Yeager not the first. [Archive]

henry crun

23rd Apr 2006, 09:03

One part of that article puzzles me.

"George explained to Millie what she should look for. “A sharp boom, like a clap of thunder. If you hear that, be sure to write down the time, what it sounded like, the reaction from others, stuff like that.” "

How did he know it would produce a noise like a clap of thunder if it had never happened before ?

westhawk

23rd Apr 2006, 10:33

How did he know it would produce a noise like a clap of thunder if it had never happened before ?

Perhaps he had heard the "snap" of a high velocity bullet flying overhead and correctly surmised that an airplane might make a similar, if higher amplitude "snap". More probably, personal recollections of witnesses are subject to "revision" by subsequent events.

In any case, I don't doubt that "Wheaties" Welch could have gone supersonic as described. However, it will remain "unofficial" since no telemetry or flight recording was dedicated to this flight as it was with Yeager's X-1 work. Nevertheless, Welch is a legend!

Best regards,

Westhawk

chevvron

23rd Apr 2006, 14:14

Absolutely fascinating. Where does the Dh108 fit in this timescale?
Henry Crun: the 'boom' had happened before many times and must have been heard on many occasions over southern England; have you forgotten the V2 rocket?

Dan Winterland

23rd Apr 2006, 15:47

I once read a collection of accounts of Me262 pilots during the war. They described when diving through a formation of allied bombers, sometimes the aircraft would become hard to control, buffet a lot then the flight would smooth out and they were flying very very fast. But too fast to get an accurate aim on the bombers. This sounds like the Luftwaffe beat the Americans by several years.

jabberwok

23rd Apr 2006, 16:46

This sounds like the Luftwaffe beat the Americans by several years.
Quite likely. In fact there are graded definitions creeping in (as always) and so Yeager achieved the first recorded level, controlled supersonic flight and the XP86 is recognised as the first recorded controlled flight in a descent.
It makes you wonder how many unrecorded flights there were, how many uncontrolled flights (the Swallow may have fallen in this bracket) and how many earlier penetrations of the sound barrier actually happened. There is evidence to suggest a few Spitfires may have gone supersonic but not in any controlled manner and it is likely other fast pistons, and some early jets, may have punched into the unknown.
It would be rather intriguing to know who may have really been the first to cross the boundary - controlled or not.

henry crun

23rd Apr 2006, 21:39

chevvron, Thanks for putting it so diplomatically, I had forgotten, and now hang my head in embarrassment. :{

rotornut

23rd Apr 2006, 22:54

A former Messerschmit Me 163 pilot personally told me they would break the sound barrier in power dives all the time. Unfortunately this was never officially substantiated but I have no reason to doubt it.

18-Wheeler

24th Apr 2006, 00:36

A couple of links on the ME-262.

Normally you'd poo-poo such things, but the interesting thing is that the 262 pilots described what happened to the aeroplane as they apparently went through mach one - before anyone knew.
And it's documented, so I believe it may well bear further investigation.

http://mach1.luftarchiv.de/mach1.htm
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0198c.shtml

John Eacott

24th Apr 2006, 01:37

This was discussed on this forum a few years ago, here. (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=54492&highlight=george+welch) ISTR a lot more, especially accounts where Welch was ordered to fly with his gear down, to prevent further "excursions" over M1.0. And the accounts of him doing so, until out of sight of the base........;)

Onan the Clumsy

24th Apr 2006, 02:01

Partly correct. Yeager wasn't the first to break the sound barrier, that honour really belongs to a little known chap from New Zealand called Richard Pearce.

Aviation's Dark Horse :cool:

chevvron

24th Apr 2006, 06:29

The bit about the Me 262 has reminded me; I vaguely remember a story (Aeroplane Monthly?) about the air speed record attempts in a Meteor just after WW2. I think it said that during development flying of the aircraft selected for the attempt, they encountered mach buffet whilst flying over the Bristol Channel (presumably operating from Brockworth or Moreton Valence). No claim for exceeding M1 was ever made, but you wonder how close they got.

Dan Winterland

24th Apr 2006, 07:19

I think it's unlikely with the Meteor. The wings are too straight and thick, the engines wouldn't be powerful enough and it used engines with centrifugal compressors which don't like fast intake airflow.

The Bell X1 is remarkably similar to the Miles M52 in design. Britain could have beaten the Americans (officially) had it not been for the post war Labour government. Yet another case of 'what could have been'.

con-pilot

24th Apr 2006, 17:37

Richard Pearce was the first pilot to break the sound barrier?:eek:

Not bad for someone who would have been around 70 years old at the time.

Kieron Kirk

24th Apr 2006, 20:53

Richard William Pearse was born in Upper Waitohi,Canterbury,New Zealand in 1877. He died on the 29th July 1953,and his ashes were scattered in the Bromley Crematorium Garden of Rest in Christchurch,NZ.

Wings over Waitohi-The story of Richard Pearse by Geoff Rodliffe,published by Avon Press 1997. ISBN 0-473-05000-5.

