they have been removed.

Woomera (Eastern States)

[Ratter]

Go with National Aerospace!

Seem to be a good operator, has affiliation with Direct Air which has also got an office in Darwin

I would imagine it would be a good place to start the search for the illusive first job after you have completed training, given they are associated with both Instructing and Charter.

Best of luck with it, remember you are the customer!

Safe flying

Ratter!

[MaryG]

Where is Woomera on this one? A blatant ad set up by a new ppruner - please... where is the consistency here? this thread should be *^$$ canned ASAP!
:yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

[Ratter]

Hi Mary,

Take the post from wannafly how you like! However, there was a question in the post that i beleive is valid. If someone has done some investigation and has narrowed a choice down to two contenders then i think this person is serious about their training, who after all wants to find themselves spending an obscene amount of money with a company of disrepute, how many times have you seen on A Current Affair a grown man crying because he lost his life savings whilst looking to invest in real estate only to be shafted by a shonk!

That being said, i have never had nor ever will have association with either of the two companies named in the post but wannafly is looking for opinions from students that have been through these schools. I did my training at Moorabbin but have known some of the instructors that have worked for the said schools and was doing simply as the post requested....putting forward an opinion! I will concede that the inclusion of links to company websites was not necessary, however, being a new ppruner wannafly may not have the insight into what is or is not poor etiquette on PPRUNE.

I for one prefer to give each person the benefit of the doubt first, cynicysm is not healthy for the soul.

Wannafly, just to go one step further... i would say Moorabbin is a better place for training but it after all is your choice!

Safe flying

Ratter

[UnderneathTheRadar]

Why is closeness to Tullamarine a reason to pick Essendon? It's a bl**dy good reason not to go there - think:

- airspace restrictions/clearances not available (wasted $$$)
- long transits to training area (wasted $$$)
- long transits to MPC/BSS for circuits (wasted $$$)
- large landing fees (wasted $$$)
- long taxis (wasted $$$)

Go to MB (still got large landing fees but far more flexibility) or one of the many satelite fields egs Lilydale, Colsdstream, Bacchus, Melton, Tooradin, Tyabb etc etc.

UTR.

[UnderneathTheRadar]

Where is Woomera on this one? A blatant ad set up by a new ppruner - please... where is the consistency here? this thread should be *^$$ canned ASAP!
:yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

Those in glass houses MaryG - 4 posts, common themes, how about celebrating your pprune beginnings with some positive thoughts.....

[Mr. Boeing]

Is Moloney Aviation, Essendon Flying School and Galaxy still around?

[MaryG]

Fair enough, this may well be an innocent and quite ligitimate post for genuine info, however the point i raise is that the anonymity we enjoy on this forum can allow profiteering if rulings are not consistent. For example, what is stopping you setting up a username, making a post like this and then using a more established username to give the credibility and promote the business.
I am not casting dispertions about specific users, just topics. I do however understand that we all want to know specific info on certain companies, so i'll swallow my pride on this one.
PS.I make no comment on either company mentioned - I have no exerience with these operators

[OZAZTEC]

WannaFlyRightNow,

A good narrowing down, Essendon is a great airport to learn from!

- airspace restrictions/clearances not available (wasted $$$)

It is extremely rare and ATC at Essendon are the best. If there is a restiction it will be weather related and you should be in the classroom or stayed at home.

- long transits to training area (wasted $$$)

10/15 mins but your instructor will ensure you will get the best training whilst in transit. It will start way before you crank the engine.
- long transits to MPC/BSS for circuits (wasted $$$)

As above

- large landing fees (wasted $$$)

Can't argue, amongst the highest - but learning to fly in a controlled enviroment I suggest is the best way! Therefore Best learning enviroment - Not wasted! and your cost will be on TOTAL hours to get your GFPT/PPL.

- long taxis (wasted $$$)

Not correct - Again ACT at EN are very aware of their traffic and delays are unusual - My experience at MB is that delays can be much longer due to traffic.


Anyway, The choice is yours - Enjoy your Flying wherever you decide,
Hopefully I'll meet you, :ok:
Paul Wright :eek:

[brown_eyes]

Well everytime I phoned National Aerospace a lady answered the phone and told me Connie was flying. So does that mean they only have one instructor? I was enquiring for a friend who has to renew his Instrument Rating in the next 2 months.

