Qantas Overseas Pilots jobs move Attacked

[Wirraway]

Thurs "AAP"

Qantas overseas jobs move attacked
From: AAP By Samantha Baden
May 04, 2006

PILOTS have criticised a move by Qantas to begin advertising Jetstar positions internationally, warning it is another attempt to send the company's core functions offshore.

Australian and International Pilots Association (AIPA) vice president Jeff Lunt today said advertisements had appeared on the international industry website Flight Global.

The ads invite expressions of interest for pilots to work for Qantas subsidiary Jetstar on long-haul international routes and domestic short-haul routes within Australia, he said.

Qantas announced it was scrapping its Australian Airlines brand in favour of its low cost subsidiary Jetstar in April.

Jetstar will become an international airline in November, subject to regulatory approval, and it is seeking approval to fly to Japan as well as the traditional outbound destinations of Hawaii, Indonesia, Thailand and Vietnam.

Mr Lunt said Qantas was turning its back on Australian pilots, who gave the company its reputation as the world's safest airline.

“It's a very strange situation when Qantas ... tries to recruit abroad for direct entry captains while there are numerous, highly skilled and well-trained second officers, first officers and captains currently employed within the Qantas Group available to fill the Jetstar positions,” Capt Lunt said.
Qantas pilots, until today, have worked under a system in which they join the airline in a junior position and work their way up the ranks to a command position, he said.

“By recruiting overseas, Qantas is denying highly trained and experienced Australians the opportunity to take up the available Jetstar positions,” he said.

“Given the availability of local pilots, only one conclusion can be drawn – this is another attempt to drive down wages and conditions by off-shoring work.”

Capt Lunt called on Jetstar to reverse its decision and urgently meet AIPA to discuss the staffing issue.

Qantas human resources executive general manager Kevin Brown said it was Qantas Group policy to hire Australians.

“Over 500 Australians have applied to the advertised positions,” Mr Brown said.

==================================================

[Pin Head]

But don't you need a work vias to apply for Jet star. With that taking up to 15months plus was is the point of advertising globally apart from tyring to claw back all those with the magic tick in the box currently working abroad?

[Tail Rota]

hhhmmmmmmmm:rolleyes:

like all the other airlines at the moment Jet will be looking anywhere they can to crew planes. I am sure there are plenty of good keen guys in Aussie ready to go......however a lot of experienced Aussie guys are working out at the moment.

My guess is they are going to test the market. If they cannot recruit guys with good experience from within those golden sandy shores........they will be forced to take who ever they can get from outside.

Qantas human resources executive general manager Kevin Brown said it was Qantas Group policy to hire Australians.

“Over 500 Australians have applied to the advertised positions,” Mr Brown said.

Airline management are now coming under a lot of pressure as the pilot market dries up:E

Isnt this a good thing?....sit tight

TR:ok:

[backspace]

Its not that the qualified people are drying up. It is because they want A330 qualified pilots to come straight into the left seat. Thats the only way they will get the J* international ops up and running withouy any significant delay.

[Eagleman]

Correct a mondo Mate. and we will get rid of seniority at the same time.

Thank you JPC :} :} :} :} :} :} :} :}

[blueloo]

Eagleman, and whilst your getting rid of seniority, you will get rid of a decent pay, any conditions and all respect.

Its really win win, isnt it?

[Sue Ridgepipe]

From the latest AIPA update :

"Recently, Jetstar advertised positions for wide-bodied command and f/o slots and narrow-bodied command and f/o slots. Many AIPA members have expressed an interest in taking up these positions."

So does this mean that all those mainline boys & girls that were slagging off the Jetstar pilots about their EBA now want to sign up for those very conditions they were apparently so vehemently opposed to? :confused:

[B A Lert]

Thurs "AAP"
Qantas overseas jobs move attacked
From: AAP By Samantha Baden
May 04, 2006.......
Mr Lunt said Qantas was turning its back on Australian pilots, who gave the company its reputation as the world's safest airline......


AIPA blokes just don't get it. A lot of other people can rightfully say that pilots are just one group of people who must share Qantas's safety record. When will, and can, they realise that pilots are just one group of many who contribute to the record?

Tell me, Mr Lunt. Who was responsible for putting OJH into the golf course at Bangkok and inflicted considerable damage, not only to the aircraft, but to Qantas's reputation?

I agree...uncalled for

Woomera

[Elroy Jettson]

B A Lert, no one will will argue with you that the pilots are solely responsible for the safety record. Not sure that Captain Lunt is suggesting that either. He is right in saying that it wouldn't have happened without them though. Other factors include fate, luck, Boeing manufacturing integrity, probability, and every one else in the QF team. (Except accountants and HR and slash and burn managers and board members). (Whinge whinge!) :}

Don't want to teach you to suck eggs, but do you know of any incident that has one solitary cause? Chuck "James Reason" in google for a refresher. If you have a spare week, have a read of the QF1 NTSB report. Every department, just about, got a touch up on that one. Not just techies. "There but for the grace of god go I". :)

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Great post there Lert... making fun of a guys name for the sort of cheap shot most of us left behind in second grade.

Jeff won't lose any sleep over it of course. He is one of the smartest operators you would ever meet. The sort of guy who keeps his mind sharp by completing a part-time law degree in four years during his slip time.

He'd eat guys like you for breakfast.

[Victor India]

B A Lert,

You said A lot of other people can rightfully say that pilots are just one group of people who must share Qantas's safety record. When will, and can, they realise that pilots are just one group of many who contribute to the record?

but then confused the hell out of me by saying Tell me, Mr Lunt (what an unfortunate name - did you have a hard time at school?), who was responsible for putting OJH into the golf course at Bangkok and inflicted considerable damage, not only to the aircraft, but to Qantas's reputation?

I think it's pretty rich that you bleat on about how there are many other groups of people in Qantas who contribute to the safety record (I agree with you completely on that point) but then go on to try to hang the Bangkok thing on one person (or group of people - AIPA pilots). As with any incident/accident, there were many contributing factors in that event, and if it was that crews' fault alone why are they still working the line?

VI

PS : I'd suggest that slagging off at a bloke's name isn't the way to "win friends and influence people"... Grow up!!
PPS : Topic creep acknowledged...

[International Trader]

Come on fellas,you all knew it was going to go this way.
Using the" world's safest airline" bit just doesn't cut it.Using the "highly qualified ..blah,blah,blah" bit is the same.
From what I have seen of the QF "machine" ,I think that it leaves a lot to be desired. Someone even told me that the whole QF CRM policy was just a paragraph in a manual that required crews to bring everything to the captains attention. It took an ex Ansett pilot( now second officer no less) to convince them that the rest of the world was a long way ahead of "the safest airline in the world".
Good god !What could that second rate airline possibly do better than us? What can we learn from them?
Answer is nothing to those who will not see.
Proper CRM may have saved them from the accident ( sorry... I.N.C.I.D.E.N.T.!) on the 19th at Bangkok.
Trying to cover up accident just shows that they learned little from the experience.

