ATPL(H) or CPL(H)?

[hencloud]

Hi everyone, hoping some of you in the know can help me on this one.

I have instructor rating on my PPL through old system and about 400hours PI.

If I go to the USA to get a Commercial licence will I be able to instruct whilst doing it based on my CAA assisstant instructor rating?

What are USA instructor pay rates like?

Finally if i have no intention of going to the North Sea is an ATPL really necessary?

Thanks in advance.

[cl12pv2s]

Short answer is 'no', you can't give training in the US on a foreign instructor licence. You must have the FAA Instructor rating. This is shown in FAR 61.3(d)(2), 61. 41 and 61.181

Although they cannot be signed off for exams or tests (only an FAA instructor can do this), a pilot in the US can count training done in another country towards the requirements, if the instructor is from a ICAO contracting state.

You can find these references at http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFAR.nsf/ and go and look in Current FARS

Instructor Pay rates range from $15-25 per hour. Not much compared with the UK (especially with the dollar-pound/Euro rates at the moment.)

As far as ATPL, I can't really answer this...I am not the one doing hiring. However, I have stayed away from the 'FROZEN-ATPL' for the reason that if I don't manage to get the IR and Multi-time in 3 years, then I'm stuffed!

I will do that when I know I'm on the IR and Multitime path.

cl12pv2s

[Banjo]

You do not need to get the multi time insinde the 3 years but you will need to pass the IR. Once you have the IR the exams are "frozen" and remain valid for up to 7 years after the expiry of your last IR currency check. In other words as long as you keep the IR current (or up to 7 years after it lapses) you can get the remaining requirements for the ATPL at any time in your future flying.

Grab a copy of LASORS for all the info.

[hencloud]

So in other word it is cheaper and best to get a CPL to fly commercially and upgrade to ATPL if you want to go the North Sea say in 10 years.

[cyclic_fondler]

Currently if you want to upgrade your licence from a CPL to the ATPL then you have to do the whole ATPL course. Hopefully within the next few years, the CAA will have created a CPL(H) course thats appropriate to helicopters and also a way to go from CPL to ATPL without having to do the whole ATPL couse.

well, I am allowed to dream arn't I !!!!

[Martin1234]

At present time CPL + IR theory is sufficient for the issue of an ATPL but that might change in the future.

[Pull2theDroop]

There are other flying requirements as well to get your JAR ATPL(H),as well as CPL and IR rating ,you will also need 100 hours night flying on rotary,350 hours multi engine multi crew i.e superpuma and 100 hours instrument flying, other words you need time on the north sea ! but you would get this as a cojoe, but LASORS should be of use to you, but the JAR do tend to move the goal posts. Hope this is of use. Best of luck

[Darren999]

So, just to confirm, for me anyway. Employers are happy to take you on if you have a CPL (H)? and that you only need an ATPL if you want to go to the North Sea?. How about qualifications to fly HEMS or Police work?. Any help with this one please..

Darren

[Camp Freddie]

To further clarify ATPL not required for north sea for Co-Pilot P2 CPL is good enough, but is required for Command P1.

so worst case you can work on ATPL exams once you are there. as you will have plenty of time on your hands from all those early finishes after those 0600 starts !

regards

CF

[Line_book]

I have seen threads similar to this before, but I am interested in starting it again due to my own circumstances.

I am just starting ATPL GS, distance learning, but have not paid for module 2, and am planning to take about 10 months to complete both modules. I have abot 1000hrs TT (military), mostly twin engine. I will be loking for a job in about 16 months, but do not really know where or what type. My question is this - is it really worth me doing the full ATPL exams or should I just do CPL (H), considering I am not sure if I will be do IR in the 3 yr period after. I am considering tying to apply to some of the larger companies, (CHC), in which case I guess it would be beneficial. My prefered employment would be corporate and or air ambulance type work, then rig work, but I cannot be too picky initially about what I get.

I would be most grateful for any thoughts or advice on the subject.

Thanks

LB

[Whirlygig]

If you don't do the IR within three years, and then later come to do it, you will have to sit 6 exams again. Similarly, if you have CPL(H) theoretical stuff!

Consider whether it would be easier for you to re-learn/revise something you studied three years hence or whether you would want to start studying again from scratch. The ATPL(H) GS is a more expensive route but given your hours and ambitions, it might be the more sensible one.

I've gone for CPL(H) GS but my circumstances are different!

Cheers

Whirls

[rotorfossil]

The real decision at the moment is whether to go to the considerable expense of the instrument rating. At the moment the big companies on the North Sea are saying that they are not interested in recruiting anybody without one as there are sufficient people who are willing to pay for one out of their own pocket. The long term decision problem is that the situation tends to change with amazing speed. At times if you are vertical and breathing with a CPL/H, you are in when there is a panic on. At others-zilch. A month is a long time on the North Sea!

[Line_book]

thanks for your replies.

both good advice. I am wondering reaaly, if I would be limiting myself initially in the job market by not doing the ATPL (H) GS, and then hoping that with a frozen ATPL I can secure a job, and then do an IR (possibly through whichever company I work for). On the other hand, as I understand it, if I do not do IR in the 3 yrs I will have to do the exams again anayway. Is there much work out there with a CPL (H), both in the UK and more probably in the rest of Europe, most likely on twin engine types?

[Stringfellow Dork]

If you compare (in lasors) the privilages of ATPL(H) Vs. CPL(H) (something I am having trouble doing successfully with my currently groggy head) it seems that there something you can do with the former that you cannot do with the latter. Like I said my groggy head is making it difficult to work out exactly what that is though, so if anyone can get their head around the words...

[Line_book]

I think it allows you to be the aircraft captain on a multi crew aircraft. I am not sure what else, but to me that is quite an important factor! Any further thoughts?

[Stringfellow Dork]

I think it allows you to be the aircraft captain on a multi crew aircraft.
That was kind of what I thought (stand to be corrected though).
...quite an important factor!
Probably decides it then. No further thoughts. (I'm just a grommet.)

[topendtorque]

you're a tosser mate, but don't forget your rating in morse code, that will make you a REAL pilot.

[Stringfellow Dork]

Eh? You what?

[topendtorque]

cross thread talk, old jungle saying from engineering days.

[lynx247]

Well done Topendtorque, a completely pathetic and unnecessary comment to a good discussion. Get a life...

Line_book, I'm in exactly the same position as you, although my hours are not military. I'm taking the ATPL(H) theory, hoping that I won't have to pay for an IR(H), and I believe taking the ATPL(H) is probably the best option.

Does anybody have any good advice on getting an IR(H) if you have to pay for it?

[Line_book]

Topendtorque - with responses like that, who do you think the tosser is? A completely unnecessary reply to a valid discussion. If you have anything useful to contribute, please do so. If not take your insecurities somewhere else.

Lynx247 - I have known a few people who have done their IR through CHC. Not sure on the price, but I dont suppose it will be cheap.

[topendtorque]

no worries line book, if you guys have worked out what an ATPL will allow you to do which as stringfellow hinted at y'all sounded a bit confused about, then i'd recommend you check the following

http://www.rotorlift.com.au/

Then B4U say, too far, etc check out the OZ currency here

http://www.xe.com/ucc/

dollar pundits are predicting $AU to go further down from the current US$0.73 quite aways.

The whisper is that they are also doing some NVG stuff, but you can find out for yourself.
have a nice day now.

[lynx247]

Line_book - I'm currently trying to find out how much Bond charge for their IR(H) on the EC135 - you have to take the type rating first though. Even so, I think it will be very very expensive... I will let you know when I receive a reply from them, although I'm not exactly looking forward to reading it!

[rotorfossil]

Last quote I heard from from Bristows at Norwich was £27,000 for an IR-Ouch!