[MBA747]

So how much are they charging to get experience through Direct Air? A colleague of mine told me they were fairly expensive and that any line experience one obtained through their links with Direct Air was outweighed by the costs.

[wannaflyrightnow]

Thanks to all those who replied with information regarding the schools.

I apologise for displaying the URLs for the schools. I did it in case people who are looking into flight training in the area hadn't heard about the schools and would like more information on them.

However it is a form of advertising and I should have read the disclaimer a little more carefully when I signed up.

I have read many threads on PPRUNE before signing up and I find that there are some people on this site who need to get off their arses, get rid of the 'pissed off old man' attitude and be slightly less condescending towards people like me who have a genuine interest in flying.

I have read so many posts where people are down right rude to "newbies" just because of the fact they are not as well informed as some of our more mature members.

If you really need to do this, get out of your chair and abuse someone to their face! It might be a little more difficult when you don't have the anonymity of an online forum.

Sorry to ramble on but I had to voice my feelings on this matter.

Cheers for your time. :)

[OZBUSDRIVER]

wannaflyrightnow-try PMing Centaurus. He helped me get set up with a good outfit at EN. Sadly, they are gone but he may be able to point you in the direction of a good crew to learn with.

[LUVJET]

MBA747

sounds to me like your collegue, perhaps did not make the grade with direct. just call and speak to anyone of the crew and ask them:

1/ how they enjoy working for DAC

2/ how many hours are been flown by any one individual on their respective (current types).

you will find both answers staggering and that direct are an employer of choice (piston).

its like anything.......once you have completed your training and you are good at what you do ....it would be stupid for the training org or their affiliates not to keep you and put you through their ranks.

I no longer worry about the piston stuff but a lot of my mates do and i have some solid advice....

choose a flying org that has a path of progression. yes, it may cost a little more but once you graduate they will need you as much as you need them...what better scenario......

they train you , they employ you, pay you well and before you know it you have achieved your ultimate job. and guess what ?? you did it with one org.

essendon has one school , that can provide this opportunity from student pilot to employed commercial pilot ( i dare any of one of you negative humans to prove this wrong and name a better option at essendon).

any way, as one whom has been their, done that ( yes with this org from start ) i can give you what i have experienced for you r betterment.

take it or leave it. and by the way......you get what you pay for.

[Critical Reynolds No]

Is Moloney Aviation, Essendon Flying School and Galaxy still around?

Molav got shunted from ES due to Mr Fox increasing the rents. They relocated to Penfield.

[Mustangbaz]

wannaflyrightnow,

If you are doing the whole gammet to cpl then maybe setting yourself up at a school in essendon is not such a bad idea. I did my ppl training with "Wings " years ago, it made for an excellent training enviroment useful for later on. Although Wings dont's exist anymore so i can't recommend them? Myself, i did my GFPT at Bacchus Marsh, you get great circuit experience with go-arounds (Gliders) the field has good cross runways and the training area is huge, pretty well all the way to ballarat, hope this helps

:)

[barney01]

My vote would be for an airfield outside of CTA (MMB or MEN).

Learn to fly first. You will be able to quickly learn CTA procedures later in your training.

The $$$ you spend should be on learn the basics, not paying for an operators high rents and landing fees (which is not the fault of the schools).

At least go and visit some other schools. (Can't see how being close to Tulla' helps!).

- Not being negative but if you ask a question you have to expect an answer!

[AusFlygal]

If you're about to commence flying training, it's all well and good to be thinking about the practical side (i.e. the actual flying) but I've yet to hear anyone even mention the theory side of things, which let's face it, if you don't get through, you won't get anywhere.

I did do some training through National Aerospace at Essendon and I have since switched to a school at Moorabbin that is a little more supportive in that way.

I lost a lot of money paying for Computer Based Training (CBT) which was a complete waste of time. It was sold to me (and several others I have spoken to who have since left) as a new approach to learning and that it was more in depth than classroom theory, and that you can work at your own pace..etc etc.

The room that the computers are set up in is dark and depressing and and not at all conducive to learning. Basically you go in whenever you like and log in (that is if your logon hasn't been suspended - which meant approximately a week of delays before someone bothered to get around to resetting it - this also means that you have just wasted your time going in there in the first place).