QF union types are just upset because the Geoff Plan is working and the light at the end of the tunnel is not the reflextion of a bright new dollar coin, it's the head light of the express train that will hit the QF pilot body head on.
All over Rover.
Plenty of better qualified,more able and maybe safer pilots
overseas. Funny,they happen to hold Australian citizenship and used to work for a now defunct Australian Airline called.....you quessed it!
From J*In's point of view,even if they only come for a couple of years until the 787s come, .....that's enough.
Me thinks that QF pilots better start taking more interest in the classified section of Flight Global.
I can pass on a few names of agents if anyone is interested ,and there are places in the world that are just as nice as Cronulla or the Northside.

[International Trader]

P.S,

Nothing is stopping you QF types from slipping in an application,just to see how highly qualified and trained you really are!

[cartexchange]

International trader.
what a nasty and bitter post
the QF pilots are simply trying to protect their conditions.
What is wrong with that!
Do you really think they deserve that vitriol?

[Vorsicht]

Protect their conditions. LOL

Fact is Q pilots have looked down there noses at everyone else, particularly those that have failed the almighty Q psychometric test. Now they are getting uppity because these same guys are looking to take jobs off them.

The writing has been on the wall for years and the Q pilot body have had their head firmly wedged in the sand, or perhaps somewhere else.

The horse has bolted my friend. There is no doubt that Q pilots are adequately trained, probably no better or worse than most airlines. But the same type of guys that are over seas in the left hand seat of triple sevens and three thirties, are still serving self agrandising Qantas captain tea and carrying their bags in your outfit. This whole crap about Q pilots and the safety record is just that.

If you wanted to stop this juggernaut, you should have been doing something about it 5 years ago. I nearly fell off my chair laughing when a mate of mind related to me how the senior Q guys voted to send the F/O's to Singapore in return for a payrise. With that sort of unity, GD has got you well and truly covered.

[cartexchange]

Protect their conditions. LOL
If you wanted to stop this juggernaut, you should have been doing something about it 5 years ago. I nearly fell off my chair laughing when a mate of mind related to me how the senior Q guys voted to send the F/O's to Singapore in return for a payrise. With that sort of unity, GD has got you well and truly covered.

Im not a pilot! is the above fact or fiction! I have never heard them discuss that one!:sad:

[cartexchange]

here is an updated one, I wont post the whole article.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19024728-23349,00.html

[Wirraway]

Fri "The Australian"

Jetstar recalls Ansett's air force
Steve Creedy, Aviation writer
May 05, 2006

THE fall of Ansett saw Australian pilots spread throughout the world but an overseas advertising campaign by Jetstar International has underscored the extent of the diaspora.

Advertisements lodged by the start-up in an international aviation magazine - as well as in newspapers in Australia, Dubai, Bahrain and Singapore - had produced 730 responses by Monday, 81 per cent of them from Australian citizens or residents.

"I think that after Ansett, there are a lot of Australians working around the world," Jetstar chief executive Alan Joyce. "And there are lot of very well-experienced and qualified pilots that work for Emirates, Singapore Airlines and other carriers in the region who would like to come back to Australia."

The new airline's move to advertise overseas alarmed the Australian and International Pilots Association, which wrote to transport Minister Warren Truss expressing its concern and calling on him to intervene.

The union said the Qantas offshoot had been advertising overseas so it could directly recruit foreign pilots.

"It's a very strange situation when Qantas, one of the safest and most profitable airlines in the world, tries to recruit abroad for direct entry captains while there are numerous, highly skilled and well-trained second officers, first officers and captains currently employed within the Qantas group available to fill the Jetstar positions," AIPA vice-president Jeff Lunt said. "Qantas pilots, until today, have worked under a system that saw them join the airline in a junior position and work their way up the ranks to a command."

Mr Joyce said: "The company's policy has always been allied to the group policy and that is we will only hire permanent residents and citizens of Australia. We have never examined the possibility of hiring foreign nationals as pilots."

Jetstar International has been identified as a growth vehicle for Qantas and will eventually account for 22 per cent of the group's foreign flying.

Four A330 aircraft will transfer from Qantas to form the bulk of Jetstar International's start-up fleet and two more will be delivered new from Airbus.

They will be replaced from 2008 by Boeing 787-8s, which will give way to 787-9s capable of flying to Europe and the US.

AIPA has launched federal court action against Qantas, saying members are disadvantaged by the airline launch.

It also appealed against a decision by the Australian Industrial Relations Commission to ratify an enterprise bargaining agreement overwhelmingly endorsed by Jetstar pilots but which AIPA officials say lowers industry wages and standards.

However, Qantas pilots are split on how far the union should go in pursuing the issue.

The more conservative elements are worried it could provoke a backlash from Qantas management.

Mr Joyce said the airline was set to gain from the strong response from Australian pilots working overseas with A330 and A320 experience.

"The advantage that we have is that a lot of them have pretty good hours and experience on the aircraft type that we're operating and the aircraft types that we intend to operate," he said.

"And they'll be flying into a lot of airports that we intend to fly into on a regular basis, so the experience base will be extremely strong." Jetstar was also advertising internally for Qantas pilots to join the airline on three-year contracts.

At the end of three years, they would be required to decide whether they want to return to Qantas or stay permanently.

"We have a number of pilots we've taken under that arrangement and we have a number of pilots we're interviewing and selecting," Mr Joyce said.

Jetstar is upgrading its air operator's certificate to allow it to fly the A330s and to get extended twin-engine operations approval.

The A330s are expected to move over to Qantas in October so they can be repainted.

The interior seating configuration will remain the same but with leather seats and new fittings in Jetstar colours.

The airline remains confident it will start flying by November.

==================================================

[Sunfish]

Let me tell you something as a simple member of the public.

Way back in the 1970's, Australians were proud of Qantas. It was our national airline. It meant something to us, stuck here at the arse end of the world so to speak. The crews seemed to have some feeling that they had something to prove as well and the service was great

There were a number of components to this pride.

The aircraft were maintained right here in Australia by Australian Engineers - the best in the world. We even did it better than the Yanks - at least so I thought when working for Ansett, we looked down at their "buy it and fly it mentality" which means doing the minimum maintenance that Boeing called for.

I've already mentioned the cabin crews - they were great. We used to say things like " Its good having a few blokes and Aussie shielas on Board, why those tiny little Asian girls on Malaysian/ Singapore/Thai would be useless in an emergency blah blah."

Then came the pilots. You were regarded as superior beings. We assumed that you had either just transferred from the RAAF where you had been flying Mirages or FIII's for thousands of hours, or you had flown thousands of hours as an outback bush pilot. In any case we assumed you were the best pilots in the world and could land a 747 on an outback claypan if called upon.

As my dad used to say, "When travelling in Asia, I always sigh with relief when I here an Australain Accent coming from the cockpit".

That was then.

The first incomprehensibility was discovering in about 1980 that the International maintenance market was "rigged" to ensure every 747 transitting Australia (with the exception of close nieghbours aircraft like Air NZ) had to pass through Sydney, leaving Melbourne three hours further from the world of investment than Sydney.

The second incomprehensibility came with the refusal of Qantas to support the domestic pilots strike. This appeared to me to be strange, because it would have forced the Government and airlines to negotiate in my opinion.

The third was the dirty, unethical and probably illegal tricks Qantas used to destroy Compass airlines and its successors.

The fourth was the Qantas reaction to Virgin Blue, including starting up Jetstar - a marketing tactic that is called "pissing in the soup".