[Line_book]

Topendtorque - ok, sorry for the last reply!
Thanks for your post, it is an interesting website, and looks like a good school. I have spent some time in Oz, flying, and was quite impressed with things. I am based in europe at the moment, so I think JAA is the way ahead for me. I dont need to do any hours building prior to CPL, the CAA will issue it to me on my current type. I am interested in maybe going back to Oz at some time int the future though for shortish periods of time. Do you know how to the CASA view JAA licenses? Also in follow up to Lynx247's last post, do you know if there is any value in doing an IR or any other rating for that matter, in Oz, then going back to the UK to convert it to JAA?

[Martin1234]

One of the requirements in JAR-FCL 1 (fixed-wing) for the issue of an ATPL certificate is valid CPL + IR certificates + valid ATPL theory.

One of the requirements in JAR-FCL 2 (helicopter) for the issue of an ATPL certificate is valid CPL(H) + IR(H) certificates. There is absolutely no requirement in JAR-FCL 2 that you need ATPL theory in any situation. ATPL (H) theory is still just a way of doing CPL + IR theory "at the same time".

I believe, which someone at the UK CAA confirmed, that they just copied the fixed-wing requirements in lasors and put it under the helicopter section as well. I few months ago I e-mailed the CAA about this but still no reply.

They might, however, change the theory requirements in the future but it is likely that "old" CPL + IR theory will still be valid for ATPL certificate issue.

[Line_book]

Thanks Martin. I think you are highlighting the some of the current confusion arising under the JAA rules and regs. Each time I look at the LASORS, I think I can interpret something in a different way to the last time! However, that is what we have to work with. As I see it now, there are not that many places offereing purely a CPL(H) GS (ATPL less IR - please correct me if I am wrong), so it often seems like the logical course of action to do the full ATPL package. What I find a bit hard to grasp is that there appears to be a penalty if you cannot complete the IRE within the time (3yrs). I can understand that there is obvious skills fade, so perhaps that is why you need to retake the exams.

I am leaning toward the view that it is best to do all the exams initially, to give myself 3 yrs to gain the IR, if that does not happen, then retake the exams as and when I need them. If I do not need them, then I will endeavour to continue to operate with just a CPL(H).
I do think this will be situation and circumstance based for each individual. I you are on 250 hrs, probably no point as it might be difficult to get another 1250 hrs and IR in 3 yrs (maybe not).

Thoughts?

[lynx247]

I share exactly the same view as you Line_book. I've thought a lot about this too, and I think getting all the theory out of the way, and quickly, has to be the way to go. If the big companies are suddenly short of pilots, luck may prevail in our favour. If not, I might possibly just about find a way to raise that sort of cash over 3 years, and then take the IR(H) just before my exam credits timeout. At least that's what I'm thinking!

[Martin1234]

Lynx247, I do have the same plan as you with the exception that if I don't find a sponsor, I will probably get my PPL(A) + IR(A) instead. It is much cheaper, it will "save" the IR theory and the IR(A) gives credit towards the IR(H). It will also give me a financial possibility to actually practice some IR-flying since the rent of a Cessna is quite cheap as opposed to a twin-engined helicopter.

On the one hand the ATPL theory under the interim arrangement contains alot of fixed-wing only knowledge as opposed to Dragon helicopters' CPL(H) course. On the other hand there is very good feedback (questions) for the fixed-wing subjects which is of great help if you want to pass those exams.

[lynx247]

Hmmm, yes, that it is definitely worth thinking about Martin1234... do you know if you can cross-credit any previous dual instrument time towards the IR(H)?

[lynx247]

What about taking the Single Engine IR(H) and then a Multi-Engine IR(H) upgrade? This only requires 5hrs and a type-rating (which you would have to do anyway)...

[Martin1234]

do you know if you can cross-credit any previous dual instrument time towards the IR(H)?

Cheack Lasors & JAR-FCL 2. If memory serves me right the holder of a (JAR) IR(A) needs at least 10 hours of instrument training in a helicopter for the IR(H).

What about taking the Single Engine IR(H) and then a Multi-Engine IR(H) upgrade? This only requires 5hrs and a type-rating (which you would have to do anyway)

It shouldn't matter much if you go for the SE or ME IR(H). If you have your SE IR(H) it should be upgraded to ME when you do your type rating check-ride on a multi-engine helicopter.

[Line_book]

Many different ways to skin this cat I think, but I think the general consensus is leaning toward doing all the ATPL theory first. As topendtorque showed it is considerably cheaper to do the IR (H) in Oz, and then do a conversion in the UK, so that is definitely an option. There are also good options to do the same in NZ if you are forced to pay for it yourself. A friend of mine has recently done the fixed wing ATPL(A) (also military rotary), and did most of his fixed wing in the US. There is considerable saving to be had. You can do the majority of the hours there, then come backt to the UK, do the minimum for the conversion (if memory serves - around 5hrs), and then an IR. Slightly complicated though, I reckon, if you want to stay rotary.
Many, many options, and it would be interesting to hear what others have done to skin this particular cat, or what other ways people have heard.

As far as the CPL(H) thoery course - I think it is probably the best idea if you intend to stay within single engine, VFR work. I have heard some good things about Dragon, and their instructors, although I do not know anyone who has done their thoery course. So I think it is worth having a very real idea of where the jobs lie. I would be very interested to hear any opinions on this.

[AirAssault]

Hi All,

I am currently having major dilemas!

I am part way through my PPL in the UK and have up until now been aiming to continue on to my ATPL.

I am now wondering whether I should actually go for my CPLH?!

For me Helicopters are in my blood with several family members having been profesional helicopter pilots but just wanted some broader advice.

My main concern is with regard to job opportunities, as well as salaries etc.

I have had many friends who have trained, and still are training at OAT for their ATPL so know the course as so to speek.

If I were to go the CPLH route I would rather go abroad, potentially Oz to do the course for both financial reasons, but also for the preferential weather!

If anyone has any advice in the matter I would be extremly greatfull!

Cheers.......

[Peter_CDG]

I know exactly what you mean. I have both licenses ( fatpl for aeroplanes and cpl for helicopters ) and
I can tell you, that the helicopter business is harder than the fixed wing business. To find a job you
need experience. Many operators require 1000h flight time. This is caused by the insurance companies.

With 1000h you can apply for a job on Jet Ranger. If you have less than 1000h it's very difficult. Perhaps
you will find a job on a Robinson 22 ( power line control ). You can expect 200 euro per day, if you are
flying on a Jet Ranger and if you are a free lance pilot. As a full time pilot you can normally expect
1500 euro after tax.

For a job on a big ship ( offshore operation ) you'll need ifr. An ifr rating for helicopter is very expansive.

I think, that you should start with a fixed wing atpl. Later, if you found a job, you can still do your cplh by
a bridging course.

[RotorSwede]

I think you should go for the ATPL(H) theory. It's roughly the same price. You'll take a few more classes, but after that you have 3 years to take your IR rating. Let's face it, that's where the money is.

A PPL(A) with IR(A) is a cheaper way to obtain a IR rating, how much it's worth in the heli world is diffrent in diffrent parts of the world I think. That's what I'm gonna do.

best regards

RotorS

[34']

Just want to throw the cat amoungst the pidgeons here. :hmm:

Why not try to enjoy the whole experience each day and try not to stress too much about the future. There seems to be TOO much concern with earning the big bucks and not enough about enjoying why we do this in the first place.

We all know there are large sums of money we have to come up with to do this and most of us have given up all we have, and more, to fly and want to get the most out of our investment....

BUT, and to explain why i say what i say..

..I lost a friend this week in a flight training crash and he was the same as you all worrying about everything. If he knew his time was coming sure as mustard he would have enjoyed his flying more and stressed about the future less.

Now don't take this as 'no need to plan for the future', just try to enjoy todays flight more and the future will happen as it happens...you just need to guide it a little.

34'

[Whirlygig]

The gamble is, will you get your instrument rating within three years? If not, and you did the ATPL(H) exams, you will have to resit 6 for the IR. Or, do the 9 CPL(H) exams, and sit the IR ones, if and when you need to.

The IR route is a big gamble because it costs so much. The safer option is CPL(H) and FI (instructor) in order to build hours.

Try a search as I know this question has been answered many times before; usually quite succinctly by Camp Freddie!

