DXB Tower RT

[ruserious]

I departed Dubai yesterday as usual in the middle of the night. It was pretty quiet by normal standards, but the controller on the tower frequency used the terms, "expedite", "immediate" and "late landing clearance" several times, during our relatively short time on his frequency. In fact I can't think of one transmission he made which did not contain one of these terms. The closest any aircraft was on approach was 1500' on line up (don't you love TCAS) and the latest landing clearance was given at 900'.
Is there some way we can get these terms used only when they are appropriate. You can go to pretty well any other busy (er) airport and never hear them used. It detracts from their utility to use them all the time, as pilots will think the phrases are normal and the one day you want them to do something urgently, they will be less liable to think something is REALLY urgent.
In this controllers case it made him sound self important and slightly stressed, which is never a good thing to hear in a controllers voice.
Of course not all of the controllers here do this, but it is really apparent, that it happens more than anywhere else.

[SecurID]

don't you love TCAS

I never thought I'd see the day when someone wrote that! Oh, you mean the on board Traffic alerting system?! Oh, now I understand! Thought you meant something else... :}

[my hands are tied]

Maybe at other airports pilots don't think that because their company is paying a landing fee it gives them a time share right to the runway. :confused:

If high speed taxiways were actually used as high speed taxi ways for exiting the runway rather than coming to a virtual standstill prior to vacating the rwy, pilots didn't try imposing their own wake seperation when following another heavy on dep, didn't stop on the rwy side of a holding point and report rwy vacated and generally took heed of the request on the ATIS for minimum rwy occupancy time then maybe ATC wouldn't feel the need to cajole tfc with requests to expedite etc.

There have been a large number of unecessary go arounds due to tfc being very slow in vacating the rwy or not rolling when been cleared for an immediate take off, which puts extra pressure on an already busy situation.

Please remember every time an ATCO decides to try an get a dep between 2 arrivals he is putting his licence on the line, and is totaly reliant on pilots complying with his instructions....and you can guess what sort of response we'd get from the GCAA if we had a loss of Rwy seperation because no urgency was shown in expediting the tfc by means of the use of immediate, no delay etc.

[Mack Tuck]

Clearly an ATCO response and just as clearly another reason why you need to sit in a cockpit or a centre in London or Frankfurt and listen to how it should be done. Dubai is NOT busy; it is a piece of old doddle. And as for wake turbulence; give me a break... look at the wake turbulence criteria and STOP clearing us to go without the required separation. Too bloody right pal... I will sit there on the runway if cleared to line up without calling ready and sit there until I have the required separation as its me not YOU who will carry the can if it goes pear shaped. Wally!

[jackbauer]

Mack Tuck, very well said, these guys need to see how 3 mile sep on final really works in LHR before crying about how their licence is on the line every time they release an aircraft. Comments by "My Hands Are Tied" are the sign of burn out in an ATCO. CDG FRA and LHR make DXB look like a bunch of scardey cats. No doubt there will be the usual cries of how pilots don't do as they are told but the fact remains DXB is NOT busy.

[ruserious]

MHAT, I don't have a problem with the use of the terminology when it is required, its just hugely overused in Dubai, not by all controllers by any means. The newer (if you know what I mean) controllers are much more likely to use it, so it is really a training issue.
Go to the UK and listen to calm, unemotive, precise ATC RT and you would know what a safety advantage it is. Just as you guys want us to do it right, we in turn respond well to a calm, precise environment.
This forum has a lot of utility to educate both sides of the operational fence, hence I raised the phraseology issue, not to score points or get controllers on the defensive.

[watertheflowers]

As a frequent observer of EK flight decks, mostly every other sector, I tend to agree with a lot of what 'my hands are tied' writes.

As the radio operator, I am frequently embarrassed by the crew members who insist on coming to a halt before commencing the take off roll, and similarly reducing to 15 kts or less before vacating at a high speed turn off.

Another thread commented recently on the slack R/T disipline in this area, once again, couldn't agree more. Seems to be a large group who think that its not macho to follow standard R/T procedures. Listen out to CX, LH, BA, SQ, QF, even Air India, and learn something.

Around two years ago, LHR asked all operators to conduct monitored continuous descent approaches into LHR, then published the results. EK was the 3rd worst operator with a 27% success rate.

Some 'humble pie' to be eaten, I think.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

CDG in Paris has 1,400 movements a day with 2 pairs of parallel runways. Dubai has 600 movements a day currently working with 1 runway. ie. Dubai has 600 daily movements per day per runway, while CDG has 350 daily movements per day per runway. I am not a Dubai Approach controller by the way. Hardly a doddle though, so why don't you all try showing some respect for a change.

[EffohX]

I witnessed what was quite probably worst airmanship I’ve seen in some time last night when the pilot of a widebody aircraft landing at Dubai was told to exit at N6 and he wanted to take it through to the end to turn right for a shorter taxi to the stand.


On finals he asked a second time to be allowed to take it through to the end, saying he would expedite clearing the runway. Tower refused and repeated that he should take N6. (All incoming traffic had been holding and at least one non-local aircraft in the sequence behind the aircraft in question was making it very clear that he was getting very close to minimum fuel.)