B Fraser

25th Apr 2006, 07:34

The Bell X1 is remarkably similar to the Miles M52 in design.

I think "copied" is the correct term.

henry crun

26th Apr 2006, 05:56

chevvron: Having flown most marks of Meteor from the 4 upwards I can assure you that they would not have got within a bulls roar of Mach 1.

I would be surprised if they even got to the mid .8's because by then it would have been buffeting fit to shake itself to pieces.

G-KEST

26th Apr 2006, 06:44

Agaricus bisporus

26th Apr 2006, 14:10

So come on someone, tell us how Richard Pearce achieved this accolade.

What did he do it in?

Details!!!

18-Wheeler

27th Apr 2006, 01:03

Agaricus bisporus

There's a couple of other posters above having a bit of a tongue-in-cheek joke at Pearse's expense.
Pearse flew a sustained & controlled flight for about 900 yards in early 1903. He also had flight of hundreds of yards long in 1902.
Yes, all before the Wright brothers.
Read more here (http://www.billzilla.org/pearce.htm/).

Opssys

27th Apr 2006, 18:05

I have, as is often the case with this forum, found this a very interesting thread.
History is almost always written by the winners and in this case the X1 did break the Sound Barrier in straight and level flight. But I am not surprised that prior to this historic event others did so in a dive (and got away with it :-).

The Wright Brothers may not have been the first, but to mangle Terry Pratchetts words:
An Explorer is someone who is the first to dicover a new land, except for the people who live there, people who visit on business and those who got lost, none of whom tell the media, or write books about it.

The Wright Brother did get the the News out and despite a slow start their PR improved rapidly so they 'won' the place in history prize!

As for the X1 and M.52 This was an era when HMG for a variety of reasons was more than willing to give away what is now described as Intellectual Property especially to our then biggest creditor the USA. So it doesn't come as any surprise if Bell had access to the data Miles had worked so hard to obtain. Whilst giving our IP to the US may have had some return benefit, sending Nene's to Russia, I have never understood (Topic Drift).
DIH

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!

30th Apr 2006, 13:23

I thought a German pilot in an Me262 had traversed the barrier before hostilities ended. I remember following a link on prune about this.

Churchill Polar Bear

30th Apr 2006, 15:17

I remember following a link on prune about thisThere are some links on this very thread :rolleyes:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2538135&postcount=11

henry crun

1st May 2006, 03:04

The link, http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0198c.shtml by 18-Wheeler, would seem to disprove the claim that the 262 was capable of supersonic flight.

Brian Abraham

1st May 2006, 06:52

Having met Mr. Yeager on a couple of occasions and heard hm talk on his flying exploits I am convinced of one thing irrespective of who was first through Mach 1. Even at his advanced age he has the biggest ego of any pilot I have ever encountered. That he had a fair degree of "the Right Stuff" is not in question. I just find his attitude rather unpalatable.

Just been reading "First Man" by James Hansen (biography of Neil Armstrong) and Yeager does not come out of it too well at all. www.nf104.com provides a good insight to the man as well - perhaps he should have been in PR. Wonder how history will remember him. As for his quote that he didnt bother with applying for astronaut "because who wants to brush monkey poo off the seat before sitting down" I'm more inclined to think after reading nf104 that he didnt have the right stuff.

Agaricus bisporus

1st May 2006, 12:51

Me262. Hmm, I thought that the critical discovery that made the Sound Barrier breakable was the all-flying tailplane, or stabilator for aerodynamic reasons that someone else will no doubt explain. I had understood that without this innovation control could not be maintained thru M1. The Me262 was not so equipped, was it?

Miles design pinched by Bell. Any evidence to support this? Seems unlikely, most of the great technical advances of the last century were arrived at virtually simultaneously in different parts of the world by different people, see Radio, Radar, Jet Engine, Aeroplane etc etc, and many, if not most were very very similar in design. (Unless I've misunderstood and UK Govt gave USG the plans when the Miles was canx, but I don't have the relevant dates at hand to judge that possibility, which in any case is hardly copying, certainly not pinching, if the data was given freely)

Bell X1 was rocket powered, Miles was jet, wasn't it, with pilot prone in a cone inside an annular intake? Not too similar at first glance, anyway. Of course they were roughly the same shape, if you wanted to fly faster than sound you'd model your craft on the only things you knew were stabe at supersonic speeds, ie a rifle bullet and the V2.

Love to see some evidence though...

henry crun

1st May 2006, 22:45

Agaricus bisporus: re your opening remarks. Some earlier marks of jet fighter, e.g. Hunter, did not have an all flying tailplane and could exceed Mach1 in a dive.

B Fraser

2nd May 2006, 07:15

The "exchange" of research data with our transatlantic chums is well documented. Amongst various references available on the web is this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_M.52) from Wikipedia

In 1944 design work was considered 90% complete, and Miles was told to go ahead with the construction of three prototype M.52's. Later that year the Air Ministry signed an agreement with the United States to exchange high-speed research and data. The Bell Aircraft company was given all of the drawings and research on the M.52, but the US reneged on the agreement and no data was forthcoming in return. Unbeknownst to Miles, Bell had already started construction of a rocket powered supersonic design of their own, but were battling the problem of control. The Miles all-moving tail proved to be the solution to their problems.