Cheers

Whirls

PS - for what it's worth, I'm doing CPL(H) route as I don't reckon I stand a snowball's chance in hell of getting an IR within three years and I'd quite enjoy being an instructor.

PPS - sorry to hear about your friend 34' - condolences.

[34']

naa..it's all cool Whirls.

I just get a little upset when guys get fully stressed about this whole thing...

Just make sure you enjoy the journey, every minute. I live in a country where some people will never ever get the chance to fly in a helicopter :( and i get to do it every day :D ...it's such a privilege to be able to do this, so make sure you appreciate and enjoy it ;)

..and i'm also doing the instructor route without IR, but instructing is not for everyone afterall. Lets worry about IR later if we have to....

Best of luck to the lads though...:ok:

[Stringfellow Dork]

The gamble is, will you get your instrument rating within three years? If not, and you did the ATPL(H) exams, you will have to resit 6 for the IR. Or, do the 9 CPL(H) exams, and sit the IR ones, if and when you need to.

Another thing to consider, as I understand it (and I am happy to be told otherwise), even if you eventually get an IR to bung onto your CPL(H) you can not be the commander of a multi-crew machine. So if you're thinking about off-shore praps ATPL(H) is the way to go - else you're not going to progress past co-jo (if they are even interested in you)?

More a question than a statement....

[Whirlygig]

There was something about this on Rotorheads recently - that CPL/IR can be considered as ATPL or will be or it's a CAA loophole :confused: .

I'll try and hunt it out but can't guarantee it as sunshine and Chardonnay have the better of me at the moment!

Here_it_is! (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=221761&highlight=atpl) - not as pished as I think I am :ok:

Cheers

Whirls

[Aesir]

JAR-FCL 2.285

The holder of a CPL(H) and IR(H)
satisfies the knowledge requirements for the
issue of an ATPL(H).

I have many friends who have never been through the ATPL theory course and fly now S-61 & Super Puma´s. They did their CPL theory and later IR theory (pre-JAA) and then later converted to JAA certificate and therefore have the right to be issued ATPL certificate when they have the hour requirements and other knowledge requirements fullfilled (MCC course).

Problem is there are not that many IR theory courses available, if any? anyone??

If straight IR theory courses are offered now then I would choose to only do the CPL theory and then do the IR theory and single engine IR when funds permit!

[Heli-Ice]

Whirls

Aesir pointed out maybe one of the best articles found in the JAR bucket of bull.... the good JAR-FCL 2.285.

AA, you should think about it before commencing your training. However I think it is one of the windows into the ATPL theory crediting left for us who got the ticket pre-JAR.

I agree with 34, you should worry less and enjoy your training more.

34 My condolences.

[Aesir]

Here is a school that offers distance learning IR theory.

http://www.luftfartsskolen.no

If anyone is interested in obtaining the IR rating.

[GoodGrief]

I recently received a quote from Eurocopter for an initial JAA-IR(H).
They don´t do single engine unfortunately.

Ground school and 55 hours on BO105 is 76000 Euros, which translates into USD 95000 or pounds 52000.

No, thankx.

[Bravo73]

55 hours on BO105 is pounds 52000.

GGrief,

That actually sounds like quite a good rate for 55hours in a Twin.

Of course though, only a fool (and a rich fool at that) would do the whole course in a Twin. According to LASORS, only 10hrs has to be done in the Twin itself. The rest can be done in a Sim or a fixed-wing(!). (Full answers can be found in LASORS, Section E2).


:ok:

B73

[Martin1234]

I'm glad to hear that the UK CAA accept CPL(H) + IR(H) in lieu of ATPL(H) theory. However, it is not summarised in LASORS as Mr White says but it definately is in JAR-FCL.

Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 08:47:08 +0100
Subject: ATPL(H) theory

"It is a requirement to hold valid JAR ATPL(H) theory credit to qualify for
the grant of a JAR ATPL(H). This can be achieved by passing the JAR ATPL(H)
examinations or by holding a JAR CPL(H)/IR (having passed the JAR CPL(H) and
IR exams). This latter option is summarised under "credits" of the LASORS
section quoted in your original e-mail.

Regards

Simon White
Policy Section
PLD "


"To: <[email protected]>
CC:
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 13:29:26 +0100
Subject: Att: Policy

In accordance with JAR-FCL 2.285;

(...)"The holder of a CPL(H) and IR(H) satisfies the knowledge requirements
for the issue of an ATPL(H)"

However, in Lasors 2006 (page 291 in the PDF file) it says that ATPL(H)
theory credit is among other requirements necessary for the issue of an
ATPL(H), contrary to JAR-FCL.

Is this an error in Lasors? "

[Aesir]

I do not see it as an error.

An CPL & IR is an ATPL theory credit and therefore required for the issue of an ATPL licence!

The Lasors say that ATPL theory credit is required for issue of ATPL licence. We´ll how do you get ATPL theory credit? There are two way´s, either go take the ATPL ground school & exams or provide a CPL with IR! (Single engine IR is sufficient).

However the actual ATPL checkride has to be done in an IFR certified helicopter (or sim) which is usually a twin provided by your employer.

*CORRECTION!! I am in error to say that single engine IR is sufficient for ATPL applicant! What I was thinking about was that an applicant for a multi crew aircraft type rating can do that with single engine IR. I.e. Super Puma co-pilot can naturally do his co-pilot type rating if he has IR single or multi does not matter.

JAR-FCL 2.290 says.
An applicant for an ATPL(H) shall be the
holder of a CPL(H) [ ], a multi-engine instrument
rating (H)

[Martin1234]

Aesir, you are correct apart from that this is not what Lasors states.

Lasors states;

"The holder of a valid JAR-FCL CPL(H)/IR with JAR-FCL ATPL Theory credit will be credited the JAR-FCL ATPL (H) Theoretical knowledge examination for a period of 7 years from the last validity date of the IR (H) entered in the CPL (H)."

It should state;

"The holder of a valid JAR-FCL CPL(H)/IR will be credited the JAR-FCL ATPL (H) Theoretical knowledge examination."

As of today Lasors never state that CPL(H) + IR(H) will give you ATPL theory credit. For example, why mention the 7 year rule if they want you to have a valid CPL(H)/IR(H)? If your IR is valid, it must have been renewed within 7 years (but the ATPL theory exams lapse (which you don't need anyway) if your IR isn't renewed within 7 years).

Note that the exact same wording can be found in Lasors under the fixed-wing requirements. In the fixed-wing world, you do need ATPL theory, contrary to the helicopter world. Since the requirements between fixed-wing and rotary are not the same, the wording in Lasors must be different which it isn't.

[Whirlygig]

I was always led to believe that LASORS was not infallible but that JAR-FCL was!

Cheers

Whirls

[MileHighTrooper]

So bear with me, if I have a cpl-h and a ir-h and I guess a proper number of hours (pic, ir, night, cross-country, etc) I can automatically upgrade to an atpl-h without further exams? Is that so?

[Martin1234]

So bear with me, if I have a cpl-h and a ir-h and I guess a proper number of hours (pic, ir, night, cross-country, etc) I can automatically upgrade to an atpl-h without further exams? Is that so?

If you have a JAR certificate and you do pass the ATPL check-ride, then you are correct. No further theory to read. Bear in mind that you do need some multi-crew hours as well to qualify for a JAR ATPL.

[Stringfellow Dork]

Interesting...Very interesting.

Martin1234 - could you please clear up who the emails quoted above are from/between (I'm guessing yourself and Licensing at CAA).

Ta.

[Martin1234]

Correct.

PM me with your e-mail address if you want a complete copy of the e-mails.

[Stringfellow Dork]

Martin1234 - check your PMs.

Thanks.