Tower directed a widebody to line up behind the landing aircraft and be ready immediate. The pilot of the landing aircraft stood on his brakes, bringing the aircraft to a near stop quite some distance from N6, and then proceeded at what I can only describe as a leisurely pace towards the N6 exit. What astounded me was that he then proceeded to lecture the Tower controller – on ****ing Tower frequency - that he would have taken less time on the runway if he’d been allowed to take it through to the end. This prevented the controller from giving the departing aircraft his takeoff clearance, (not that he could have for the first half of the conversation, for the landing aircraft was still on the runway).


It was quite obvious that the landing pilot was attempting to make a point in being slow in clearing the runway, and also clear that and his extended transmission as he taxied clear delayed the departing aircraft from taking off, which meant that the next aircraft in the landing sequence was forced to go around.


Piss poor effort in my humble opinion, and I hope the person involved is very embarrassed at his behaviour in retrospect. He should also consider himself very lucky if the ATCO concerned hasn’t made a complaint to his company, because if he has, I suspect it will be a very unpleasant tea a bikkies he has with his fleet captain.


***


Quick change of subject: to the DXB Tower controllers. Gents, at most other airports, the ATCOs are quite comfortable in allowing an aircraft to continue the approach down to 200 feet and even lower before making them go around because the runway if still occupied. (In Heathrow, for instance, which Dubai is fast approaching in levels of traffic at certain times of day, it’s not unheard of to be given clearance to land in the flare – around 50 feet.)


I can only assume you must have a set of rules in place demanding that you instruct a landing aircraft to go around if the runway is still occupied when the landing aircraft passes 1000 feet and that sometimes, some of you allow that rule to ‘creep’ just a little. I’ve certainly be forced to go around on more than one occasion at Dubai in circumstances I would describe as totally unnecessary (twice now at around 900 feet with the aircraft ahead well clear of the runway as we passed over it in the missed approach).


Certainly most EK aircraft, and I suspect most other carriers operating into Dubai, are frequently arriving these days with not a lot of fuel in reserve, and an unnecessary go around can leave crews very close to the line in fuel reserves.


***


In closing, can I open the Dubai vectoring can of worms again? Please put arriving aircraft into a hold close in rather than the low level, too slow, cross country navexes we suffer now. (A holding pattern over Sharjah VOR has already been suggested in an earlier thread.) I have learnt to my cost that I have to allow as much as 800 kgs more for final vectoring at Dubai than at any other airport I operate into. (Hint, anything under 230 knots for a 777-300 at or near max landing weight involves extending flap, when the fuel flows spike up considerably. Anything under 170 knots demands final flap, which involves lowering the gear, at that sends the fuel flows into orbit, particularly if we have to fly level, as we all too often have to from 20 odd miles out.) A hold over Sharjah with a minimum hold height of around 7000 to 6000’ with a descending S turn onto a 10 mile final (or less) for either runway would be infinitely better than what we do now.

[RustyNail]

For some reason holding in the ME is a sign of weakness by local controllers, not of air traffic management. If I see holding used I would die of shock.
Remember, if these are local ME controllers then they havn't got the same exposure to heavy traffic that expats get in real airports and traffic management is 20 years ahead of their time, they only know what they are taught here, the same :mad: gets passed down from generation to generation.

Peace out !! :sad:

[ruserious]

I am not disputing or debating the fact that pilots can and do increase controller workload and anxiety levels, that is addressed elsewhere in this forum.
One of the deep joys we have as pilots is that we get to see a lot of different airports and experience widely varying standards of ATC. The level of extra and unnecessary chatter in Dubai from controllers is tangible.
My point stays the same, inappropriate extra emotive verbiage serves no purpose, except to raise every-ones anxiety levels, clutter up the airwaves and as a result reduce levels of situation awareness. It probably has something to do with the number of go-arounds as well.

[typhoonpilot]

(Hint, anything under 230 knots for a 777-300 at or near max landing weight involves extending flap, when the fuel flows spike up considerably. Anything under 170 knots demands final flap, which involves lowering the gear, at that sends the fuel flows into orbit, particularly if we have to fly level, as we all too often have to from 20 odd miles out.) A hold over Sharjah with a minimum hold height of around 7000 to 6000’ with a descending S turn onto a 10 mile final (or less) for either runway would be infinitely better than what we do now.


Yeah, I'm glad you said that. Drives me nuts that the ATCOs ( who generally do a good job ) can't seem to get this little fact straight, no matter how many times we ask for some extra speed on the 220-180-160 knots assigned.


TP

[BurglarsDog]

Interesting thread.

Word for the day:

"Symbiosis" - the relation between two different species of organisms that are interdependent; each gains benefits from the other.:eek:

Methinks that more liaison between "species" is required!

Do ATC have any one who liaises with the customer - or vice versa?

For some drivers; consider visiting the Emirates Aviation College next time you are over the sims; after all its where home grown Dubai Tower controllers are hatched!!

