Wall Street Journal on Expat Pilots (including EK)

[IXNAT]

Thought this might be interesting. Front page of the Wall Street Journal this morning. Highlights EK.



http://online.wsj.com/img/b.gifU.S. Pilots Sign OnAt Foreign Airlines
Global Travel Boom Yields
Tempting Pay for Expats;
Concerns About Safety
A Captain's New Life in Dubai
By SUSAN CAREY in Chicago, BRUCE STANLEY in Hong Kong, AND JOHN LARKIN in Mumbai
May 5, 2006; Page A1

Nearly two years ago, at age 51, Brian Murray took early retirement from US Airways (http://online.wsj.com/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=LCC). The pilot was outraged by the airline's termination of his pension plan and worried about his future with a carrier sliding toward bankruptcy court for the second time.
But Capt. Murray's flying career was far from over. Today he lives in Dubai and flies wide-body Airbus A330s for fast-growing Emirates Airlines, winging to exotic destinations in Europe, Africa and Asia. He's home more than he ever was at US Airways, and his total compensation package -- including health care, housing allowance, retirement plan and vacation -- is superior. He says his wife and children enjoy living in the United Arab Emirates, and "from a professional standpoint, it couldn't be better."
http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/images/HC-GH957_Murray_20060504184043.gif In a new twist on global outsourcing, a flock of U.S. pilots is fleeing the depressed North American airline industry to work in far reaches of the world where aviation is booming. After the 2001 terrorist attacks stifled air travel and sent the U.S. industry into its deepest decline ever, more than 10,000 U.S. pilots were laid off, and many more took early retirement. Despite subsequent hiring by a few healthy carriers, including Southwest Airlines, thousands haven't been able to find new flying jobs at their old pay grades.
At the same time, the industry is expanding rapidly in China, India, Southeast Asia and the Middle East. As these regions have grown more affluent and loosened aviation restrictions, travel demand has soared. New airlines have started up, existing carriers are adding routes, and hundreds of new jets are on order.
So, like British and Australian pilots who long have plied their trade wherever they find work, more Yanks are taking their skills offshore. They are doing so despite trepidations about moving families, flying on short-term contracts, and sometimes giving up union rights to be called back to work by U.S. carriers according to seniority.
U.S. pilots are working as far afield as Bolivia, China, Qatar and Vietnam. Hong Kong-based Cathay Pacific Airways (http://online.wsj.com/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=0293.hk) and Singapore Airlines (http://online.wsj.com/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=s55.sg) are hiring more Americans, as are carriers in Taiwan and South Korea, and increasingly, in India.
The diaspora is one symptom of a growing global shortage of well-trained commercial pilots. Aerospace giant Boeing Co. estimates the global jet fleet will grow to more than 35,000 airplanes in 2024, from fewer than 17,000 in 2004. Boeing pegs demand for new pilots at nearly 18,000 a year through 2024. China alone will need more than 35,000 new pilots over 20 years, and the rest of Asia will need 56,500, the company estimates. Many countries are currently unable to train enough pilots at home.
The result: a global bazaar where experienced pilots go to the highest bidder. Norwegians and Venezuelans are flying in China, Egyptians and Russians in India, Jamaicans and Iranians for a Japanese carrier. Four out of five pilots at Qatar Airways are foreign. More than 70 Philippine Airlines pilots have quit since 2003 for better-paying jobs elsewhere. Etihad Airways, a new airline based in Abu Dhabi, says its No. 1 source of pilots is Malaysia. India's fleet of startup carriers was so plagued by pilot poaching that the government last year began requiring pilots to serve at least six months at one carrier before moving on.
G.R. Gopinath, managing director for Air Deccan, a two-year-old budget airline in India, says he has been recruiting a dozen pilots a month from overseas. "If Indian software engineers can work in the U.S., their pilots can come and work here," he says. "It's reverse body-shopping." Pilot job fairs in the U.S. have begun attracting recruiters for Chinese and Indian startups, according to Kit Darby, president of Air Inc., a placement firm.
The hiring frenzy has led to some safety concerns. English is the industry's world-wide language. Putting two pilots with different native languages in the same cockpit, where they might have to interact with an air-traffic controller whose native tongue is different still, can lead to problems, especially in emergencies, contends Dennis Dolan, a retired Delta Air Lines captain and president of the U.K.-based International Federation of Air Line Pilots' Associations, which represents pilot unions and associations in 95 countries.
The International Civil Aviation Organization, an agency of the United Nations, intends in 2008 to begin English-proficiency testing of pilots and air-traffic controllers who handle international flights. India proposed that measure after a 1996 accident in which the flight crew of a Kazakh Airways jet misunderstood an Indian controller's instructions, leading to a midair collision with a Saudi Arabian Airlines plane near New Delhi. India also cited the 1995 crash of an American Airlines jet near Cali, Colombia, in which miscommunication between a Colombian controller and a U.S. crew was a contributing factor.
Jim Burin, director of technical programs for the Alexandria, Va.-based Flight Safety Foundation, an international nonprofit group, points to another safety concern. "In some cultures, it's not the place of the second-in-command to question the first-in-command," he says. That could interfere with the co-pilot's role as a check on the captain, who commands the flight.
http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/images/P1-AE690_Pilots_20060504194902.gif One pilot who moved from a U.S. airline to a national carrier in Southeast Asia says that informational updates on safety at his new employer arrive late or not at all, and that little attention is paid to punctuality or how many hours pilots work. "Training for the most part is far from the quality I was used to in the U.S.," says the 55-year-old captain, who asked not to be identified for fear of angering his employer. He adds that he likes the lifestyle and finds the job "relatively easy."
Capt. Murray, who flies out of Dubai, says safety standards are high at Emirates, and its 1,350 pilots from 70 nations speak fluent English. He says pilots are "treated with respect in this part of the world. We're driven to work. We're put in four- and five-star hotels, on the concierge floors. Captains are treated as vice presidents of the organization."
Some out-of-work U.S. pilots balk at going overseas for family reasons. Some hope to be recalled by U.S. carriers and don't want to give up their seniority rights. Duane Woerth, president of the Air Line Pilots Association, a U.S. union, says foreign carriers are interested in senior pilots, not junior ones. He worries about the "brain drain" and whether foreign carriers are using U.S. pilots only temporarily until they can staff up with their own citizens. But "our guys are warming up to it," he says. "This one looks like a permanent structural shift."
Andrew Baedke, who was furloughed by Northwest Airlines (http://online.wsj.com/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=nwac) after Sept. 11, has worked for the past three years as a Honolulu-based 747 first officer, or co-pilot, for Jalways, a subsidiary of Japan Airlines (http://online.wsj.com/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=9205.TO). "A lot of my [laid-off] friends are sitting at home or working for Home Depot," says Mr. Baedke, who is 36 years old. "I'm glad to have this job. It's extremely stable."
One reason for the pilot shortage is that developing nations aren't training enough of them at home. There are not enough flight schools in the world to meet demand, says Brent Mills, the chief executive officer of Spartan College of Aeronautics and Technology, a flight academy in Tulsa, Okla., that plans to open schools in India with a local partner in the next year. It takes many years for a college graduate to accumulate sufficient flight training and commercial flying hours to climb the professional ladder from novice to first officer to captain.
Some nations, such as Japan and Ethiopia, have raised the mandatory retirement age for commercial pilots to alleviate the shortage. ICAO, the U.N. agency, will recommend later this year that the age be raised to 65 from 60, although member nations will not be required to do so.
The Chinese government runs a school in Sichuan province that graduated 307 novice pilots last year. China Southern Airlines (http://online.wsj.com/quotes/main.html?type=djn&symbol=znh), the nation's largest carrier by fleet size, has its own school in Australia. In 2004, four Chinese investors opened Beijing PanAm International Aviation Academy, which 240 students now attend.
Nevertheless, Gao Hongfeng, deputy director of the Civil Aviation Administration of China, says there are almost enough native pilots to staff the new airplanes China has on order, but it will be difficult for the nation to train enough "mature captains" quickly.
Chinese airlines are filling in with expatriates. Tim Shattock, chief executive of Parc Aviation Ltd., a Dublin firm that leases pilots to airlines, says "our intelligence says there are 120 to 150 foreign pilots in mainland China."
India counts more. Deregulation has spawned startup airlines, an influx of international flights, and 20% annual passenger growth. India expects to need 2,500 new pilots by 2010. At Jet Airways, the nation's largest private carrier, 111 of its 685 pilots are foreign. Air Deccan has 75 foreigners among its 250 pilots, and is setting up its own flight school in Bangalore.
Compensation for the foreign gigs varies widely. But it is often better than what U.S. pilots can earn at home, where pay levels and benefits have been reduced by bankruptcy filings and restructurings. Richard Paul, an 18-year US Airways veteran who was bumped from captain to first officer during one round of layoffs, says he plans to quit soon and report for training to fly cargo at a large Asian carrier he declines to identify. The 46-year-old pilot says he will start as a first officer, but "in four or five years, I'll probably be a captain on a 747 and make twice as much" as the $72,000 a year he currently earns.
India's Air Deccan is offering $8,000 to $15,000 a month to foreign captains, according to Mr. Gopinath, the managing director. A captain in the U.S. on Northwest's smallest jet earns about $9,000 a month, while a captain on United Airlines's largest plane earns about $15,000, according to a recent survey by Air Inc.
American Craig Harnden, formerly a pilot for now-defunct Eastern Airlines, has worked overseas since 1990 for Saudi Arabian Airlines, Thai Airways International and now Singapore Airlines. "If I had known what I know now, I would probably have left Eastern and gone overseas a lot earlier," says the 59-year-old Miami native, who lives in Singapore. "But we didn't leave the airlines because of the seniority system."
William Goodwin left the U.S. in 1994 after working for two airlines that went under and a third that was acquired. He says he nearly doubled his pay by moving to Taiwan to captain 767s for Taipei-based EVA Air. "It was the smartest thing I've ever done," he says. He jumped to Korean Air in 2000, where as a captain of 747s he earns $152,000 a year after Korean taxes. The 54-year-old pilot says he hopes to stay until he retires at 60.
Mr. Baedke, the former Northwest pilot who now flies out of Honolulu for Jalways under a crew-leasing contract, says he's trying to spread the word to other American pilots. Many of his pilot friends, he says, were laid off after 9/11 and have not yet been called back.
As a first officer, Mr. Baedke earns $100 an hour, or $105,000 last year. He expects to begin training next month to become a captain, a process he says could take 2½ years. If he succeeds, his pay will climb to $150 an hour for the first 50 hours flown each month, and $180 an hour for anything exceeding that.
He no longer gives much thought to returning to Northwest. "Even if I had a chance to go back, I think I'd be at [a regional subsidiary] as a first officer, earning $23 an hour," he says. "There's no point."
---- Juying Qin in Hong Kong contributed to this article.

[GoForIt]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB114679336527844550.html?mod=DAI
With Jobs Scarce, U.S. Pilots Sign On At Foreign Airlines
Global Travel Boom Yields Tempting Pay for Expats; Concerns About Safety
A Captain's New Life in Dubai
By SUSAN CAREY in Chicago, BRUCE STANLEY in Hong Kong, AND JOHN LARKIN in Mumbai
May 5, 2006; Page A1

Nearly two years ago, at age 51, Brian Murray took early retirement from US Airways. The pilot was outraged by the airline's termination of his pension plan and worried about his future with a carrier sliding toward bankruptcy court for the second time.
http://www.gtek.us/share/ata/HC-GH957_Murray_20060504184043.gif
But Capt. Murray's flying career was far from over. Today he lives in Dubai and flies wide-body Airbus A330s for fast-growing Emirates Airlines, winging to exotic destinations in Europe, Africa and Asia. He's home more than he ever was at US Airways, and his total compensation package -- including health care, housing allowance, retirement plan and vacation -- is superior. He says his wife and children enjoy living in the United Arab Emirates, and "from a professional standpoint, it couldn't be better."

In a new twist on global outsourcing, a flock of U.S. pilots is fleeing the depressed North American airline industry to work in far reaches of the world where aviation is booming. After the 2001 terrorist attacks stifled air travel and sent the U.S. industry into its deepest decline ever, more than 10,000 U.S. pilots were laid off, and many more took early retirement. Despite subsequent hiring by a few healthy carriers, including Southwest Airlines, thousands haven't been able to find new flying jobs at their old pay grades.
At the same time, the industry is expanding rapidly in China, India, Southeast Asia and the Middle East. As these regions have grown more affluent and loosened aviation restrictions, travel demand has soared. New airlines have started up, existing carriers are adding routes, and hundreds of new jets are on order.

So, like British and Australian pilots who long have plied their trade wherever they find work, more Yanks are taking their skills offshore. They are doing so despite trepidations about moving families, flying on short-term contracts, and sometimes giving up union rights to be called back to work by U.S. carriers according to seniority.