The fifth was the discovery that a Qantas Board member was under investigation for alleged illegal behaviour, and his subsequent replacement with a person who appears, on the basis of past performance, to have the businesss acumen of a newt.

The sixth was the discovery via Pprune and a golf course in Bangkok, that QF Pilots are far from a monolithic tribe, and that my early comforting beliefs about their experience and background was totaly unfounded.

Then we discover that despite Qantas being the worlds most profitable airline, it still doesn't want any competition to give the long suffering Australian traveller some relief.

Despite having a virtual monopoly on capacity, Qantas is still threatening to send its maintenance offshore and has disbanded the team that gave it a large chunk of its safety record (and please note, the newer aircraft you are going to receive are not "fail safe" like older designs, but merely "damage tolerant" which translates to much more demanding maintenance standards then at present)

And now Qantas is going to "outsource' its jetstar pilots. How lovely! I can't wait for a J* pilot to mistake YMEN for YMML. I look forward to hearing broken English from the cockpit.

But then again why should I worry? I've got the lowest ticket price. The Qantas shareholders and management are happy.

Well I do worry.

I worry about flying in aircraft maintained in third world countries where there is a culture of "Face" that requires mistakes not to be openly acknowledged. I worry that since they are a third party operators, they have absolutely no responsibility to the Australian travelling public. I worry that Australian regulators haven't a hope in hell of policing what these overseas guys do.

I worry that the Board and Management of Qantas have time horizons limited by their paypacket and bonus, as the Qantas annual report spells out in detail. I'm worried that their short term thinking is one day going to be responsible for long term results - deaths. If you want a sample of their business acumen, look at J* Asia!

I worry about flying with pilots who are not born here or trained here. It's bad enough in the circuit at YMMB on some days trying to hear what someone is trying to say, and knowing, that if he cannot work out what to say he is going to say nothing at all because that is the culture he grew up in.

I worry that one of these days some pressurised pilot, driven by the "low cost model" is going to make a mistake. It almost happened in Canberra.

In short, since the company is run by a marketer, Qantas is just a brand name now, and a pretty crappy one at that.

I won't willingly fly Qantas or J*. I tell my friends not to either because ultimately you are going to cut one too many corners, and there won't be a convenient golf course around when it happens.

[International Trader]

Vorsicht said:
The writing has been on the wall for years and the Q pilot body have had their head firmly wedged in the sand, or perhaps somewhere else.

Isay: Definitely not the sand!

Sunfish:
Can't disagree with the general idea of your post.
Funny thing I find about QF is the cabin service.You fly QF just to see and hear a familiar face,generally spend the time either having your shoulder pounded by a fat thigh or having a fat ar-e thrust in your face as the FA goes past, or hoping to at least get a meal if you can get back to your seat before the trolley passes. You leave wondering just who was the one working.I have actually been on a 7 hour flight and yes got a meal but no coffee, too busy,should have asked before.Well I did,several times and in fact waited 30 mins for them to answer the FA call button.

Try to get that level of service on an Asian airline, pretty had for them to,in their opinion- stoop that low.
Let's face it the danger period is the take off and landing.The rest of the flight( the other 90%) is about?
Same for the pilots. The "Creme de la Creme" of pilots as a QF management type put it to me has long ago reached it's "use by date".
You have to be well ahead (mentally) in a jet aeroplane ( or any aeroplane really) .The QF pilot group have found themselves sleeping in the bunk when they should have been on the deck years ago. Time has passed to avoid hitting the mountain. My advice is to try to pick the best spot to land and hope that it is a soft one.

[B A Lert]

Wimmera and others - I am sorry and apologise at the cheap shot I made at the AIPA bloke's name. Maybe I shouldn't post after a shot or two of white, but I still believe that pilots, and in particular Qantas pilots, do not enjoy a monopoly on the credit for a safe operation. I reiterate that this claim by AIPA does illlustrate just how poor is its grip on reality.

Borg - most of us could complete a law, or any other for that matter, degree were we to enjoy the down time of pilots. I'd like to see anyone complete a law degree in 4 years while holding a full-time day job and maintaining a semblance of family life. In fact, many of us do so at night time and on week-ends etc while holding full time jobs that carry much responsibility, stress etc etc. Unlike pilots, many people who work on the ground are never off the job but I don't think you would understand that concept as no one works as hard or put in the hours as you blokes do they?

[Chimbu chuckles]

For god's sake...QF are not trolling third world airlines for barely literate natives to come fly their aircraft for 10 cents on the dollar. They are merely hoping to attract highly experienced Australians back home to fly some of their aeroplanes. It saves on training costs...rather than promoting from within and then promoting others to fill those vacancies and then hiring newbies to replace those recently promoted they are trying to hire a group who have lots of relevant experience on the specific aeroplane type who can be checked to line in a few weeks at minimal cost...5 sims and 20 sectors.

The world has changed since beancounters started running it...we are dealing with people who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing...it's in every level from Federal Govt on down, these are the people who ground Concorde. If they'd been running things 30 yrs earlier we wouldn't have had Concorde to begin with...I think it sucks but there you have it.

I agree with much of the anti QF rhetoric in relation to service standards etc but when your Captain Lunt starts scaremongering along the lines above it gets a little childish....you're exposing yourselves to ridicule by claiming QF is looking to 'outsource' pilots for Jetstar.

It very much remains to be seen whether they get enough experienced pilots who are prepared to chance being bounced back to the RHS in 2 yrs...the guys I speak to in the ME and Asia would not be prepared to take that chance on the packages being offered...but they will get a few....just remember the few they get will be a least as experienced as any QF pilot and have been made to jump through at least as many hoops as any QF pilot...and usually more. Remember that the average Ozzie captain coming home will have spent yrs flying with often very innexperienced FOs in very challenging parts of the world...often bordering on SP.

[hotnhigh]

How about 60 cents to the dollar then?

[blueloo]

The only people who have made claims about QANTAS's safety appear to be those not in QANTAS....funny I havent seen any QANTAS pilots mention safety.....

I wonder what that means......raise your hand if you have some psychotic chip on your shoulder ........anyone anyone?


Bueller Bueller ??? ?

[The_Equaliser]

A question. Is it a legal/legislative requirement for QANTAS Group pilots to be Australian citizens or is it just current QANTAS recruiting practice? I think AIPA was just trying to pin down QF management intentions in a public forum. Thay have succeeded, in that QF have confirmed Australian citizens only will be recruited.

[Victor India]

Equaliser,

I personally know of one QF mainline pilot who is not an Australian citizen and does not hold an Australian passport (although he has done in the past). I believe there are others. He was hired in the last couple of years whilst working for an overseas airline.

Different situation though as he joined at the bottom of the QF seniority list as is usual practice so noone really gets their g-bangers in a knot...

VI

[Sunfish]

Chimbu, I agree that Qantas would like to attract expatriates back for sound business reasons. However, whats to stop the Qantas beancounters from requesting lower and lower pilot pay until it is recruiting barely literate pilots from third world countries? I mean its going to do that with its maintenance isn't it? At least that is what is threatened.

Furthermore, Feynemans appendix to the Challenger report explains both the attractiveness of this approach to management as well as it's perils.

It's a bit like what happened to Ansett. The business was gutted of maintenance planning professionals and it took about five years, by my calculations, before the damage finally became apparent.

