FAA or JAA licenses?

[Oxeagle]

Hi all,
I'm in a bit of a conundrum at the moment. I've been looking at the cost of JAA modular fATPL courses, and I see that on averge it costs around the £30k mark, leaving me with as much chance as anyone else of getting a job. However, i've been looking at some of the FAA packages for the same price, and they compare much more favourably. Take this as an example - for £35k I could get my FAA CPL ME/IR and 500 hours commercial ME turbine time! :eek:

Obviously the FAA option is much much more attractive to me, but I have a questions that I need answering before I can really consider this route.

1. Would a European airline employ me with FAA licenses, taking in to account the 500-hours turbine time? - I don't mind if the answer to this question is 'no', as I would be happy to work anywhere in the world

2. Which other countries accept FAA licenses?

3. If I did my JAA fATPL in the US(or anywhere else for that matter), then did the 500 hour turbine package over there would all of the hours count on my JAA license? - most important one for me

Any advice would be much appreciated, but a nice balanced arguement would be good as well :}

Cheers :ok:

[Peter_CDG]

That´s not possible. Nearly all european airlines require a JAA license. There are only a few possibilities for guys with a faa license outside the states. I think some companies in the middle east accept the faa license.

Have a look on http://www.ppjn.com

The question is, where would you like to be in a few years. If you would like to work in europe, obtain the JAA license.
If you would like to work in the states take into account, that you need a visa and a working permission. You can apply for a J1 visa. With this visa you may stay and work in the states for 24 month. For example it´s possible to work as a flight instructor and build some flight time.
If you hold a valid faa commercial license with multi engine and ifr it´s possible to convert this license into a jaa license. You have to sit the complete atpl theoretical examination with the CAA. For the complete conversion you can expect round about GBP 10.000.

Have a look on http://www.jals.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=148

[scroggs]

As a non US citizen, an FAA licence is of extremely limited value. Expat jobs elsewhere in the world that accept FAA licences are generally for experienced pilots (and 500 hours is a drop in the ocean in that context). Unless you can get a Green Card (have a search for earlier discussions) you will not get proper employment in the USA, where the airline pilot market is, in any case, far worse than in UK and Europe thanks to the ongoing post-9/11 troubles of an industry which is largely bankrupt (though protected from creditors by Chapter 11 legislation) and thus unable to expand. Several thousand US commercial pilots are stll furloughed (laid off) from these airlines, and they're in the queue ahead of you.

It is possible to take the FAA licence and then convert it to JAA, but this isn't an easy or cheap option. Again, it's been discussed here many times before.

In summary, there are no short cuts in this business. If you have US residency and work rights (the 'Green Card'), then the FAA licence may be worthwhile (but remember what I said about the US pilot employment market). Otherwise, it's probably a waste of time.

Scroggs

[Oxeagle]

Ok thanks for your advice guys, just looking at the possibilities for now. So, if I got my JAA fATPL and did say 500 hours in the US as an FO of a B1900 or similar ME-turboprop (Looking at UKFT's First Officer time building program) could I log these hours?

[potkettleblack]

I have never been to UKFT or have read their website but some initial things for you to consider:-

- are UKFT a JAA approved FTO? If not who are they going to be using to get you up to JAA fATPL level?

- most of these US based supposedly JAA schemes are effectively selling you a bunch of FAA licences and ratings which you then convert to JAA. Some of the more unscrupulous operators only train in the JAA bits and pieces near the end of the training contract as they figure they have a hold over you of sorts.

- If its the case that you will be getting a bunch of FAA licences and ratings itemise out each one and compare it to what any other US FTO would be able to train you for. I am willing to bet you a pint that whatever price that UKFT or NAC or EFT or will sell you a FAA PPL for could be beaten by any of a thousand or more FTO's scattered across the US.

- did you realise that the IR skill test needs to be undertaken in a JAA state and not in the US? If so have you checked out who will be your training provider back in the UK (if the CAA will issue your JAA licence)? Have you checked out how many hours UKFT have allowed for this "UK IR flying" time in the budget? Have you budgeted for flights back to the UK for the IR?

- do a search under "multi crew" as opposed to "multi engine" and find out all about the differences and what can and can't be logged under JAA. Check out also about the Beech 1900 and where it sits in the "multi crew" scheme of things.

- Note that there are two completely different systems for logging flight time between the JAA and FAA systems. JAA undoubtedly will have you logging LESS time. Have a search on pprune.

- do a search on safety pilot and logging hours as well whilst you are at it.

After doing all the above and doing your sums look at the total cost of the UKFT scheme and then compare it to other schools for comparison before jumping in. You might want to weigh up going down the modular route and going it alone and choosing where to do your hour building, ME, CPL/IR & MCC polus distance learning etc.

Good luck.

[Oxeagle]

Cheers potkettleblack,
I don't think I made myself completely clear. I would only do the 500 hours FO hour building program with UKFT. I am going to do my fATPL with Riverside, who I have heard excellent things about. They do their JAR conversion training at Airways Flight Center, which I have heard also comes highly recommended.

I have just looked at a thread talking about ICUS hours. Even if the aircraft was under 5.6 tonnes (or whatever the minimum weight is for a multi-crew aircraft operationg under JAR, please correct me), I could log ICUS hours from being in the RHS as it is a commercial operation?

That leads me onto another question; when judging whether an aircraft should be multi-crew or not by its weight, what is used: empty weight or MAUW?

Anyway, I shall search the forums as you suggested to try and find the answers.