U.S. pilots are working as far afield as Bolivia, China, Qatar and Vietnam. Hong Kong-based Cathay Pacific Airways and Singapore Airlines are hiring more Americans, as are carriers in Taiwan and South Korea, and increasingly, in India.

The diaspora is one symptom of a growing global shortage of well-trained commercial pilots. Aerospace giant Boeing Co. estimates the global jet fleet will grow to more than 35,000 airplanes in 2024, from fewer than 17,000 in 2004. Boeing pegs demand for new pilots at nearly 18,000 a year through 2024. China alone will need more than 35,000 new pilots over 20 years, and the rest of Asia will need 56,500, the company estimates. Many countries are currently unable to train enough pilots at home.

The result: a global bazaar where experienced pilots go to the highest bidder. Norwegians and Venezuelans are flying in China, Egyptians and Russians in India, Jamaicans and Iranians for a Japanese carrier. Four out of five pilots at Qatar Airways are foreign. More than 70 Philippine Airlines pilots have quit since 2003 for better-paying jobs elsewhere. Etihad Airways, a new airline based in Abu Dhabi, says its No. 1 source of pilots is Malaysia. India's fleet of startup carriers was so plagued by pilot poaching that the government last year began requiring pilots to serve at least six months at one carrier before moving on.

G.R. Gopinath, managing director for Air Deccan, a two-year-old budget airline in India, says he has been recruiting a dozen pilots a month from overseas. "If Indian software engineers can work in the U.S., their pilots can come and work here," he says. "It's reverse body-shopping." Pilot job fairs in the U.S. have begun attracting recruiters for Chinese and Indian startups, according to Kit Darby, president of Air Inc., a placement firm.

The hiring frenzy has led to some safety concerns. English is the industry's world-wide language. Putting two pilots with different native languages in the same cockpit, where they might have to interact with an air-traffic controller whose native tongue is different still, can lead to problems, especially in emergencies, contends Dennis Dolan, a retired Delta Air Lines captain and president of the U.K.-based International Federation of Air Line Pilots' Associations, which represents pilot unions and associations in 95 countries.
The International Civil Aviation Organization, an agency of the United Nations, intends in 2008 to begin English-proficiency testing of pilots and air-traffic controllers who handle international flights. India proposed that measure after a 1996 accident in which the flight crew of a Kazakh Airways jet misunderstood an Indian controller's instructions, leading to a midair collision with a Saudi Arabian Airlines plane near New Delhi. India also cited the 1995 crash of an American Airlines jet near Cali, Colombia, in which miscommunication between a Colombian controller and a U.S. crew was a contributing factor.

Jim Burin, director of technical programs for the Alexandria, Va.-based Flight Safety Foundation, an international nonprofit group, points to another safety concern. "In some cultures, it's not the place of the second-in-command to question the first-in-command," he says. That could interfere with the co-pilot's role as a check on the captain, who commands the flight.

One pilot who moved from a U.S. airline to a national carrier in Southeast Asia says that informational updates on safety at his new employer arrive late or not at all, and that little attention is paid to punctuality or how many hours pilots work. "Training for the most part is far from the quality I was used to in the U.S.," says the 55-year-old captain, who asked not to be identified for fear of angering his employer. He adds that he likes the lifestyle and finds the job "relatively easy."
Capt. Murray, who flies out of Dubai, says safety standards are high at Emirates, and its 1,350 pilots from 70 nations speak fluent English. He says pilots are "treated with respect in this part of the world. We're driven to work. We're put in four- and five-star hotels, on the concierge floors. Captains are treated as vice presidents of the organization."

Some out-of-work U.S. pilots balk at going overseas for family reasons. Some hope to be recalled by U.S. carriers and don't want to give up their seniority rights. Duane Woerth, president of the Air Line Pilots Association, a U.S. union, says foreign carriers are interested in senior pilots, not junior ones. He worries about the "brain drain" and whether foreign carriers are using U.S. pilots only temporarily until they can staff up with their own citizens. But "our guys are warming up to it," he says. "This one looks like a permanent structural shift."

Andrew Baedke, who was furloughed by Northwest Airlines after Sept. 11, has worked for the past three years as a Honolulu-based 747 first officer, or co-pilot, for Jalways, a subsidiary of Japan Airlines. "A lot of my [laid-off] friends are sitting at home or working for Home Depot," says Mr. Baedke, who is 36 years old. "I'm glad to have this job. It's extremely stable."

One reason for the pilot shortage is that developing nations aren't training enough of them at home. There are not enough flight schools in the world to meet demand, says Brent Mills, the chief executive officer of Spartan College of Aeronautics and Technology, a flight academy in Tulsa, Okla., that plans to open schools in India with a local partner in the next year. It takes many years for a college graduate to accumulate sufficient flight training and commercial flying hours to climb the professional ladder from novice to first officer to captain.

Some nations, such as Japan and Ethiopia, have raised the mandatory retirement age for commercial pilots to alleviate the shortage. ICAO, the U.N. agency, will recommend later this year that the age be raised to 65 from 60, although member nations will not be required to do so.

The Chinese government runs a school in Sichuan province that graduated 307 novice pilots last year. China Southern Airlines, the nation's largest carrier by fleet size, has its own school in Australia. In 2004, four Chinese investors opened Beijing PanAm International Aviation Academy, which 240 students now attend.

Nevertheless, Gao Hongfeng, deputy director of the Civil Aviation Administration of China, says there are almost enough native pilots to staff the new airplanes China has on order, but it will be difficult for the nation to train enough "mature captains" quickly.

Chinese airlines are filling in with expatriates. Tim Shattock, chief executive of Parc Aviation Ltd., a Dublin firm that leases pilots to airlines, says "our intelligence says there are 120 to 150 foreign pilots in mainland China."
India counts more. Deregulation has spawned startup airlines, an influx of international flights, and 20% annual passenger growth. India expects to need 2,500 new pilots by 2010. At Jet Airways, the nation's largest private carrier, 111 of its 685 pilots are foreign. Air Deccan has 75 foreigners among its 250 pilots, and is setting up its own flight school in Bangalore.

Compensation for the foreign gigs varies widely. But it is often better than what U.S. pilots can earn at home, where pay levels and benefits have been reduced by bankruptcy filings and restructurings. Richard Paul, an 18-year US Airways veteran who was bumped from captain to first officer during one round of layoffs, says he plans to quit soon and report for training to fly cargo at a large Asian carrier he declines to identify. The 46-year-old pilot says he will start as a first officer, but "in four or five years, I'll probably be a captain on a 747 and make twice as much" as the $72,000 a year he currently earns.

India's Air Deccan is offering $8,000 to $15,000 a month to foreign captains, according to Mr. Gopinath, the managing director. A captain in the U.S. on Northwest's smallest jet earns about $9,000 a month, while a captain on United Airlines's largest plane earns about $15,000, according to a recent survey by Air Inc.

American Craig Harnden, formerly a pilot for now-defunct Eastern Airlines, has worked overseas since 1990 for Saudi Arabian Airlines, Thai Airways International and now Singapore Airlines. "If I had known what I know now, I would probably have left Eastern and gone overseas a lot earlier," says the 59-year-old Miami native, who lives in Singapore. "But we didn't leave the airlines because of the seniority system."

William Goodwin left the U.S. in 1994 after working for two airlines that went under and a third that was acquired. He says he nearly doubled his pay by moving to Taiwan to captain 767s for Taipei-based EVA Air. "It was the smartest thing I've ever done," he says. He jumped to Korean Air in 2000, where as a captain of 747s he earns $152,000 a year after Korean taxes. The 54-year-old pilot says he hopes to stay until he retires at 60.

Mr. Baedke, the former Northwest pilot who now flies out of Honolulu for Jalways under a crew-leasing contract, says he's trying to spread the word to other American pilots. Many of his pilot friends, he says, were laid off after 9/11 and have not yet been called back.

As a first officer, Mr. Baedke earns $100 an hour, or $105,000 last year. He expects to begin training next month to become a captain, a process he says could take 2½ years. If he succeeds, his pay will climb to $150 an hour for the first 50 hours flown each month, and $180 an hour for anything exceeding that.

He no longer gives much thought to returning to Northwest. "Even if I had a chance to go back, I think I'd be at [a regional subsidiary] as a first officer, earning $23 an hour," he says. "There's no point."

---- Juying Qin in Hong Kong contributed to this article.

[FlyingSpanner]

QUOTE: Capt. Murray, who flies out of Dubai, says safety standards are high at Emirates, and its 1,350 pilots from 70 nations speak fluent English. He says pilots are "treated with respect in this part of the world. We're driven to work. We're put in four- and five-star hotels, on the concierge floors. Captains are treated as vice presidents of the organization."



From what I have read here that seems not to be the case!!
Spanner

[Vorsicht]

Not Feckin likely. There is a vast difference between the way VP's are treated and the way pilots are treated. Not the least being they get 2X profit share!!!!!!

[Muttley Crew]

total compensation package ..... is superior. I find that somewhat difficult to believe but if he says it's true... what aircraft type was he previously operating?pilots are "treated with respect in this part of the world. We're driven to work. We're put in four- and five-star hotels, on the concierge floors. Captains are treated as vice presidents of the organization."Now I know he's smokin' some good ganjaweed (http://www.barbneal.com/wav/uncat/mutlylaf.wav). I wonder how many yanks are swallowing this pile, back home in the US of A?

[Charlie Murdoch]

Hmmm...a two year DEC, who didn't have to jump through the command hoops here crowing about how good it is...

Pleased to see you have found a place to top off your retirement funds, obviously soon for the management ranks.

Look forward to seeing you in CBC...

[davidletterman]

Ahhhhh, KOOL-AID, I love it, please serve me another glass, half full it is!!!!!!!

[wastafarian]

I wonder how many yanks are swallowing this pile, back home in the US of A?

after this article, me thinks that b-52s over iran is not the only potential u.s. invasion we need to wory about in the region. :uhoh:

[sdcycles]

In terms of thinking of Humans as humans as opposed to a disposable capatalist resource, both these 'groups' of people, are very close. Let them come and discover each other. Could be a good match! Hurry up MAS

[specialrider987]

mr b. murray is an ostler

[Cerberus]

SR, Whats an ostler?

From where he has come he likes the way EK are doing things. Mind you, finding good things about EK compared to US Air is probably not too difficult at the moment. He has left an airline that has screwed him on his pension deal to come to the Middle East and things actually look better. From his years with US Air, he also has the advantage of a nice house in the States and a nest already pretty much feathered to go back to. That is if his investment pronouncements on the pilot's group are to believed.

As a DEC he has jumped the F/O queue and not seen how EK's package has deteriorated over the last few years. So he was on the top rung of US Airs ladder and as that has sunk into the mud he has jumped onto EK's ladder pretty high up. The snag is that our ladder is sinking too; just a bit slower!

Wasn't he one of the guys that went to the pilot recuitment symposiums in LA and Atlanta? So the word you are getting from the Wall Street Journal are the words the recruitment department of the company would like to put out. It is probably the word that most of us would have put out too during our first couple of years. The fact that Brian jumped the seniority list on the way could only add gloss to that impression. Don't worry though, it won't be long before he starts to spot there is sand in Dubai; as the ladder sinks further into it!

[puff m'call]

Captains in the airline are treated with respect! since when?

Staying in 4 and 5 star hotels, what's BNE then? 3 bloody star that's what.

Are you living in a dream world Brian? :yuk:

[Tail Rota]

Hi Guys ............ love the article

Isnt this one of those US CSI Police sketches of a man who is wanted by the authorities.:E
http://www.gtek.us/share/ata/HC-GH957_Murray_20060504184043.gif

Sounds to me like he loves it here and seems very happy. Good on ya mate.

TR:ok:

ps... are you the guy that went to the states on the EK road show to help recruit more DEC's.......if so how did it go?

