Pakistan International Airlines

[newscaster]

Twice weekly Karachi-Dubai-Nairobi and once weekly Islamabad-Urumqi routes are gone both got A310.

[newscaster]

Besides dropping the above two, Athens and Istanbul have been resumed, ATH is with an A310 twice weekly Karachi-Lahore-Milan-Athens-Lahore-Karachi the other via Islamabad instead of Lahore, Istanbul is with 777-200ER once weekly Karachi-Islamabad-Istanbul-Frankfurt more frequencies will be added as slots become available.

[Dr747]

on a slightly different note here is something from
http://www.brecorder.com/index.php?id=418731&currPageNo=3&query=&search=&term=&supDate=

PIA's flight services department gets ISO 9001:2000 certification
KARACHI (May 05 2006): Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) earned another laurel with the award of ISO 9001:2000 certification to its Flight Services Department.

The award was presented at a prestigious ceremony held at the PIA Head Office where ISO 9001 award shield was presented to PIA Chairman Tariq Kirmani by Bureau Veritas Quality International (BVQI) CEO Abul Kalam Siddiqui.

The PIA chairman was briefed about various quality improvement initiatives being undertaken by the PIA under his guidance during 2006.

Kirmani said the process of ISO 9001:2000 Certification of Flight Services Department had resulted in significant improvement in the quality of services.

However, he emphasised that PIA had still a long way to go to achieve its goals of customer service excellence.

He called for adopting best business practices and incorporating more effective controls in key PIA service delivery areas.


Copyright Associated Press of Pakistan, 2006

[AP]

Pakistan International is to start flights to London stansted from Aug 15th.
There will be 2 weekly flights on saturday and tuesdays. On saturdays from karachi and on tuesdays from islamabad via karachi. There will also be a complimentary coach service for all passengers from stansted to the city centre.

[Cyrano]

Could usefully be merged into this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2751647#post2751647) on Stansted (including PIA operations there).

[flystarboy]

Does this mean they are leaving LHR? Or using STN as they cant get any more slots into LHR?

[G-RAES]

Does this mean they are leaving LHR? Or using STN as they cant get any more slots into LHR?

I would imagine it is due to the lack of available slots at LHR. LHR is overrun as it is.

I'm unsure of what the situation is at LGW regarding slots but I am surprised PIA didn't opt for LGW, since in recent times, LGW - Asia has expanded with EY, EK and GF, and the new service to HKG in a few months time with Oasis.

I'm a little unsure of how PIA can provide these services with the current fleet that they have? Do they have any aircraft on order? I am sure those living in the vicinity would love to see a PIA 777 arriving or departing! It would make a nice change from the hundreds of FR and EZY aircraft that STN gets day in day out!

G-RAES

[airhumberside]

Is there a large Pakistani population in North London. Could be a reason for serving STN over LGW

[jack_essex]

I know PIA have only been flying a few weeks from London Stansted but does anyone know how the STN flights are doing? Loads? Passenger interest?
Thanks

[daz211]

got this from an airport news site

(PIA) first flight from Peshawar to Stansted Airport will leave on today. PIA is to operate once a week flight from Peshawar to Stansted via Karachi.Edited for advertising

[scruggs]

Apologies if it's been asked previously. As PIA are now taking deliveries of the 777 aircraft, is it likely their A310 service maybe replaced with a 777 service?

Cheers,
eP

[groundhogbhx]

Yes..........:ok:

[Airline Tycoon]

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1172265885.html

February 23, 2007

The European Union is set to ban most of Pakistan International Airlines' (PIA) fleet from flying to the 27 country bloc because of safety concerns, an EU source said on Friday.

The source said a committee of experts had decided to block all but seven planes of the airline's roughly 40 aircraft fleet from flying to Europe for failing to meet international safety standards.

"Only those seven will be allowed to make flights to European Union countries," the source said. "The rest of the fleet will be blacklisted."

State-run PIA declined to comment.

"We cannot comment on this until we receive an official communication from the EU," a PIA spokesman said in Karachi.

The decision is likely to come into force in about 10 days, the EU source said, once it is made official by the executive European Commission.

The source said the decision could cause disruptions to passengers because the airline had flight connections to Britain, France, Germany, Greece, Italy and the Netherlands.