[potkettleblack]

That leads me onto another question; when judging whether an aircraft should be multi-crew or not by its weight, what is used: empty weight or MAUW

Not sure it is that clear cut. I stand to be corrected but think that the airlines OPS manual and/or the AOC dictate whether a specific aircraft type has to be flown multi crew. I seem to remember in the distant past reading somewhere that the CAA have a list of aircraft types that are NOT considered to be multi crew. I would think this is dictated in turn by a mix of the aircraft type and the operation/purpose for which it is flown.

The whole hour building on a twin turbine is a tough one to really answer in a lot of respects. Some operators might give you "credit" when reviewing your cv irrespective of whether or not you could log the time for JAA. Of course you would have to find a way of drawing their attention to these 500 hours not included in your JAA totals. Others might not be so kind. I guess a small biz operator from a regional airport MIGHT be interested if you could prove to him that you have 500 hours in the RHS then again would you be JAA type rated? Type ratings do not necessarily cross transfer from FAA world to JAA land. Then there is the issue of whether your 500 hours are really what the operator is after and whether he is really after someone with European flying experience and more hours. Lots of ifs and buts that really don't have an answer I am afraid.

[Oxeagle]

Can't find much on the CAA's website, as a search throws back pretty much every page in the site's index :ugh: I'll ask my instructor about it tommorow. Thanks for you help anyway potkettleblack :ok:

[dartagnan]

do you privat and IR (FAA multi), log hours, and back to europe to finish JAA cpl and multi IR...
dont waste time and money in the USA.

you can still go back to the USA later to log time if no job in europe.

[Lightheart]

So long as the twin turbine is FAR/JAR 25 certified, you'll be OK (if you want to log multi-crew time). Beware of these programmes that promise PIC in single pilot aircraft (and put you right seat), JAA won't accept those hours.

I got my FAA licenses in the US and am hour building in a multi-crew aircraft whilst studying for my ATPLs. When I return to Europe shall then convert to JAA. You can read Lasors to find out about conversion requirements.

[BillieBob]

The JAA list of aeroplane types, split into MPA and SPA can be found here (http://www.jaa.nl/licensing/classtyperatings.html). If the type is not listed as MPA it is unlikely that hours on that type will be accepted except as PIC.

It is the manufacturer and/or the certificating Authority that decides whether an aeroplane is classed as MPA or SPA - it does not, necessarily, depend solely on weight. An operator can elect to operate any aeroplane with two pilots, whether certified as SPA or MPA - it is up to the licensing Authority to decide whether to accept P2 hours gained in a single-pilot aeroplane. The UK CAA will normally accept P2 hours provided that the relevant company Operations Manual requires that all flying, including test flights and positioning, is conducted multi-pilot.

[scameron77]

both Billiebob and Lightheart speak sense, do your homework before embarking. Be aware of the following which I got from the bestaviation.net website:

'MCC is the equivalent to LOFT (Line Orientated Flight Training) in USA, but unlike the US an MCC course is a minimum requirement with all airlines in Europe. The one exception to this rule is if you already have over 500 hours total time in a JAR 25 approved multi crew environment. Just be careful here because JAR does not recognize single pilot airplanes flown in a multi crew environment as being multi crew time (this also goes for the SIC time in your logbook). An example of this is a single pilot airplane like the Beech King Air 200 flown with two pilots because of insurance requirements. Under FAA this would be valid SIC time for the copilot – under JAA it is not as the airplane is not considered to require a multi-crew.'

Also bear in mind if you want to work in Europe companies such as BA don't recognise hours obtained in certain types of aircraft. See another post I put on the interviews and jobs forum for the requirements. Aircraft such as a Beech 1900 don't qualify. So essentially what I'm saying is, work out where you want to be, work out what's going to get your there as economically and painlessly in terms of time and money and go for it.

[chuks]

Wouldn't it make more sense to start with the JAR writtens, and go on from there? For that you just need a PPL.

I haven't gone into this in great depth but it seems to me that there's no 'conversion' of a FAA license to a JAR license per se. The last time I tried this sort of thing, in Germany pre-JAR, I got a CPL/IR for my FAA ATP after doing Air Law, Mass and Balance, and two other writtens I cannot remember much about. All in all it struck me as a lot of work for not very much in return, and that was with plenty of hours.

I was amused by being told that I didn't 'have the necessary experience' to even do the ATPL tests because I didn't have any time in Part 25 aircraft. So then I asked in return if I could fly a Citation on a CPL, perhaps? 'Of course not! Zat is a Part 25 aircraft!' So what was that CE-500 Series type-rating on my FAA license good for then?

Well, that was just me being silly, of course. The real answer was just 'Please go away and stop bothering us.' So I did, ending up flying in Africa as a Captain on an aircraft the Germans wouldn't have even allowed me into the cockpit on, since one needs a frozen ATPL as an FO.

It's a Euro-centric little world you are trying to break into and FAA qualifications seem simply to annoy. If it's JAR you want, perhaps it's better to just go JAR from the beginning.

[potkettleblack]

Wouldn't it make more sense to start with the JAR writtens, and go on from there? For that you just need a PPL.

Depends on your timeline really. LASORS (copy on the CAA website) has all the requirements for converting plus the rules governing the JAA writtens. In terms of the writtens though you have 18 months from the date of your first pass to get all 14. Six sittings in total to do them all and 3 attempts at each paper ( I think). Then once all 14 are passed you have 3 years to get your JAA IR or else your thereoretical credits are lost again. I think that is it in a nutshell but you had better double check to make sure.

[Oxeagle]

Thankyou so much for your help guys, you're helped me get it straight in my mind the requirements for logging hours in a multi-crew aircraft! :ok: BillieBob, thanks for the link, I see the the B1900 is a no-go, but I cannot find any reference to the Fairchild Metroliner, which is another possibility for me. Anyone know if this is considered a MC aircraft under JAR?