[Head Bolt]

I have recently had some communication with the CAA on CPL/IR, and the information sent to me by email confirms that the various previous posts are correct i.e. if you have a CPL and do the IR exams, then you are considered to be at ATPL theory level by the CAA.
This was explained to me on the basis that the IR exams only cover those parts of ATPL theory that are not already covered at CPL level, and thus by combining CPL exams with the cut down IR exams, ATPL theory is achieved.
Martin 1234, there is no ATPL check ride to take, if you have a CPL you have already passed it. What is different is the requirements for issue of the ATPL. It can only be issued after you have accumulated ( I think) 500 hours as P2 on a multi-pilot heli, which you can obtain with a CPL/IR, the key point being that you cannot act as P1 until you have met all requirements and been issued with an ATPL.
Basically JAR licenses have become task oriented - if you do not intend flying as P1 in multi-pilot helicopters, which is either North Sea or SAR, then you do not need an ATPL. A CPL/IR will allow you to do everything else, including P2 in such helis.
Ground Training Services at Bournemouth & Atlantic Flight Training do the IR exams

[Aesir]

Head Bolt. Thanks for the clarification, this has been my understanding and also how it has been explained to me.

In JAR-FCL 2 the multi crew time requirement for issue of ATPL is 350 hrs. I believe its in JAR FCL 2.280 if memory serves. The fixed wing guy's need 500 hrs.

Regarding ATPL checkrides, funnily enough not all authorities are in sync there! The Scandinavian aviation authorities will require ATPL practical checkride where the UK CAA will not. Therefore for example the Danish SLV have issued an information circular that UK CAA ATPL certificates are not approved in Denmark until the license holder has passed an ATPL practical checkride with JAA examiner.

[Head Bolt]

Aesir
Thanks for that.............and I thought JAA was supposed to make things just the same for everybody !!
A pan-European license indeed, what a lot of tosh::hmm:

[Aesir]

I would like to add that FCL 2.295 states that an checkride in a multicrew aircraft is required for issue of an ATPL licence and the test standards are different for CPL or ATPL appendix 2 for 2.240/2.295.

I was wondering at first if the UK CAA simply required CPL applicants to complete their checkrides as per ATPL standards and therefore would not require a second checkride when the CPL holder applies for ATPL license. But that cannot be as the standards are so different as well as requiring the checkride to be done in multi pilot IFR aircraft.

This puzzles me as I am an FE myself and I don´t see where the UK aviation authorities can allow themselves to require less standards than the JAR´s require!?

The UK has signed mutual recognition of JAR-FCL 2 amendment 3. I´m sure there is a good explanation somewhere, but where!

Here is the SLV AIC.

AIC B-57/05. ATPL certifikater udstedt af CAA UK.
Statens Luftfartsvæsen har erfaret, at JAR-FCL ATPL certifikater bliver udstedt af Civil Aviation Authority – UK selvom de krævede
praktiske prøver (Skill Tests) ikke er gennemgået af certifikatindehaveren.
Disse certifikater opfylder derfor ikke kravene i JAR-FCL 1.295 og ICAO Annex 1, Disse krav anfører, at ATPL først må udstedes, når
ansøgeren har bestået ATPL Skill Test.
På denne baggrund må indehavere af ATPL udstedt af CAA UK først udøve certifikatets rettigheder på dansk registrerede luftfartøjer,
når de har dokumenteret, at de har bestået ATPL Skill Test.
Såfremt en sådan dokumentation ikke kan fremvises, skal certifikatindéhaveren bestå en ATPL Skill Test før den pågældende må udøve
rettighederne af sit UK ATPL på dansk registrerede luftfartøjer.
(TC)

[TimBrad]

Dear all, I would be most appreciative of some help. I have a couple of hundred hours flying helicopters, and am taking the plunge to make this my career. - The bit that is scaring me most are the written examinations! - these will have to be studied via distance learning as I can not afford
to give up my day job! - I seem to have found 2 viable options 1 ATPL exams via Bristol Ground School - or more simply the CPL exams via Dragon helicopters - I am trying to fathom out the pro's and con's of both and would be very appreciative of any advice - especially of any longer term implications of making the wrong choice! many thanks :bored:

[helicopter-redeye]

You can do the ATPL(H) GS course/ exams at GTS in Bournmouth too.

There is also a CPL(H) course with AFT at Coventry.

Glasgow N College have a AT course also.

There are other courses in JAA-land where you may (legally) not be required to pay VAT :ugh: unlike here where it is all VAT-for-Gordy

1a. If you intend to complete a IR (H) within 3 years of finishing the GS exams take the ATPL course. If you do not then take the CPL.

1b. -deleted-

2a. If you are in a hurry then the CPL exams are easier and shorter, as is the course.



h-r;)

[Bravo73]

Do a quick search on here for 'Dragon Helicopters' then another for 'Bristol Ground School'. The results will help you make up your mind!


Otherwise, this topic (ATPL or CPL groundschool) has come up many times before. Another search will produce the thread. Essentially, if you are going to go to the effort of sitting the exams, you might as well do the full ATPL syllabus.

And Dragon are not the only CPL providers. Off the top of my head, Atlantic Flight Training @ Coventry and GTS @ Bournemouth also do it.


HTH,

B73

[BaronG]

One more thing to mention - the ATPL exams will include the Instrument Rating theory, while the basic CPL will not.

Depending on where you are thinking of ending up, an IR may be important.

I did mine with Bristol GS some things to note

1) Their course (as of 6 months ago) contained a lot of fixed wing specific information (e.g. the FMS on 737, how to navigate across the Atlantic using NATS etc). All interesting stuff btw! but some people found (or perhaps better, made) it hard going since it was easy to discount the information as not appropriate for helicopters.

2) Distant learning is a hard slog. I did it full time (i.e while not working) and it was still a lot of work and effort. For the people there who did it while working, for the most part they took around 2 years to get it done (and I suspect there was a fair percentage of "dropouts" - especially those with other commitments at home)

3) The way the course works, you do the studying yourself and get 2 weeks "refresher" (or cramming if you've been slack in the studying). I did it having about a 1000 hours of mainly instructing time, with some other flying (including fiuxed wing), plenty of flight simulator time and having read around the subject a lot.

However, there were those who turned up with a PPL and minimum hours who had even less exposure to aviation (particularly the fixed wing world) than I had and it was an up hill struggle for them.

Finally, there's no way of avoiding it, 2 weeks in a class room to revise ~8 subjects is not a lot of time. If you think you might be a bit slower than average at picking up the information, you may well find it difficult to get everything covered in such a short period.

BG

[paco]

TimBrad - check yer PMs

Phil

[JD714]

Hi Guys, Be gentle it's my first thread....

I am about to finish my Flight training to CPL(h), I have taken the ATPL route with a view to working offshore, having reflected on the course, being mainly a fixed wing course will this go against me in finding employment?

:eek: I perhaps should has asked this prior to spending my entire life savings lol lol lol....

[Whirlygig]

Both CPL and ATPL exams are mostly fixed wing based (although I believe there is a new course which is more helicopter oriented) so everyone's in the same boat, having to learn stuff that's irrelevant and possibly missing out on more relevant stuff.

However, if you don't get an instrument rating in three years, you'll have to do the exams again.

Cheers

Whirls

[heli_spy]

If you got a fixed wing IR and kept it current would this mean you wouldn't have to do the exams again if you didn't complete your heli IR within three years?

[paco]

helispy - I believe you are correct. It should mean that you only needed 10 hours' helicopter training, assuming the IR was a JAA one.

Whirls - The new helicopter course (modular, distance learning, ATP or CPL) should get its approval around mid-May, I am given to understand.

Phil

[Helipilot1982]

Heli Spy

If you kept your fixed wing IR/CPL current and went over the 3 years for the rotary IR - you would only need to do the heli exam again (POF).

Does anyone know if the proposed heli performance exam (ATPL):O has been bought in yet???

[paco]

Torquestripe - if they need a bum on a seat and that bum has a licence, it won't matter!

Phil

[heli_spy]

Many thanks to those who replied to my question.

The helicopter performance exam is not in yet (and you dont have to sit the fixed wing performance exam) so ONLY 13 exams to do.

The 'interim' course was due to come to an end in January and is still the only option for ATPL(H).