A Pakistani diplomat in Brussels said the airline was working to address the EU's concerns, which focused on maintenance problems and old aircraft.

"It is for the airline to take steps to alleviate the situation and they are already doing that," the diplomat said.

"I think there is a great effort by PIA and also by the European officials that passengers should not suffer too much from this," he said.

Last year the Commission banned nearly 100 airlines from operating in the bloc, targeting mostly African carriers after a spate of fatal crashes involving European passengers.

In addition, Bulgaria, which joined the EU in January, has suspended five carriers from flying to the rest of the bloc as well as Iceland, Norway and Switzerland until the companies achieve necessary safety standards.

Those carriers are Air Sofia, Bright Aviation Services, Heli Air Services, Skorpion Air and Vega Airlines.

The carriers are not being placed on the EU blacklist.

"The Aviation Safety Committee has expressed its satisfaction from Bulgaria's measures, due to which there are no Bulgarian airline companies included in the blacklist," the Bulgarian transport ministry said in a statement.

(Reuters)

[TURIN]

The seven aircraft not banned I assume are the newer B777s.

Maybe this will focus their minds on keeping those in good condition too.:uhoh:

[AlphaWhiskyRomeo]

And the common aircraft type which those 5 Bulgarian operators fly in the Antonov 12. So I assume the aircraft type is just as important as the operators who are banned.

[apaddyinuk]

What exactly is the issue with the blacklisted aircraft? Is it poor maintanence? Because surely if they cannot look after the rest of their fleet they are hardly going to be able to look after the 777's!

[Whitehatter]

The original kerfuffle was more to do with what was referred to as "cosmetic" issues by the PK brass. Apparently the EU bods were less than happy with the aircraft interiors, which were bordering on being dangerous.

methinks that there would have been a much faster response if it was engineering related. Cosmetic issues can mean a lot of stuff, such as broken seats or constantly inop khazis.

The PK aircraft do get hammered anyway, even the newer 777 fleet has suffered from the less than loving attention of Pakistani children who were trashing the IFE screens within a few days of the first ones being delivered. There have also been serious corrosion issues around the toilets of older planes, and regular infestation problems used to crop up at MAN with rats and the like.

[Liffy 1M]

And the common aircraft type which those 5 Bulgarian operators fly in the Antonov 12. So I assume the aircraft type is just as important as the operators who are banned.

Why should this be? The An-12, like most Russian types, is rugged and built to operate in extreme conditions. There seems no reason why, if well maintained and safely flown, the type would not be safe.

[AlphaWhiskyRomeo]

Yep - And there are still non-EU operators who are flying An-12s in the EU.

I can only assume that they are not happy with Bulgarian maintenance and safety of the An-12s or they have an EASA type issue with the An-12s since Bulgaria joined the EU in January.

[mmeteesside]

It's Bulgaria who have banned the 5 operators, not the EU (not yet anyway)

[apaddyinuk]

Thanks Whitehatter very interesting!!!
I can certainly understand those sentiments, I spent some time flying in and out of various Pakistan airports with a previous airline and indeed the cabins regularly took a beating, I suppose if this is a daily occurance over a matter of decades then indeed I can see how issues would arise!

[XSBaggage]

Does anyone know the plans for the GLA-LHE route? With this banning of the A310s surely the future of the route (for the time being at least) is in doubt? If so it would be a shame because it was good to have the option to fly non-stop (although I haven't yet used the route myself).

XSB

[Dr747]

I remember Flying to LHE from LHR(july 2004) and we were stranded on LHR for two days because of some engine trouble with the old 747 and PIA had to fly in people from KHI to fix it. One source from the airline said that they will be in trouble if the UK engineers had seen the aeroplane so they had to call the staff from KHI.(statement was off the record in our hotel.)
I reckon its about time that they change their ageing fleet. I have found their service to be better than most of the airlines serving LHE from LHR(other airlines are indirect offcourse).
PS has anyone got the email address to send a complaint to the Emirates( for THE WORST flight experiences that i ever had, including delays and lots more)
cheers

[Epsilon minus]

EU To Ban Most Pakistan Airlines Planes
February 23, 2007
The European Union is set to ban most of Pakistan International Airlines' (PIA) fleet from flying to the 27 country bloc because of safety concerns, an EU source said on Friday.