[Iakklat]

Sunfish what absolute rubbish regarding J* recruiting foreign pilots with broken english.There are many HIGHLY QUALIFIED AUSTRALIANS with a multitude of airbus experience and jet experience in my part of the world who are very interested in joining J* INTL.
To advertise in Asia and the Middle East was to directly target airlines such as EK,CX and KA where there are many AUSTRALIANS working for very reputable carriers in the region.
To tarnish the intent of the advertisement is laughable.
I would much rather have my family sit down the back of an airbus with a experienced airbus crew from this part of the region when shooting a ILS in Typhoon weather or dealing with poor ATC in south east asia.
The OVERWHELMING majority of second officers joining QF have minimal experience on a global scale and would barely qualify for a job in the darkest corners of the globe with a marginal contract company.
As to QF safety record, directly attributing this to the almighty skill and financial demands of the QF pilot group, i just fall of my chair laughing in how naive you all really are down there.

[EPIRB]

I think you would be rather surprised when you saw the qualifications of many Qantas second officers.

[B A Lert]

I think you would be rather surprised when you saw the qualifications of many Qantas second officers.

Please explain EPIRB!

[blueloo]

As to QF safety record, directly attributing this to the almighty skill and financial demands of the QF pilot group, i just fall of my chair laughing in how naive you all really are down there.

As a matter of interest, who would you like to attribute it to? The Air China Pilots Association?

Regardless of what you think about QF pilots, someone at QF, be it the pilots, engineers, Cabin Crew, or the training department - someone at the coal face is responsible for the fairly good record of safety.

[EPIRB]

B A Lert, what I was saying was that there are many Qantas Second Officers with with more experience than some Qantas captains. A substantial amount have (pre Qantas) jet time including wide body command hours.

[The_Equaliser]

Iakklat,
So now pilots from your region are the only ones we should trust! I would love to know on what basis this assertion is made. I'll stick with the fact that major airlines worldwide value the skill and training of Australian pilots in general
As for QF experience levels another furphy. Most guys have substantial time before joining and with commands taking minimum 15 years have substantial time up at that point to. A lot more than a lot of my mates at EK and KA had when they got their commands!!!

[Iakklat]

Equaliser you have to be kidding me right.
No there isnt a SUBSTANTIAL amount of second officers that have significant jet experience that have joined QANTAS and certainly EPIRB THE MAJORITY didnt have widebody experience let alone fly a commercial airline jet prior to joining QF. Again i am talking about a MAJORITY.
The exception to the jet experience is the ex Ansett guys who were unfortunate enough to score a job as a second officer.
I have never said that aircrew from my part of the region are the only ones we should trust ,when in fact , a vast majority of commanders in my part of the region are AUSTRALIANS and from other "respectable" aviation countries such as the UK and Canada.
The age versus experience level of guys overseas currently interested in a AIRBUS command with J* INTL far exceeds anything that QF mainline can offer from interested second officers and first officers, especially in terms of AIRBUS and experience in the south east asian region verbatim!!!
I am tired of hearing this propoganda dribble from the mainline pilot group that J* Intl will be recruiting non english speaking,marginal standard aircrew from third world airlines from around the world. Hardly the case given the overwhelming response to J* Intls recent advertisement for experienced A330 and A320 crews.
When running a business, like Mr Joyce, naturally you want to employ the most qualified people in the marketforce that are interested, and believe it or not, that is exactly what he is going to do!!

[Jetsbest]

I haven't gone through all the threads with a fine tooth comb but I believe it was Sunfish who first implied that "J* Intl will be recruiting non english speaking,marginal standard aircrew from third world airlines", not "the mainline pilot group". I don't believe it's the majority view of mainline pilots, or AIPA for that matter, that the J*Int recruits are sub-standard. What is frustrating the QF pilots is that;

- despite QF having a repututation for VERY picky criteria for its pilots (yes, arguably pointlessly so given the proficiency of many rejected candidates), and

- despite its enviable, and very marketable reputation, and

- despite many of QF's staff having the opportunity and potential to work elsewhere in the past but choosing the pay discount to stay in Oz, and

- despite being one of the most profitable airlines in the world at present thanks in large part to the workforce it has had to date, and

- despite having, to date, a very compliant pilot group whose contracts allow some 'world's best practice' crewing complements and pay for long-haul operations and 'world's best practice' contract flexibilities, pay and annual limits in Short-haul operations, and

- despite all its staff 'playing by the rules' and, in the case of pilots, gaining experience under the contract rules until promotional opportunities arise in accord with existing agreements,

Qantas management has given the distinct impression that it was all for nought!

When an opportunity has arisen to circumvent existing staff rather than be open, inclusive and honest, they've taken the easy road and are trying to burn their own. When justifying this course they have used half-truths, part-truths and convenient spin to try to bolster their arguments. When their constant mantra is cost-cutting due to fuel price rises there is NO evidence that their own belts are being tightened too or that "we're all in this together people". (Their bonuses are evidently too valuable for that level of commitment) When targeting savings there seems to be NO accountability or explanation for expensive drains on the 'QF group' like J* Asia.

The staff are not fools. They can see J* using QF fuel hedging, QF purchasing power for new aircraft, QF engineering assistance, QF airport facilities, QF simulators and training facilities, QF jets, recent pilots recruited through the QF system, and even the QF reputation! Yet J* is actively seeking to exclude 'pollution' from mainline, and the criteria preclude even most regional pilots from other parts of the QF group from applying.

In QF's double-speak, "world's best practice" means "cheaper than QF", "employee engagement" means "they're not leaving so hit 'em harder", and the phrase "we value our people" is followed in action by a muttered "unless we can avoid dealing with them". The examples of profitable airlines like Southwest (lower management pay than QF but higher staff pay) are completely overlooked when convenient.

For me, that about sums it up, and I wish it weren't that way. I know most of my work-mates are practical, proficient, flexible individuals who have helped get QF where it is today and aspire to a long, innovative and prosperous career in aviation, preferably with QF. It's just that I am underwhelmed by the deplorable leadership and poor communication I have observed. I just hope it gets better soon.

[Chris Higgins]

So Takklat. when do you start class at Jetstar?

[Sunfish]

There is another post on another thread that talks about Qantas's "De-Australianisation" strategy. I stand by what I said. The current Qantas management appetite for lower and lower costs will never be satisfied, so yes, one day it will be third world pilots with broken English.

On a slightly different note, If you want to do anything about your terms and conditions, apart from continually whine, you are going to have to attack the Qantas BRAND and state that it is no longer "the spirit of Australia", unless it is manned by Australians.

[757manipulator]

I worry about flying with pilots who are not born here or trained here. It's bad enough in the circuit at YMMB on some days trying to hear what someone is trying to say, and knowing, that if he cannot work out what to say he is going to say nothing at all because that is the culture he grew up in.

Yeah I feel a warm feeling sitting in QF business...when on finals into BKK:hmm:

Wake up and smell the VB guys..when are you going to realise that aviation is a GLOBAL market? there are far and away more Aussies flying in more crowded..more complex..and more profitable skies than many of you on here can even contemplate.

