IFR for the everday pilot in GA

[multi_engined]

I would just like to get an opinion on whether you think it is worth studying/training for the australian MECIR straight after the CPL rather than just heading directly north to seek work straight after the checkride kind of thing... If you just plan to go and hoot around in the bush up north for a few years to rack up hours! I hear that an IR is $$ expensive to keep current. How often or valuable is an IFR rating for the typical top end pilot in Australia compared to doing all the IFR training once you seriously contemplate joining a larger carrier or operator that requires this training?..

[404 Titan]

A similar topic dealing with initial twin ratings was discussed at length recently and also a to IFR ratings. Try looking here: Twin rating before or after CPL (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=220962)

[disco_air]

Get it all done before you go anywhere, if possible. That is, CPL, MECIR and ATPL subjects.

This way you dont have to take time off in a job to come back to a city to do them, you start the "renewal counter" early and you wont be held back getting jobs requiring a MECIR if they pop up while you're out in the bush.

May not (most likely not) have to use the MECIR at your first job, but its just a matter of renewing it.

...Disco

[404 Titan]

multi_engined

As I have stated in previous posts it is a waste of time and money getting an initial twin endorsement or IFR rating before you get your first job. It is a furphy to say that you should get an IFR rating while you are still learning to fly because some operators require “X” number of renewals. This will be the least of your worries when trying to compete for these types of jobs. I didn’t get my initial twin endorsement and IF rating until I had over 3000 hours and the number of renewals never was a problem. Renewals are not the obstacle some would lead you to believe. The most common obstacle encounted by those trying to apply for jobs with for example the RFDS or Police Air Wings of various states is night experience, turbine time and twin time. If you work on these the others generally fall into place.

As a general rule I wouldn’t bother doing anything that isn’t required to achieve that first job. That includes initial twin endorsement, MECIR and ATPL subjects. Wait until you have that first job and then as you start getting better jobs and more experience then go out and get them in the most beneficial and tax efficient order possible. By doing this they become tax deductible which is effectively going to mean they will be about 20% cheaper. Use you time and money wisely. Secondly do some of this add on training like twin and IF rating closer to where you are working. Just because you are living and working out in the sticks doesn’t mean there isn’t a flying school near you. These are where the jobs are and getting that next step up is all about networking. You would be surprised how many people get jobs this way.

I have been in this industry some 20 years and it is the same today as it was in 1986. By using your time and money sensibly you will be much better off later.

[The Bunglerat]

This question has been asked often on PPRuNe, and always elicits the same responses: Do it / Don't do it.

My suggestion would simply be to ask yourself the following question: Will it get me a job?

If the answer is "yes," then do it. And if the answer is "no," then don't.

I've spent many years as an Instructor specialising in IFR training. Trust me when I tell you that, unless you have unlimited funds at your disposal, it's not worth parting with the hard-earned cash to obtain the Rating unless you have the cash to maintain it. I can't think of anything much more dangerous than an IFR pilot who is both inexperienced AND barely IFR current. Not that I'm trying to blow it out of proportion, as flying IFR is really no big deal at all - provided you're doing it on a regular basis. Nevertheless, it's amazing how lazy and undisciplined a VFR pilot can be - yet still manage to get away with it most of the time. No such luck for the IFR pilot. You get it right, or you could well end up as the leading story on the 6PM news. As I said, if you're fortunate enough to land a job where you can put the Rating to use straight away, or have the financial means to fly IFR regularly at your own expense, then go for it. Otherwise, save your money and wait until you've clocked up some experience and are more likely to get a return on the investment. Or you can do it anyway, followed by NOT using the Rating for the next 12 months until your first renewal - and then be prepared to part with another large sum to undergo remedial training so that you can pass the renewal. There'll be plenty of flying schools only too happy to take your money. Sorry, I don't mean to sound cynical, but this is often the most common scenario: Inexperienced CPL gets Rating, CPL can't afford to maintain Rating, employer won't give him/her the opportunity to use Rating, knowledge and skills are never fully consolidated and said Rating becomes nothing more than a stamp on the licence that looks good but has no practical value... I trust you get my drift. But it's your money - and your call.

[ReportReady]

Some very good advice above, I have to agree with 404 and Bunglerat.
From personal experience, I didn't get my initial twin till 900 hrs as I had no use for it until now. I dont yet have my ME CIR as it's all VFR. :)
The flight schools will try and tell you otherwise. In the end, it's your choice

[disco_air]

All very valid points and agree almost entirely BUT:

All of my mates i made thru the VFR S/E Charter scene all wished they had got it done before (ATPLs too), because:

1) they then had to try and fit in time off while at a job AND get together money to do it (in that part of GA thats quite difficult)

2) trying to get back into study routine for ATPLs etc sucks while youre working, make it easier for yourself

3) they could have applied for positions available in reputable twin charter companies but held back because no MECIR! had all the other requirements though

If i didnt have mine all done before i went bush i would and could not be in the position I am now, which many (including myself) consider to be very fortunate. As it happened, my course was a comprehensive package that gave me ME CIR, CPL (after ME CIR) and ATPLs in the one go, so its not like I gave the whole doing it/not doing it as much thought as if i did them separately.

AND why must a ME CIR be treated like something you need a few hours before you do? Yes I absolutely agree it would be easier with the skills you only consolidate with a few hundred hours of on the job experience. BUT in many countries other than australia, you cant even hold a CPL without an instrument rating.

I respect the previous opinions and think they are very valid, my experience in the industry is limited, but this is what I have gathered through my (perhaps more recent) experience.

...Disco

[404 Titan]

disco_air

I can see your point of view but:
1) they then had to try and fit in time off while at a job AND get together money to do it (in that part of GA thats quite difficult)
If you had the money prior to getting your first job and you are sensible with your money as I have advised, you should have it after. If you didn’t then you are going to have to borrow the money either way. I had it invested away earning 17% pa for about four years. That plus the tax breaks and the fact I was working for a flying school and got the training at cost, saved me a fortune when the time came to spending it on more training.
2) trying to get back into study routine for ATPLs etc sucks while youre working, make it easier for yourself
If your aim is the regionals or the majors you had better get use to all the study while at the same time trying to work. Yes it sucks but it is a reality of this job and the sooner young pilots get use to it the better. They will fair much better down the track when they have to do it just to keep that dream job they have always wanted.
3) they could have applied for positions available in reputable twin charter companies but held back because no MECIR! had all the other requirements though
If you use your time wisely this will rarely be a problem. Generally these better jobs only start becoming a viable proposition once you start reaching certain hour levels. Pre-empt these jobs by doing these ratings etc as the time approaches. As I advised, use your time wisely.:ok:

[disco_air]

Mostly agree but...

If you use your time wisely this will rarely be a problem. Generally these better jobs only start becoming a viable proposition once you start reaching certain hour levels. Pre-empt these jobs by doing these ratings etc as the time approaches. As I advised, use your time wisely.

...would not have applied to me. Nor several of my mates recently gone from S/E VFR to M/E IFR. Be prepared for opportunity knocking. Time flies. CIR - 3 to 4 weeks, Renewal - 3 to 4 days.

Again like i said in my first post:

Get it all done before you go anywhere, if possible

Obviously money is that horrible governing factor. :{

...Disco

[ReportReady]

Least we agree to disagree. I'd say for some, doing it all at the beginning (MECIR, ATPL subjects) works, for others leaving it till later works as well. Different personal circumstances probably dictate whats best for the individual.