At least we are still the only country to exceed Mach 1 on the ground :ok:

chevvron

2nd May 2006, 14:54

Actually you could accuse the French of 'pinching' the M52 concept with the Orenda ramjet; that had a prone pilot in an annular intake.

TIMTS

4th May 2006, 17:02

I did a recurrency flight a couple of years ago with a member of the FSDO in Nevada. They were responsible for the safety on one of the big airshows over there, and Yeager was scheduled to fly.
They had a briefing for all the pilots scheduled to fly, and in this meeting Yeager got pissed that he wasn't scheduled to fly first. He started to tell everyone off, and asking if they didn't know who he was. He demanded to fly first, with no other planes taxiing or doing any kind of operation that would either detract from his performance or drown out the narrator.
They tried to reason with him, that they had other planes that needed to fly first for logistic reasons and whatever..but he just went into a complete egotrip and started to yell at everyone there that he was the greatest aviator known to man and was expected to fly first.

It all ended with him flying last, and only being approved for straight and level passes down the display line.

Not sure what year this happened.

All in all, I am happy the true story of the "sound barrier" is coming to light. Maybe this guy can calm down a little.

Opssys

4th May 2006, 18:27

Yeager was never a boyhood hero of mine, but because of 'his place in history' I have been following the thread with some interest.

Following the trend that has emerged during the postings, I started to think about why Yeager was selected from the pool of experienced test pilots to fly what was hoped was going to be a historic flight:

q) Should we try it out with a chimp first ?
a) No the automated systems we need won't be available for at least 2 decades!

q) So we need a good pilot to go, where no one has proof they have gone before?
a) Yes a really skilled pilot!

q) We are going to drop him from another aircraft, in a machine is is 80% extremely volatile fuel. That could just blow up?
a) Yes

q) Who has the skill, but we can afford to lose?
a) Yeager

q) Agreed, but what if he succeeds?
a) I guess he willl become a hero!

q) What if he doesn't succeed?
a) I guess the he will become a hero for a while. But we should learn enough that the next guy will make it and he will be a hero for the rest of his life.

q) Hmm Yeager it is. Shame about the chimp we'll just have to settle for the chump. But if he makes it won't he be impossible to live with?
a) Well there are other very experimental designs he could test!

I am sure that is NOT how it was done, but!!

treadigraph

4th May 2006, 20:11

Apparently it could have been Bob Hoover, but for a spat with his boss!

But I like you scenario Opssys!

Churchill Polar Bear

4th May 2006, 20:14

Opssys Well there are other very experimental designs he could testTwo words : NF-104 spin :suspect: :E

Brian Abraham

6th May 2006, 05:05

Interesting discussion re Yeager at http://collectspace.com/ubb/Forum34/HTML/000040.html

All his peers respected his stick and rudder flying abilities but it seems his reputation was built around his willingness to dive in where angels feared to tread and get away with it (most times - see nf104 spin/bail out). Also he was very well connected politically (eg Le May) but didnt have the education to compete with his peers who mostly (Armstrong, Crossfield etc) saw themselves as aircraft designers, engineers, aerodynamicists rather than "test pilots". Much in the same vein as the original Wright brothers who were first and foremost engineers in solving the problems of flight. So perhaps the right stuff might be replaced by "Wright stuff" when talking of the qualities to look for in a test pilot. Yeagers own web site is mostly devoted to testimonials - look how good I am/was.

Agaricus bisporus

6th May 2006, 12:49

Do I detect the aroma of sour grapes here?

Yeager was undoubtably not highly educated but was clearly a very intelligent guy ot he could not have got where he did. My feelings are that he was a simply brilliant stick and rudder man and what's more one with an almost uncanny ability to judge an aircraft's limits by the seat of his pants, and go there, and come back with all the data the test engineers wanted. That is a rare skill. But he was one of the last of his ilk, time saw to that.

He was, however, overtaken by the graduate engineers and aerodynamicists as the problems of pushing the boundaries became ever more technical, even more dangerous, and also harder to judge by "feel". There is no doubt he was also something of a loose cannon at times with an almost equal disregard for military discipline as the fool who got into an F86 and dived it supersonic on it's first flight, which seems to me to be an act of supreme folly and irresponsibility. He was/is also a consumate self-publicist which seems to annoy some people in UK and Europe, but less so in US, I think, where he is still remembered as the all-american hero from the backwoods who did good in the Air Force and sold a lot of car parts on TV.

The fact is he is one of the most highly skilled pilots there has ever been and it seems a pity that on this forum, of all places, some of us see fit to run him down.

I still think that a self-powered (as opposed to gravity powered) record is still the one to admire, so leaving aside Richard Pierce (!) or those Me262s that can never be proven then Yeager is the one who takes the prize.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!

6th May 2006, 21:32