[dooner]

Funny everytime I drink the Kool-aid on the aircraft it always tastes like sour grapes to me, must be drinking the wrong stuff, perhaps a little Dalwhinnie (Distiller's Edition) mixed-in might give me the same outlook......hmm:rolleyes:

Dooner:ok:

[330 Man]

The Brian bashing is getting out of hand. Just because he thinks this is better than USAirways, and you all disagree does not make him wrong or you right. Coming from Usair as well I fully understand his position. And it is not only Usair, it is now most of the US mainline pilots that can tell the same story as Brian. Since Sept 11, the pilots of Usair have taken a 53% paycut, had their pension fund disolved,parked nearly 200 jets, the smallest being the F100 and had nearly 2000 pilots loose their jobs. That along with nearly 1000 resignations and retirements has played havoc on their seniority. The junior pilot on the Usair active list was hired in March of 1988. He is the bottom First Officer at the company and he WAS a captain for 4 years on the 737. You will all find that most of the former Usair pilots at EK think that this is a very good job. I did not say it is the best, but it is better than most.
Most of you bashers need to understand that his reality is very different from yours. Your attacks are are unworthy and lacking any sence of professionalism. If you hate it here that much, than show some balls and quit. If this is as bad of a job as you say it is than vote with your feet. And if you just can not take it any more, than I encourage you to visit this website: www.airlineride.org
It is about a group of people who are doing a bike ride across the states to pay honor to the crews who died on Sept 11. It was organized by a guy named Tom Heidenberger who is a Usair pilot who lost his wife on the pentagon airplane. I have known Tommy for years and encourage you all to support this effort. When you think that you job is in the crapper, think of Tom. As he so clearly knows, your life could be a lot worse.
And also to all of those non EK pilots who read these forums remember, there are 2 sides to any story, usually the complainers are far fewer but much more vocal. There are things that I do not like at EK but I choose to make it a good job and enjoy it to the fullest, and this like any job is what you make of it. Even though there are things that Brian and I disagree on, I know that he enjoys this job to the fullest as well. He has the right to state his opinions, and you have the right to vocally disagree. No one has the right to attack him. (what is an ostler)?
Regards,
330 Man

[captainjohndo]

Who deleted my post?:mad:



The system logs clearly state that you deleted the post CJD. An attempt to edit it and some finger trouble perhaps? PPRuNE Admin

[Tail Rota]

Thanks Capt J

that has put a new perspective on the pencil drawing above:E

EK had to approve that article before publication. If it wasnt approved..... then the article goes against the rules of engagement..oops.... I meant employment. So I can only conclude this is another advert from EK to recruit more US pilots.

Hello 330 man

I am very sorry to hear about what has happened to you and your colleages in the States.........good on ya for loving it here in the sand:O
......if you havent noticed you have gone up the list about 50 slots....since last year due to pilots leaving...........and what is wrong with giving an opinion to others who may be looking at coming, and perhaps allowing them to come to the selection process a little more informed on some of the untold aspects of being in Dubai.


as far as the captains being treated as VP's of the organisation....do we have to start all of that again......there are plenty of examples of exactly the opposite happening........ I remeber it was an expat American who got nailed on the 777 recently for submitting paper work on an incident that he was involved in. So come 330 man at least be honest.

by the way you have contradicted yourself...you say

"The Brian bashing is getting out of hand"

I dont see anyone bashing Brian........and you then go on to say

"you have the right to vocally disagree"

thank you for allowing me to disagree........ So which is it .........can we or cant we?

TR:ok:

[whossorrynow]

If Captain Murray had been invited to join Emirates 10 years ago he would have laughed at the idea.

If 10 years ago someone from Emirates had been invited to join USair as a Captain with 10 years payscale seniority........

Fact is both USair and Emirates are worse places now than they were 10 years ago. USair by necessity and circumstance. Emirates by management inclination as a short term strategy with unfortunate long term implications.

I have no real issue with Captain Murray taking advantage of what is on offer. I do have an issue with him promoting it as some sort of aviation nirvana when most who have been here more than 5 minutes know otherwise.

As long as flight deck seats are filled management consider that they are doing their job.

Every legal day that I have been off in the last 3 months I have been rung by rostering to fly (for the shop stewards benefit I agreed to one change).

The system is close to breaking. And it needs to break because until it does we will continue to work to the maximum with minimum lifestyle and minimum compensation.

Step forward typhoonpilot and your familia. Dont be shy.

[typhoonpilot]

Well....since you invited me :)

I said it on the other thread and I'll say it again here, the comment in regards to how pilot's are treated,

" You guys are being a bit harsh. The comment was meant in the context of how pilots are treated by their employers in the States versus how they are treated while working overseas and/or at EK. It may be a surprise to some of you but, it is far better at EK than it is at most of the failing U.S. carriers."

Those of you who know who I am know that I have been here twice as long as Brian and I wouldn't even begin to consider going back to a job at a U.S. major. In fact, I shudder at the thought. I, too, enjoy my job at EK and my life in Dubai and I'm not afraid to tell people back home about it. They deserve to hear that there are other options. You may disagree, that's fine, but don't shoot the messenger.


Typhoonpilot

[Ahad Adump]

Brian bashing hasn't started yet.

Wait till CBC and isn't he the "billy-no-mates" that always tags along for a game of golf at the Ranches.....not anymore.

He jumped the que and now makes waves; NICE.

[whossorrynow]

So, things at USair were very good and now they are very bad.
Things at EK were quite good and now they are quite bad.

During this process USair has apparently declined further than Emirates, typhoonpilot has first hand knowledge of this, I do not.

Difference is that USair has probably bottomed out, EK is still sinking. The problems are different, the result is the same.

Disgruntled employees looking for an out.

Doubtless Direct Entry and Accelerated Commands act as softeners to the perspectives of Captain Murray and typhoonpilot.

The perspective of many others in EK, particularly the long termers, is one of more work, less reward, increase in fatigue enhancing rosters and a seniority list thrown aside and overidden by DECs and fleet requirements.

And please, 330 man, no more comments about voting with feet. Although many have done so, as many in the last 18 months as in the 10 years before, others have family considerations that make an uprooting appear even less attractive than staying (so far). And they may be the most vocal people on this forum.

[yardman]

I bashed Brian, and I happen to be happy at EK too. The two positions aren't mutually exclusive. He has "management wannabe" written all over him. I find it quite revolting to see him in action actually. Yes, to each his own, that's true. However, I hear he has become, or is about to become a TRI. Watch this space and mark my words, you'll see that guy in flight ops management in short order. If he becomes CPA or anything along those lines I'll be the first one to put in for a transition to the 'Dark Side' (the boeing fleet), 9 day trips not withstanding, as it would be by far the lesser of two evils. It is an extremely rare event for me to meet someone and develop a strong dislike for them in a matter of minutes. Mr. Murray holds this distinction. I don't bash him for being happy here. It's just that, for other reasons, I suspect that he has ulterior motives. Well hey, he did manage to get his likeness in the WSJ, so that must count for something:8
Yardman

[donpizmeov]

I sure am glad this article was not printed before any pay review...Doh!

I might have to talk to the EK pilot rep that sits on the pay review board to see what effect it has had....oops, sorry, I forgot this is EK.

We all know that this is a PR push by a desperate company. What choice did the fella have but to quote the company line. Seems this is his holy grail of a job, and you can not expect him to throw his only chance of feeding himself away.

Three failed road shows and now the use of a US rag trying to get people. I wonder what they will discover next?

Don.

[Tail Rota]

Hi Guys

We need captainjohndo to repost his deleted response. Fact or fiction who knows...it was still great. :E

Cant wait to meet this self proclaimed Guru in the sim.....I am sure he is a very very very very nice guy.

Well guys it looks like we are all on individual contracts. I am off to the office to get myself a raise:ok:

Hmmmmm.:* ......... I wonder if I should start playing golf first..... then asked them on the 9th for 10%....let them win the next few holes and by the 15th I should be good for 20%.....give the bosses an hand on the 18th to pull a great round by dropping a few shots......and at the 19th, while buying endless amounts of Dutch courage, hit them up for a good 30%. :ok:

Now thats the way to do business.

Does everybody in America want to go Hollywood? EK is starting to sound like Amercain Idol.......its all about the audition.:cool:

Well done cowboy....you are going to be very famous around these here parts.

Off to the office......vvvvvrrrrrrrmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!! ssssccccrrrrreeeeeeccccchhhhhhhhhhh. ...changed my mind...I am going to the beach.

TR:ok:

[CAYNINE]

Capt Brian has all the right in the world to be happy, and, 330 man's post stated some very good advice as to being what you want when you want......

But when I've to endure a DEC ex US Air dude that has done nothing better to do than whine about the training, the culture and that "in US Air we did it this way and we did it that way", and Fo's should only speak when required to, you've got to wonder what were the elite of American aviation thinking coming here!

Sure his name is "Brian"? or did he shave the goatie off.:eek:

[Vorsicht]

I wonder what BRIAN would have said, 5 or 6 years ago, if USair had decided they needed to recruit DEC's to keep the costs down. So they searched the world for a few qualified guys and managed to attract a couple of boeing and airbus qualified captains from the middle east who, conveniently for them, slotted in ahead of say 600 F/O's who were equally, or perhaps more, qualified to do the job of a captain, but hey, the company needed to save money.

Then after being in USair for a while, on captains salary of course, decided he should speak to his fellow aviators still in the middle east and tell them what a great job USair is. Man you just pitch up and step straight into the left hand seat. How good is that. You guys should come on over. Sure you're screwing the careers of several hundred F/O's but don't worry about that. Look after number one I say!

When BRIAN next goes flying and finds that the F/O has sh*t in his shoes while he was out having a p*ss. Maybe he should take time to reflect just how inflamatory his little cameo in the WSJ might be percieved by some displaced F/O.

[radnav]

It appears that some of the poor folks who have recently joined EK having turned their backs on the grand 'ol U.S.of A. are still suffering from shell shock and what must have been severe torture at their previous carriers.

Some form of the "Stockholm Syndrome" seems to have inflicted them, as it seems to do with most new joiners at EK...sad really.

Maybe talking to the media from a position of total ignorance or is it total arrogance is theraputic for some. :yuk:

[ratpoison]

I do believe brother Brian will be crawling into the CBC next time wearing an Abiya. ps I dont know how to spell "abiya" nor do I care. After all the years here I still can't spell araprick. !!! :p

[Toad Hall]

Oh Brian what a complete and utter idiot you are, you have managed to make yourself the most hated person in EK very well done.
You join a company stepping over F/O's as you go and then have the cheek to say how great life is, well i can safely say that your life will will probably not be as happy from now on as you will be held in utter contempt by your collegues. I think they have names for people like you stateside.

[typhoonpilot]

I realize this is like tilting at windmills with you guys, but I have to chime in yet again.

The EK roadshows are not aimed at DECs specifically. They are informational presentations to let the wider pilot population know more details about a career at Emirates. Some people who are DEC qualified do attend, but the majority are ones who would like to join as First Officers. Many airlines present at job fairs; including Cathay Pacific, Southwest, Air India, etc. They are airlines that are looking for pilots. As it is becoming an increasingly tight market the airlines that actively advertise for pilots will be able to attract better qualified applicants.

The use of the term Sxxx for anyone other than a person who crosses a union picket line is incorrect and, quite honestly, stupid. As has been said on this forum many times, those of you who do leave EK will most likely be doing so as DECs at another airline so get off your high horses in regards to the name calling ( P.S. this does not mean I endorse DECs, it's just that you can't blame the person who takes an opportunity offered. )



Typhoonpilot

[typhoonpilot]

Typhoon if we were ALLOWED a union then we would be able to stop the DEC's who are taking advantage of this fact. Would your own unions in the states have ever allowed what is happening here in EK? NO THEY WOULD NOT therefore i stand by the fact that the DEC's joining are XXXX.

Your are absolutely correct. Unions in the States would never allow an airline to take advantage of commercial opportunities as they arise. They would never allow an airline to buy 8 unanticipated aircraft at the spur of the moment. They would never allow an airline the ability to increase revenue if it didn't directly benefit them.

Here are some of the things my union back home did for me in my career:

1) They allowed me and 301 other pilots to be furloughed for 8 years while senior 767 Captains flew 10 extra hours per month to pad their retirement account.
2) They did not allow the company to take an award for a lucrative Trans-Pacific route. They were scared it would be outsourced just because it was going to be flown by another airline until they could obtain an additional aircraft or two to fly it themselves.
3) They continually negotiated contracts that only benefited the senior pilots in regards to reserve duty and work rules. This effectively kept 30% of the pilots on reserve for over a decade.

Shall we talk about what the Australian pilot's union did for their members in the late 80s ?

Yeah, Unions are great. :rolleyes: :yuk:

TP

[gatvol2006]

Have you been in combat before? Because U have the biggest mouth of any other fighter pilots I have flown with!!

[Quod Boy]

So Brian,when do you start your new job in the office?

Youve done everyone here a huge favour(favor) with your glossy article.NOT

Im sorry for what happened at USAir,but ONE simple question for TP and 330 man;-

Did or would USAir take a DEC from overseas out of seniority??

I think we all know the answer to that,dont we Brian?

Cheers,off to the pub for a few.QB:*

[captainjohndo]

TP,

I am very proud being from OZ, and part of the 89 group who thought of others before ourselves in order to improve things for all OZ pilots.

I did what I did because I thought it was right although it caused my family great hardship.

I and my fellow countrymen came out here when you and your mates did not know where the middle east was. For that matter lots of you do not realise that Iran and Iraq are different countries and not a spelling mistake...

If Brian wants to come out here and fly to feed his family, I have no problem with that. If he wants to apply for TRI because he deserves it on merit I have no problem with that.