You sit and watch a computer screen while it tells you the stuff your supposed to be learning. If you have a question - well you can't ask the computer can you - so you toddle off to find an instructor to help. Therein lies the next problem. If your instructor is not around to help you (possibly on a nav) you either have to ask another instructor - who is not necessarily keen to help you if you're not their student. So you either get some vague assistance or you wait for your instructor to come back (zzzzz) or forget about asking the question and continue on without finding the answer - not exactly ideal particularly if the query was crucial to understanding of the topic.

I found that gradually over time the gaps in my learning were increasing - to the point where I ended up ditching the computer based training - I self studied for the PPL exam and then left to do my CPL subjects with Lionel Taylor at Moorabbin. Through his teaching, I passed every exam first time and completed ALL of my exams in 4 months with very good results.

Find yourself a school that is serious about the theory and will provide you with all the support and assistance that you need to get through it. Computer Based Training is cheaper for the schools as it is one less wage they have to pay - they onsell it to you at a considerable profit to themselves. Look beyond the slick advertising and ask for actual success stories - how many of their ex. students have actually been employed by the big airlines (Qantas/Virgin).

Good luck with finding the right school for you.
:)

[inxs]

Is Moloney Aviation, Essendon Flying School and Galaxy still around?
aahh..somebody from my era, I presume..???

[Mr. Boeing]

What about John Archibald? He used to run a one man show out at Romsey and was very highly regarded. Is he still around?

[LUVJET]

wannaflyrightnow,

did you make a decision ? intersting to see how you ended up.

[Reverseflowkeroburna]

Underneath The Radar............
I'll be the first to acknowledge that MB can offer one the benefit of having to deal with a somewhat busier/higher density circuit area and a handy training area, but please don't be so pitifully narrow-minded so as to think that your view is 'the' view.
- airspace restrictions/clearances not available (wasted $$$)
- long transits to training area (wasted $$$)
- long transits to MPC/BSS for circuits (wasted $$$)
- large landing fees (wasted $$$)
- long taxis (wasted $$$)

From my experience of many years of operating out of EN, including learning to fly there:
- ATC delays/restrictions were minimal (excluding departures to the Northwest obviously), in any case no worse than AF, JT, BK etc.
- Valuable experience/discipline can be obtained in the very environment that you as a professional pilot will ultimately have to deal with on a daily basis.
- Any benefit from the 'busy' MB circuit is more than compensated for in a pilot having to exercise due consideration/airmanship in sharing airspace and runways with King Airs, Global Express's, Iskras, DC-3s, GIVs etc.
- "Long transits" to training areas always offered valuable navigational experience which was tempered with weather appreciation that was generally more crucial to the days outcome.
- Large landing fees???? No more 'expensive' than elsewhere I've always thought.
- Taxi times were also comparable to anywhere else (unless you got stuck behind transitting MB aircraft that alway seemed to stop at the runway exits.) and certainly no longer than 13L & 17L at MB.
Of course, that is MHO.........and I can accept that others may be at variance to that.
I should also ponder the question to those interested parties..........."How many areodromes are there in Australia where GFPT holders have the choice of flying to 2 or 3 others airfields??????"
Luvjet, NAT/DAC is not the "one" option at EN for your so called "complete" career. I trained with, trained others at, and worked for, the one organisation at EN and they still exist there in that capacity. While I'm not endorsing any particular choice (that will be up to wannaflyrightnow!), clearly your option is not the only "one!"
Rant over............

[Continental-520]

So how much are they charging to get experience through Direct Air? A colleague of mine told me they were fairly expensive and that any line experience one obtained through their links with Direct Air was outweighed by the costs.

What's the qualifier of that statement??

I think you'll find that those who went that way are actually doing bloody well for themselves, so there's little support for it there.

I think it all comes down to attitude, like in all jobs at the end of the day. The worth of what you undertake is determined by your attitude in the end.


520.

[Centaurus]

Reverseflow etc etc etc. Suggest a less superfluous user name would help with replies.

"Long transits" to training areas always offered valuable navigational experience which was tempered with weather appreciation that was generally more crucial to the days outcome

Apart from cross-country exercises it has always been desirable to keep dual instruction to one hour block time or less. Most country flying schools where the training area is on the spot stick to this. A glance at the CASA Flight Instructor's Manual reveals the suggested sequence of training for GFPT (restricted PPL) includes anything from 45 minutes to one hour period lengths. That means the time needed for a specific sequence such as circuits, operation of controls and other ab-initio sequences before the student reaches saturation point.