DogGone.:ok:

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

For the hundredth time on here I will say, this is exactly why we need to bring back famil flights. A couple of rides in the jump seat each year will give both sides of the fence a chance to understand each others job, and most importantly ask the questions that need to be asked face to face. Again any pilot who wants to come visit an ATC facility will always be more than welcome.

[ruserious]

For the hundredth time on here I will say, this is exactly why we need to bring back famil flights
Yep, no argument on that one, just wish our various managements would listen

[EffohX]

At the risk of (continuing the) thread creep, can I make a suggestion to Dubai ATC?


Let’s have a (?)30 day trial of ‘close in’ holding, using the PINGO hold for incoming traffic when 12 is in use and OSTIN when 30 is the active. I know this might involve a bit of re-arranging tracks for departing traffic, but surely that wouldn’t be insurmountable.


Stack the incoming aircraft in the respective holds, make the minimum holding height 5000’ so the tracking ex the hold can be a continuous descent. This will allow all incoming aircraft to remain in a clean configuration until they leave the hold, (saving an enormous amount of fuel over the current practices) and not have to dirty up while flying level as we have to do so often now.


I think in the long term a holding pattern over Sharjah is probably the better idea, in that the one hold would serve both runways and would make for minimum disruption and delay if the runway changed, (as if frequently does during the peak traffic period around midnight). But that would involve a lot of paperwork, so let’s take it one step at a time and try the PINGO/OSTIN idea for a month or so.


Anyone else out there think this would be a good idea, or at least an improvement on the current situation? I’ve given up writing reports to management, so this forum is probably the one place where something might be achieved. I believe that if enough people responded here with suggestions on improvements to the current system, (which is NOT working well), someone from Dubai ATC who reads this site might pass the word on to someone in authority who is willing to admit there is room for improvement.


***


Liaison Flights
Someone mentioned the need for more ATCO/aircrew liaison. I understand that ATCO liaison flights have been approved and will soon be introduced… but I’d be willing to bet today’s bonus (whatever it is) that there’ll be a sting in the tail of that, like they’ll have to do them on their days off and pay for their own accommodation if the trip involves an overnight or some such. You can guarantee that would be the case if the roles were reversed and it was the pilots visiting ATC.

[throw a dyce]

Ruserious,
At Hong Kong at CLK in single runway days,we used a cut off of 3 miles for the inbound and positively rolling for the outbound.This worked well with the large number of heavies,to get the ICAO runway length.(3900m)The inbound got landing clearance at about 1mile ish.
At HK we had to increase the gap slightly,because of the Cargo a/c sometimes using the whole runway.Also a/c stopping on high speed exits was a real problem.
In the UK,you can get later landing clearances,as the outbound just has to be airborne and not passed the upwind end of the runway.Also some places can land after the departing with certain criteria.Also we can't use immediate departures with heavies.They obviously can't move fast and there are concerns about a/c at the hold behind.
As far as vortex goes I will note the minute and second that an a/c rolls to get the 120sec,or 180 secs behind.Also waiting until the previous departed has passed 4 miles outbound will give 120secs vortex.
I would never tell an aircraft to vacate at a specific exit.It's just asking for burst tyres,or hot brakes.We often used vacate at the end,and it was just as quick as they didn't come to a screaming halt.A lot less grief for the engines and brakes but the pilot has to play the game and not think he has squatters rights.
Anyway I don't work at Dubai(Deemed not worthy by Serco),but that's what we did,with the ICAO rules we had.:cool:

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Effohx, as ATC'ers we would expect to have to do it on our days off, that's a given. We would also expect that we would have to sort out our own accomodation if it was an overnight stay. Most likely though it wouldn't be overnight, and it would be a there and back in the same day affair, eg. to Tehran and back, or to Beirut and back.

I know just like us, you guys have a busy schedule and days off are precious, but if you ever find yourself cruising past the Carrefour on Airport Rd in Abu Dhabi why not pop in and sit with the Area guys for a while and you might understand our side of things a little better.

Good luck with the attempt to get close in holding in Dubai TMA. We have pilots ask us during the fogged out mornings and we ask DB TMA and unless they are willing to break their own rules and put their licence on the line they have no choice but to say no to close in holding. It's been suggested in the past, but it has always been iron clad that all aircraft are to hold with us on Area at DESDI or BUBIN at or above 10,000ft. We would love nothing more than to offload a few to our friends in Dubai believe me!

[Fubaar]

ANSA, I heard that overnights (nights away) were to be allowed for the ATCOs on their famil. flights, with some restrictions (which I’ve forgotten) on the max number of nights away allowed (probably one). But this was verbal – I haven’t seen anything in writing.

A group of senior pilots doing a CRM course late last year brought up the idea of re-introducing famil. flights with the Chief of Training and he agreed. The idea of getting you away with us on an overnight is that probably far more will be achieved over a (non alcoholic, of course) beer than will be on the flight deck during a quick out and back-er.