I cannot however see, how can you or anyone else defend a guy who plays golf with Ed, socializes with Alan and expects to get ahead not on merit but on the boys club network.

Brian deserves all the flack he is getting because he not only joined as a DEC out of seniority, not only does he complain about not flying the A340, he does not have the charecter to wait his turn and apply like the other 100 or so pilots to get a promotion on merit.

He shows complete discontent towards all his EK colleagues, and is so focused in getting his management position that is willing to sell his everything, even if it means being loose with the truth in the WSJ article.

Go participate in a cause, fight a battle for others, and then come and critisize me and my colleagues for being vocal...
By the way I hear that CC is being put forward for CPA

[typhoonpilot]

Captainjohndoe:

Please don't take my union comment on the 89ers as a slight on those pilots, it was not. It was a comment on how unions can lead people down the wrong path to the membership's detriment. Much like what happened to the guys at Continental and Eastern.

My grandmother was a union organizer in New York during the sweatshop era of the 20s and 30s. She was one tough woman in her day. So I don't need a lesson on unions or self sacrifice. Unfortunately, in my country, the union's of today only seems to exist for the benefit of the national staff and the very senior members within each local unit. They will, and do, sacrifice the junior members to protect their own interests. It wasn't that way in my grandmother's day.

TP

[ruserious]

He shows complete discontent to-wards all his EK colleagues
Well there you go, he meets all the basic criteria to become a manager with us :D

[whossorrynow]

.


If you are a TRI or TRE and you actually mean this you need to get a course in professionalism ASAP as you do not belong in the simulator in any kind of an instructional or evaluational role.

Typhoonpilot

Have an idea that the passage typhoonpilot refers to here was posted by an F/O, his comment was maybe more to do with being on the receiving end of a sim session with 'trainer Brian'.

Not met 'Brian' but I feel I know him quite well already.

[Vorsicht]

Whilst i generally don't agree with much you say, I respect your right to say it, particularly because you generally put it in a fairly factual manner.

Your defence of BRIAN however has lost you any credibility that you may still have posessed.

His actions and attitude are indefensible. I'm sorry to see that you take his side. But at least we now know that you place country before colleagues.

[donpizmeov]

Isn't there a movie about the Life of Brian? I believe in it he was portrayed as being and I quote, "not the messiah, but just a very naughty boy!". Seems he has not changed much.
There was also some mention about his mother and Romans, but I think we should stay away from that one.

Don

[Tail Rota]

Thanks whossorrynow

you are correct I was referring to being on the recieving end of Trainer Brian.........err does that make me??????:ugh: ...mmmmmmm thinking out aloud there....:cool:

sorry Typhoon ........I guess I am ok to continue as cleared.....confirm it was the "BUST BRIAN CHOPS " arrival.....Rwy 30R

off to work...nighty night

TR:ok:

[Not from here]

Any chance we could put this guy up for a "DARWIN AWARD" or similar.
Maybe if you’re stepping on people’s toes, one should do it quietly, and not invite your mates to join in.
Now I better get back to my 5 Star room on the Concierge level that only befits a Vice President of the company.

[typhoonpilot]

Thanks whossorrynow

you are correct I was referring to being on the recieving end of Trainer Brian.........err does that make me??????:ugh: ...mmmmmmm thinking out aloud there....:cool:

sorry Typhoon ........I guess I am ok to continue as cleared.....confirm it was the "BUST BRIAN CHOPS " arrival.....Rwy 30R

off to work...nighty night

TR:ok:

I apologize for the incorrect assumption.

You may be pleasantly surprised if you ever do find yourself in the situation though.

TP

[dunerider]

I think Typhoon is so defensive of Brian not only as he is a fellow citizen because he has actually stolen your thunder.Wasn't typhoon the number one recruiter for EK.Now theirs a new kid on the block.Dont worry TP when Brian becomes a CP you can always become his deputy and you can both go on a roadshow together and do a double act.That should make a nice artcle for the WSJ.:cool:

[Ahad Adump]

Captainjohn.

You posted some very disturbing news. Is this intel hot?
"By the way I hear that CC is being put forward for CPA"

"He shows complete discontent towards all his EK colleagues"
Now if anyone fits this; cc is your man. Brothers the end is nigh.

[Muttley Crew]

He jumped the que(ue) and now makes waves; NICE.Unlike guys who join with the plan of queue-jumping via the accelerated command program, who are morally out-raged at being out-queue-jumped by the DECs.....

[Muttley Crew]

I was referring to being on the recieving end of Trainer Brian.........err does that make me??????
You may be pleasantly surprised if you ever do find yourself in the situation though.
Guys, please, what anyone does in the privacy of his own home has no place here...

[kingoftheslipstream]

Mrs Murray's little boy Brian has every right to his little suck up for management circus. He is after all American. He comes from a culture of shameless self promotion at the expense of the truth. Why not exploit it? Everyone else does, so that should make it right...
His errors of fact are a bit galling... especially the bull**** about the 4 and 5 star hotels... obviously he isn't MFF, nor has he spent a night in the cockroach haven of the Airport Garden Hotel in Columbo, or the Berjaya Beau Vallon Beach resort in the Seychelles... but then again, since when has management (or wannabees) ever been correctly informed by the facts? It's all about surface gloss, not the underlying truth.
I do believe Mrs Murray's little boy Brian is well deserving of the ire and contempt of his colleagues. He's put himself in the spotlight for this at the expense of factual accuracy and sought the approbrium of the worst types (readers of newspapers) rather than his hard working colleagues. If he wants to be a manager at this carrier, he is going to reap what he has sown. I am reminded of an Air Force leadership maxim that in order to be a good leader, you must have good followers... I would say that he has done himself a great disservice in this matter. It serves him right.
Carl Sandburg (1878-1967) American Poet
A liar lies to the nations
A liar lies to the people
A liar takes the blood of the people
And drinks this blood with a laugh and a lie
"The Liars" (1919)

[Mack Tuck]

Remember the big 'suck-up' to LL on the yahoo group a while back? Same guy. Saw him (recognisable but only just, as the Wall St photo is particularly flattering to him) at CBC walking around like a human!:yuk:

[Mack Tuck]

The following is what I was referring to.
_____________________
Gents,
Sent this today after speaking with (LL). He would like to stay if at all possible. I'm sure our letters would help.
Cheers,
Brian.
___________________________
Dear (AS),
I am writing to express my concern over the possible retirement of Mr. (LL) this summer. As a relatively new Captain at Emirates and new resident in the gulf region, I cannot express enough how helpful and comforting it has been to have (him) as my fleet manager. He has a unique skill which allows him to meet the needs of the corporation, while at the same time assisting the pilots he oversees.
With Emirates entering another phase of rapid growth and expansion, his knowledge and expertise will be even more important in the years ahead. For us on the Airbus, (he) is the "Go-to-guy". He is always willing to help, and if unable, he knows who can.
Please, if at all possible, I would urge (him) be allowed to remain on until 65 years of age and help see us through the busy years ahead.
Sincerely,
Brian Murray
Captain, Airbus
________________
.Nuff said?:sad:

[ernestkgann]

What I think is best is the seamless introduction into the workforce of the new lads from North America. At least it takes the heat off the other unpopular members of EKs happy melting pot of cultures.:)

[CAYNINE]

sorry ernie.... have lost the point to your post, can you clearly state what you mean
:confused:

[SecurID]

It's all about surface gloss, not the underlying truth.

Isn't that the whole of Dubai? Isn't Emirates just a microcosm of the city it inhabits?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1708287,00.html

[ernestkgann]

I'm sorry, just being sarcastic mr dog.

[UP and Down Operator]

Come on guys, try and wake up a bit here.

Some guy made an article in a journal, and as said by many; "different people have different views". - that is still a human right, but please try and be realistic in your life-visions here.

So many people here are moarning about EK and complaining about not being treated like kings and queens. Really, why did you guys become pilots ??:yuk:

There are so many pilots struggling in small regional airlines or the GA, having a hard time getting butter on the bread, but they continue to fly because they love the nature of the job. I admit, it would be nice with more money, but listening to you guys complaining over "crap conditions" and "deterioating(?) terms" is too far out.

Try and join a small airline for some years, see how that is, and stop crying.
The current conditions at EK is a dream for many of us, so those of you who don't like being there, **** off and give rooms to those who became pilots to fly aircrafts.

And yes i have a job that i like (pilot), and no I have not been rejected anywhere, and no I am not bitter on anyone.

I am just sick of spoiled people that can't get enought luxury in a world with hardcore competition from all sides towards each airline.

Wake up guys and dry your wet eyes ;)

[Zomp]

UP and Down Operator,
if you can't take it anymore, then just don't read it, that should help you.

[Quod Boy]

Up and Down boy,until you have experience of a big airline and know whats happening here to what was once a good airline stick to the "wanabees" forum and dont comment on stuff you NOTHING about.

Many,many pilots came from smaller airlines,but does that mean we have to watch blatant misrepresentation and continual eroding of Ts and Cs.Neither does it mean we dont enjoy the job.I do,its just not the job it was and can easily be restored.

When you sit here,then you will know,so until then think before you post utter nonsense now go and do your walk round.:cool:

QB

PS Email Brian he likes people like you.

[Tail Rota]

Well Mack ....I couldnt resist.....here is my version.......for when Trainer Brian recommends me for upgrade:E


Dear (AS),
I am writing to express my concern over the possible resignation of F/O Tail Rota:ok: this summer. As a relatively new well known, Management Wannabie at Emirates and new resident in the gulf region, I cannot express enough how helpful and comforting it has been to have Tail Rota:ok: as my first officer. He has a unique skill which allows him to meet the needs of the bent at the knee, brown noser, while at the same time not assisting me with my needs.
With Emirates entering another phase of rapid growth and expansion, his knowledge and expertise will be even more important in the years ahead. For us on the Airbus, Tail Rota:ok: , is the "Great guy". He is always willing to help, and if able, he will leave me in the can every time.
Please, if at all possible, I would urge F/O Tail Rota :ok: be allowed to take my position as Captain and upgrade immeadiately. I will remain in the office and I will push a pen, never to come out, until 65 years of age and help see us through the busy years ahead.
I promise!!!!!
Sincerely,
Brian Murray:8
Captain, Airbus
TRE/TRI/DME/VOR/NDB/BSc/LLB/MBE/CNN/ABC/FOX News


TR:ok:

PS these names and events are purely fictional any person or persons who may feel affected by this post can direct all correspondence to Super Captain at www.Iamthegreatespilotthateverlived.com (http://www.Iamthegreatespilotthateverlived.com)

[PITA]

Boy's Boy's Boy's

It amazes me the you have so much time to write these scathing remarks about fellow pilots when you barely have time to recover from all that flying that you claim you do.

You have made your pionts, now how about going onto something a little more important than slagging each other.

(Ready for you "Slagging" me now)

[Saltaire]

Can o' worms......pandora's box....

This is very entertaining. Thank you Uncle B

[specialrider987]

UPandDownOperator

Hey pudknocker. ... Go pound salt up your arse, and stay out of this fray if you aren't EK Flt Deck.

[Mack Tuck]

For those of you who arent EK and are wondering why we are upset it is because it WAS a great job only 2-3 years ago. Since then Ts and Cs have been continually ratcheted downwards. We have seen DECs introduced (who although not unprecedented in EK history) have interfered with the career progression of very capable and experienced FOs. Many of the said DECs are marginal at best and many have less RELEVANT experience than our FOs. For the guys who want to come to EK the threads here are a warning to you. Dont expect to be treated as you will be told you will be. If you are told 3-4 years to Command take it with a grain of salt.
Dont expect to be treated like a VP as Brian states in his missive; even as a Captain that is not the case. I can only imagine that US Airways was a **** employer and a **** job if he is so happy here. I bet (which is illegal in the UAE) if he was recalled he would be off like a whore's drawers.

[SecurID]

Brian Murray would not have even considered Emirates if everything was ok at US Airways. I doubt that he even knew where Dubai was. Had he stayed at US Airways then I am certain that he would never have supported the recruitment of DECs into the airline. Brian, if I am wrong, then please send me a private message.

Everyone seems to have forgotten the private email sent by a certain South African DEC / Management pilot a few years back that told his mates in SQ that they should apply, DECs are on the way lads! Come over, you may even get a management job like me!! When the EK senior management found out, he offered his resignation, which was not accepted. But he did lose his role as head of training.

Today the same basic message is being written again, but this time supported by the company on the front page of the Wll Street Journal!! How times have changed.