The source said a committee of experts had decided to block all but seven planes of the airline's roughly 40 aircraft fleet from flying to Europe for failing to meet international safety standards.

"Only those seven will be allowed to make flights to European Union countries," the source said. "The rest of the fleet will be blacklisted."

State-run PIA declined to comment.

"We cannot comment on this until we receive an official communication from the EU," a PIA spokesman said in Karachi.

The decision is likely to come into force in about 10 days, the EU source said, once it is made official by the executive European Commission.

The source said the decision could cause disruptions to passengers because the airline had flight connections to Britain, France, Germany, Greece, Italy and the Netherlands.

A Pakistani diplomat in Brussels said the airline was working to address the EU's concerns, which focused on maintenance problems and old aircraft.

"It is for the airline to take steps to alleviate the situation and they are already doing that," the diplomat said.

"I think there is a great effort by PIA and also by the European officials that passengers should not suffer too much from this," he said.

Last year the Commission banned nearly 100 airlines from operating in the bloc, targeting mostly African carriers after a spate of fatal crashes involving European passengers.

In addition, Bulgaria, which joined the EU in January, has suspended five carriers from flying to the rest of the bloc as well as Iceland, Norway and Switzerland until the companies achieve necessary safety standards.

Those carriers are Air Sofia, Bright Aviation Services, Heli Air Services, Skorpion Air and Vega Airlines.

The carriers are not being placed on the EU blacklist.

"The Aviation Safety Committee has expressed its satisfaction from Bulgaria's measures, due to which there are no Bulgarian airline companies included in the blacklist," the Bulgarian transport ministry said in a statement.

[TURIN]

The search function is your friend.....

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=224270

[jmc757]

Well it seems that Britain and Germany have now officially enforced the ruling that PIA can only fly 777s to their countries.

"Old PIA Planes Banned" (Sky News) (http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1254120,00.html)

Are their A310s and 747s really in that bad a state? Will this affect operations much, I thought quite a few of their UK routes 310s and 747s?

[DONTTELLTHEPAX]

Will they now drop the STN route or use 777's ?

[fox niner]

The official EU press release....

http://ec.europa.eu/transport/air-ban/list_en.htm

[Centre cities]

Having cancelled the last Sat and Sun A310 fights to Birmingham BHX todays ( Mon ) flight is scheduled to operate on a 777 instead of the A310.

Centre Cities

[MAN777]

Any news on how PIA are coping with this situation ? I presume they must be cancelling non 777 flights or chartering in others like the recent MAS 777. Is LHR all 747 ?

[point5]

EGLL is B772, B773 and the occasional B747.

[groundhogbhx]

BHX now showing Sunday Monday and Thursday with the 777

[DONTTELLTHEPAX]

What is STN showing ???

[legalize]

Well if the airlines struggling their chairman aint doing to bad:

CHAIRMAN PIAC - Kirmani's Salary Package ISLAMABAD: Defence Minister Rao Sikandar Iqbal shared with senators the salary package of PIA chairman Tariq Kirmani, which showed that Kirmani was the most expensive employee of Shaukat Aziz government when PIA was crumbling under Rs 4.1 billion domestic and $ 454 million foreign loans. Defence Minister told the Upper House during the question hour that PIA has also borrowed over $300 million from the Citibank to sustain its operations.

But on the other hand after going through the details of package given to Kirmani, it does not look PIA was running in losses or it owed massive loans to both local and foreign banks.

His basic salary is Rs 322,000 per month and he entitled 26 perks and allowances - including drivers, medical bills, traveling, free utilities, insurance for members of family, two cars and furniture making him one of the most expensive employees of PIA running on borrowed loans.

http://www.palpa.org.pk/images/imga1.jpgKirmani, in addition to salary is getting Rs 155,000 as house rent, 10 percent of basic salary as entertainment allowance, 20 percent of annual basic salary as leave fare assistance, Rs 25 per month as cost of living allowance, Rs 200 as dearness allowance, Rs 200 technical allowance per month, Rs 4,000 servant allowance, two company owned and maintained cars (1600CC, 1300CC).

http://www.palpa.org.pk/images/imga2.jpg

He has two official drivers and each is given Rs 6000 per month by PIA. There is no limit on the fuel expenses; PIA also pays the bill of domestic electricity, phone, mobile phone, domestic gas, water and conservancy, reimbursement of entrance fee of a club and monthly subscription for two approved clubs.
He is entitled to have four air conditioners from PIA account, refrigerator, deep freezer, cooking range and generator and has the right to get them replaced.
http://www.palpa.org.pk/images/imga3.jpgKirmani is also entitled to performance-based reward equivalent to four basic salaries per annum (Rs 1.3 million). He will also get Rs 25,000 in the name of painting of his house. As far as furnishing of his residence is concerned, he is entitled to fixed amount of Rs 150,000 as residential furnishing; minor repairs and maintenance of residence involving actual expenditures, security cover at all times both while mobile and at residence, medical benefits include full treatment for parents, self, spouse and children. On voluntary retirement before completion of term of service, he will get one month gross salary of Rs 330,000 for each year of service with maximum of 20 months salary. When he attains the age of 60, he will be entitled to 30 days gross salary for each year of service completed. He will also get pension. As he was MD Pakistan State Oil (PSO) before his elevation to PIA chairman, his new contract includes a clause that PSO will transfer all funds accumulated in respect of long term benefits of Tariq Kirmani to PIA, which will continue to maintain and manage these until his appointment at PIA. For the purpose of computation of period in respect of any benefit, his period of employment with PSO shall be added to his employment with PIA.
Defence Minister Rao Sikandar also told the House that on the other hand, PIA had taken a loan of Rs 4.1 billion from local banks to help PIA operate in the country.
Source: The News (August 3, 2006)

PAK Rupees

US Dollars
Per Month
Per Annum
Per Month
Per Annum
900,000/-
10,800,000/-
15,050/-
180,604/-

[bee4]

Any idea when the IST operation is planned to start with 777?

[groundhogbhx]

Looks like PIA have brought in some wet leases to get them out of trouble. BHX is back to a 310 from today and it looks like it may have been in before with W5.

[Stanstedeye]

The Saturday flight is cancelled.

[Ian Brooks]

New B777 on approach to Manchester this time on delivery

Ian

[MAN777]

Heres the new bird


http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=5934421

[crewmeal]

AP BHX an appropiate registration, wonder if it will ever operate into BHX???

[MAN777]

I have heard that PIA have leased a Turkish registered A310 (not Turkish Airlines) to do the BHX flights until further notice.

[MAN777]

Interesting article

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=af41eaf4-b759-481f-9b4a-77c91768d2f7&

[TURIN]

According to the PIA flt crew they are taking up options on 4 777s. AP-BHX is on a 10 year lease. The next -300ER is due for delivery next January.

PIA have reduced their planned MAN operation from 27 to 12 flts/week.

Looks like the message is getting through too as many of the ongoing problems at last are being addressed.

[XSBaggage]

Does nobody have any news on the GLA flights yet and what PIA are doing about them?

XSB

[GW76]

GLA flights operating twice weekly as before but with slightly different timings and now operated with 777's. ( deps Wed and Fri )

[OltonPete]

Just as BHX gets the 777 scheduled there are rumours of the EU easing
the ban on the 743 & 310.

Quote taken from another forum: -

"Five 747s and six 310s will be cleared, FRA will be online by mid july".

There was a link to a news article but when I checked it went on about
Indonesia :confused:

[RingwaySam]

The 747s coming back has been around for quite a while. I'll believe it when I see it - Will be good to see them back at Manchester though.

Sam

[CVTDog]

Pete

"Just as BHX gets the 777 scheduled there are rumours of the EU easing
the ban on the 743 & 310"


Can you give me some background on this ban please - I thought there was technical (runway length) reasons for not using 747's at BHX ?

[OltonPete]

CVTDog

Sorry for the confusion, I was referring to the general restriction imposed by the EU due maintenance standards on the 74M, 743 & 310.