On the subject of close in holding, let me be the first to cast my vote in favour of the trial. Surely it would make things easier for the ATCOs too? It would certainly save the companies a fortune in fuel if we were allowed to remain clean until starting the final approach, (which never happens now), and it would completely do away with the present situation where you’re often left with no option but to drag it in with gear down and maintaining 3000’ from as far as 20 miles out. (Mod: can we make the thread into a poll?)

With all their carry-on about saving fuel, I can’t believe Emirates haven’t insisted on something like this idea years ago. Could it be that the people who keep urging us to save fuel at all costs very seldom find themselves arriving in Dubai in the midnight or 6am rush hour?

[Mack Tuck]

Come on fellas (and I can say this in EK as we are all sitting on a pair of pills (hopefully)) if ATC give a speed constraint that is unacceptable for whatever reason tell them what speed you CAN maintain. Accept the extra track miles and still save gas. The ATCOs I know are good buggers but dont have an intimate knowledge of limits on our airplanes. p.s. assigned speeds are +- 10 kts so forget about pulling selected speed if managed gives you that range.

[my hands are tied]

RE the holding area in the CTA, beleive me you are preaching to the converted, but despite numerous requests from OMDB to have either Holds at Pingo/Ostin or even the lower 2 levels of the Des/Bub released to OMDB the GCAA will not approve it. The only exception is in highly unusual situations and as a temp measure OMDB can use Pingo/Ostin as a hold and even then only 1 a/c, but never as a wx hold.

With ref to speed control, you might want to ask to see the requirements sent by EK ops to ATC with recommended speeds on app, you might see why you aren't kept at 230 kts......it seems the A330/340s need to get to 160kt asap!

Mack, sorry, I wasn't suggesting pilots should dep with less than required Wake sep, it just seems as if some take more than the required wake.

[typhoonpilot]

With ref to speed control, you might want to ask to see the requirements sent by EK ops to ATC with recommended speeds on app, you might see why you aren't kept at 230 kts......it seems the A330/340s need to get to 160kt asap!

The 777-300 really needs 230, 190, 170 as opposed to 220, 180, 160. I think a lot of guys just accept the assigned speed and fudge a little, which doesn't help your separation planning.


TP

[EGGW]

Boeing and their speed schedules, should try Airbus, wayyy less draggy, bloody glider in fact :p.

The main prob with the 330 is that with a heavy aircraft, any tailwind, if you get high, the thing with the Trents won't slow down or go down easily. 340's are much better, more drag.

Regarding Wake Vortex sep, some of you guys should spend a day at Heathrow. Thats how to do it! They get very pissed off if you delay, rightly so.

EGGW

[John Doe II]

CDG in Paris has 1,400 movements a day with 2 pairs of parallel runways. Dubai has 600 movements a day currently working with 1 runway. ie. Dubai has 600 daily movements per day per runway, while CDG has 350 daily movements per day per runway. I am not a Dubai Approach controller by the way. Hardly a doddle though, so why don't you all try showing some respect for a change.

ANSA

The 2001 data for CDG:

Peak day 1689 ops / peak hour 125 ops 3 rwys

North set of parallels = 1 x 4200 m + 1 x 2700 m
South set of parallels = 1 x 4200 m + 1 x 2700 m
They are both dependant (384m separated)

Guess the short rwys will be used for smaller acft

If you compare airports, I think you should compare similar layouts etc. Lets say DXB currently single rwy compare with London Gatwick!

My guess would be more calm ATCOs in LGW TWR than the "new" ATCOs in DXB ;)

[throw a dyce]

I think Gatwick is doing about 150+ more movements a day than Dubai.:ok:
They can also use 3mile radar separation.Is that allowed at Dubai or is it 5 miles?
Aren't the controllers in DXB calm:eek:

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

John Doe II I don't know where you got your stats from for CDG but according to a report from Air Transport World July 2005, the annual movements for CDG were 516,457, which is a daily movement figure of 1,414.
I don't know about you but I would have thought that workload would be reduced if you can land your light aircraft on the short runway and the big guys on the long runway, whereas at Dubai the slow guys have to land on the same runway as the quick guys, which surely means the workload is higher.

Thanks for putting me onto Gatwick though as an example because latest available figures show that Gatwick handles 241,489 movements (an annual increase of just 2.8%) or 661 movements a day. Dubai last month had about 19,000 movements for the month, and March is traditionally one of the quietest months for the year (an annualised increase of 14%), or 630 movements a day, all with taxiways closed due to works in progress etc. This also with a high proportion of "interesting" Russian and Eastern operators.
Again I say Dubai is not a doddle, and it is time to show a little respect to the guys and girls who work there.

P.S I just found the latest figures for LGW, and they currently have 245,104 movements a year, that is 671 movements daily. Throw a dyce where exactly did you pluck you +150 figure from ??? If you guys consider Dubai to be a doddle then so is LGW.