[thrustucantrust]

Hello Guys and donpiz,
I am not ek but have a few interest in the gulf and have found this thread fascinating.Did I read somewhere that he was an f/o for all but 4 of his years at USAIR, and then on 737. (probably not even full glass, and then only efis map) It would be funny of it wasnt so outrageous. I'm not against DEC as a policy ( exhausting qualified fos at ek notwithstanding) but you would think a little bit of relevant command experience would be appropiate.
There are many like this chap, (including a brit aquaintance doing the same sort of thing at RYR). They make scousers look shy, and most people nauseous.About as sincere as a Kmart checkout girl Its just the yank self affirmation, centre of the universe must express everything, cultural way. Maybe they should put him in charge of radio phraseology, then we can hear "emirates 95 checkin in at 35oh smooth ride" Keep the vitriol coming its making my day. Guy sounds like a C0CK

[ratpoison]

Since then Ts and Cs have been continually ratcheted downwards
Yes, Mack and since "greed is good" they have raised the bar for the profit next year by over $200m. With all new equipment and cost of more employees and the logistics required, one cannot even imagine the amount of raping and pillaging that is going to occur for the next 12 months to achieve this.. Hold onto your hats lads, there's even more interesting times ahead.

[millerscourt]

SecurID CR was right about DEC's are on the way lads! He was just a few years ahead of his time:{

[uplock]

Hey guys do a quick google search on Brian Murry and see what you come up with....must be more than a couple of news paper articles....

Seems News Paper Articles are right up his alley

you can check the link here (http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/VA-news/VA-Pilot/issues/1995/vp950207/02070030.htm)

The point has already been made but the WSJ article has EK damage control written all over it and had must have gone through Corporate Communications before given the stamp of approval.

Shame the WSJ did not interview their fellow Country Man on the EK B-777 fleet who was well and truly screwed over and we all found out just how well the no fault reporting clause works here in EK.

The authors give the opinion that ALL Americans are in a continual state of ecstasy working with EK and they made the correct choice.

All ways 2 or 3 sides to a story, the WSJ article did not bother digging deeper and showing the dark side of EK just to give a more balanced opinion, but hey why let some facts get in the way of a good story.

There's allways at least one American DEC here in EK who knows that the WSJ is a P.R. exercise

(edited to correct few spelling errors)

[Vorsicht]

Well spotted. Seems like BRIAN is a serial spokesperson for all sorts of issues.

I also found an article from two days ago in USAtoday. So it looks like there is no doubt it was a paid gig by EK to try and counter the facts that get out there via Pprune and the like

Well done prooners for exposing BRIAN as an attention seeking management wannabee.

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

Gents,

Please head over to the USA today weblog and post a comment. They moderate them, so be nice :E

http://blogs.usatoday.com/sky/2006/05/jobs_are_still_.html#comments

SyB :zzz:

[radnav]

I always find it somewhat amusing when folks start bleating that Emirates T&Cs and that Management attitudes have only been deteriorating and eroding for the last 2-3 years, and coincidently it was only the 2-3 years since they joined.

At the time they joined it was a fantastic job...best one on the face of the earth..... only since then:{

Fact and reality is that Emirates has, as an employer, deliberately allowed flight crew working conditions to decline for more than 10 years now.

People have been warned of this long term trend many, many times now so if you have no choice but to join Emirates, fine , but don't keep making out that worsening conditions at EK are some new phenomenon that only manifests itself 2-3 years after you signed on for the "perfect job".

[Gillegan]

Fact and reality is that Emirates has, as an employer, deliberately allowed flight crew working conditions to decline for more than 10 years now.
People have been warned of this long term trend many, many times now so if you have no choice but to join Emirates, fine , but don't keep making out that worsening conditions at EK are some new phenomenon that only manifests itself 2-3 years after you signed on for the "perfect job".
Radnav,
While I agree that the slide began much more than 3 years ago, it has certainly accelerated in the last few years. Go back 3-4 years and look at the changes in management that occurred then - both at the top and in Flight Ops. While never great, that was when things got kind of aggressive (IMHO).

[radnav]

Sure I agree its an exponential decline that we are in...somewhat of a death spiral but its not new here, and for many at EK with 10 or more years of service the rot set in a long time ago...of course the million dollar question is will it ever end?....just ask those who have been here for a while......not newbies who speak from a privileged and opportunistic position and with an oh so obvious agenda.

You know I must be a sad old git really...every day I wake up and ask myself just what and why the hell am I still here.....:confused: :{ ;)

[whossorrynow]

Apparently there was a time when things got better rather than worse.

The introduction in the mid 90s of roster bidding, threshold for overtime payment, annual bonus and additional staff tickets improved a salary package that was already above industry average (mainly because of the tax free factor).

This package was more or less left alone until around a year after CKs arrival (02-03?). Maybe the odd nibble but nothing significant.

CKs first action was to wade through the Trainers Ts & Cs leading to large scale resignations from the training department.

Following this debacle he was reliably reported to have said that he was going to make the life of the Line pilots so miserable that they would all want to join Training.

And he sure had a good stab at that, starting 3 or 4 years ago and perpetuated by his successor.

Work still in progress bringing us up to today.

[radnav]

Maybe the odd nibble but nothing significant

Was it 1995, at least there-abouts can't really be bothered looking it up, HR arbitrarily changed and retrospectively applied a change to the ERP rules.....that little change has cost many of us circa DH 3000 per month over many months and years ever since.....would you call that nothing significant.

Just one example of many, as has been said many times now; decline is nothing new in Emirates.

[whossorrynow]

Didn't know about the ERP changes.

Perhaps it's fair to say that at least there were some positives amongst the negatives back in the mid 90s. Not the case now.

Excuse the thread creep brian, although you're probably looking forward to the end of your 15 minutes of fame.

[UP and Down Operator]

Mack Tuck.
Thanks for the brief to us non-EK. It is much easier to understand the anger when it is spelled out with words by an adult and not with puke from a childish.

Anyway gents, I have a question.
I am not flying for EK myself, but believe me, this does not mean that there are not issues in my company as well.

Do you guys think that EK is much different from the rest of todays airlines in the world (if we rule out BA and Virgin)?? - and why??
Outside the sandpit I can tell you that we have very similar problems in the UK companys!!

And next question, when you guys leave EK to something "better" (read different music but same taste), will you then start in the back of the queue as F/O's as right is, or will you try to get in as DEC??

Quod Boy: I feel very sorry for you. If you think you are special because you work in a big airline, then it just shows how stupid and unintelligent you are. Big planes does not make you more important than those flying small planes. We all have a mortgage to pay and we all have responsibilities when flying.
You are really a looser if you are serious about your comment!!

To the rest of you gents and ladies: I really do understand the frustration when conditions are going the wrong way, and i think as you that it is wrong. BUT, please show me a place where conditions are going towards the old times conditions.
It is history, sorry to say :{

[GoForIt]

Gents,
Please head over to the USA today weblog and post a comment. They moderate them, so be nice :E
http://blogs.usatoday.com/sky/2006/05/jobs_are_still_.html#comments
SyB :zzz:
take a look at that USA today article again and you'll see that this commentator was only quoting the WSJ article. I've done the google search, and all I can find are copies of the same article in other papers, giving credit to the same authors. Evidently WSJ just sells the rights to reprint it to others.

[whossorrynow]

You just don't get it do you, Tartan guy.

The general consensus and complaint is that this gentleman went into print in a major publication with a largely fictitious slant on life in Emirates.

So a number of people have gone into print on this forum pointing out his errors.

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

[Toad Hall]

Tartan a very well written defence of Brian. Don't bring in personal lives of pilots into a debate about EK i can assure you there are many pilots in EK with family problems this is not the topic or forum to air them.
Brian has gone out of his way to recruit DEC's into Emirates knowing full well this will effect many of the first officers he flies with every day ( and i would even guess that some of them have had major family trauma).
He may be very happy in EK he probably joined on more money than a 5 year captain it does not mean that he should use his privilaged position to undermine his collegues. That is the reason he has got such a response on PPRUNE the only place where EK pilots can air their grievences.
Lets keep the sob stories off aviation forums.

[captainjohndo]

Tartan guy, what does your post have to do with the price of beans in Germany?

The fact is that happy or not, Brian like all of us have many faces: The one we show, the one people see, the one we want people to see, the one we realy have, and the one we think we have.

Just because you saw one face of his which you liked, does not mean that there are not others at the same time that either you or us do not like

Brian has not made any friends out here after this publicity stunt as he has sh...ed on every ones shoes....

There are many guys in EK who have similar family stories to Brian, and who did not and do not work the PR and management scene to get ahead.

Brian's story is great up to the moment he started cutting corners.

Best of luck to him, I would like to be a fly on his flight deck to see the great atmosphere between him and the FOs.... after his popularity stunt...

[radnav]

Brian's personal family life is irrelevent to any discussion here and is a very poor and desperate attempt to gain some kind of empathy for him.

To put himself up as some kind of expert and a figurehead for The Emirates Career Pilot is arrogant and offensive and shows very poor judgement on his behalf.

Just what credibility does a very newbie Direct Entry Captain, who slid into an opportunistic position at Emirates think he has on the world stage to be giving out career advice.

Amongst other reasons this may have seemed to him a great way to publicly stick it right back up his hated US Airways, on their home turf, and seek some kind of personal gratification but unfortunately it also mocks and belittles his supposed new colleagues.

[max AB]

Comparing EK to a failing airline in the US is like comparing a shwarma to a sh:mad: t sandwich....a bit of a stretch oh windy one. As for the article, when ever I've read something in the press about an issue I know about, it is always wrong. So If Capt Happy says its crap here, what will they print? Either way, if you end up in the paper, for any reason, you are fair game for some sledging. Lighten up Tartan Guy.

[Tail Rota]

Tarten Guy

You have completely lost touch with reality. I cannot see the point of your post at all. It looks to me as though you have nothing left to defend him with.

Brian has accepted the role of being the face of the American dream here at EK. With that, he endorses every word that was published, which was obviously from the PR dept. Never ever trust management!

The market is tough and its getting harder and harder to recruit the guys EK want. Emirates has to face the harsh reality that pilots want to be paid for what they do. The cost to company to recruit the right guy has a premium on it.

We as Pilot group are being screwed Tarten Guy!!! You might like it but most of us dont.

It looks to me like anything is better than what you all had at US Air and I congratulate you for enjoying Dubai and being happy....dont change.

But if you think that the majority of EK pilots are going to continue to put up with the outdated draconian management style that prevails here you will be flying single pilot in no time.

It appears ED seems to be making a few changes around here. We all know how useful TCAS has been. Lets hope for something.

In the meantime if you are a mate of this guy Brian ask him "What the hell was he thinking"


TR:ok:

[Muttley Crew]

Mr. Baedke...expects to begin training next month to become a captain, a process he says could take 2½ years.The upgrade process must be tough there. Either that or their pilots are a bunch of lemons….Staying in 4 and 5 star hotels, what's BNE then? 3 bloody star that's whatWhat are you talking about, Puff? The Sofitel hotels are usually alright, is the Brisbane one a dump??? I'm sure it’s not Brian Muzza’s 5-star dream-world but there are other hotels in the network that are so much more whinge-worthy.If you hate it here that much, than show some balls and quitShowing off your gonads wouldn’t go down that well around here, 330Man. Local culture and all that… They don’t even let you take your clothes off in the changing rooms down at the aviation club, when you are getting changed, lest you give a local the horn.


So anyway has anyone bothered to write to the WSJ editor to dispute some of the garbage in this article? If so, please post…

But then I suppose if EK have "bought" some good press coverage using Muzza's shameless trained monkey routine, then the WSJ are hardly likely to print anything that might refute it.

[Outta Heresoon]

I had a dog once, but he died. I still think EK management should get their heads out of their ar..e and regain touch with the reality they are in, and stop resorting to desperate propaganda campains to wow essentially dis-interested party's to the middle east.

[TineeTim]

Tartan Guy,
Just a couple of questions in order to clear things up:
1. When your mate Brian "worked at USAirways for 23 years and flew Captain for 20 and over 4 as a check-airman", did he spend that time behind the protection of a seniority system?
2. When Brian was promoted, demoted or furloughed, did all those things happen in strict accordance with a seniority list?
I'm going to have a guess that the answer to the previous questions is yes.
Now, did Brian then completely disregard the seniority list at EK in order to jump the que straight to Captain?
Once again I'm going to say the answer is probably yes.
That my friend is the dictionary definition of a hypocrite. To then publicise his hypocrisy, and indeed attempt to glorify it, shows a startling disregard for his fellow pilots. No F/O who flies with this guy should say anything other than what is operationally required (or perhaps F**k You)! He should be treated with the same contempt he has shown his 'colleagues'.
BTW I'm an F/O for a different airline. This has no effect on me at all. I'm just shocked at the Chutzpa (are Hebrew terms allowed in this forum) and had to comment.

[whossorrynow]

No thanks.

[Vorsicht]

That just about says it all. The yanks have been here two years and now trying to start their own association.

I guess you'll be trying to get a Burger King at CBC next.

On another note. Thanks for taking the heat off all the Aussies, Jarpies and Brits. I think you and BRIAN are going to head the list of people we love to hate for quite some time.