[Pofman]

Heli-spy,
The performance exam for helicopters has been in use for full helicopter
ATPL(H) since mid 2004. The same with JAR-OPS 3 Ops Procedures. Surprisingly the helicopter operators have not pushed for the end to the fixed-wing exemptions.

[heli_spy]

Hi Pofman
I'm just coming to the end of a full time ATPL(H) course here in the UK and did not have to do a Performance paper of either helicopter or fixed wing nature as my training provider has opted out.
I'm currently doing a fixed wing PPL as the CAA will not let me do the fixed wing ATPL(A) Perf or PoF paper until I have my PPL(A) and I want all options open in order to actually earn some decent money!

[manfromuncle]

opting out?! eh? how does that work? i thought there was a heli performance paper. there was when i did bristol groundschool in 2006. 13 fixed wing exams and 1 heli performance paper.

plus... cpl/atpl, i dont think it matters. employers know that the exams are just an expensive hurdle to join the old boys club and everyone forgets it all the moment the results hit the doormat.

[G-HALE]

what would a current JAA ATPL A holder need to do in terms of hours and exams to get a JAA CPL H if they had little or no heli flying experience?
Thanks

[Whirlygig]

Not much more in terms of exams; Helicopter Principles of Flight and Performance. However, I would think you would have to gain a PPL(H) first and 155 hours total helicopter time before being eligible to take a CPL flying course. LASORS will have the answer.

Cheers

Whirls

[Helipilot1982]

Its only 105 hrs if holder of an ICAO cpl (a), then the extra exams, a cpl course and a 10 hr IR conversion (if JAA IR (a) holder) if you want the frozen atpl.

[Whirlygig]

Thanks. I CBFA to look it up :} since it's not a route I would do and if it was, I would look it up!

Cheers

Whirls

[heli_spy]

ManfromUncle
My course consisted of 12 fixed wing exams and one Priciples of Flight Helicopters.
What were the 13 fixed wing exams that you did?

Re CPL(H) to ATPL(A) Frozen;

I take it if you have a CPL(H) and want to get a ATPL(A) frozen you just need 105 hours total fixed wing time before statring the CPL(A) course?
Wow only 98 hours to go!

[Drommen]

Hi
I am looking at undertaking the CPLH. Can anyone tell me what advantages there are of undertaking the ATPLH? Wouldn't the CPL be sufficient to work as a flexible commercial pilot? Am I missing something here?
Thanks in advance

[Stringfellow Dork]

I am fairly certain that an ATPL(H) allows the holder to be PIC of a multi-crew helicopter where as a CPL(H) does not.

[jeepys]

Yep, you are dead right.

[Drommen]

Ok, thanks guys. I guess that means that you can still fly multi-crew but not PIC?
Thanks again

[Flingingwings]

I'd also ask yourself what direction work wise you'd like your flying to go:confused:
With the CPL theory you could eventually become an FI :eek:
If you decide you'd like an IR (subject to the validity period) you'd need to sit the IR theory exams if you'd only passed the CPL theory :ugh:, whereas ATPL theory would be sufficient for the IR also :ok:. (Only madatory multi crew is North Sea and they'd want an IR for both crew members, and the onshore companies that regularly fly two crew also want IR's)
IMHO do the ATPL's and keep your options open. I see little to no point in merely doing the CPL theory.

[Whirlygig]

whereas ATPL theory would be sufficient for the IR also

True, but you'd have to get that IR within three years otherwise you'd have to sit the (IR relevant) exams again!!

From my perspective, knowing that I stand a snowball's chance in hell of getting an IR within three years, went for the CPL theory option. If I get to the stage of doing an instrument rating, I'd have to sit or resit the exams anyway!

And, given the number of people on the same CPL(H) course as me, I'm not the only one who thinks along these lines!

Cheers

Whirls

[Bladecrack]

Unless you are sure you want to go multi crew (eg North Sea) the CPL(IR) is sufficient, it will save you an awful lot of studying aeroplanes on the ATPL theory (yes its all fixed wing) dont worry about the 7 IR exams if you run out of time for the IR (3 years) they are a piece of cake, you can do them in around 4 months. (yeah I had to do them!)

Regards,
BC.

[Whirlygig]

it will save you an awful lot of studying aeroplanes on the ATPL theory (yes its all fixed wing)

The CPL is also pretty much fixed wing based!!! :ugh::rolleyes: I'm jumping through the hoops and hoping that my instructor will tell what what I actually need to know as opposed to what the CAA think I should know!!

Cheers

Whirls

[Bladecrack]

The CPL is also pretty much fixed wing based!!!
True Whirls, but the good news is there aint as much of it on the CPL theory course as there is on the ATPL course!!! ;)
BTW, can you enlighten me as to where "the land of bishop bonner" is?
Regards,
BC.

[Whirlygig]

True Bladecrack, but the bad news is that CPL(H) students have to cover an element of aeroplane performance whereas the ATPL(H) chaps are exempted!

Cheers

Whirls


PS - Check out my web link - explains all!

[Ewe Turn]

Hi Whirls
I distinctinctly remember having to do a hellish 3 hour Performance: Flight Planning and Monitoring exam in my recent ATPL(H) exams. :ugh: It was pure 100% fixed wing.
No fun at all I can tell you !

[Whirlygig]

ATPL(A) students have 14 exams; (H)s have 13. I was under the impression that the "missing" one was Performance. However, I think Flight Planning might be a different :confused: subject even though much of the subject matter may be common to both. Whatever, it's all pretty much plank!

Cheers

Whirls

[Drommen]

Dear all
Thanks for the input. As I understand it then, if I want to work North Sea, I must have IR either strapped on at end of CPL or through ATPL.

[the beater]

If you want to work on the North Sea, you will need a CPL/IR. Irrespective of the exams you take, you cannot obtain an ATPL without first obtaining the CPL and an IR. This is because to obtain a JAA ATPL you are required to have experience of piloting Multi-Crew aircraft. As mentioned in an earlier post, you only require an ATPL if you are the Captain of a Multi-Crew aircraft.
It is important that you understand this distinction. You do not get an IR through completing the ATPL exams; you obtain an ATPL through completing the ATPL exams, obtaining an IR, gaining experience in a twin-crew aircraft, plus all the other hours and experience requirements as laid down in JAR-FCL 2.

[efhfpilot]

In the fixed wing world you need a 'frozen ATPL' (ATPL theory exams passed) in order to fly in a multi-crew operation. Is it the same in Helicopters?

Would a CPL and IR level of theory be enough for the North Sea or, like in aeroplanes, do you need the ATPL theory passes as it's multi-crew?

[Minty Fresh]

Don't worry - as soon as you get it all straight and understood, someones gonna mention that its all changing :}

Did someone mention ATPL (VFR)

[paco]

Not until at least late next year is my current information!

phil

[efhfpilot]

Is that need or do not need ATPL theory for multi-crew helicopter operations? I know you need an actual ATPL licence to be Captain but is CPL and IR theory enough for a co-pilot?

[Bravo73]

Would a CPL and IR level of theory be enough for the North Sea?

No.

The NS operators are not interested in employing professional FOs. ie pilots who are going to remain as FOs.

They are looking to employ pilots who will eventually be promoted to captains. Therefore, you'll need ATPL theory.



(FYI, the current system of CPL+IR=ATPL is about to be phased out, if it hasn't been already.)

[helipedro]

Is there any the difference (apart of a chapter about the jet-stream and another chapter on doppler)?
A few years back I checked the whole syllabus for CPL+IR and ATPL and it was exactly the same.The outstanding difference would be multicrew training.Thats why the JAR says : Anyone that holds a CPL+IR has the knowledge for an ATPL.;)

[Bravo73]

Is there any the difference (apart of a chapter about the jet-stream and another chapter on doppler)?


Yes, quite a bit.

For example, (and although this is obviously FW orientated), the ATPL Performance paper covers SEP, MEP and MRJT (medium range jet transport - ie 737).