[throw a dyce]

ANSA,
I know a Watch manager there.They have days of 700+ and mid 50's an hour.
I have done that single runway job at those traffic levels,and it ain't easy.But you have to get your ass in gear sometimes,otherwise they just sit there wasting fuel.As Seaman Staynes says everyone has to play the game.The operators at Gatwick(most of them) use high speed exits,at high speed.:hmm:

PS.The CAA's figures for EGKK are 261,292 for 2005.That's a wee bit more than you stated.Using your method that's about 715 a day.So on busy days it's got to be 750+.I'll put my handbag down now.

[ruserious]

Well we have got nicely off the topic here and into comparing who's airport is busiest to justify the use of inappropriate terminology.
Well I guess if you can't beat them.....
ANA, LGW is not a full 24 operation like DXB, due to noise quota's it virtually closes down at night (between 2330-0600) to a trickle of traffic. So any statistics are useless, unless you do a peak hour comparison.
Which brings me back nicely to my original point. Go to LGW and listen to the calm precise ATC, in a high density single runway operation, without the use of expedite, late landing clearance and immediate every 15 seconds.
And when things do go wrong at LGW and there is a go around, it stays calm and precise. In the few go arounds I have had in Dubai, controllers have been insistent on getting a reason for the go-around from us, while we are still in the middle of carrying out a dynamic and busy procedure. The safety issues associated with this are obvious.

[John Doe II]

John Doe II I don't know where you got your stats from for CDG
ANSA
Guess I don't have to tell since its a "rumours network" :p But where can you get precise and reliable statistics :confused:

DXB is H24 while many other airports in Europe with single or multi rwy configurations aren't.

Back to the this thread, point is:

Go to LGW and listen to the calm precise ATC, in a high density single runway operation, without the use of expedite, late landing clearance and immediate every 15 seconds.

Well said "ruserious"

[Nimmer]

Time to throw my two penny worth in. Ex UK, EGKK tower and radar, now Dubai tower and radar. Firstly some of the statements from the pilots about how they will spend as much time on the runway as they want, or do there own vortex etc is prety unproffesional and not helping making a very awkward situation at Dubai worse.

The complaints and requests we get on the R/T here, never happened in the UK, when asked to fly 160kts to 4 DME at EGKK, pilots do it if they can't comply they are broken off and repositioned, fact. When given take off clearance they roll, when told to vacate the runway they expedite, we don't tell inbound crews to expect late landing clearance, it always is late.

The situation at Dubai is awkward, the airport has got too busy too quickly, the procedures are abysmal, and the staffing levels low. Losing 10 controllers this year and we are already short staffed, ATCO's are tired. Think we can all work out how long its going to take to train up the necessary replacements.

Going back to procedures, how about this for a rule. Between landing and departing aircraft we have to apply runway seperation, ie the landing aircraft MUST be over the threshold of the landing runway when the departing aircraft is over the threshold at the upwind end, a full runway length between them, thats 4km. Total crap when trying to run single runway ops, and an indication of why things run smoother at other airports.

By the way if ATCO's don't adhere to these procedures they are suspended, and that can mean re-training, another full practical check, and written and oral test. Too many incidents and you are sacked!!!

Inbound procedures, the UAE have to provide us with 15 or 20 mile seperation in trail between aircraft. Riduculous distance, and I can say that You guys at the UAE centre are doing well to achieve. I agree holding is best, but holds only work if the approach controller can have control over the holds, so when gap sizes change, depending on wether the tower controller needs gaps, the approach controller can bring more off the hold or leave them in it. Simple really.

Good procedures evolve, they don't happen overnight, unfortunaly that his not happening in the UAE, nobody is willing to accept some responsibility and make the changes.

Enough said really.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Ok this is the last post on movement figures as it is hijacking the thread, but I took offense to the comment about it being a doddle in Dubai. Throw a dyce I used the figures from the Gatwick airport website, and if you are talking about peak days and peak periods, then as Dubai has average daily movements of 630 a day, on some days they have over 700. Just as LGW doesn't have high movements at night, and has the traffic compressed into a short period, Dubai has a couple of extremely busy arrival periods (11.00pm-1am from the West and 4am-6am from the East) and a couple of extremely busy departure periods (2.30-4.30am to the East and 1.30am-3am to the Nth and West). And as posted previously LGW movements are growing by between 2.5% and 4% a year, while Dubai traffic has increased by a minimum of 10% every year for the last 3 years, with the airport being one constant building site, with taxiways shut and runways shut or shortened.

Dubai ATC just like the rest of us, is trying there best to hang in there, and is doing so by there fingernails and so being told that we aren't working any traffic and so should get down and pay homage to the mighty UK controllers cos they have so much more traffic than we do, is a crock to be frank. Every place has it's own pressures and is all relative. How many other ATCO's did the guy have in the tower to help him when he wasn't calm enough for you? How long had he gone without a break? How many times had he tried to say the simple transmission to the semi english speaking pilot before you came on frequency? But no you guys have decided that the guys in the UK and Europe have the hardest job in the world and as such are the best in the world, and we are not worthy in the Middle East.