[Muttley Crew]

Will they be offering their bacon-double-cheese-burger...?

[bushbolox]

Its all part of the war on terror, if you cant beat em join em.:}

[Scooter Rassmussin]

I think they are all hand picked by G.Bush to work in the middle east as spys and to cruise the world in search of intelligence.............

[thrustucantrust]

scoot. U may be closer the truth than u think. Many I/O's are in such positions, Introductions to the best golf clubs/partners etc thru an old air force buddy at the embassy.Worked (s) in africa. Perfect propierty cover.Why else would a bunch of yanks want to move to the middleeat. Bit like a bunch of orthodox jews moving to saudi.

[specialrider987]

Tartan Guy

When do you and Mrs Murray's little boy Brian go on the Oprah Winfrey show to bleat about your sufferings to a wider audience?

Your post is pathetic.

Suffering and personal sorrow do not purify, or make one's soul special. Anyone who has ever suffered already knows that.

A wise person would have the integrity and humility to not say one single word about those matters to anyone save one's closest friends or family.

To attempt to exploit tragic circumstances using Mr Murray's personal history and the story of his child is beyond comprehension. Have a little decency and speak to the facts. Do not pimp for sympathy, you emotionally retarded thug.

You seem to want to defend Mrs Murray's little boy Brian... you are tilting at windmills.

Mrs Murray's little boy Brian must face the consequences of his decision to go public with falsehood at the expense of the limited amount of professional currency we have left in this declining profession of ours. All we have left to do battle with is our integrity, murderous stunning truthfulness, and determination. Mr Murray has undermined the first two, but not the latter.

[ruserious]

yep, that just about covers it :ok:

[kingoftheslipstream]

specialrider987

well said buddy!

[montencee]

Well, I've made a promise to myself that this will be the last time I will visit or post on this site. I will leave all the "Glass is half-full" guys to drown in their misery and sorrows.



Still waiting.

[pissedoffpilotek]

was tartan guy one of the guys in the video clip posted earlier...perhaps that is why the glass is half full!!!
lets hope he can take a joke

strange thing is it has been deleted again....
anyone know why a comical video clip would be deleted?

[Vorsicht]

You and your ilk (Brian) have completely missed the point that everyone here is trying to tell you.

Most of the comments here come from people who have been here many years longer than you, so have the credibility of experience at EK.

The point is that the company continues to erode our conditions and we cant do anything about it.

Most of us were happy when we came too. The reason that we are not now is that we are working harder now for less money than when we arrived and our only choice is to laccept it or leave. Nobody particularly likes either of those options, although more and more are choosing the latter.

This will not stop. You are also going to have T+C's reduced with no consultation and no means of redress.

Those of us who have done some time here have found that this forum is about the only useful means of dealing with our management. We can't directly influence their policies, but we can make sure that the real message is getting out there. Sure, much of what Brian says may be technically true, but the fact is that two years ago it was better, and two years before that it was better again. 15 years ago it was comparable to Cathay A scale.

You two are just helping the management continue with their policies. You will get no thanks for it. You too will get screwed at the next round of cuts.

[captainjohndo]

Tartan guy,

Nobody has a problem with you or Brian being happy. That is great. People are not happy with the way Brian is trying to get ahead, and with the way that you are defending him.

I like the way you try to change the real point of the posts in the same way the your president tried to mislead the people: "you are either with us or against us". What happened to the initial argument did they have WMD and all the lies that followed since?

Same as the Original Brian question? What the f...k was he thinking when he did an interview which was not authorised by EK to get himself in a VP position? Did he think that people would not see through him? Did he realy believe that it would not come out that he plays golf and socializes with our esteemed management to get a nice comfortable chair?

Brian is smart enough to realize that he cannot stick it till he is 60 and fly the back side of the clock 100 hours a month. He wants a comfortable chair in an office to enjoy his golf game.

That in itself is not bad, but if he wants to do it without anyone having anything to say, then he needs to fall in line and follow procedures and apply through the channels like every one else.

The sad thing is that you and your society has such values that find it ok to do such things, and you think that it is fine to make a mockery of everyone else who has been here before you.

As for big picture training and amazing CRM and safety culture lets not talk about your USair....

This is the issue, and not the happy not happy you try to pull.

Nobbody cares that you like staying on the concierge floor, and nobody cares that you enjoy being driven around. You should consider though that the guy who is driving you around is made to work 18 hours, and besides being unhumane it is also dangerous for your own safety...

What people care about, and what all of you coming from the States seem not to get is the fact that little Brian is willing to sell his soul to get ahead and you find it ok.

Hope this sinks is in your shallow attention span, and that you do not need a repeat again.

Final Closing point. Brian did something which was not upfront and honest to better himself in management's eyes to get a shot for VP position. You try to defend him by giving us a sob story and when that does not work you come back and tell us that you and he are happy and we are not what is wrong with you being happy?
Point, he should not have done what he did if he was a person with integrity, hard working, rule following, respectful of his peers, and greatfull for getting a job after unemployment.... I guess the USair experience did not humble him.

[GoForIt]

Nobody has a problem with you or Brian being happy. That is great. People are not happy with the way Brian is trying to get ahead, and with the way that you are defending him.

Why do you guys automatically assume that Brian is "trying to get ahead" by some devious means? Why is it impossible for you to believe that this guy just happened to be interviewed by a reporter, and gave his honest opinion of the job based on his experience with current and previous employers? Why do you think he has done anything "underhanded" in this whole matter? Why do you automatically impugn his motives? The people who know him seem to highly respect the man.

I already proved the point that the multiple articles in US newspapers were all reproductions of the WSJ article. It is common for one news agency to sell reprint rights on stories to others.

Goforit

[montencee]

No doubt in my mind that this is a media exercise by EK PR possibly initiated by Captain Murray (at the golf club) in order to promote EK in the States and by default Captain Murray in Emirates.

Another thread confirms that EK recruitment are active in the US as we write. Perfect timing.

A certain amount of shooting in the foot on Captain Murrays part though.

Shame.

[Zomp]

Murray is just another greedy guy who took the bait of the so called management, lets see where he will end up.

[Alphaprot]

What Brian has done is the equivalent of a "developing country" pilot coming from a failing airline, arriving in the US, jumping past ALL your First Officers and get paid more than a Captain who has been in the company 7 years.
Of course he is pharking happy, who wouldn't be, I just wish he would have the good grace not to shove our faces in it.
Question is, what would you think of said "developing country" pilot?

[SecurID]

Most of us were happy when we came too. The reason that we are not now is that we are working harder now for less money than when we arrived and our only choice is to accept it or leave. Nobody particularly likes either of those options, although more and more are choosing the latter.

The real pity is that the guys in the office actually tell you 'If you don't like it, leave.' How many managers at US Airways said that?

[Can't think of a name]

I wonder if Brian would go join the new Dragon 744 Cargo as a DEC with an IFALPA ban on the job? I wonder if those slating him on this thread would go take the Dragon 744 DEC position if it was offered to them?

Unfortunately we can't get an IFALPA ban on EK DEC jobs. Wouldn't it be interesting if we could? And would it make the slightest bit of difference?

mmmmm.....just a thought......

CTOAN

[Tail Rota]

Hey Tarten

must have seen you at CBC an hour ago....havent you had enough
I see.:{

just checked out the latest on this thread and you have to admit you are not able to save this baby..........:ugh: You are on fire...you have lost three of the four engines and there is only one option for you and your mate trainer Brian:E

bail out now while you can still save yourselves or go down and take your chances with a ditching.......either way you are f:mad: ed

good luck


TR:ok:

[whossorrynow]

Occurrs to me that Tartan guy might have a hidden agenda.

He seems very keen to keep this thread at the top of the page and he achieves it by defending the indefensible in the face of a fair amount of (not all) objective criticism about said gentleman.

By flying in the face of popular opinion he attracts increasingly adverse comment about his supposed friend and mentor.

I think he has a grudge against brian and is getting some satisfaction from seeing him pilloried on this forum.

Can't think of any other reason for someone to put themselves up for so many shooting downs. Or is it just sheer stupidity?

[Muttley Crew]

A fetish for beatings :ouch: or just sheer stupidity :8 ?

Not easy to tell, really...

[ratpoison]

Actually, fetish beatings are not so bad once you get into them. !!!:8

[lastlaugh]

Cheers Tartan Guy,

I am going to try and respond to several of your posts.

I am starting to question some of what you are saying. You were one of BM’s last students at Usair, yet you are waiting for your upgrade at EK. Is that correct? When did you join and on what fleet because your length of time here has a HUGE impact on your opinion. Regardless of you time here you can not dispute this fact: EMIRATES DISCRIMINATES AGAINST FIRST OFFICERS! If you do not believe me just try and get your children in J class as a F/O. There is another thread on this very subject. Brian never said pilots are treated like VP’s, he said “captains are treated like VP’s”. Brian is just as discriminatory as management, even worse because he jumped over hundreds of First Officer who are being discriminated against to get his great job at their expense. And then he rubbed it into their faces by coming out and saying it in the article. I am sure that as a former Usair pilot you will agree that you fellows would never have allowed direct entry captains in the door.

Everything he says in the article is NOT true. At most of the hotels only the captain stays on the concierge floor, gets free use of the lounge, gets free internet access, and gets more allowance on EVERY overnight. The rest of the crew is discriminated against!

I seem to remember some time back a tartan guy was asking about keeping a boat in Dubai. Was that you? That was about the same time that BM came here. I have flown with BM a couple of times since he arrived at EK. Nice enough chap though full of his own self worth if you understand my meaning. I remember he had a boat as well. Do you know the make and length? I do! If I were you I would never post on this thread again because you have lost all credibility and you will be shocked at the speed of the truth if you are not careful. You seem to know an amazing lot about BM. I wonder how that is so. My best mate from flight school is here. We flew with the last company together as well. I do not know half about him as you do about BM. I am sure that he is helping get the facts correct. Unfortunately, it is all based on a HUGE lie.

You have been warned

lastlaugh

whossorrynow,

There is one more obvious reason that you have not thought of because it is so outlandish! Keep trying and you will come up with it!

[4HolerPoler]

lastlaugh - you're really living up to your name!

Gentlemen, as a mod I'm obliged to protect the sanctity of individuals identities and I couldn't just post one of your registered emails publicly on this site. But lastlaugh's post got me thinking & I had a gander at who Tartan guy really is & "Oh my goodness, we have a celebrity amongst us!"

Remember the warning at the bottom of the page - As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous :E , to elicit certain reactions.

I'm sitting here giggling at the incredulousness of it. What an absolute beauty!

4HP

[whossorrynow]

lastlaugh

Well sure, they might be the same person.

He wouldn't be the first DEC to pose as an F/O ( yes, I mean you jack) and post about how lovely the DECs really are.

And looking at his most recent post he's finally got the mood of the forum.

Long time coming. But might not last long.




Just seen 4hps post and I must be wrong 'cos BM and Tg being the same person isn't that funny.

[Yossarian]

You have got to be kidding!! What a jackass!!

[Fugazi]

Surely Tartan guy & BM are not one & the same? If so Tartan guy's post on the 8th May at 16.28 is quite sickening. Not a regular follower of PPrune, but I must admit that this thread is rivetting! What was BM thinking?!!!!! Actually feel rather sorry for the old git! :sad: Right must get off the computer & do something constructive!! :)

[mooguy]

What do you mean when you state "the system is close to breaking" I really do not understand?

I worked in emirates back in 1995 as a flight attendant, and believe me, nothing, nothing is new. none of the complaints, none of the moaning it all went on then!! I look from time to time at this website and am amazed at how nothing has changed!

Funny thing is the "system" never collapses....is it funded by the sheikhs money indefinitley? I dontl know!!!

Morale at EK was always low......i guess we understood all along that we were just commodities, easily replaced, even thouth we used to always arugue amonst ourselves in the galley "but surely the cost of recruitment and training of each new crew memeber will ruin them" but no, they understood that fresh meat was always legal tender. Both cabin crew members and flight deck when new and ethusiasitic were very popular, but somewhow the rot would ususally set in. Its hard to explain, and I do understant this MUrray guys attiude given what he's been through, but yes, in dxb, they can make you feel like a king one minute, and bring you down so fast its not funny the next, i've seen it done to many a crew member both cabin crew and flight deck.

To the Brian Murrays of this world, enjoy it while you can. I do agree 10 years ago this wouldnt have happened, 10 years ago, we didnt have any american pilots or cabin crew actually, a few canadian, the rest from eveywhere else!

I must say i always get a kick when I go to this site from time to time, cos it reminds me of how little ever changed with EK!

[whossorrynow]

The system is close to breaking because fairly soon they might not have enough guys & gals to man the aeroplanes.

This is a product of people leaving faster than they can be replaced. This has not happened before, not even in 1995.