Jet* are just trying to capitalise on this..they have a cost of doing business..and want to make a profit. End of story..if you dont want the job dont take it:ok:
And in case nobody else has actually noticed, the ranks of experienced narrow and wide-body crews..are VERY VERY thin....hence some of the latest EK offers;)

[murgatroid]

Anbody considering a DEC with J* should carefully consider the following clauses in the J* agreement.

"Such pilots will be issued a seniority number below all existing pilots on the seniority list in order of start date"

"Such pilots will be employed as a full time First Officer but may be transferred on a temporary basis for a fixed period as Captain during the implementation period of any new aircraft type. The term will normally not exceed two years with the exception of the A330 interim aircraft which may be three years. The company will consult the Jetstar Pilots Council about extensions beyond these periods."

So all the Airbus command time in the world isn't going to matter a single bit when you get booted back to F/O status. Think you'll get a 787 command, think again, there is 150-200 F/O's waiting ahead of you.

[LookinDown]

Jetsbest,
There has been a mass of postings on this forum re the vagaries of QF’s industrial relations record of the past decade. Most of them allude to some of the points you make but none sum up the dominant perception of the majority of its employees and a growing proportion of the general public as succinctly as you have. Thanks for that.

Sunfish is right however in that if any recognition and acceptance of the corporate knowledge and value of current employees was ever going to happen, it would have by now. The fact that QF are trading and profiting on and from the very nationalism that management practices and planning are undermining is the only chink in the armour. The trouble is that such a strategy carries the real risk of self harm and this is why management are confident the odds are in their favour.

[Gnadenburg]

Murgatroid

J* pilots will do what they are told- without much bullying from management. J* pilots are being used to bust QF pilots and expat pilots will eventually be used to bust seniority and any significant inflationary wage pressures.

Professional mobility will be the catch cry amongst pilots in this new and emerging playing field. Experienced and type endorsed captains will dance between airline jobs as suits. Come home to Australia for a few years, go abroad for a few years etc etc.

No such professional mobility is available to QF F/O's.

[Datum]

Jetsbest,

Very well said....

I have read about a number of famously successful generals 'dividing and conquering' enemy armies. However, I have never heard of a general who has achieved success by 'dividing and conquering' his own.

This approach is destined to fail... Some may see it as good business acumen....they need to look beyond the numerals and figures indicative of the short term report card. Valued and engaged staff members have been and always will be the key to success in such a competitive service industry.

The Board of Directors and shareholders must wake up and quickly, before the company and brand are damaged beyond repair.

[OBNO]

If you think Jetstar are after the most "qualified", "experienced", "safest", you're all kidding yourselves. They are after only one thing - THE CHEAPEST!

[Vorsicht]

You are quite correct. It just so happens that at the moment they will get cheap pilots who compare very favourable in the "qualified, experienced, safest" categories with those in Australia that at present cost a lot more.

Having said that, I would wager that there is probably no one in Qantas who can deliver the amount of experience on the 330 that O/S based Australians can.

[Mud Skipper]

Vorsicht,

Latest news is very few, ie not enough, O/S Australian A330 crews are interested. A few desperate Emirates drivers and that’s it. 10 year Dragon A330 Captain was told he would have to come as an F/O, pay for J* endorsement, 3 years cr@p pay then pay for 787 F/O endorsement if he was kept on. Believe he hung up before more of the deal was explained.

From what is being offered you could only say the whole O/S vacancy advertising exercise was a fishing expedition with no bait. The sole purpose was to further put the wind up J* & Qantas pilots so as to lower their expectations.

This could have indeed been successful with the latest rumour doing the office of some QF A330 F/O’s putting an offer to QF/J* to crew the aircraft as Captains on a deal not dissimilar, but slightly less, than AO conditions. J* pilots would take the right seat to build experience for the 787 operations when these pilots would return to mainline. Apparently, given the time limits now on J*management, this offer is a front runner and perhaps what the mechanics of these machinations have had planned all along.

All will be clear in a few months, may the shaftings continue. :}

[Vorsicht]

I see your point. There is no doubt the O/S adds were a fishing expo.
The management are quite rightly checking all over the world to try and find what the lowest possible package is that they can offer and still crew the aircraft. Obviously if they had a deluge of people taking up the offer, it would suggest the package was too high.

If i were them, i would start way too low and move up until i get the guys i need, that way you are sure you are paying the min required.

I still think though that all they would have to do is take away the cr@p about going back to F/O in two or three years and they would probably get the guys they need.

J* seem to be trying a new angle. i.e trying to get DEC but without unduly influencing the seniority system. In my opinion proper seniority systems are pretty much dead in the water, and rightly so. They are probably the single biggest hurdle to pilot conditions. If we were all free to chase the best conditions without being penalised by seniority, i believe that we would be able to force the conditions to improve. Simply because there would be no penalty to switch jobs as there is now. Sure seniority is good for the senior guys in majors provided you are near the top. Ask a guy who is mid on the list at a US major. He has probably been downgraded to F/O and can't leave because he risks going to the bottom of someone elses list. He can however come to the ME as a DEC. Which do you think is better?

[fistfokker]

MS Your Dragon A330 mate must have misunderstood or making something up. He comes already A330 endorsed therefore no endorsement cost. Transfer to B787 at Company expense (says so in agreement) The only impediment is his assessment of pay and conditions and whether or not likely to retain Command after 3 years.

The ideal candidate is somebody already endorsed A320 or 330 approaching retirement who would like to work out of Oz for the last couple of years and fade gracefully away.

I suspect many of the large number of applicants are not aware of the 3 year command deal.

[max AB]

I'm in the LHS of the 330 for EK. I think of nothing more than coming back to OZ, but under the J* terms with the chance of a pay cut and back to the RHS.....there is no way. Sure, My mates talk about it over a beer, but I don't know more than a half dozen who are seriously thinking about it and some of them are a few years from retirement anyway. I wouldn't panic about the masses returning from here. (Unless I don't have many mates...)

[Mud Skipper]

Max AoB,

I wouldn't panic about the masses returning from here.

I don't believe that was ever their true interest, yes they would have been happy to get 40 A330 Captains on a dirt cheap deal but I know their(J*/QF management) not so naive. Those applying have been wasting their time as this was primarily an exercise in conditioning the local workforce.

Fistfokker, you sound like you work for those Industry Fokkers. I was just recounting what I was told and NO I don't believe my mate was misunderstood. Perhaps he sounded too keen so they threw in the bit about comming on as an F/O and having to buy an endorsement just to discourage him. As for what's said in some agreement with the JPC, people without honour shouldn't expect much in return, any such agreement is not worth the paper it's written on until after it's been honoured.

I suspect many of the large number of applicants are not aware of the 3 year command deal.

This is a "deal" only self serving delusional JPC members understand, for the rest, 3 years would be the time it takes to get enough command hours to get a real job on real conditions with a decent employer.

OBNO

They are after only one thing - THE CHEAPEST!

What they don't seem to realize is that cheapest should include a pilots total operation not just his wage. The cost of fuel is very topical at the moment so consider this;
The average QF pilot operates 800 hrs a year at around 5000kg/hr = 4000000kg
4000000kg/0.78 = 5128205 ltrs
5128205 ltrs * AUD$0.68 per ltr = $3487179 Say 3.5 Million AUD
Operating technique could vary this amount by several percent but even at just one percent it adds up to 35K dollars per annum.
Alternately, consider 800 hrs per annum with an average sector of 5 hours = 160 sectors. A measly 200 kg per sector saving/loss would equal 32000 kg (41025 ltrs) of fuel which is worth about 28K per annun.
Most sectors we currently fly on the A330 we are able to burn 1000 to 1500kg less than flight plan, 140K-210K saving per annum.
Lots of numbers but that's the name of the game, it's not just what you pay a pilot which makes him cheap.