[John Doe II]

AirNoServicesAustralia..... CALM DOWN (after all you're an ACC guy) :\

[IShotTheSherif]

I'm with ANSA on this - unless these very qualified-to-judge drivers are holders of a valid ATC licence (and TCAS doesn't apply :yuk:) at the airport in question, and are intimately familiar with the local :mad: procedures - then...

please keep your intimations and guesses about our job being a doddle to yourselves. Fly the heading and speed (after all there are 2 of you to manage that task) and have a nice day. Just like Gatwick. Just like anywhere else...

PS: As we ATC are short staffed, those drivers with ATC ratings and validations please feel free to help us out...:suspect:

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

JD II I'm very calm thanks. Just find it incredible that jet drivers think that now that they have a TCAS display they are experts in all things ATC. Yes I am ACC and Dubai App/Twr and us work together and rely on each other everyday to keep things safe in the UAE, so when I hear pilots belittling the job my colleagues do (when I see the generally very high standard job they do, in very trying conditions right now), I get my back up and defend them.

So JD II, I am very calmly pissed off at the lack of respect shown on here by some towards fellow Aviation professionals.

[ruserious]

ANA et al, if you can't take a bit of constructive criticism from other aviation professionals, who do have some experience globally, you are in a pretty sad position, cause that's what reading your posts looks like to me.
Like it or not (and you obviously don't) TCAS is a wonderful situation awareness tool for pilots, that combined with all the other cues we get from our environment, such as radio calls and looking out the windows, tells us remarkably accurately how busy you are.
Our experience elsewhere in the world gives us a benchmark to measure the overall performance of an ATSU and quality of its RT. Hence my initial statement about use of phraseology.
So this will be my last post on the issue, I had hoped that something could be done to reduce the level of unnecessarily emotive and verbose urgency phrases from some controllers in DXB tower, just as a controller recently did regarding poor pilot RT.
Guess I failed.

[Nimmer]

ANSA,agree with your comments, this post is for you and all the rest of the hardworking guys and gals at the centre and Dubai.

Emirates pilots read on, you have a shocking reputation at both EGLL and EGKK. Your R/T is sloppy, words have to be repeated, taxi instructions are read back wrongly and your performance on the runways is, shall I say compensated for. I know for a fact that at EGKK you are NEVER slotted in for departure in a 6 mile gap.The tower controller rings radar and asks for a 7 miler, just using the word EMIRATES.

Stop criticising ATC here, we are doing the best we can, with crap procedures, shortage of staff, and low pay.

To make matters worse, Emirates are actually the BEST operators at the airport in Dubai, perhaps now a few of you "gods" can see what we are dealing with on an everyday basis.

Nobody wants a thread to get into a slanging match, but I reckon ATC in the middle east deserve some respect. I work harder here than I ever did in the UK, you ask a UK ATCO to sit in a busy position for 2 and a half hours without a break, then just get half an hour off, the air would be blue. Things are better in the UK, but not due to the skills of the controller, but because they have excellent procedures, good staffing levels,good equipment and good management support who back them if and when the need arises.

GCAA could learn a thing or two. Only mention what its like in the UK, as thats what I know, sure it is the same in other 1st worls countries.

[ruserious]

Nobody wants a thread to get into a slanging match
Really, read your previous paragraphs

[Antman]

Can I just put a bit of perspective on this for my flying colleagues who have never worked a scope. They may think that it’s great in the UK the states etc etc, but have they not noticed how often they are handed off to a new freq when in these areas of the world. The main fact of the matter is number of aircraft handled per controller. I’ll put money on it that in Europe the aircraft per controller on a single frequency is probably less than half what it is here. Now ATC need to keep the picture (Hopefully) and the less aircraft you have on a freq at any one time the easier to keep the picture and sound oh so calm. The most amazing piece of airspace for me is (believe this or not) the Bombay TMA. There you have one controller controlling a piece of airspace 40NM radius with no proper holding fixes and a shed load of aircraft all wanting to do there own thing. That there aren’t more incidents there is truly amazing. Just as a exercise next time it is busy try and work out what call sign belongs to which TCAS target and then work out where you fit into the sequence. Good fun and great for your big picture situational awareness of everybody.

[BullerBoy]

AirNoServices makes a great point. Trafic numbers are irelevant in the ME, and you cant compare ATC units based on numbers.

It is the poor RT (yes, on both sides), pilots not listening, dodgy english, poor comms, lack of procedures, constantly having to repeat simple instructions (not requests) and having to use double radar separation (in parts of the FIR) because the equipment is inadequate.

The individual workload of the controller is the factor, not just numbers.

We averaged over 700 movements arrving, departing and transiting the FIR over Nov/Dec, this is a quiet time of the year. Summer will be close to 1000 a day and growing as the ME airlines expand.

Some units also do not have the luxury of a planner position, so as well as high levels of RTF we are constantly on the phone coordinating with adjacent units, some of which we do not have direct lines to and have to be transfered through third parties.

Some controllers go to alot of effort to at least make some sort of spacing for A/C eastbound to the UAE, to give our collegues over there at least a fighting chance, others couldnt give a damn.