The IR Performance paper only covers SEP and MEP. I've never taken the CPL Performance paper but I imagine that it also only covers SEP and MEP. Therefore, you're missing out on the element that applies most directly to an aspirant ATPL.

Off the top of my head, on the Met paper, the IR syllabus doesn't cover Global Climatology, quite a significant proportion of the ATPL syllabus.


So, yes, in my mind CPL+IR≠ATPL.



PS Please don't turn this into a frustrated discussion of the relevance of the FW syllabus to the RW world. As it stands, we've got to take the same exams (so live with it!)

[tintinminos]

Hi there!

I have my PPL(H) and am going to do my CPL(H) but after much searching I am still undecided on which route to take, the full ATPL(H) exams or just the CPL(H) exams (doing it somewhere like atlantic).
As i understand it...

I do the CPL(H) then i can do my cpl flight training, then if i want to get my IR i need to the IR exams and the IR flight training. After which i have the equivalent of an ATPL(H) but would of taken more exams.

Or...

I do the ATPL(H) and this covers me for both my CPL(H) and IR, but if i dont do the IR within 3 years, i have to do them all again!

What i'm not sure on is when applying for an on-shore job which doesn't require an IR, is there any benifit (or does it make you look better) if you have all the ATPL(H) exams opposed to 'just' the CPL(H) exams.

Any help would be greatly appriciated!

[hostile]

If you are already done the decission to do ATPL (theory) now or later, why playing time? After the all, you can focus on to found a place to work.:rolleyes:

Good luck:ok:

Hostile.

[tintinminos]

The thing is i'm not sure whether i'll definately do my ATPL/IR, within 3 years, or at all!
Sorry if i was unclear!

[walkabout]

Hi

In my (fairly recent) experience, you are unlikely to get any extra credit for having the IR exams without the rating. So whether you do just the CPL exams initially or CPL/IR together depends on whether you realistically stand any chance of completing the IR within 3 years (from date of your last exam sitting). The big factor in that will be your financial situation......so back to you.


W

[TiPwEiGhT]

I believe the exams expirey date thing may be changing. I think I remember Fred Cross mentioning something about it a few months ago, a VFR ATPL(H)??

TiP:ok:

[g-mady]

I thought if you dont achieve your IR within 3 years with your atpl exams passed and a CPL (H) passed your licence remains a CPL(H)?
You only have to do the exams again if you then want to upgrade to a ATPL(H) after that period?

MADY

[Bravo73]

I believe the exams expirey date thing may be changing.

Tipweight,

That is (unfortunately) an unfounded rumour that never actually happened. The most recent amendment to JAR-FCL2 was supposedly going to extend the 3 year limit from last exam to IR issue to 7 years. This never happened. The 3 year limit still stands.

What did change was the time frame within which you can apply for an ATPL(H). IIRC, that limit is now indefinite.



I think I remember Fred Cross mentioning something about it a few months ago, a VFR ATPL(H)??

As far as I understand it, the VFR ATPL is going to come in but it won't have any effect on IRs and theory credits. Paco seems to have more info on VFR ATPL situation, if you need it.



And FYI tintinminos, 'CPL theory' + 'IR theory' no longer equals 'ATPL theory'. This was also changed under the latest amendment.


HTH

[Stringfellow Dork]

And FYI tintinminos, 'CPL theory' + 'IR theory' no longer equals 'ATPL theory'. This was also changed under the latest amendment.

When was this latest amendment?

[Whirlygig]

After I enrolled for CPL(H) Ground School, that's when! :ugh:

Cheers

Whirls

[Bravo73]

When was this latest amendment?

It came into force a couple of months ago. Any JAA FTO should have current details.

[choppertop]

I have no axe to grind -- genuinely, cross my heart -- but I can't speak highly enough of the CPL(H) course at Bournemouth. The study material, the course structure and most of all the instructors, Roger and Pete, are simply superb. Oh, and it's absurdly cheap!

I heard today that I had passed the last of the nine exams, exactly six months after starting the course. I worked hard but I could have worked harder; I failed my maths and physics 'O' levels repeatedly at school yet I averaged 89% across the CPL exams. [So ... la la la, poke that up your calculus, Mr Churchman, and all at my rubbish secondary school.]

Take it from me, when we GTS students were waiting at Aviation House to sit our exams with students of other colleges, we were the only ones who had nothing but praise for our course. Grumble, snipe and claim I'm Roger Henshaw's catamite if you wish, but I speak the truth.

When something's good, it's worth shouting about. I thank you.

[Whirlygig]

Well done choppertop and given I also got my results today (passed), we must have sat the same sitting at Gatwick!

However, in all fairness, I don't think you were the only one with praise for your school as I certainly have no complaints about AFT especially after the marks I got!!! And I think my two comrades are happy with them as well.

However, some of the fixed wing guys were a tad disgruntled!

Cheers

Whirls

[Bravo73]

Congrats, Whirls (and choppertop, of course!) :D:D:D

[Whirlygig]

Thanks Mon Brav!

I'd just like to point out, that when I said the fixed wing chaps weren't too happy with their tuition etc, they weren't AFT students; I don't know which groundschool they went to.

Cheers

Whirls

[helimutt]

Well done to those who passed the (H) exams.

Whirls, you sure you're doing the right thing? :E

[copter65]

I have been reading all the comments, does anyone agree with me....... what a load of crap 50% of the Bristol course is.

There will be such a shortage of pilots soon, because all this mind blowing garb and the ever increasing cost of obtaining all the hour minimums and ratings required to get, at best, "an average 'professional' salary" is a joke.

[helimutt]

Couldn't agree more. :D

[Whirlygig]

does anyone agree with me....... what a load of crap 50% of the Bristol course is.

Not entirely. The Bristol course, as with those run by other training organisations, is based on the Learning Objectives set by the JAA. Helicopters were a bit of an afterthought. I think you'll find that every course is 50% crap; even the fixed wing guys ackowledge they'll never use half of it.

Helimutt, nope but I'm going for it anyway! Flying bit in May/June hopefully!

Cheers

Whirls

[copter65]

Couldn't agree more whirlygig bout the ATPL content.

I really really struggled with it all, I wonder if a "learning to fly a 747 for the blind and deaf pilot" course would be any easier??? Hahaha!

Got there in the end though.........

[firebird_uk]

No point blaming the Bristol guys, they're just teaching you what you'll need to pass the exams. Irrelevant or not.

I'm told they'll have a helicopter specific course later this year. Won't be of any use to me as I take my Mod 2 ATPL(H) exams in April.

Also not sure I'd want to be the first on a new course, with new exam objectives and no history / question bank. :eek: Sadly, it seems to me better to learn stuff that's irrelevant knowing Bristol can get you through the exams, rather than relevant material and no idea as to whether you'll pass.

It's all just a game anyway, almost none of it will make you a better pilot. That's in your hands. :}

[HeliCraig]

Since the CAA have decided that I am fit enough to hold a Class 1 medical, my thoughts are now turning to getting started on the theory stuff. Because of other commitments I shall be doing distance learning.

I am interested to hear peoples opinions on whether to do the ATPL or CPL course? And the merits / demerits of both?

I appreciate that advertising is not permitted - but any experiences of doing the above via Distance learning with the various providers is appreciated!

Obviously some background is helpful: Currently around a 100 hr PPL(H), and while I have no immediate intention to start an aviation career I would like to get my CPL / FI ratings over the next 5 years or so; perhaps ending up doing odd bits of CPL work and some instructing at the weekends (assuming I am that lucky!). No plans to do an IR within the time frame afforded by an ATPL.

Anyway, all opinions welcomed!

C.

[DBChopper]

I would like to get my CPL / FI ratings over the next 5 years or so; perhaps ending up doing odd bits of CPL work and some instructing at the weekends (assuming I am that lucky!). No plans to do an IR within the time frame afforded by an ATPL.