Vorsicht,

You wouldn’t go to the cheapest dentist or car mechanic because they often cost a lot more and cause more pain, same deal with pilots.
As for seniority I mostly agree, it is a big hurdle to pilot conditions. Whilst management would like the benefits of hiring & firing at will, they also know seniority is a major draw card in retaining qualified pilots in which they have invested millions of dollars. The prospect of working for an operation without seniority would be akin to working in a gay whore house, you’d have to take it up the Kyber to get on, I think many of us have seen such situations in GA, not fun.

I'll hold my bet on;

QF A330 F/O’s putting an offer to QF/J* to crew the aircraft as Captains on a deal not dissimilar, but slightly less, than AO conditions

Anyone raise?

[International Trader]

This is what they are hoping for to start the house of cards falling.
QF F/os to break rank and take a command for less than they are earning at present.That will sound the death nell for the QF body.

As for foreign (read: ex An /TAA pilots, remember them?,who have been working overseas ) , there are at least 2 already there and more comming.
Hurry, hurry QF F/Os, better get an offer on the table but, quick.
I think that getting over qualifications and experience hurdle will probably be a major problem for QF F/Os.

As for the "operating techniques vs fuel" saving mumbo jumbo, are you suggesting that QF pilots have learned so much about operting 330s in the short time they have had them that they know more than other operators?
All operators that I know just seem to follow the book.Airbus know best in all cases. The fuel saving on sectors is more to do with the variation of your flight planning system ( it's limitations 0compared with actual burns and tracking than operating techniques.

[Eagleman]

Quote from Murgatroid

"So all the Airbus command time in the world isn't going to matter a single bit when you get booted back to F/O status. Think you'll get a 787 command, think again, there is 150-200 F/O's waiting ahead of you."

Murgatroid, you must be the most naive bloke about. JQ does not and will not respect seniority. The JPC gave seniority away in JQ a long time ago. AJ will move all his pilots to AWA's to avoid it. And, he will get away with it. Why? cause seniority is illegal. AND he has promised GD that he will deliver AWA first in the QF group. Don't believe me? ask the Head of People and see if he gives you a straight answer. He certainly couldn't when I asked him. In fact his avoidance of the question would have done Downer proud!

[rescue 1]

Eagleman, Jetstar will not be the first with AWA's...I hope that he [AJ] did not bet the family farm.

[murgatroid]

Eagleman,

Think what you may about what will and will not happen in the future.

The simple fact is that if you join J* today as DEC, you join as an F/O and that "temporary command" clause is what you sign up to. If you don't believe me - phone them yourself.

You may be lucky in the future, you may not. But the real question is, do you give away your command somewhere else to take the current deal? Some will, some won't.

Also, an AWA to look forward to can make things a lot worse yourself - DEC or not, seniority or not. Some people better be careful what they wish for or what they sign up for!

Finally, AJ is starting to find out what the big wide world is all about when you're not under the super protective environment of big brother QF - ala J* Asia. J* Int will be not much different and is a big gamble. The board will only let either bleed so much then bye bye AJ, bye bye GD.

[radnav]

Hey Mud Skipper,

for the rest, 3 years would be the time it takes to get enough command hours to get a real job on real conditions with a decent employer.


.....and just where would that be, what do you have in mind?

I certainly hope your not suggesting Australian J*/QF pilots taking Direct Entry Commands over F/Os at other airlines who don't respect seniority. :yuk:

[ur2]

A Mate has just shown me the allocations for the A330's for J* Int, ie the assignments from the A320 to Wide body.
Almost all vacancies have been filled from within. Won't be many outsiders in this first batch by the look of it.
So much for the hoards of expats.

[propaganda]

If that's the case then J* will still have to fill a seat:cool:

[757manipulator]

Most sectors we currently fly on the A330 we are able to burn 1000 to 1500kg less than flight plan, 140K-210K saving per annum.


All that tells me is that the QF flight planning department need a new flight planning system!
We usually get within 250-350kg on our Boeing and Airbus fleets:ok:

[Eagleman]

Murgatroid

The promise AJ made to all the JQ current F/O's was that they would have commands by the end of 2006.

This promise was based on current JQ pilots moving to the 330. So far the interest has been deafening in its absence. So DECs are introduced for the the start up - 2 years. Are you happy to wait another two years for a command on the promise of a bullying little irishman! Seriously, this guy has no respect for the pilot group. And that is not going to change.

All your current management pilots are DECs. Are they going to revert to F/O staus in four months time? No mate they wont. And will you get by-pass. No mate, they are mangagement pilots and by-pass doesn't apply to them.

As I said, I think you are a little naive. Having said that mate, I hope for the sake of a lot of bloody good lads, that I am proved wrong.

[cartexchange]

Hey Eagle man
On the QF cabin crew discussions you posted this comment.

You don't have to work in the industry you know!
well err, take your own advice!

Um ever heard of the word hypocrite!

[B A Lert]

Give up Cart Exchange. There's nothing hypocritical about Eagleman's views. Don't you realise that it's much easier for meal chuckers to find jobs elsewhere than pilots? After all, unlike professional pilots, you don't outlay tens of thousands of dollars and years of your life training to get a job as a FA. Instead, you have a couple of inerviews, six weeks of brain dead training and you're away. Not that simple for your colleagues in the pointy end. Equally, not that simple for them to go elsewhere as it is for your lot.

[cartexchange]

BA lert
Its good to see one of your informative posts again, you must be such a joy to work with.
Thanks for that insight!
I'm sure your fellow pilots all agree with you comments, and we will be sure to support the pilots as much as we can industrially!
Your comments go a long way in fostering unity amongst us!

[OCCR]

BA lert
Oh I see, interesting point!
You have just confirmed what Geoff and everyone knows! Its going to be mighty hard for the drivers to get another job, you have only been trained for one thing therefore you will settle for anything they put on the table!
Others in the industry have a choice, Bend over or Go!
I think the drivers will have to bend over, but this time there will be no KY!

[Bad Adventures]

Love your work OCCR! but you never know there may be some KY provided, from the new J* pilots of course!! After all, they’ll the ones doing the driving! :} :}

[ACARS747]

Well well.... why am I not surprised at the arrogance shown on this thread by the self serving Qantas Tech crew.
The Jet star Boys are finally teaching you brats some humility.
As someone else posted here,YOU aren't trained for anything else,its all you know! easier for management to reduce your wages to your true value.
Remember natures law, if you don't diversify you wont survive,you don't adapt you will become extinct.
You arrogance over the years has finally come to fruition,your disdain for other QF employees and other Pilots from other airlines has built an in credible lack of respect!
Even now in your most desperate hours all you can do is denigrate other employees profession.
Jet star boys, believe me there are a lot of QF employees that welcome you.

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

Somebody has a chip on his shoulder. I think he might have missed out on getting into Qantas. And no, I don't fly for Qantas, I missed out too.