[Zomp]

Murray aka Tartan aka TCM look yourself in the mirror, how can you go to work after all this BS? Nobody takes you serious anymore, actually now I feel a bit sorry for you, hope you learned that backstabbing doesn't pay off.

[Fugazi]

Sorry...me again!!! Have a look at Tartan guy's post on the 26th March 2006 @ 19.20, on a different thread. Tartan guy mentions the concierge floor, 4 & 5 star hotels, and being driven home!!! This post was a MONTH before BM's article appeared in the WSJ!! Coincidence or .......? Your call! If they are the same guy his actions are unforgivable. Please prove me wrong! :confused:

[Muttley Crew]

"Oh my goodness, we have a celebrity amongst us!"
Come on 4HolerPoler, I'll bite - spill the beenz.... pleez?

Okay just PM me then...

Is it Brad Pitt? How are the rest of us gonna compete if Brad Pitt is here???

[whossorrynow]

Had crossed my mind before that brian and tartan might be one and the same (yeah, yeah, I know).

But had discarded the idea for several reasons including:

The obviousness of it.

Anybody with any sense would have left the thread alone to die, and without tartans help it would have died long ago.

The personal details revealed. Very bad form, outside the US anyway.

But the evidence suggests that BM is Tg.

Would that he isn't.

[bigilla]

Fugazi is right. Tartan guy is BM. never thought someone could stoop so low by posting as someone else and writing about his own family problems.

[Alphaprot]

Noo I think Tartan Guy's real name is Dick

[whossorrynow]

73 viewing and no posts since before half past eight.

Here goes. If brian is Tartan guy then the rather close knit American community led by typhoonpilot will know.

Perhaps the lack of contributions from typhoon and his familia since the very early days of this thread support the theory that they are the same person. They could hardly approve what he was allegedly doing but would not want to dob on their own.

I really hope that brian is not Tg, a sad reflection on our profession if he is.

But if he is, maybe an apology on the crew portal is in order, to include an undertaking to not apply for any training or management positions. Oh and to never talk to the press ever again.

Time to retire from this thread, let it die.

[Zomp]

To apologize he would have first to understand what he did, but the FO's who flew with him say that he is in love with himself. I am sure he thinks hundreds of EK pilots are wrong and unfair.

I wonder what WSJ would say if they hear the truth?

[uplock]

Hey Last laugh an 4HP well spotted what a Dork Tartan Guy / B.M. / ala Cpt America proved to be.....after reading a few of the Tartan Guy posts it all comes together have a look at this post from T.GHe's right! Don't you guys ever get BKK overnights? Real cheap with the Baht 55 to the dollar!!

Then check out B.M. Roster for May has a o/n in BKK ...Shikes I have been trying to get one of those overnights for the last 2 top bids an missed out, you will have to let me know how you do it B.M. ahhh second thoughts forget it.

Priceless.........

[kiwi_r4]

To Brian (or whoever appears on the day)

I would like you to join me in the PYSCOMETRIC thread for a while to answer some pertinent questions for an evaluation of your well being. I’m concerned that your own Emirates Psychometric Department may have omitted to ask relevant questions.

Please be prepared because we’re VERY pertinacious.

Regards,

Kiwi.



(I shake my head in disbelief at the number of idiots I’ve met, I’m sorry to say)

PS, Please don’t be afraid as I feel I know you quite well. I’ve seen pictures of your kitchen, lounge, bedroom and curtains. Did you ever find the guy who stole your dishwasher?


4HP,
Pictures supplied at presentation. I'm not a stalker!

[Tail Rota]

Hi Guys

well welll well......what do we have here then:= .....Trainer Brian is a multiple personality.....well thats just going to be great for the sim. :ugh: Now we will have no idea who we are dealing with. :cool:
........hhhhmmmmm..... orrrr wiiillll weeeee :E

Hey scarbble queen (aka Kiwi r4) what the hell does pertinacious mean. You must have the largest set of........ahhh.....dictionaries on the planet.

do us all a favour and go wright on the womans day forum. from what I have read so far I doubt you are even a kiwi........in fact after the Trainer Brian gag...........Im not sure who or what you are.....I suspect you are the reason Trainer Brian spends so much time in BKK. :D

TR:ok:

[Outta Heresoon]

Must have hit a nerve. Tartan Guy has pulled all of his posts. Perhaps with no anonimity his agendas and exagerations of T&C's have made him too transparent.

on a side note...since when has the Thai Bhat been at 55:1? Yet another glorious exaggeration of the Real situation. Try 25% less. Mind you that seems to be a common number in EK. Employee productivity +25%, Dubai inflation +25%...

...number of no-shows to courses 25%
...number of newly arriving aircraft to be parked 25% .....:bored:

[4HolerPoler]

Guys, a quick straw poll - do we let the Tartan guy creep off into his hole or do I undelete his posts & maintain his hugely embarrassing exposure? 4HP

[Zomp]

4holer,
bring them back please, I want to show my friends otherwise they don't believe me.
I am sure Brian doesn't mind because he thinks he is in the right.:D

[shawarma]

he likes to be heard, let him be heard:=

[Yossarian]

4HP, bring them back pls. This deserves to be seen.

[4HolerPoler]

Sure thing; your wish is my command. If someone could check the portal & send me a PM with his next sign-on I'll do so, just around about the time the blue Volvo is pulling up outside his place.

4HP

[picu]

Jeez 4HP, you need updating! We haven't used blue Volvos in years! It's silver Audis now. (expect lime green Padminins at the next change, costcutting and all that:)

[Alphaprot]

4HP, nice job :ok:

[Tail Rota]

4hp too good to be true....:E ...bring it all back


TR:ok:

[4HolerPoler]

Guys, I'm sorry but it seems as if Brian's found a friend or at least a little sympathy with one my fellow mods - the Tartan Guy no longer exists on this site - his user name has been expunged from the system, like it never existed. I saw it coming & copied the whole thread onto an admin forum but even on that thread his posts are history.

Only way he could have done this is with Supermod assistance. I smell a rat because my fellow mod's are aware of my intentions & no-one has called to say - "Hey I did Brian a favor & killed his ID." I know that he made this request by email to our Admin server but I wasn't aware that we were arbitrarily into assisting scumbags dig themselves out of the ****e.

Such is life; I'm sure he has huge regrets & it's probably a good thing he's climbed up his own hole.

4HP

[A330guy]

Am I the only one that feels that no matter who posts what, they should remain anonymous. People can surely speculate among themselves if someone is being "unscrupulous" but I don't think the moderators should give away a persons identity. I was under the impression that we were relatively safe on these forums. Obviously that is not the case!

"Remember the warning at the bottom of the page - As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous , to elicit certain reactions"

Please moderators let us know where we stand.

[ekwhistleblower]

A330,

I don't think the moderator gave away his identity, his vociferous use of his own personal facts gave him away. Also by searching his posts there were all sorts of links to the articles in the press prior to its publication. He raised his head above the parapet and then everyone else shot it off.

As to being anonymous, I would never post something that is either deceitful or that would be deeply embarassing to me if I were discovered. As soon as personal information is in the public domain (without illegal acquisition) it is fair game and can be used against you. (Remember the Guvnor?)

Just to show you how crazy you have to be to release personal information on the web, I downloaded the site, prior to a flight, to read down route. All the deleting in the world cannot get rid of everything, just ask Gary Glitter, this is what Tartan Guy said that so inflammed the other users:


It seems the common theme on this thread is from people who have become disgruntled with their employer and can't stand someone being happy when they are not.

I have known Brian Murray for nearly 20 years and he was the main reason I came to EK and I'm not a DEC. I know that his parents divorced when he was 11 and he went to work. He put himself through college on a military scholarship, was selected for flight school, flew home during Officer Candidate School to marry his financee who was diagnosed with cancer. He took care of her for the next 6 years before she died at age 29. His youngest son has been battling Leukemia for the past 11 years and has limited use of his hands from a bone-marrow transplant. He loves his family and has found the secret to life. You see everyone is responsible for their own happiness, and not a job, a spouse, a car, or money can provide happiness....it comes from within.

When USAirways began it's slide toward it's second bankrupcy, Brian looked around the world for the best way to support his family in his chosen profession and came upon the best corporation he could find to insure stability and opprotunity and safety for his family. Probably not unlike most of you. The difference between Brian and the unhappy people on this site is he is proud of his choice....it seems most of you are not.

How do I know all of this about Brian Murray? How do I know that he worked at USAirways for 23 years and flew Captain for 20 and over 4 as a check-airman? How do I know that he worked right up until the last two days before he came to Emirates and left behind over 700 hours of sick leave on the books when he left? How do I know that he would trade his Captain's seat with any First Officer right now for his son to have use of his hands again? I was his last student that he gave line-training to. He never wanted anything for free.....he just wants a fair days wage for a fair day's work. Thanks to him I'm now enjoying my dream of flying good equipment, to great places and loving every minute.

Still feeling sorry for yourself or your lot in life? Take a look at the following conditions from some web boards in the states:

Of course as professionals we want to minimize fuel usage and do our best but then I think this company will have me get out of bed at 3am to do one leg with a dh home all to make about 100 bucks for the day. I graduated college 23 years ago this spring yet my services under this circumstance is worth 100 dollars for a days time. Lets see after taxes, something for retirement, something for Mr. Woerths 540,000 salary , something for the disability insurance premium that the AWA pilots dont pay etc. etc. etc. that 100 bucks is maybe 40 dollars. Yup, a tank of gas for getting up in the middle of the night. Im really glad my salesman neighbors who are on average 5 years younger than me with a fraction of my training dont know this fact as it sure would be good laughing material at the summer barbecue. I
guess my counterpart at AWA is worth more or does a better job or something (even though hes 15 years younger) as I feel at this point it is us that is paying for Mr. parkers 5.6 million dollar comp. package. Its time to say "no". No B scale, no rediculous reserve abuse bucket crap etc. No to trashing our longevity for travel purposes. Personally Ive done my B scale stint, sat sideways for a total of ten years and do NOT wish to be Mr. Happy FO for 36 year old Captain X from AWA either. Our age and longevity will be respected.

Let's see, this guy has to drive himself to work and use his own gas at $3.00 per gal.!! Can you believe it? And this guy only gets 50% credit for Dead Head...oh my gosh. And this guy has to pay Union Dues....can't believe it! And this guys is an F/O with 20 years seniority......is it EK? And this guy has to pay for his own health care and only gets 21 days leave......and he's a pilot??? Or how about this one.......

Should we have to choose one more time, as for me goes, I’ll choose to battle and risk the popsicle stand than to give an inch to Glass et tal. We are as we speak operating within the worst psychological conditions as a group who have been wounded and don’t the light of the day when all of this BS will stop.
Or this.......

Paul no one is pleased about the changes in the compensation for our profession, but companies will try to do what they have to survive and gain the financial investment necessary to do so many find it difficult to adjust until they are on the brink of economic collapse. There are always weak companies and market forces frequently offer seats at below cost to gain market share frequently stronger companies purposely take loses in markets to gain market share and this is what I was speaking about last summer. I believe the industry should have a regulated minimum fare based upon the average cost per seat mile times the distance and adding in the taxes, the lower cost carriers would profit more and grow more thus driving down the costs but the huge losses due to these predatory pricing attacks which are made up with bankruptcy, lowered compensation, and increased productivity would come to a stop.

The guys on this site are not happy, but unlike PPRUNE, they are civil and correspond with repect. What would life be without personal attacks, googled newpaper articles, and blatent lies about a persons qualifications.......you will probably never know.

Well, I've made a promise to myself that this will be the last time I will visit or post on this site. I will leave all the "Glass is half-full" guys to drown in their misery and sorrows. To attack each other on a regular basis and only feel good inside when someone else is made to feel bad. For all you unhappy F/O's, if you can fix Brian's son's hands so he can play golf again, call him and I know he'll give you his seat. But until then, I like Brian choose to be happy.....not because of a job, a seat position, the size of my bank account, but just because it makes life so much more fun!

Cheers!

[uplock]

Don't worry T.G. still exists in Cyber Space doesn't matter how many emails he sends to the Super Mod.

Even when web pages are deleted or removed you can use this function to search old deleted and removed web pages.

http://www.archive.org/

Just one of the many methods in web world and the big wide either...

[Fugazi]

B.M...You are an absolute disgrace, & have brought shame on yourself. A formal apology is the least you could offer to make some kind of amends. Silence will only heap more scorn on you.
That's it from me on PPrune for a while. Maybe a touch too sensitive, but Tartan's post, or rather B.M's post, which ekwhistleblower has re-posted, is just too stomach churning for words. :yuk:
Right off for some retail therapy to cheer myself up!!! :)

[Alphaprot]

A330guy, I see your point and even agree with you to a certain amount.
But, in fairness 4HP did not disclose TG's actual identity, even if he did say that we have a celebrity in our midst.
We still have no actual proof positive who TG is, just a fairly good idea.
Could 4HP have been even more discreet, yes. Am I glad he identified that things were not all they seemed, hell yes.