Teh bottom line is you cant comment on aTC units based purely on numbers, you have to take into consideration all of the management and equipment factors, go there, walk a mile and do the hard yards.:ok:

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Ruserious, constructive criticism is fine, and I actually agree that the term expedite is overused here, and waters down its importance for the times you really need it. What I took offence at was the couple of posts by the arrogant tossers belittling the traffic levels in Dubai. The number of aircraft per controller in this part of the world whether talking tower, approach or area, is a lot higher than in Europe and the US, and all this is being done with less advanced equipment at our disposal. I mean how many units in Europe operate these days without any automated conflict alerts, either short term or medium term. We have neither and won't have for probably at least 3 years. We usually have 1 planner available to be used between 4 positions, and if used means we work 2 1/2 hours on 1/2 hour off. Ask our European colleagues how their staffing levels compare. Our traffic levels are increasing at 10-15 % per year, and at the moment is nudging 1200 movements a day, and like our tower, approach and neighbouring FIR colleagues, we are seriously struggling to keep our head above water.

So again Ruserious the constructive criticism from you is duly noted, but the cheap misguided snipes from your colleagues is not. I am guessing these guys are the same ones that block the busy frequency wondering why they are not able to have the straight in runway for SHJ, or why there are delays into Dubai (Hello, it's 11.30pm on a Friday night, there are always delays!). We will try and stay sounding calm, if you guys agree to give us your level passing on first contact, meet ATC requirements, fly the speeds given and generally act in a professional manner. Thank you.

And Buller Boy, the efforts of the guys in Bahrain who try and help us out by getting DB landers abeam or under the over flyers is appreciated. We realise you guys are under the pump and as such can't always put things on a silver platter for us, but what you can do for us is appreciated. I hope most of the UAE guys try and recipricate by putting Bahrain landers under or abeam the overflyers when they can. I know unless the traffic is going off, I try as best I can to help you guys out. Of course a change in prcedures with parallel tracks through BALUS and TUGOS, to split landers from overflyers would be even better but thats another topic. Cheers.

[EffohX]

The fact emains, ANSA, that you guys simply have somehow to get the message across to your bosses in Abu Dhabi that the rules they make to operate under are grossly inefficient in the traffic densities that are fast becoming the norm every night in Dubai.

A go around costs big bucks, and not just that, with the smell of an oily rag many of us are arriving in Dubai with these days thanks to company cost cutting policies, it can really lead to an 'interesting' situation fuel wise by the time you get back on finals for a second try. The rules you are forced to operate under are leading to unnecessary go arounds. That's a fact. The performance of modern day jets in a go around is such that there is no problem at all allowing them to continue to 200 feet (or even lower) before requiring them to go around.

Sorry if some see this as thread creep, but I have no interest in slanging off at the controllers. I suspect each and every one of them is as frustrated as we pilots are at their having to abide by rules that are simply too conservative.

Bring on the famil flights and many of these problems would disappear within a week or two.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Effohx, this is even more thread creep but I want to raise a point you touched on, and that is how much fuel you guys carry. We are more and more often having Emirates aircraft telling us that they can't hold for more than 5 minutes otherwise they will have to divert to their alternate. Almost every night now into Dubai we have some sort of holding. Some nights you may be lucky and sneak through with only a couple of vectors and speed control but surely that is too big a risk to take. Has there been any advice from the company as to how much holding fuel to carry when coming into Dubai in the evening?

[ruserious]

you guys simply have somehow to get the message across to your bosses
I think that's about as likely as our managers listening to us. They will only pay attention when something goes very wrong and then they will try and blame someone from the operational sphere, whether it be pilots, engineers or ATC. But they will never criticise or accept criticism for the cost cutting, under resourcing and general P-poor organisational structures they put in place.

[throw a dyce]

In the UK,a hold of up to 20 mins is regarded as no delay.After that you have to issue EAT's.There is also no such thing as tight on fuel.It's are you declaring an emergency,or get treated the same as everyone else.:rolleyes:
ANSA
The biggest problem with all single runway ops is maximum runway
utilisation.The ''Arrogant Tossers'' as you quote are pointing out that it's not efficient as it could be.This causes delays in the air and go-arounds for whatever reason create a lot of hassle.
There are many places in europe that operate with minimum staff,no conflict alert and minimum time off.Don't feel so hard done by,because everyone is short of staff with increasing traffic levels.Even in the UK:*

[OLDI]

Hello all,

I am an ATC at Dubai.

In response to the OP's comments regarding the excessive use of terminology demanding expeditious actions, he/she is absolutely correct. I was on the airfield doing an inspection not too long ago and could not believe the amount of this nature of RT being used in situation that not even nearly deemed it necessary.

Reading through this thread, there are many truths, a few stretches of the truth/imagination and a whole bunch of people who need to take a little look around and see the building site (with landing options) for what it is.

In many ways the ATC’s in Dubai are limited to what the regulator has dictated. These dictates are often based on;

1. The construction at the Airport and the associated risk for accident/incident.

2. The difficulty that some Eastern-Block / Russian / [Fill in the Blanks] Aircrews have with the English Language and the (often) performance levels of their aircraft.