There is no other restriction in force other than the usual restricted payload one for the 747 at BHX. PIA in fact started with the 747 but of
course it only went to Copenhagen as first port of call. I am not sure of all the technical issues surrounding the 747 at BHX but as far as I know PIA have never flown them direct or have or had any intention to do so.

Also the change to the 777 is not imposed so I am told and will remain
after the EU ban is lifted on the 310 if the quote in one paper (today) is correct.

The intention is three a week to start, four in October and 5 a week by Jan 08 but the timetable does not show all of this as yet.

Pete

[newscaster]

Moscow, Athens, Colombo and Singapore have been suspended, most foreign F/A's to be sacked.

EU allow three 747-300, two 747-200M and six A310-300 to fly to Europe from July 14th.

[The SSK]

The latest revision of the EU blacklist (http://www.europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/07/1790&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en) sees operational restrictions on Pakistan International lifted, as well as those on Blue Wing of Surinam.

They say nice things about TAAG Angola and Indonesia but are not ready to lift any bans yet.

[Superpilot]

Just to clarify...only PIA's A310s and 747s were on the list.

[newscaster]

Topic title need sto be chnaged to Airlines from Airways.

PIA evaluating Newcastle or East Midlands according to a PIA staffer at LHR.

[inducedrag]

Pakistan International Airlines is selling its take-off and landing slots at John F. Kennedy Airport New York and O’Hare International Airport Chicago completely to the Turkish Airways (TA), The News has learnt.

A top PIA official on condition of anonymity confided to this correspondent, saying that in addition to the recent MoU signed by PIA with TA which dents PIA’s business in more than one way, PIA is selling its take-off and landing slots at New York and Chicago completely to the TA. The deal is under wraps for now and also means that in case PIA wants to buy back these slots it would need to pay many times the amount paid to the TA, the official added. The PIA board of directors however is yet to be taken into confidence on the selling of slots issue.

[newscaster]

This deal wont through major objection from PIA staff including pilots and Pak CAA, also Turkey not happy with negative response, infact they are shocked at the reaction, according to some Turk papers quoting TK officials.

IF it goes through then:

PK Amsterdam, Frankfurt, Barcelona and Milan services will also be dropped, there are rumors of Birmingham and Leeds going as well, possibly Paris too. To be resumed Houston and possibly Male/Maldives and new destination to start Sydney.

TK will end their new Dhaka route and begin c/s on PK to there plus Mumbai, Kathmandu, Male and Colombo, they will also launch Lahore.

[Random Flyer]

This deal wont through major objection from PIA staff including pilots and Pak CAA, also Turkey not happy with negative response, infact they are shocked at the reaction, according to some Turk papers quoting TK officials.

IF it goes through then:

PK Amsterdam, Frankfurt, Barcelona and Milan services will also be dropped, there are rumors of Birmingham and Leeds going as well, possibly Paris too. To be resumed Houston and possibly Male/Maldives and new destination to start Sydney.

TK will end their new Dhaka route and begin c/s on PK to there plus Mumbai, Kathmandu, Male and Colombo, they will also launch Lahore.


I too have seen this rumour, although it was more a near pull-out of Europe, with only four routes continuing. Everything else is supposedly going via Istanbul with Turkish Airlines.

[Chitty]

i dont think pia will pull out of birmingham and leeds because thay are doing very well and very profitable

[HOODED]

I wouldn't be too sure Chitty, Leeds is certainly profitable but is only 2 flights a week having reduced from 3 due to noise issues when the flight is late. Sadly this is more often than not these days.

LBA/BHX can be moved to MAN without too many problems other than upsetting the local Pakistani populations. They have become used to being able to fly from their local airport.

It could be a mistake however, LBA was only started by PIA after another airline set up and showed PIA where most of its' MAN pax were coming from! If they pull LBA and BHX then local travel agents may look to find an alternate airline to continue the route.

Just a thought.....

[CabinCrewe]

I fully expect PK at LBA to be a dim and distant memory in about 6 -12months. The specifics of LBA profitibility are very much in question along with rest of their network. The protesteth -too much quotes from the UK manager will come back to haunt....