Transits from Essendon to BCS and return use up at least 30 minutes. More if the training area west of BCS is used. That leaves less than 30 minutes for the specific sequences which may include climbing to specific minimum altitudes below CTA once in the BCS training area. Is it no wonder that average time to first solo when operating from EN to the BCS area is in excess of 15-18 hours. In fact, the CFI of one flying school at EN who used BCS, boasted that he refused to allow any student to solo before 20 hours in order to ensure the student gained situational awareness experience. Now that is a rip-off.

The place for dedicated navigational training is after the GFPT if the student so wishes and not when the student is learning to fly basic manoeuvres prior to first solo. It is indeed unfortunate that EN training is not permitted and operations are restricted to departures and arrivals to BCS and elsewhere. But to pretend transits to BCS are not in reality a waste of hard earned student money is a bit beyond the pale.

[OZAZTEC]

First Solo at YMPC this week in 10.2 Hours. :D Student has Prec search and Forced landings.

The student will have GFPT well inside 25 and probably 22 hours.
Pearsons and Direct Air do NOT use YBSS for training. Would suggest that YBCS (Cairns) would be one hell of a Navigation exercise from Essendon. That would be ripping of the student!

As an instructor it is a challenge and a goal to get the student up to speed in the shortest time possible. We should always be aware of what it is costing the student!

Paul

[Centaurus]

Ozaztec. I stuffed up - I really meant Bacchus. No names of EN flying school operators were mentioned in my post. It was a general observation of the penalties of using Bacchus from EN and burning up hours. 10 hours to first solo operating from EN is very well done - usually because of an experienced instructor.

[Reverseflowkeroburna]

Centaurus,

You could always use an abbreviation such as below, or as you suggested, not reply at all! Obviously your attention span is somewhat limited by these sorts of things, otherwise you would have read to the end of the first sentence were I indicated that all 'individuals' are entitled to their own view/opinion, but that they should not suggest this is the only possibility!

I was not saying that EN-based training is 'the' way to go, so to speak, merely pointing out what I believe to be some of the pros and cons.

That is my view, and I stand by it!

As for, "the place for dedicated navigational training" being post-GFPT. I agree with one exception. If a student can foresee that they may have a considerable break in their training (eg. to save up for their navs, change in financial circumstances etc.), having the option of four or five airfields and their respective training areas to fly to, will surely provide greater scope for variety, fun and interesting aviating!

Just something else for the individual to consider.

As I said, my two cents.

Paul........Well done!

RFKB :ok:

[LUVJET]

reverseflowferoburna,

yeah ....who.....

you have about four other schools (thats if they are still operating) , i challange you to name one that can provide the training and then have the capacity to provide a salaried position within the organisation and provide you with close to max hours monthly.

i might go on a vacation now and come back in about a month. i bet you will still be thinking. (or not)

[Reverseflowkeroburna]

Luv, I said Pet.......I said Luv,

I was not aware anyone had mentioned a salaried position nor flying max hours........as I have not!!! That is not to say that there weren't any salaried employees working there though. I simply stated that I trained at the place that offered me my first form of employment, which included instruction and charter.

When I left Melbourne, it was for full-time employment on a turbine powered aircraft...........thereby proving that NAT/DAC is not the only option.

And no, I'll not be naming them, that was not the intent of my post, I'm not attempting to persuade Wannaflyrightnow towards one organisation or another. :=

Have a nice holiday!

RF

[triadic]

When considering any flying school, one should look at the instructor ranks and the experience of the line instructors and the CFI. Whilst it is likely that you will fly with junior instructors, you should insist on having one instructor at least until you go solo. If they chop and change on you, that is not good and more than enough reason to look elsewhere. If you think you are getting screwed about then insist that you fly with a senior instructor. Stick with the same one and considering canceling a lesson if your usual instructor is not available. As a general rule the quality of instruction is not as good as it was 15+ years ago, so it is all the more important that you assess the quality of the product from whatever school/s you are looking at, and you can usually only do that by asking about. If you believe you are not getting the best possible training then front the CFI and if he/she does not fix it, then go elsewhere.

I have no experience with the two schools mentioned, but a lot of experience in days gone by at EN. Yes, it is a good place to learn, but times have changed and you may well find that it is not good bang for the buck unless you receive good high quality instruction.

I agree with the comments that country flying schools are usually the best value, even if you have to take a few weeks off and do it full time.

Good luck
:ok: