PAI:PAX storm into first class at 35,000ft (MERGED)

[lexxity]

Apparentely a group of pax "stormed" the first class cabin.

Full story here (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/212/212448_midair_mutiny_on_flight_pk701.html)

[bealine]

Taken from a posting on www.flyertalk.com - source of article unknown.

14 ARRESTED AFTER ECONOMY PASSENGERS STORM FIRST CLASS
By Pat Hurst, PA.

Angry economy passengers stormed first class on an international flight in a
mid-air upgrading mutiny, it was disclosed today.

The pilot of the packed Pakistan International Airlines jet radioed ahead, and
14 people were arrested on suspicion of endangering the aircraft after landing
at Manchester Airport.

Cabin crew lost control after the flight was delayed for four hours in searing
heat on the tarmac at Islamabad airport in Pakistan.

With economy packed, a number of passengers decided to upgrade themselves to the empty luxury section at the front of the Boeing 747.
It is believed the crew asked them to move but they refused, so police were
called in as the plane landed in the UK on Friday morning.

A spokesman for Greater Manchester Police said: "Police at Manchester Airport were alerted to a problem on an incoming PIA flight from Pakistan.
"Several passengers were reported to be trying to enter the first class area
of the plane.
"When the plane landed, 14 of the passengers were arrested on suspicion of
endangering an aircraft in flight.
"They have all been bailed until the end of June, pending further
inquiries."
A spokesman for the airline refused to comment.
A duty manager at Manchester Airport confirmed there had been an incident but had no further details.

[BMI701EGCC]

Just heard on the news that passengers on a Pakinstan International Airlines flight heading for Manchester stormed into first class from economy, when they saw that this section was almost empty. This happened while in cruise, the captain informed the local authorities;resulting in many arrests when the aircraft dock.

I think the aircraft was a 747-300 series, form either islamabad or Kirachi(please correct if wrong)


this was heard on Century FM, if anyone has any more please post below...

cheers

scott waterworth

[angels]

A spokesman for the airline said: “There were no problems. Everything was fine.”


14 arrested. No problems?? Jeez, I wonder what happens when PIA do have problems!

[Leezyjet]

I have heard of cases similar where individual passengers have done this on flights in the past, and the crew have asked the pax to move and pax have refused, so crew carried on and just served them like all other first pax. They radioed ahead for the Police to meet a/c, and on arrival gave the pax a choice - either pay the fare difference or be arrested.

:ok:

[green granite]

Taken from a posting on www.flyertalk.com (http://www.flyertalk.com) - source of article unknown.


The pilot of the packed Pakistan International Airlines jet radioed ahead, and
14 people were arrested on suspicion of endangering the aircraft after landing
at Manchester Airport.



Perhaps some one could explain to a mere ground hog, how people moving from economy class to first class could endanger an aircraft? surley there must be a more appropriate charge? :confused::confused:

[BMI701EGCC]

i dont no which side to take on this, the passengers have paid for a certain level of service, so they shouldnt be unhappy when cabin crew refuses entery to first.

On the other hand, economy was full as described in the above article, so to relieve some stress not only on the crew but to the passengers it would be a sensible move to upgrade some passengers to first, thus making more room in ecomony.

Another question i would like to ask...

Are cabin crews assigned to certain sections of the aircraft, if this is the case then crews in first would have been underworked?so would it have made sense to move some passengers into first, but to stay on the same food as ecomony?

I think that the passengers should of asked first, istead of storming, but we've all been in the situation on planes where its hot and stuffy, its easy to get annoyed!

i'de like thoughts on this please

thanks

scott waterworth

[Getoutofmygalley]

Are cabin crews assigned to certain sections of the aircraft

Yes

if this is the case then crews in first would have been underworked

Not necessarily, they might have done what a lot of other airlines do, and only have a specific cabin crew compliment appropriate to the amount of pax booked in first, and have the remainder allocated to economy. I believe BA do something like this where on some flights, an aircraft might have 5 crew, but on other occasions only 4 crew - it depends on pax loads in business/first etc.

Perhaps some one could explain to a mere ground hog, how people moving from economy class to first class could endanger an aircraft? surley there must be a more appropriate charge? :confused: :confused:

I agree partly with what you are saying (I am cabin crew), but the pax have paid to travel economy and to travel in first you should be paying more. If a pax is asked to do something and they refuse, then they are considered to be disobeying the lawful commands of the commander, as issued thru the cabin crew. If a pax refuses to sit in their assigned seat, how do you know they will do what they are told to do in the event of an emergency?

If PIA let these passengers get away with their self-upgrade, what is to stop pax on another flight doing the same thing? You have to have pax sitting in their assigned seats as load sheets for cargo & baggage would be worked out according to where the pax were supposed to be sitting. And let's say worse case scenario, there was a hull loss, pax records would show Mr Smith in say 26F but if he had 'upgraded' himself to 10A then the families may not possibly know what happened to their loved one if the seat from 26F survived but the seat from 10A was BBQ'd :uhoh:

[BMI701EGCC]

Getoutofmygalley, thanks for clearing things up, i suppose that would make sense, only crewing for what it needed, or else airlines would be even more in debt

cheers

scott

[Globaliser]

Full story here (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/212/212448_midair_mutiny_on_flight_pk701.html)And here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=224836), too, although you did beat bealine to it!

[SXB]

I also don't see how these people could be accused of endangering the aircraft for changing their class of seat (assuming that's all they did) Maybe they could be charged with deception in the same way as someone who buys a second class ticket on a train who then moves to 1st and refuses to pay the extra.

Despite what Getoutofmygalley says not every instruction from cabin crew can be automatically construed as legal order from the commander of the aircraft, this is especially true if someone were being prosecuted for endangering the aircraft because they moved to a different seat and then refused to return to their correctly assigned seat after the 'order' was issued. We all know that cabin crew don't give a damn about PAX changing seats as long as it's within the same class. Any first year lawyer would be able to successfully argue this if his client were accused of endangering an aircraft because he changed seats.

Obviously I'm not condoning what these PAX did nor am I even suggesting that anyone should even consider ignoring a request to do something from a member of the cabin crew, I normally work on the assumption that if they tell me to do something then it's for a good reason and I'll do it because they know what they're doing and they know an awful lot more about aircraft than I do.

[Jordan D]

Story (almost exactly repeated as above) is at BBC News:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/4980364.stm

Jordan

[PAXboy]

My guess is that the term 'endangering' the a/c was used as it is a sure fire way to arrest them. What the pax were attempting (and apparently achieved) was to steal seating space from the airline but that might have been difficult to use as a term to get the Police on board. Getting them arrested at destination (and publicising this back home) was vital to dissuade others from trying this on.

[Nov71]

May I suggest this could be a PR disaster for PIA if any of the 14 are acquitted by a Mcr jury of 'endangering an aircraft in flight'

The UK media are calling it an 'upgrade mutiny' In Joe Publics eye a mutiny is the takeover of a craft against lawful authority eg The Bounty. According to reports, no attempt was made to enter the flight deck - terrorism?

'Stealing' an upgrade? More space & better seats Ok but there would only be enough meals for those with appropriate class tickets. The cabin crew could have identified those entitled to free alcohol etc.

The PIA website shows international route 747-300 have 45 business/economy plus seats and 388 in economy

The pax were held in the a/c at Islamabad for 4 hr in the heat before departure, fraying tempers. In the US I suggest a number of pax (not nec the vociferous ones) would have been offered a free seat upgrade to even the pressure - and avoid lawsuits. First class pax could have been moved upstairs since I doubt PIA use it for a cocktail lounge.

I await the trial outcome with interest

[lorddee]

that the Cabin crew keep either the bus class or 1st class closed if no pax ...thus means they all can sit down and have a good chin wag not suprised other pax caused a stink .Trhe cabin crew should have offered the extra seeting to those ff pax they know who flys regular from the PIL from ground stadd

[mutt]

What an awesome concept, buy a cheap economy seat and then force your way into Business class!! They should name them, shame them, make them pay their own legal fees and then ban them from the airline!

If they have a complaint against the airline, they should have taken it up through the proper channels after landing!

Mutt

[Getoutofmygalley]

Many times i have flown various airlines and it seems
that the Cabin crew keep either the bus class or 1st class closed if no pax ...thus means they all can sit down and have a good chin wag not suprised other pax caused a stink .Trhe cabin crew should have offered the extra seeting to those ff pax they know who flys regular from the PIL from ground stadd

What a load of twaddle!

If no pax buy a ticket for business class or first class, then why should the economy pax automatically be given a seat in business or first? It doesn't happen on a train so why should it on an aircraft?

And you are making a huge assumption that the cabin crew don't offer upgrades just so that they can have a chin wag! When the cabin crew have finished the appropriate level of service, for that particular moment in the flight, why shouldn't they have a cup of coffee and a chat? Cabin Crew are human too and need to have a break :*

[dangodz]

On the other hand, economy was full as described in the above article, so to relieve some stress not only on the crew but to the passengers it would be a sensible move to upgrade some passengers to first, thus making more room in ecomony.
Ok, so how would you pick and move 14 Pax out of cattle class and into 1st class? Ask for volenteers? I think you'd have more trouble on your hands then when you started.

[Nov71]

First, discreetly identify Airline Frequent Flyer members otherwise

Single adults seated next to young children/family group
3rd trimesster pregnant women, - saves moving them later in the flight when contractions start
OAPs with mobility problems - on safety grounds benefits from extra leg room
Anyone with an inside leg >34 in - extra leg room
Anyone over 200 lbs - more seat space
Airline shareholders
All would appreciate the extra consideration
Snorers, & fa*ters - optional

Once the flight has closed, flight income and costs are fixed. I suppose you could hold a mid-air auction for spare first class seats...... but all that is on offer is more space, less noise and a different movie.

I do not suggest free class upgrades on every flight, but if economy is full then the PR value costs nothing, and even those left in econ will appreciate reduction in stress.
I have yet to see an econ pax mutiny just for an upgrade

Trains are somewhat different. A ticket does not guarantee a seat but Sir Peter Parker ex BR chairman said everyone was entitled.
Anyone without a seat would likely suffer more injury in an accident so it becomes a Health & Safety / Compensation Issue
On Virgin Lon-Mcr there are often 6 1st class & 6 standard carriages if 2nd class is full the central 1st class carriage is re-designated. Even then there are plenty of available seats in First.
On one trip the 0715 arrived before the 0655 and everyone boarded
Fights developed over seat reservations and a few of us migrated to First.
When the Ticket Inspector explained we were not entitled we said 'tell us where there is a 2nd class seat and we will move' No response. That is what I call a 'discretionary response to circumstance'

[PAXboy]

Nov 71 I'm sure that you are well aware that but all that is on offer is more space, less noise and a different movie. is the whole point!! That people pay for that and by giving it away you are making big trouble for yourself in the months and years ahead - ask almost any US carrier.


if economy is full then the PR value costs nothing You are joking aren't you? You have read all of the valid opinions on this in other threads, haven't you? You know, the ones posted by people who work in the biz?


Trains are somewhat different. Actually, they are a lot different. The whole pattern of usage and costs and service are so different that you cannot draw a comparison.

[View From The Ground]

Hmmm and how would the four people who had paid the appropriate business class fare feel when a coachload of people from economy are upgraded for free.....None to happy methinks! In order to preserve the integrity of the premium product free upgrades are a no no under most circumstances...and certainly in this case of outright disobediance of legitimate and reasonable instructions from the crew. I also wonder if the aircraft had APU or Ground Power running? odds are that it may have been 100 degrees outside but it was somewhat less on the inside.
A four hour delay is inconvenient but far worse things have happened, sounds like these pax were totally out of order....
I personally believe that the charge of endangering an aircraft is about right, because if pax are not carrying out legitimate instructions from cabin crew...who is to know what other instructions they might ignore....please be seated because of turbulence/landing etc...no smoking in toilets etc etc...For the aircraft to be completely safe it needs to be in the command of its crew both flight deck and cabin....
I hope the pax concerned get a significant 'slap' on the wrist...a few days in jail might make them re-think their view of an economy class airline service!! luxury I am sure compared to the clink!

[Nov71]

I DO NOT CONDONE disruptive pax, whether irate or drunk: nor do I suggest letting the great unwashed dictate which Class they sit in. Generally, I find most pax compliant. I do not know the facts of this case other than a 4 hour delay before t/o at Islamabad in 100 deg heat. Doors open?
Presumably pax did not invade First until en route - otherwise off-load.
What made conditions worse? Pax tend to settle once on their way.
14 disruptive pax at 35,000ft, most? pilots would divert and off-load asap.
Presumably they settled down in their newly-acquired seats. Why were they not happy with the ones allocated?

1. o/n charter to Corfu t/o delayed 1 hr, flight crew 'problem' Corfu closed on approach - fog. Diverted to Brindisi 4am. Held on aircraft until 11am without food or water. Captain finally convinced the Italians to let us in to the Terminal to avoid a mutiny. Corfu opened mid morning but Greek ATC delays and flying hours meant we reached Corfu after 25 hours. Only the crew 'blamed' the weather. Mutterings of "if we had taken off on time" were heard along with observations about the parentage of some Greek & Italian officials.
2. Full BA econ long-haul o/n bulkhead seat so did not recline. Woman in front insisted on full-recline. Angle meant I could not view the in-seat screen & my knees were jammed against her seat. After some pleading I was allowed to find another seat - in the same Class! Econ plus was virtually empty.

As regard ticket prices - the latest game on the lo-cos is find the pax who paid the highest and lowest price

[BANANASBANANAS]

Having read all of the above, it just makes me very glad that I am now flying freighters.

My 2 cents. Consider how the genuine first class pax would feel, knowing that they had paid full whack for their seats but 14 EY pax are now getting the same luxury ride for the price of an EY fare and a bit of shoulder barging.

Yes, it is endangering (at least potentially) the safety of the aircraft and yes the 14 errant pax have disobeyed a lawful command of the Captain.

I like the idea muted above of explaining the situation to them and giving them the choice of pay up or be arrested on arrival.

I would caveat all I have written by stating that I have never paxed on the airline mentioned and would expect EY to be of a standard commensurate with the ticket price. If that were not to be the case then the airline are (imho) inviting trouble.:ok:

[Crepello]

14 errant pax have disobeyed a lawful command of the Captain.
That's the crux, as I see it. The commander of an aircraft has legal authority over all on board - even at the lowliest level. As my PPL instructor remarked, albeit in his jocular manner: "When you're in command, BE in command. If you tell your pax to sing, they have to sing!" My preflight checklist now includes auditions... ;)

Should people choose to ignore the PIC's instructions, I'd "hope" this would equate to endangering the aircraft. I'd like to see convictions on this one; no heavy penalties but a message well sent. In it's absence, there'd be dangerous implications.

Maybe we need bulkhead doors between Economy and Business... :E Failing that, give the self-upgraders all the trappings of J - as that's what they're about to be invoiced for. Chances are, after a few drinks they'd be paying out like fruit-machines to avoid the handcuffs. :ok:

[derekvader]

It doesn't happen on a train so why should it on an aircraft?

Actually it does happen quite often on a train, especially when one's been cancelled or the seat reservations have been screwed up, and there are too many passengers for standard class.

However the difference in service and price between train first and standard class is not so great as it is on a plane, so this makes it more acceptable; and there are generally lots of first class areas on a train (e.g. the separate carriages) so you can still keep the fully paid up first class people separate.

So I agree that it's not really on for economy passengers on a plane to upgrade themselves to biz or first class.

That said, I generally pick Continental over BA on the transatlantic flights I take, and a key reason I do that is BA's hopeless upgrade policy. I've quite often been on a BA flight with a full economy cabin but an empty business and premium economy cabin. In these circumstances, since no paid-up business passengers would be affected (if there are any, move them to first) by cheaper-ticket passengers invading their cabin, it would do BA a lot more good in repeat business opportunities if they would let a few regulars and respectables move up to business or even premium economy.

[Hotel Mode]

If you went to a car dealer and bought a Ford Fiesta would you expect them to give you a Mondeo because they had some left?

Its well known what flights have high economy/low business loads if upgrades were just done "because it was a bit full" down the back noone would pay Business fares its protecting your market.

[Pax Vobiscum]

There was a lengthy discussion on upgrades recently here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=222005). But I don't think Hotel Mode's comparison is fair - the car dealer can sell the Mondeo to another customer with deeper pockets, but BA can't sell the Club seat once the flight has left the gate.

Bottom line, if I simply must be in C, I'll buy a C ticket, but if I've made the decision to travel Y, and I have a choice between airline A where there's a policy of no upgrades and airline B where I've a sporting chance of an upgrade, guess which one I'll pick? (All other things being equal - which they never are in the real world!)