3. The increase in the rate of traffic at Dubai and the associated problems caused thereby.

4. The reducing levels of (local) experience based on resignations.

5. [Add more reasons here]

Give Dubai a break, we are working under less than desirable circumstances, and when individuals have had enough and decide to leave, it just gets worse for those of us that remain behind and the knock on effect is invariably passed on to you ...

No big bonuses/pensions here, not many reasons to hang around eh!

Come What May

[ruserious]

Thanks OLDI, the inappropriate use of terminology was my only agenda on starting this thread. But it kinda grew wings.
This forum has real potential for improving (or if used wrongly destroying) the relationship between ATC and pilots in Dubai.
I had standard phraseology beaten into me by a anally retentive Englishman, way back at the start of my career and to be honest he did me a favour.
However, since a previous thread started by an ATCO regarding incomplete pilot R/T calls was made, I make even more effort to try and nail my calls.
It doesn't matter what side of the fence we are on, sometimes it is hard to look past our own perspective. The limits, policies, procedures and frustrations that our organisations thrust on us are never apparent to the person at the other side of a microphone. So lets try and keep it constructive, humorous and don't bite the bait too often.

[PIPE RIDER]

GUYS GIVE IT A BREAK..... Dubai is doing just fine, traffic is getting heavier, a lot of the pilots and I mean a LOT of the pilots who fly in the area have't flown in demanding enviroments, (US, Canada, EU) so when they are asked to maintain a certain speed to final fix, either they freeze or don't comply. Finally ATC planning goes to the toilet.
Try not to comply with ATC requirements in other sides of the world an somebody will be on the gate waiting for you, but the HUGE fear on speed, and not to be stabilized makes a lot of guys be very low and slow on approach, so instead of talking crap comply with ATC, learn what your airplane can and can't do, and help the rest of US , were all tired and want to get home fast.

[Ali Bin Somewhere]

rus when i started my thread on pilot r/t all i hoped was that i made 1 pilot(hopefully more) take a look at themselves and go back to the basics they were taught and do it right. i'm not saying that you did it wrong in the first place but you said you make more effort to nail your call so thanks. that has a knock on effect so that the guy next to you sees you being professional and (hopefully) will follow your lead, you switch crews and they see it too so on and so forth.

as far as listening to what the pilots say about atc i do the same as you. i may not be doing it wrong but i'll make really sure that i improve in areas that i can. i dont use expidite etc because thats used for when things are going to go to :mad: . same goes for giving you 3000ft decent rate then get you to slow to 250IAS as well. its one or the other as i know you cant do both without turning the plane insideout. most guys are the same as we had good training back home but, just as with pilots, some atc have forgotton or were never taught these basics. i like you will keep plugging away trying to nail it and hope that others follow suit.

i agree with most guys here in that the procedures and circumstances that we operate under both in the center as well as in dubai app/twr are poor at best. the procedures have been designed but folks who last worked in the center when the airspace was overloaded with 700 movements per day. we are nearly double that (1387 busiest day so far i believe) and increasing all the time. on top of that throw in works at dubai and some "unprofessional" companies and you start to see some of the problems we atc/pilots face.

just a couple of points

1) the guys/girls who read this forum are professionals who do a good job. do you really think that joe bloggs who couldn't seperate his arse cheeks with both hands or billy erktnwrejn who doesn't understand that 250IAS means just that not 300IAS is going to get on here to discuss the finer points of atc/flying??

2) i haven't seen any real change either on the airwaves or in the center as a result of the goings on in this forum. sorry. i would love to be proved wrong on that one. hopefully though it is being used as a good place to find out how we ALL can do a better job and understand the pressures that each other is under.

3) each country/airport/center is different. dubai does not have slot times or flow control to make sure that a/c arrive at DESDI/BUBIN at time----. major airports in australia/usa/europe etc work on slot arrival/depature times and enroute flow control. usa has max of 12a/c per sector we have up to 18. eurocontrol has max of 1 conflict point per sector we have 5+ and all the major centers have STCA and MTCA as well as all the other nice little features like electronic strips, handoff function etc etc which we don't. do we handle as many a/c as some other 1st world centers? in raw numbers no. are we as busy as them due to all the above factors and all the others i havn't mentioned? YES.

4) alot of the guys who were in us/aus/euro/uk/sa have come here and are lots busier then back home due to point 3. some handle it better then others. some phrases are overused here by some people. but at least we are all talking about it and trying to understand what each other is going through. lets not try and punish each other with a "this will teach him attitude". if asked to expidite then try and do it and advise if you cant. then take 10 min and go to the tower/app after landing or give then a call on the phone and have a chat to the guys/girls up there and find out the whole story. most are willing to tell you and have a coffee/chat. same for atc. dont give penalty vector/orbit etc unless its for seperation. tell the pilot he missed the requirement and when you have a chance give him the number of work and have a chat to him. a calm talk to let each other understand why they needed to do as instructed will have a much longer lasting, benificial effect then bitching and bleating to each other on the air.:ok: