How much to borrow???

[jonnyhock]

I am currently looking into the possibility of training for the JAA ATPL (frozen). The school that i have looked at in the US, Orlando Flight Training are offering 0 hours to ATPL frozen for around £26,000. I will be getting a bank loan for this so I was wondering if anyone could advise me on how much to borrow? i understand that there are extra costs that can arise but the last thing that i want is to borrow, say £30,000 and then have to go back to the bank and beg them for more! Can anyone advise me on how much extra expenditure to plan for? Any advice on this or general ATPL courses in the US would be greatly appreciated.

[femaleWannabe]

Have you included accommodation and food etc? What about examiner fees and license issue? Or is all that within the £26k?

[dllcooper]

Orlando has i think been accepted as the cheapest flight training in the world JAA/JAR. I have heard from strange reports of aircraft falling out the sky though?

Generally, after exam fees and living costs etc.. i would budget on around £35,000 as a basic level.

As with everything off here, it is someone elses opinion. I have been researching this for months now and have decided todo it locally at Bournemouth, whilst working and doing hour building abroad. Choices are endless and prices can quickly mushroom with extra hours and retakes (MEIR exam fee 1200 + aircraft hire)!!

Type rating could be your next hurdle aswell.

best of luck and hope it works out with the loan.:8

[markflyer6580]

You will allways need more than you think,don't forget you need to stay current after the training is over whilst on the job search.(unless you do an instructors rating,but then you need to budget for that:eek: )

Type rating could be your next hurdle aswell.


Only if you have no morals:E

[genius747]

Exam fees FAAPPL written & practical, JAACPL (14written exam fees at 60GBP each) and skill test fee, JAAME exam fee, JAAMEIR exam fee

Visa Fees, TSA Fees, Flights to and from the USA. Accomodation expences, food and living, and drinking.

Possibly need to buy a car in Florida, tax, insurance, title and tag. or else taxi's, or if you are really fit and don't mind sweating a bicycle.

When you are hour building if you plan to fly around the states, fuel charges (above what your school will reimburse) ramp fees/ overnight parking fees possibly. Away from base accomodation also if you plan to stay in different places during your hour building.

Also your FAAMEIR conversion cost. At least 7,000GBP.

YOU CANNOT GET A JAA MEIR IN THE U.S.A.

Your Faa IR pack, books, manuals, vfr/ifr charts, headset (expensive one!), rulers, protractors, kneeboard, yolk clip, chart markers, whiz wheel (CRP-5 etc..)about 120GBP another expensive bit of kit! and I'm sure there is more but this is just off the top of my head.

There is some big and small costs here, all just very quick and very rushed, I don't even have time to re-read my post so I'm sure there is mis-spelling everywhere, but I hope it gives you an idea of extra/hidden charges.

Lets not forget those Fuel and Insurance surcharges everywhere also, with that in mind it's worth noting the price for a barrell of oil hit an all time high of $75 today. EXPECT TO PAY FOR THAT TOO!!

PM me for more info. I really hope I'm not putting you off going for the fATPL, just be under no illusions of the cost. IT WILL.....repeat W I L L....be higher than you budget for.

All the best.

[mcgoo]

genius, this course includes the atpl exam course distance learning at bournemouth and the faa ir and jaa conversion in the uk

[nakbin]

Whilst on the topic of extra costs, I'd be interested to find out what people who have completed training up to fATPL (especially some of it in the US) have done about insurance:

- health insurance whilst in the states
- life insurance (especially if someone else is a guarantor for your bank loan)
- loss of licence insurance after qualification
- any other additional costs

[newbie008]

I'd be wary of the us mate. Id stick to uk for training - RT etc is much better and im sure you'll learn a lot more here than there. Up to you but id never do training over there. Although cheap u get what u pay for. Id go to oxford bournemouth or stapleford

[scroggs]

Really, Newbie008? Given this post (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=223215) of yours, on what grounds are you qualified to advise others what to do?

To all: be very careful what credence you give to advice offered here. A very great deal of it is given by people who have little or no more experience than you do, and give it simply to boost their confidence in their own choices and/or prejudices. Many, like Newbie above, even try to give you advice when they have yet to start any kind of commercial flight training!