Hi Craig,

It seems to me that you have answered your own question here. As I find myself in a similar set of circumstances with no plan to give up my day job just yet and no real desire to fly in multi-crew IR helicopters (mainly North Sea in the UK I guess), the CPL(H) writtens seemed more appropriate. For what it is worth, I am studying with Dragon Helicopters and after I have taken my first set of five exams in July, I'll let you know how it went... So far, I have discovered that the study material seems up to scratch, they are very quick to mark progress tests and answer queries, and I am crap at home study :\

Let us know what course of action you decide upon and good luck.

DBChopper
:ok:

[763 jock]

Hi. Did the CPL fixed wing in th '80s and then went back again to do the ATPL about 18 months later. Times have probably changed, but back then it was really frustrating having to go over a load of the same stuff again with a few add ons for the ATPL.

My advice, do the ATPL theory rather than the CPL. Not a lot more content and you'll be more marketable if your aspirations change.

[timex]

From personal experience you won't get better than Bristol Ground School for distance learning.

http://www.bristol.gs/

[Pandalet]

Whichever school you go with, I strongly suggest you do the real-deal helicopter syllabus, rather than the transitional one. Unless you really want to learn about fixed wing, of course. To be honest, I'd probably do the ATPL route even if I wasn't planning to go IR etc, as I'm finding the material really interesting, but then I'm reliably informed that I'm a wierd cow, so my experiences may not be informative :ok:.

I'd be happy to give you my recommendation as to which school to attend via PM, if you'd like it.

[Whirlygig]

The ATPL exams are only any use if you plan on getting an IR (and working in a multi-crew environment) within three years of passing your exams. If you don’t wish to get an IR, then the only point of the ATPL exams would be for your own interest!

If you did decide, after 5 years to go for the IR, you’d have to do the IR exams, if not the whole ATPL (depending …..)

The standard of the questions between ATPL and CPL is the same but the CPL syllabus is shorter (though not by much apparently!!). PoF is the same paper for CPL and ATPL as is, I believe, HPL.

However, with each exam being £63.00 plus travel costs plus expenses for brush-up courses, a shorter syllabus will be cheaper.

There are three CPL(H) providers; Atlantic (who are under the Interim system – I used them and they are good but it is very fixed wing oriented), Dragon (who have a helicopter specific course) and CAPT (also H-specific). Of these, only CAPT do an H-specific ATPL.

Bristol GS do interim ATPL(H) but not CPL(H). Glasgow has, I believe, ceased to do ATPL studies completely.

Hope that helps,

Cheers

Whirls

[firebird_uk]

I've just finished my final set of ATPL(H) exams via the interim procedure. Yes, many of the subjects studied were irrelevant, but by taking a PPL(A) and two more exams I could have an ATPL(A) also.

I did my modular course via Bristol and were happy with both the training they provided and (more importantly) the way they prepare you for the exams.

I intent top become an FI, but felt that the extra effort to get the ATPL(H) may benefit me in the future should I choose to get an IR. Yes you only (currently) have 3 years to achieve the IR, but that's probably long enough to build a bank of hours via training, get some turbine time and decide what it is you 'really' want to do.

Many jobs look great from the outside, but until you're doing them day in day out you never know. I know my FI is beginning to get fed up of students trying to kill him!

While I was at Bristol GS about a month ago a little birdie told me that the CAA were dropping the interim procedure this July. Anyone starting a modular course after that will have to take the full helicopter course. I know Bristol don't want to be fixed wing only so I'd expect an ATPL(H) course announcement from them soon.

[Whirlygig]

but by taking a PPL(A) and two more exams I could have an ATPL(A) also.
Er, no you wouldn’t; you’d have a PPL(A) with ATPL(A) theory credits which is still a PPL(A). You would still have to hour build in an aeroplane and take a CPL(A) flying course as well as the necessary experience and ratings (IR/MCC/ME) requirements to get an ATPL(A).

If one thinks there is a possibility of getting an IR within 3 years, by all means go for the ATPL(H), otherwise the CPL(H) exams are sufficient.

Cheers

Whirls

[heli-mad]

From personal experience i would go for ATPL(H) with Bristol G.S. I know some friends of mine didnt get through CPL exams and they were not the only ones. Not blaming Dragon (the school they used) but the exams for CPl are new...i.e the database is new. At least it was 1-2 years ago when they started. Not great feedback so the school cannot help you much.

Bear in mind that Dragon has copied B.G.S bookes anyway(with threir permision) and just removed some bits from them and named them CPL....

Go safe, go with BGS, prefesional people and they will get you through. hammer the database and you'll be fine. You never know, you might change your mind in less than tree years about IR...if not you will just have a normal CPL after 3y...

Good luck:ok:

[Whirlygig]

Not strictly true. I've just completed my CPL(H) and I would say that the Bristol feedback was pretty much identical to the real thing so exam practice was plentiful. But I didn't go to Dragon.

I can't see any point doing ATPL exams just to go to Bristol Ground School; there are many more providers out there now!

Cheers

Whirls

[Torquetalk]

heli-mad

Your comments on Dragon's CPL (H) are prejudicial and incorrect. Many of the modules draw from the same question database as the modules for the ATPL. The exact same questions. There may be some new ones in there (especially in AGK), and the amalgamation of and number of themes, length of exams and number of questions may differ ATPL & CPL, but that is all.

I have no interest in promoting either BGS or Dragon, but if your friends didn't pass CPL with Dragon, they probably didn't put the graft in. And they would likely also have also failed ATPL with BGS. Ultimately, it's the student who has to be "prefesional" :rolleyes:

TT

[paco]

Let's not forget Bristow Academy, with whom we now have an arrangement for consolidation weeks in the USA.

Phil

[heli-mad]

guys dont shoot......... if you read correctly i dint say anyhting bad about Dragon. I just said when my friends did it it was new exams and feedback was not great. Was this a reason that they didnt pass exams? I think it had something to do with it.

TT,

I have to agree with you though, students have to be profesional, so does the school. I do not have any interest in either schools and as stated in the begining of my post its from my personal experience doing ATPL(H):{

I am sorry if i didnt make my point clearer...

Good luck anyway to our friend that started the post with his descision, i am sure that things are a lot better with most schools now.

H-M

[HeliCraig]

Thanks for all your replies folks. Will absorb all the info and make a decision... veering toward the ATPL(H) at the moment; if for no other reason than the extra information!!

[Pandalet]

Regarding new exams and lack of feedback:

The CAA inform me that I'm the first person in the UK to write the non-transitional ATPL(H) exams. I've only written 4 of them so far, and I don't have the results just yet (this week, one hopes!), but I can definately say that I wasn't uncomfortable writing them, as my school made every effort to teach me the necessary stuff. The question banks have most of the questions (although there were a few new ones), but the syllabus I studied from covered everything. If the syllabus is known (as the ATPL(H) one is), then lack of feedback makes no difference at all; you still have the option of protesting a question if you feel it's unfair!

My suggestion would be to choose a school that teaches you the material, not one that helps you memorise questions.

[MartinCh]

Let's not forget Bristow Academy, with whom we now have an arrangement for consolidation weeks in the USA.

Phil

Fairly subtle ad, innit? It's pretty good deal for both CAPT and BA. So they do their own ATPL(H) theory and will chuck your distant learning students to the classroom for the consolidation. Can they also take the exams at Bristow Ac if they are not their own students? Just out of curiosity at the moment. Seems good thing to me. Plus you get all the US transients or US based pilots doing your unnamed business course (look left).

Can't wait till my PPL(H) flight training in the US. All I need is June already :D

[Bravo73]

Fairly subtle ad, innit?

FYI, Martin, Phil doesn't need to be subtle. He (ie CAPT) pays for advertising so he is allowed to promote his services.

[paco]

Yes, the exams can be done over there as well.

Extending Pandalet's point, if the notes are properly written and the student does the work, there is no need for the frenetic consolidation weeks I keep hearing about.

Phil

[Pofman]

Pandalet.

Your last sentence is so right.

Paco.

Way to go.

Everbody thinks there is an easier way. Why read the notes when you can memorise thousands of questions? Guess which pilots finish up with the best jobs?

Keep spreading the commonsense.