[specialrider987]

Well, I have just caught up with this thread... :cool:

The conclusion of this is extraordinary. Thanks for all the effort 4HP and fellow EK dudes. :D

Wowzer...

I am... speechless. Mrs. Murray's little boy needs to visit the Doc I'm afraid...

Gentlemen, don't forget the bid function: Avoid fly with xxxxxx :ok:

[montencee]

Gentlemen, don't forget the bid function: Avoid fly with xxxxxx :ok:

Bringing this back to the top of the page for emphasis.

BM is currently in training to be a TRI (in progress as I write, in fact).

Any Captain getting a high number of this bid function will be called into the office for tea and biccies.

Need I say more.

[Alphaprot]

Any Captain getting a high number of this bid function will be called into the office for tea and biccies
Unless of course you have done some sterling work to advertise the company
Still its a good option.

[IXNAT]

Well, really disappointed in you 4HP. Whatever, or whomever TG is should have no bearing on what a moderator does on these sites What was gained by a hint of identification of a poster my a moderator? For someone else, no problem. In my opinion, it was highly unethical for a moderator to even hint at who TG was. In my opinion, you should have PM'd him and do whatever moderators do. Perhaps you did do that. But if there is the hint of impropiety (i need a spell check) by the moderators, or the possibility that individuals be identified by the moderators, posting will come to a close, maybe. You chastised me for using the sc*b word, and I agreed. I have thought most of your posts as a moderator were well intentioned, but by doing what you did, in my opinion, you violated the secret moderator code of conduct. The rules of engagement are now changed by the possiblity of moderators hinting at who the ids are of posters. :=
Regards,
IXNAT

[6853]

Well done 4HP. Yes I know it may be unethical but how unethical and cowardly is it to pretend to be someone else and post under disguise, especially when you are doing so much damage to an already unpleasant situation. We dont need people like the person under question around, let alone in our training department! As a pilot group we have had and always will have a lot of "enemies", we dont need people amongst ourselves to help sell us out, especially when they are doing it so obviously to promote their own interests. Ambition is one thing and a healthy thing but not at the expense of your colleagues, a seemingly subtle difference that so often gets missed or ignored in our game. And, no, I am not another bitter and twisted individual. Been in the company for twelve years but also disappointed at the way things have changed so radically in the last three or so years. I have also learnt that it wont help to moan and that things will only change when they absolutely have to and we are obviously not at that stage yet?

[Snake man]

Well done, 4HP. You get my vote for doing the right thing. Expressing one's views whilst remaining anonymous is one thing, shameless self-promotion while posing as a third party is simply called deceitful, and deserves to be exposed.
I hope that anyone reading the articles which this man wrote for the newspapers will consider the character of the author when judging the substance of his articles, and draw the very obvious conclusions.

SM.

[uplock]

Well done 4HP, got my vote for a job well done You sure B.M. hasn't slipped around to IXNAT home and is using his log in and key board...


"Nothing Hurts like the truth" or was it "Truth is stranger than fiction"

[4HolerPoler]

Well, I'd like to tender my sincere apologies to those that I have offended. No doubt about it, I over-stepped my remit as a moderator. I exposed someone that I quite clearly saw was being deceitful; someone who had already done his peers a disservice. My duty as an impartial moderator is to treat all members of this site as equals; I'm expected to provide the same tolerance to the dishonest as I am to the regular, honest guys. Well, something in me popped with this slimeball & I crossed the line. All I can say is; I'm sorry. Regretful? I don't think so. Would I do it again? I don't know; depends on the circumstances. In such, I expose my weakness as a human - I have emotions and one of those is integrity.

Please feel free to express your outrage regarding my actions by sending your email to [email protected] - I thoroughly enjoy this task but I question my ability to be completely impartial to the scumbags of this planet and in such am probably not the right guy for this position.

Once again, I'm sorry. But not half as sorry as our Tartan friend. :E

4HP

[145qrh]

4 HP, as honest a post as I have ever read on PPrune....

Dont even think about resigning, there is enough of that in the ME at the moment......

As for the Tartan one, with a neck made of solid brass I would be surprised if he gave another thought..

Would love to be fly on the wall when EK management realise what has gone on,,,employing someone as a trainer with split personality....oops on second thoughts.......

[Fugazi]

4 HP. Your last post shows your integrity, and that you are the right man for the job. The same cannot be said of that lowlife, BM.

[turtleneck]

it might be in contradiction to pprune rules - but it had to be done. right so 4HP.
creatures like tg should be banned not only from a pprune, but just as much from any serious cockpit.
i will avoid him for the simple reason that split personality is outright dangerous in a crew cooperation - and because he's simply despiceable.
ttn

[Muttley Crew]

Actually, 4HP, integrity is a characteristic, not an emotion. Not necessarily prevalent in your average airline pilot, either.

HOWEVER… I think the point is regarding Tartan Guy, how stupid do you have to be to register under your own email address if you’re gonna play silly buggers on pprune, like this guy has done??

(Damn… which one did I register under… wish I could remember)

PS Regarding your integrity, 4HP, thanks for giving me a little leeway.

[A330guy]

Thanks 4 HP. You do a fine job! Please don't quit on us.

[max AB]

Group Hug...

[4HolerPoler]

I'm fine, don't shed a tear for me. No intention of going anywhere; my point was that if some of the members were unhappy with my transgression that they should write to the boss.

Now, please, back to the topic. Or is it time to close this thread?

4HP

[whossorrynow]

Contrary to my thoughts yesterday I reckon there's still a bit of mileage here.

Not least in examining the conduct of some of his USair brethren over the last few days. As a tight group they must have known that BM has been posting for several months as Tartan guy pretending to be an EK F/O. Yet as recently as the 6th May the following text from post #42 (at the moment) was written in support of BMs abilities as a Training Captain.



You may be pleasantly surprised if you ever do find yourself in the situation though.

TP

The only pleasantly surprising situation I would like to find myself in is to see PBMjrs name on the RG list on the portal (thats if the RG list was still there).

Having said that, there might be a certain curiosity value to having the old fella around.

But as a TRI?

How about F/O.

[millerscourt]

I am surprised that that old timer ]411A has not expressed an opinion about a fellow American, especially in view of his hostility to every US Mainline Airline or perhaps he is still asleep in his rocking chair down in deepest Arizona?

4HP The future is no longer blue but silver:D Keep up the good work.

As an outsider I have read these posts with great amusement until BM's personal life was brought into the equation as if to make everyone feel guilty about the ribbing he was rightfully getting.

[Outta Heresoon]

4HP Job well done...Still. "Discretion is the better part of valour" and you have excorcised that. It seems there is a consensus of those deeming BM's approach to his viewpoints offensive. Firstly by publicly overstating the facts of employment with EK (no one has ever questioned the fact that there are some that are happy here) followed by blatent misrepresentations of the interpretations of the T&C's of employment. Truly a manager in the making. The only difference is BM is willing to put his viewpoint in print (EK managemennt has in the past several months demonstrated a profound ineptitude to follow the task at hand..."MANAGE!!" ).

I would also like to add to ED if you are reading this (or any of his cronies please pass this along) That Quoting "with reference" from the FOM in a FCI or pilot wide memo is a highly disrespectful and insulting way of communicating with your "fellow" aircrew. As professionals we are duly aware of our responsibilities as published in the FOM, and aside from the unrealistic number of changes that we are to keep up with, If you choose to approach it in this manner you demonstatively are out of touch with the human and proffessional nature of the crew you have working for you. Bravo... yet another stellar management icon to steer us through the company's most influential times.

I am one not to see things as dismal as they may appear to some, but due to middle management's ineptitude (or perhaps it is an underlying directive from UPPER MANAGEMENT) I have lost confidence in Management''s ability to effectively deal with the situation (expansion) presenting itself without compromising somewhere (usualy as safety issues as history will tell).

Stay tuned for yet as "un-announced" changes to the upgrade/hiring policy's change as a result of management's patheticly dismal interperatations of the current industry situation.

ED I hope you are able to overcome the obstacle immediately above you to bring this department the repute it deserves, but PLEASE treat us with respect as fellow proffesional aviators!
Vivendi Vivendi VivendI... Open your ******* eyes and stop seeing things through rose coloured glasses. In the current scheme of things a few million dollars spent establishing a solid foundation are worth tenfold on the final product you will deliver to your peers in the years to come.

Let us all prosper.

[LimeyLHR]

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=72490

Here is what pilots in the U.S. thought of Ed. Mesaba (NW Airlink) was the previous airline he worked for.

[IXNAT]

Just wanted all to know that I think the mea culpa done by 4HP was the right thing. Notice, I did not even comment on the conduct of the individual in question. Unethical behavior by one party does not, in my opinion, constitute a reason for someone else to make an unethical mistake. 4HP, I truely thank you the work you are doing. A daunting task, but fun for you.

If anybody gives a rat's a** I will get intel back from the recruiting session in ATL next week.
IXNAT

[whossorrynow]

The idea of BM as a TRI is bugging me.

But in the interests of balanced comment, what is he allegedly guilty of?

Certainly he doesn't hold back in coming forward, and his interview with the female WSJ journalist was a perfect opportunity for him to tell the world how far he'd come. The article would have been spun up by the reporter leading to what we took offence to.
Guilty of boastfullness, nothing more really.

As Tartan guy he allegedly spent several months pretending to be an EK F/O, but so have a number of other EK DECs and they will continue to do so. It seems to be endemic of the breed.
Guilty conscience I think.

When the WSJ article started to work against him his perfect world started to implode. It appears that he became incapable of rational thought as the Tartan guy posts were deluded in the extreme.
So, guilty of delusion.

Collectively an unattractive picture, separately perhaps not unusual responses to his situation, but in all cases taken to extremes.

His best course of action would be to quietly look for another job (in another industry). I doubt he will do that, so I will ask his colleagues (you know who you are) to take him aside and encourage him to discontinue his TRI training and keep well away from any training or management positions. And reporters.

Oh, and 4hp has my vote of confidence too. And if he thinks it's time to close this thread, I would agree with him.

[Payscale]

Go figure...now everybody want to an Emirates FO..even DECs :confused:

[yardman]

In my short 3 years on Pprune, this has got to be the most entertaining thread I've ever read. Keep it up guys. And to 4 HP, thanks for working in the 'Mod Squad'. I think you do a great job:ok:

Yardman

[ruserious]

Yep, keep it here, needs to be kept at the top.

[Tail Rota]

Great job 4hp


wiating for IXNAT's intel......:E


TR:ok:

[IXNAT]

Great job 4hp


wiating for IXNAT's intel......:E


TR:ok:

Will be more than happy to report. So far know of five retired DAL guys that have interviewed, and around 10 more doing "sim interviews in Atlanta. Four of the five will most likely be joining, but all five were offered jobs, three have 777 time and all int'l captains before retirement. More intel to come.

IXNAT

[6853]

Is it true that Brian has applied or is in the process of trying for the Chief Pilots Airbus job or something similiar? Quite honestly I dont give a rats a...e who fills those posts any longer as they seem to be a breed of their own and only out to look after themselves. I dont even know what our present chief looks like! (maybe thats a good sign)

[bafanguy]

Can a casual observer ask a question about this situation ? I've followed this BM thing because it's interesting.

I've seen repeated references to resenting his effort in move into management. Why would anyone care if he did ? Personally, I never understood the desire to work in the office but figured that every guy who did would just be vacating a schedule I might want. Better them than me.

Perhaps it's because he's not been there long so won't have the experience of the pilots he'd be managing ? I didn't think it was unusual to be managed by people with less line experience than the pilots they managed. It was certainly the case where I worked.

Just curious.

[shawarma]

i think its because he is as popular as a pork pie at the local shisa club..

[bafanguy]

i think its because he is as popular as a pork pie at the local shisa club..

...I see...

[Muttley Crew]

I've seen repeated references to resenting his effort in move into management. Why would anyone care if he did ?Perhaps because it is so often the case that the guys who into mangement the MOST BADLY are usually the ones who are least suitable for the job, from the point of view of those they will be "managing"...

Exception: A certain DCP.

[specialrider987]

Mrs Murray's little boy Brian should not be anywhere near a chief pilot position because he has demonstrated that he doesn't have the integrity or moral authority.

It's quite simple.

[sandflake]

don't know lads, great deal for Emirates. 2 possibly 3 CP for the price of 1. Though hard to get rid of them all if you have to dismiss him/them:hmm: . End of service benefit could get pricey. If we all used the BM policy the crewing issues would be solved!

[6853]

Hey, where's Brian gone?

[Zomp]

sucking up to the managment, what else?