Things to remember: read the sticky thread at the top of the forum. All of it! Talk to any schools that you think you may be interested in. Visit them if you can. Get chapter on verse on what is included in the quoted price and, more importantly, what isn't - which you'll have to find the money for somehow. Check that any money you are required to pay in advance is held in an escrow account, or is in some other way protected should the school go down the tubes - as they do! And they have taken many, many wannabes' money with them. If you are considering training overseas, check what visa(s) you need and how you go about getting them - and what the ramifications are if your training should go over its allotted timespan. Don't take any BS about not needing what you know to be the correct visa; if you are found to be in a country under false pretenses, you could end up being prosecuted and deported - and losing your course and money. And airlines don't take kindly to pilots who have 'Not welcome in X country' in their passports!

There's a lot to think about - far more than I've indicated here. Don't take advice from people who have no idea what they're talking about. If you get it wrong as a result, it could cost you a very great deal of money - and your aviation career.

As a tip, check the posting history of anyone who offers you advice - click on their user name and then on 'Find more posts by XXXX'. You can learn a lot that way!

Scroggs

[jonnyhock]

Hello,

thank you all for your responses, they are all greatly appreciated.

As far as i know the course at OFT includes the 2 month ppl course (including Night, IMC,multi and accomodation for the 2 months) ATPL ground school inc exam fees, FAA IR, JAA CPL Multi, JAA IR Convesion and MCC.

Genius: Can you tell me what the 'JAA MEIR' is? it sounds quite important but i havent heard of it in any of the material i have been sent!

I have noted that a few people suggest 'type rating' after completing the ATPL course. i expect that this means training on a particular aircraft type? would'nt whoever i work for train me on this when i commence employment? (or is this rather naive of me?!?)

thanks again all.

[genius747]

JAA MEIR is the JAA Mulit Engine Instrument rating.

You must sit this exam in Europe. No school in the USA is approved to conduct this exam. Additionally a minimum of 15hrs training MUST be completed in Europe before you can legally sit your JAA MEIR flight test.


G74

[Stumpyotoole]

Hi all,

AA// Can anyone advise good banks or loan companies that you have experience or knowledge with who would be able to provide full £65k for flight training purposes? :ugh:

BB// I have seen previous threads in particular BA Connect and Flybe MAPS schemes regarding reduced slaries (for those on cadet schemes), I cannot find this information anymore, if anyone could advise details of these salaries I would be most greatful.:{

Cheers,

Dan.:p

[captainhopeful]

Hello Guys!

I'm a university student looking at training for my fATPL.
I've been reading these forums for a number of years (since BA had a sponsored pilot training scheme if you must know! :} ). I'm after integrated training, and it seems that OAT and CTC are the way to go, jobs wise. So while getting a place at CTC would be amazing... you can't hold out for a 2% chance. I'm looking at my financial options for going to OAT :uhoh: .

From what I've read, £74k seems a realistic figure to save for. I have a job in a call centre which means I'll have zero student debt (except to the government) and a modest amount of savings. So 2 or 3 years flat-out work with all the overtime should get me the £25-30k I'm looking to save :cool: .

Am I right in thinking that HSBC in Oxford will still loan £50k with a parental guarantee? Is that guarantee property?
Also does the OAT course qualify for the government's career development loan, and would a bank lend that when there's a £50k debt elsewhere?

Yes I KNOW there's a search button at the top, and yes I've used it. But I think it's high time this issue be raised again and I hope it leads to some interesting discussion.

PJ :ok:

[wbryce]

I think you should consider all options before planning for an integrated course...

Think about this: Work in your call centre while using your monthly wages to get your PPL (2-3 lessons a week, this gives you something to look forward too each week and passes time very quickly...fastest 9 months of my life). Continue to use your wage to hour build upto 150 hours (with 100hrs P1 - your pre-entry CPL hour requirements) while at the same time either saving for a full time ground school course or reading distance learning books.

After you have achieved this you need to pay for your CPL/IR MCC which will be the best part of 20k, you can then take out a small bank loan against a career development loan.....We could all go and get a huge loan and complete our fATPL license in the fastest means possible but I would rather spend two extra years paying for it myself than spending 10 years paying a loan back. Put a modular student in the bar next to an integrated student with 70k of debt on his shoulders and see whos smiling stress free with his fATPL license...I would only do the integrated route if I had sponsorship/financial status to do so.

Total Modular - £45k average
Total Integrated - £75k average
Both routes gives you the exact same license for the exact same job apart from one route costs 30k more.

[Re-Heat]

Total Modular - £45k average
Total Integrated - £75k average
To the modular of course you have to add the opportunity cost for the lower chance of securing a job. Bryce - I don't think that is the advice for which Capt Hopeful is looking. The economics of modular do not add up IMHO where not using same provider and doing the course fulltime.

Capt Hopeful - are you realistically adding in living expenses etc to the savings figures? You should bear in mind that although SLC debt is "off balance sheet" from our perspective as graduates - being repaid directly from salary - it is however included within assessment from a bank's perspective.

I assume that as a graduate you will not be seeking to work in the call centre for those 2-3 years, and should consider thinking about the backup plan - i.e. a qualification perhaps, or something to occupy the time and prevent you spending the cash! Chartered Accountant perhaps?

I believe HSBC have restricted their lendings and will only look at those accepted on the courses.

[blueplume]

johnnyhock,

take the advice offered by scroggs. When you have decided add 30% and three weeks to everything. I mean everything. Many people have been fortunate enough not to have the school fold around their ears but still found themselves unable to finish because they ran out of funds at the last moment. Very few finish in the adverstised minimum time. That's advertising.
As scroggs says, any decent school will place your money in an escrow account and will pay you back should you decide to break off training or the school goes bust. As always, if it seems too good to be true it is just that.
But when you have made up your mind and have found the school for you, enjoy it, it will be some of the most rewarding and interesting time you will spend. I don't agree entirely with the view that the US of A is no good for training. After all, hour building is also training and that can be done perfectly well where it's cheap. There is also nothing wrong with obtaining your PPL in the states and converting. The basics are all the same, the air is the same and the planes are the same. Might as well learn how to control an aircraft for cheap.
Have fun.

[captainhopeful]

Thanks for the replies...

Capt Hopeful - are you realistically adding in living expenses etc to the savings figures?

Sorry I forgot to mention that for that particular job I'd be able to live with my parents (and I have no other outgoings). I've been looking at getting an airport job such as dispatch (to stave away the boredom etc.) but they seem very low paid.

If all goes to plan I'd have an Avionics degree - but I do *not* want to get a job in engineering. Do you have any other job suggestions?

PJ

[Re-Heat]

With the engineering job market as it is (insufficient people for the jobs being offered, driving salaries up), I would lump it for the higher salary, as to be honest you won't save much at all in despatch - and you will be a graduate arguably wasting skill to some extent.

Racal/Smiths - speak to Royal Aeronautical Society careers department for advice - you might find things you much prefer even within engineering.

Otherwise - accountant to engineering firms/auditor/consultant - what class of degree do you expect to achieve?

[captainhopeful]

It would be nice to say I'm aiming for a first - not going to happen.
If I work hard enough I think I can get a 2:1.

If "engineer" has the same meaning as "someone who fixes the plane when it's gone tech" I wouldn't mind doing that, and there would probably be positions near my parents' home in Manchester.

The problem is, looking at a job like that, my degree will not be qualification enough to go and "fix the plane". I would have to start from the bottom, salary matching, and that is not ideal for saving. Whereas in some sort of standard office work, especially if management is involved, salaries can reach low twenties with just a few weeks of training - i.e. having a degree shows that you have a small amount of brain and are willing to work hard, but the subject doesn't interest the company.

PJ

[portsharbourflyer]

Just wondering why you wouldn't want to work in Engineering? I think you will find general office/ managerial work even less exciting than engineering. At graduate level most engineering jobs are based in research or design/development (apologies for the generalistion) and will be still mainly office based. You should know that in terms of maintenance type jobs then that is a separate stream of training traditionally based around an HND level of qualification and requires study for the CAA (assume EASA now) licensed engineers exams, normally this route is entered via an apprentice type scheme; not generally an area where a graduate would start their career (I do not mean this in an elitist sense, studying for the CAA Eng licensed exams is not an easy process and just as academically challenging as a degree).

I must admit when I finished my engineering degree, jobs in engineering never really appealed to me, however although starting salaries for graduate engineers are not particularly brilliant, it is obvious that you haven't checked out contract rates for engineering.

Get your self 2 to 3 years engineering experience in the avionics field (consider going into reliability or safety these have good contract potential), you won't necessarily save alot in this time, but you will gain the credit rating to borrow to do the training whichever route you choose. (Infact with an avionics degree you may be able to get into an airline engineering department doing reliability analysis).

After your training with three years eng experience you should be able to go back to the industry as a contractor earning between £25 to £35 an hour. Hence be able to clear your debts in a few years rather than a decade. The avionics/electronics sector is generally short of engineers which means it should be possible to get into contracting with relatively low experience (traditionally most contract agencies require 5 yrs experience).