[rodchester]

I dont think you can compare leeds PIA service with that of bhx since the BHX operation is twice the size and uses larger aircraft. Birmingham has one of the largest pakistani communities in europe and has a larger population than manchester and Leeds.. So I dont think PIA will be in a hurry to drope the route ,not saying that it could not happen.From what i understand bhk-ISB atracts 7000-9000 monthly and has almost the same amount of flights than the Man operation.There has being no official word from PIA about this deal with turkish airlines on its webside. It just media speculation. Time will tell!

[The Hitcher]

I thought those dodgy chancers had been banned from UK airspace on account of the aircraft being in such a poor state

[Ian Brooks]

From CAA figures for December

BHX/ISB 8100 Pax
MAN/ISB 13000 pax
quite a big difference in pax numbers
Don`t forget North Lancashire has a very large community also places like Huddersfield which are actually easier to get to Manchester than Leeds

Ian B

[rpmac]

Huddersfield to MAN approx 41 miles. Huddersfield to LBA 22 miles approx. Burnley too is less distance to LBA . - avoids the congested motorways around Manchester. easier? Cheaper on fuel and less time by choosing LBA.

[OltonPete]

BHX's figures for ISB are closer to Heathrow's rather than Manchester.

December was quite low for BHX as the 4th weekly did not restart until
Boxing Day.

September 2010 - LHR 10358 and BHX 8684
August 2010 - LHR 10635 and BHX 9340
July 2010 - LHR 11048 and BHX 9878

How about closing Heathrow and moving the flights to BHX,
get a few quid for the slots - only joking guys n Gals:E

Pete

[newscaster]

PIA are to resume 747 service ISB-MAN route from 13 March to 25 March on some flights.

[Ian Brooks]

rpmac
Closer maybe but journey probably easier to Manchester and direct train service from Huddersfield to Manchester airport also
Leeds airport is a difficult journey by road from most places whereas Manchester has motorways from most directions and unless you are very lucky congestion not that bad except maybe rush hour

Ian B

[crewmeal]

PIA are to resume 747 service ISB-MAN route from 13 March to 25 March on some flights.

Whose 747's will they be using? I thought their 747-300's were banned from European airspace because of poor maintenance standards a few years ago.

[bobleeds]

"Closer maybe but journey probably easier to Manchester and direct train service from Huddersfield to Manchester airport also"

OK - but then factor in the cost of rail tickets for travellers, and quite likely members of their families who will be greeting or seeing off their family, and even with current fuel prices the train becomes economically a non starter.

[Ian Brooks]

Judging by the hundreds of Yorkshire taxis and how full the trains are etc obvoiously is a starter


Ian B

[johnnychips]

Ian - that is true! Not so many years ago I used to quite often get a flight from BRU that arrived at MAN just after a PIA 747 from Pakistan. It was a race to run with hand-luggage only to the car park before taxis carrying PIA passengers started streaming out of the airport to destinations in Manchester, Lancashire, West and South Yorkshire. Obviously there were loads of private cars as well but I couldn't tell where they came from.

If I was a bit delayed, it was like a convoy along the M67 and the Woodhead Pass A628 - you can see where I live - and S Yorks is not exactly known as a great area of Pakistan-ancestry people. At one stage Shaheen had a vague idea of flying to DSA.

I just wonder if the LBA service introduced since that time has reduced that mad hour!

[LBIA]

Well i think it must have eased some congestion. As LBA gets that mad hour when the PIA, Airbus A310-300 is about or when the annual Hajj flights operate to/from Jeddah

For every 1 person that fly’s on a service they must be at least between 4 or 5 family members that attends the airport to watch a flight either arrive or depart from Islamabad. This causes no end of problems with the long line of awaiting taxi's and other cars that are coming in and out of the short stay car parks all at once.

The same thing use to happen when LBA had flights by Shaheen Air & Swefly to Pakistan in the past as well...

[newscaster]

All of PIA fleet have been cleared by EU to operate there.

[newscaster]

TK deal is off now as MD has resigned under pressure by employees protesting for cancellation of the TK MoU and his ouster.

[crewmeal]

So what now for PIA? staff cutbacks? routes now being chopped? The whole company needs completely reorganising to cut it's losses

[newscaster]

All stays the same, thats why they ousted him and have even threatened to do the same again i.e protest violently and disrupt business if there is ever talk of reviving TK MoU.