[Keg]

Geez some people have some pent up agro against QF drivers. I wonder how much all these people contribute to the national heart attack statistics. Given that the majority of comments on PPRUNE by the QF drivers such as Borg, myself, Sopwith Pup (where has he gone by the way), Transition Layer and others has generally acknowledged that QF drivers don't consider themselves any 'better' than anyone else. I'm stuffed if I understand why people are so quick to want to tear us down! My sources suggest that a percentage of those on this forum who proclaim to be QF drivers and carry on like pork chops are not in fact QF drivers at all.

The other thing I find amazing is what EBD alludes to is the desire to see the 'tall poppy' (pay and conditions folks, I'm not assuming any airs and graces about skill! :rolleyes: ) taken down a peg. Very sad.

Finally, the thing that most amazes me is the lack of thought put into the insults. I mean surely you can come up with a better insult than 'brats' and calling us 'arrogant' Acars747? Surely that's not your best effort! If it is then you wouldn't cut it on a QF flight deck. You need to be FAR more insulting than that to survive. The next thing you'll be trying is 'I know you are but what am I?' Seriously, you need to do some work and step it up from the second class level you're at. I know some Collingwood supporters, they may help; most of them reached third grade (most of them probably did it three or four times! :p ). Failing that, I'll give you the contact number for the Barmy Army. They seem to know how to think up a half decent insult! :E

[B A Lert]

Poor old Keg is really scraping the bottom of the barrell. Fancy casting aspersions on the followers and supporters of one of Australia's greatest sporting clubs! Does he realise that Aussie Rules cuts across ecery socio-economic group in the country, unlike Rugby Union, Rugby League or Soccer? By comparing them with some of the tossers here, he has insulted some of the country's finest and best.

Carn the 'pies.:ok: :ok:

[qcc2]

its great to see you are living in a sheltered world. just make sure you clean the glass once in a while so you see a little whats going on in the real world.:E

[Keg]

Carn the 'pies.:ok: :ok:

Now that explains EVERYTHING!!! :p

Please don't misinterpret my comments as a sledge against the fine followers of the great game. I'm a 24 1/2 year long suffering veteran of the 'ugly ducklings' that finally took flight last year- even umpired the little league games in '85-'87. I just felt that ACARS767 needed some real lessons in how to hurl insults and who better to learn from than a Pies supporter! :ok: :p

[B A Lert]

Hey Keg. Let's review things at around 2230EST on Saturday 24th June 2006!:ok:

[Pete Conrad]

ACARS747 sounds like one of those Impulse 1900/717 drivers that live in their sheltered little enclave in Jetstar. The same guys that loath and backstab the ex Ansett guys for wanting to raise the bar and improve the standard at Jetstar, knowing full well that the next sim they do, may be a bit harder and out of the protective realm of their Impulse buddies.

The only thing the Jetstar "boys" can teach the rest of the Qantas group, or industry in general is how to be an Aero Club operating Jets and how to sell yourself out from poor advice and pressure from management and the JPC.

[ACARS747]

QF Drivers!
Well you have proven my point the arrongance shown here has even surpassed what I thought you were capable of.
Everyone else in the industry is just so inferior.....eh?

now come on Ex ansett wanting to raise the bar! are you serious conrad?

your day will soon arrive!

I wonder what humble pie will taste like, even better will you lot be able to afford it!
Time to budget for it

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

Geez, what a wanka. There's a serious chip on ACARS 747 shoulder.

[Gnadenburg]

Nice wind up. :8

[cunninglinguist]

Sorry all, have to agree with Acars, Pete has been smoking crack again.
Raising the bar, for some of the post 89ers, would be a pretty tall order considering some of them could'nt pass a command check pre 89, what was that about an aero club Pete :confused:

[Mr.Buzzy]

Go Pies!

bbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbzzzzhotpies!zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzz

[Sopwith Pup]

Keg

I'm still here just reading the posts, I agree with your latest, must try to get together for a beer sometime but unfortunately I can't get to fatties these days! :ugh:

[Agent Mulder]

On or around the 24th of May Qantas will be making an announcement which will cause a great deal of concern to the Mainline flight crew body.

Dare I say it will be the greatest test ever of the solidarity of Qantas' Pilots as they scramble to save their bacon. You are about to learn just how much those senior brothers really care.:yuk:

[Bolty McBolt]

Mulder

That announcment wouldn't have anything to do with the 747 classics being parked/moth balled?????

You heard it here first.
What will become of the classic tech crew?

[DirectAnywhere]

So what's the rumour Mulder? That post isn't worth the electrons it's chewed up to show on my screen.

Bolty, if that's true, and it's the first I've heard, under the current EBA, which QF can't touch, pilots will have to be retrained to other fleets. The Flight Engineers will generally be made redundant - although some of them have to be offered other jobs (including flying jobs if they've got a reserved seniority number) - and most of the F/Es who've taken redundancy packages have cleaned up to the tune of about 300-400k.

[Bolty McBolt]

Its true or at the very least a concept that is being entertained in a very serious manner.

If they retrain the tech crew which fleet has room to accept these displaced guys? 767 perhaps???

[DirectAnywhere]

Depends on their seniority and where they bid to go. Senior crew would presumably go the -400, midrange crew to the Airbus and junior crew inevitably to the 767. I'd be very surprised - for now - if the Classics go due to capacity constraints ie. they haven't got enough aeroplanes as it is.

I'd like to know what Mulder's rumour is but his post is so cryptic it's really of no value.

[Agent Mulder]

Look deeper and you will find the answers.

It is naive in the extreme to believe that there will be a massive retraining program in the event of redundancies. If the downturn is on a "senior type", I believe no one on a "junior type" will allow themselves to be demoted but will make arrangements to keep their current position.

The new laws state that people employed by companies with more than 100 staff keep right to claim unfair dismissal, but workers in large companies are not safe either. Employees will not be regarded as unfairly dismissed if employers state their sacking was for "operational reasons."

"Operational reasons" is quite a broad term an IMHO would include massive retraining costs at a time of financial difficulty for a business.

[Dropt McGutz]

Could he be insinuating there may be redundancies on the Airbus fleet? That would make a mockery of the recently released pilot employment figures.

[Veruka Salt]

There won't be redundancies on the Airbus fleet. Sure, a surplus may be declared, but in that instance guys will either move up onto the -400 or A380 if they have the seniority, otherwise they will be accommodated on the 737 or 767.

The only place redundancies could/may occur would be to push guys/girls out the bottom of the seniority list. Obviously that is confined to S/Os . . .

More than likely though they would be offered leave of absence instead of outright redundancy.

[rammel]

Don't know all the details, but could any potential excess SO's be offered a transfer to Jetstar eg: under the new ir laws. I know all this is rumour, but this is just a thought.

[Veruka Salt]

Rammel,
Sounds feasible, but I can see a couple of obstacles. . .
Firstly, not all S/Os (cadets, for example) would meet the experience criteria for Jetstar. Admittedly though, Impulse had a handful of cadets, some of whom are still flying for Jetstar. Obviously the experience requirements can be waived at company's discretion. :hmm:
Secondly, the whole buy-your-own-endorsement thingy, requiring the affected Pilots to buy their own endorsement and take a 50 percent paycut for the privilege. :sad:

[Bolty McBolt]

Why is it that the pilots cannot be made redundant for operational reasons? :ugh:

If a type is retired eg 747 classic would it not be perfect grounds for CR...