[helicopter-redeye]

...no other reason than the extra information!!...

I always think about the extra sleep I lost ....

[choppertop]

No mention here of the excellent CPL(H) ground school run by Ground Training Services Ltd of Bournemouth [I have no connection to them in anyway, nor any axe to grind].

GTS got me through the whole thing via home study in six months flat, while holding down a full-time job running my own business. And for less than two thousand quid!

And why, if you're just going to instruct and do a bit of VFR charter work, would you bother with the ATPL(H)? Get in quick under the interim arrangements and you won't even have to do a CPL performance paper.

If I decide my brain is big enough and my pockets deep enough and the salary prospects tempting enough to do an IR, I'm told the two ground school modules are no sweat if you've coped with the CPL(H).

CPL(H) for me, any day.

[helicopter-redeye]

CT, I think Roger's dropped the CPL H course now - he was just going to focus on the ATPL and IR courses (with the emphasis in A rather than H for the ATPL)

h-r

[Whirlygig]

veering toward the ATPL(H) at the moment; if for no other reason than the extra information!!
I can't help but think you would be just as well off using the extra cash saved buying and reading say, Ray Prouty's book or Shawn Coyle's without putting the extra pressure on yourself to pass exams you probably won't need.

You only really need the ATPL exams if you plan to go off-shore, otherwise, CPL and IR exams should suffice for anything else.

Cheers

Whirls

[kpd]

Choppertop checked gts webpage but can't find CPL(H) only CPL(A)??

[Heli-phile]

Likely you will have to do both a type rating on the test machine as well as the IR flight test itself. IR is a difficult achievement and making life harder for yourself (at huge expense) is less than Ideal.

[R22 Driver]

hi guys,
there seems to me to be a lot of discussion about the pro's and con's of doing various courses in different countries, but very little about where exactly to do the course once you have decided on a specific country.
I have done all my training and hour building in the UK for a variety of reasons and was always struck by the lack of information available to those wishing to do a CPL/ FIC course.
I think through shear dumb luck i really landed on my feet. I did both the CPL and FIC with helicopter services at Wycombe at the start of the year and i have to say that they were excellent. I realise they are quite well known for their instrument rating courses but i had never heard of them before i started the training.
i dont want this thread to turn into an advertisement for the company, thats not what i'm trying to accomplish. i simply want to advise those who are considering doing a CPL/ FIC course in the UK that in my humble opinion this company is extremely good. the instructors are all extremely knowledgeable and helpful and they get you to a very high standard before putting you up for the test. once you have passed they will even help you in the search for that elusive first job.
i cannot reccomend them enough,

safe flying:ok:

[helimutt]

speaking as someone who went through the Helicopter Services system in the not too distant past, they have a wealth of experience for the courses they run and agree Leon has a good setup. (he doesn't like Geordies anymore tho!!) They may get you up to standard but it's up to you to pass the test. I let them down on their pass rate unfortunately, but after a 'couple' of attempts, got through the IRT with them.
The key to the whole training industry is research. Go through every resource you can find. Speak to as many people as you can who may be able to recommend somewhere and search the internet, ie PPRuNe.
Ask the pro's where they would recommend. Cheap courses are usually cheap for a reason. Advertised at a lower price then more training necessary to get you up to standard perhaps? No, that doesn't happen. Shouldn't have said that.:E

[Messerschmitt]

Regarding time building in US, I have phoned a school there and they informed me that you will not be allowed to work as an instructor to build your hours if you have any type of foreign licence, since the government will not give you the J1 Visa.

If anyone knows otherwise please do share.

[darrenphughes]

I know you become ineligible for the J1 if you have more than an FAA Private or more than 50 hours experience. That rule could also incorporate any ICAO Private, although I don't know for sure. Just don't tell them when you're applying for the Visa. After you get it than you can then proceed to get your FAA ratings while using your aeronautical experience to meet the FAR requirements. I've never heard of immigration checking up on your aeronautical experience while you're in your course, although I could be wrong.

Just be careful about the little lies you tell so that you don't get caught out by them!! This angle probably won't go down very well with some of the Americans on here, but if your future career depends on it, you gotta do what you gotta do!!

[NSO]

I am hoping to start studying for my Frozen ATPL(h) & ME IR soon, but I am having nightmares trying to decide on the best route and who with to train with. The problem is trying to decide between factors such as 'total flying hours Vs reputation Vs quality of training Vs rumours'....have been told by Integrated School (Cabair) that you can get a start careerwise with less hours because employers view the Integrated route differently to the modular route.....have been told by the modular schools that there is no difference from an employers perspective and that it is all about the number of hours!

Has anybody trained with any of these companies and if so where did you end up employment wise? any views or help would be greatly appreciated.

NS

[Whirlygig]

have been told by Integrated School (Cabair) that you can get a start careerwise with less hours because employers view the Integrated route differently to the modular route.
To mis-quote Mandy Rice-Davies, "Well, they would say that, wouldn't they".

When helicopter operators were recruiting (and none are at the moment), their requirements were for hours and experience (usually in the thousands of hours) therefore, whether the initial training is integrated or modular is usually irrelevant.

You're far better off going the modular route and use the money you save to get more hours or maybe an FI rating.

Cheers

Whirls

[Darren999]

Do Police or HEMS units require an ATPL rating?
Do they require an IR?
Would the Commercial exams be surfice to apply for a position?
Thank you for your help...

[SECRET SERVICE]

As far as I'm aware - at the present time neither police nor hems operation units require an IR.

Although the 11 pilots within the Met ASU have all recently completed their IRs.

There was a job advertisement recently to recruit an additional Met pilot and one of the requirements was for the candidate to have an IR.

It's guess it's only a matter of time before other forces follow suit. As for the Hems units I don't know?

Secret Service

[Whirlygig]

Police/HEMS in the UK do not need an IR as such but they do require a considerable number of hours night flying which means effectively, unless you have military training or gained several hundred hours night flying on a PPL, that you need an IR to get this experience.

Cheers

Whirls

[flap flap flap]

UK Police/EMS requirements are something like this

1,500 hrs total
1,000 hrs PIC
50-100 hrs night
500 hrs twin turbine
significant low-level ops experience

And... I think all police pilots will need an IR by 2012

[nellycopter]

Ok so this seems to be a really old thread,
I am thinking of doing my CPL(H)
I have 700 hrs pplh, I also have my own Heli to do any further training.
I struggled like hell at school with exams, so may need that extra bit of tuition etc...
Have there been many changes since the last post ?
Is there anywhere "up north" to do the course ?
What companies are still around ?
Are there any individuals that offer one to one ground school/ exam prep ?

Any comments or help would be appreciated..

Nelly

[paco]

Helicentre at leicester are working with us on that sort of thing

Phil

[Colibri49]

I hope that I don't sound patronising but there are many bright, intelligent and capable people in this world who can't read or write and struggle with book learning. I wasn't a good student at school and scraped through, when I should have done much better if I wasn't so lazy.

But the commercial helicopter flying world which has afforded me a good living for 31 years requires that you do written exams and tests periodically throughout. I'm not aware of anyone who does private one-to-one tuition and I never heard of such.

Your best bet to pass the quite onerous ground exams is to attend a reputable place like Bristol Ground School and give up on drinking and socialising most days of the week until you pass. You no doubt already passed the PPL(H) written exams to get your licence, which will give you a feeling for the workload and you can multiply that load by about 5 times for the commercials.

Really there is no alternative route to the licence than hard graft, after which you still might not get a worthwhile job. So do you REALLY want a CPL(H)? You don't seem as if you're short of money now and you could spend a whole lot more, plus the effort and time to get you no further.

[paco]

"I'm not aware of anyone who does private one-to-one tuition and I never heard of such."

We do, as do several of our instructors.

"Your best bet to pass the quite onerous ground exams is to attend a reputable place like Bristol Ground School"

They are not the only, or necessarily the best, game in town.

Phil

[Flyting]

"Your best bet to pass the quite onerous ground exams is to... practice the online exams until you're blue in the face :{