[Agent Mulder]

Brought forward to 22nd May.

Interesting situation with possible redundancies and the new "Age 65" FSO. Again, you will now see what the "senior members" will do for you.

Bolty,

You can now be dismissed for "operational reasons" not made redundant. Big difference!

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Simple answer is that VR or CR must be offered in order of seniority or assigned from the bottom. That is not type specific, that is the whole pilot list.

So to offer VR on the classic, QF would have to offer it to senior -400 captains (who are not in surplus) first, then train their replacements. OR assign it to the most junior S/O's (who are also not in surplus) and then fund a massive retraining effort for all displaced aircrew.

You can see why it would be the option of last choice.

[Agent Mulder]

Are you sure?

[Bolty McBolt]

Mulder...You are correct about being dismissed for ops reasons but I think (hope) QF will do the right thing and pay redundancies

Borg I think you may be very aware of what is stated in your EBA but did you not notice what has happened in engineering. They "retired/closed" a hangar and all the staff in it are now redundant. EBA or not these guys are gone
Many LAMEs have applied for the redundancy from other sections but are denied because of specific qualifications they have which cannot be replaced without training a replacement. Training = time and cost..VR denied.
What do the pilots have stop this sort of routing??
Solidarity? Looks like this is to be tested

Another point...is there anything stopping QF from employing new pilots on a different conditions via an AWA?

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Another point...is there anything stopping QF from employing new pilots on a different conditions via an AWA?

As of Mar 27, nothing.

[rescue 1]

...new pilots on a different conditions via an AWA?

I'd watch closely; you may find AWA's closer than you think.

[gliderboy]

The phone calls to overseas pilots who have applied are starting. I wonder how many will accept the interview after listening to the conditions offered!

Gliderboy

[AIR WARREN]

The Senior Guys will no doubt look after one thing and one thing only...........themselves,so don't expect any sympathy from the greedy tools!! :eek:

[woodja51]

Anbody considering a DEC with J* should carefully consider the following clauses in the J* agreement.

"Such pilots will be issued a seniority number below all existing pilots on the seniority list in order of start date"

"Such pilots will be employed as a full time First Officer but may be transferred on a temporary basis for a fixed period as Captain during the implementation period of any new aircraft type. The term will normally not exceed two years with the exception of the A330 interim aircraft which may be three years. The company will consult the Jetstar Pilots Council about extensions beyond these periods."

So all the Airbus command time in the world isn't going to matter a single bit when you get booted back to F/O status. Think you'll get a 787 command, think again, there is 150-200 F/O's waiting ahead of you.

M, you might be right - but it wont take a rocket scientist to realise if they have 100 aircraft coming that there will be slots for every one anyway.

Remember the EBA expires about the time the 787 is due for introduction so I am sure the guys that come as DECs will have input into the new one (and will probably be in management by then too if selection is experienced and qualification based). There is also a clause that says they can promote out of seniority to managment positions - easy to create jobs to keep the DECs if they so choose.Thats what I would do if I was running the company.

I met a QF 76 captain the other day who earnt 290k AUD last year compared to my xxxK AUD (tax free of course!) I am one of the 780?? Ozzies coming for a look and I reckon the package is do-able (and having 7 years of tax credits helps!).Pilots (especially QF!)are a costly commodity- just like oil and fuel -which they try (and we approve of) reduce costs by hedging. This is no different. To delude ourselves that managers consider us anything more - or less is overstating our importance to the organisation. Cheers:ok:

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

290K for a 767 Captain?!!?

He must be a SCC because the line pilots don't get anything near that.

[RaTa]

"I met a QF 76 captain the other day who earnt 290k AUD last year"

What a load of horse sh*t, that is about 1550 credit hours which is not possible on the 767. Even a SCC would be at least 40K short of that.

[ruprecht]

Haven't QF been trying to kill the Classic for the last 15 years? This thing must have more lives than Jason from Friday the 13th. 460 pax to Narita last week would suggest that it's an awful lot of capacity to lose without a replacement.

ruprecht.

[Jimothy]

Woodja ....."but it won't take a rocket scientist to realise if they have 100 aircraft coming that there will be slots for every one anyway." 100 aircraft coming , where did that figure come from?

You may be happy with the pay, however, hope you have considered the rest of the conditions eg. days off per roster period.

Afraid I don't share your enthusiasm that because you are experienced and qualified they will be handing out management postions to keep you on as DEC's. Pretty sure any management roles are a closed shop.

[rescue 1]

Last time I checked an AO B767 average Captain made AUD235000 (all up)

[RaTa]

That $235K would include all meal allowances and superanuation.

[Bazzamundi]

The figures some of you people claim that QF pilots earn is ridiculous. It seems they must take the most senior management pilot figures for a particular rank, add a multiple of at least 10%, and claim that is what all Qantas pilots earn.

Line 767 Captains are not on $290 P/A. Why do you think a lot of people stay as F/O's on the 400? Because they will not get much of a pay rise by jumping through all the hoops to become a Captain on the 767 or 737. And 400 F/O's are not earning $290K. Only Captains who are permanant pattern are. There are still plenty of Captains in Qantas earning less than 200K.

Aviation in Australia would be done a favour if people would not justify arguing for lower conditions based on the fact QF pilots are overpaid because Joe Blow has invented a figure of how much they earn.

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

Bazza, it is the politics of envy. I think there are some posters who like to post there assumptions, for that is all they are, in the hope that the media picks up on it as they know the media troll PPRUNE.
Who gives a stuff? So what if you didn't get into Qantas or dislike the company? You wouldn't be the first. I missed out but certainly don't harbour a big chip on my shoulder. So what? It is rather apparent that some people who contibute to this forum have personality defects and one can only assume that the QF psych test pick up these defincies.
Good luck to the Qantas blokes for having such enviable conditions.

[Bazzamundi]

EBD, I agree with you 100%. Seems it is mainly people trying to make the QF mainline drivers seem like they are solely responsible for the downwards spiral in conditions due to excessive greed. In order to justify the argument, they are dreaming up arguments and pay figures. It all comes back to people missing out, and people getting to speak to the vocal minority of egotistical tosser QF pilots who seem to think they are a cut above the rest (and probably tell people they earn more than what they really do to feel more important). What people don't understand is that these people are in a minority (like in any group of people - no airline is exempt from employing wankers), and the majority of us QF drivers would fit in anywhere and are dare I say it, are probably decent blokes. Just don't judge us all on the expressions of a few.

QF pilots are among the cheapest and most productive in the Western world. Compare our wages to BA, United, Cathay, etc., and you find we are very competitive. However, I think this country should be pushing for Jetstar and Virgin to be given a pay rise up to current QF levels, not the other way around. To get this to happen, the childish minority on both sides of the fence need to stop hurling insults and stones back and forth and actually try and do something to stop us all being driven eventually from the industry.

Anyhow, enough from me. It is perhaps time this thread died a natural death. I am sure we would all be better off for it. It certainly isn't helping the current situation at all, especially given the amount of crap and misinformation being peddled.

[Mr. Boeing]

Two very good posts.

[Woomera]

I agree...and on that basis let's end on this 'high' point.:D