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2nd May 2001, 00:27
Now that the merger of EOG/Cityflyer is rolling are the city flyer pilots more upbeat about staying with the company or are they still resigning in the droves? The Bral/Brymon merger doesn't seem to have stopped pilots from both sides leaving but then they don't have the opportunity to bid for a mainline fleet in five years.

Talking Ballast
2nd May 2001, 01:02
If only you could read our company forum! We've just been given 'the deal' and there are a series of important meetings ahead this week, followed by a vote in due course. Give it a few weeks and no doubt the result will be aired.
But, either because they can't or don't want to, I can't see too many people voting with their feet.

2nd May 2001, 11:58
If you don't mind me asking , what does the deal roughly consist of?

Talking Ballast
3rd May 2001, 01:13
I don't think I'm at liberty to divulge the contents at the moment as the 'deal' may yet be rejected at the vote which will occur sometime soon. Suffice to say, there are some people who will do well out of it and others who won't. It is therefore somewhat contentious. Theoretically nobody should be any worse off than they are at the moment, although practically that is not necessarily true. Sorry I can't be any more enlightening!

FO Nigetrussoxide
3rd May 2001, 01:16
Voting with their feet! Don't make me laugh...Most CFE pilots are thrilled .
(well those who understand (i)how hard it is to get into BA as a DEP; and (ii) what it really means to be part of BA in terms of the overall package).
It could be argued that BALPA have negotiated a decent outcome with BA management.


[This message has been edited by FO Nigetrussoxide (edited 02 May 2001).]

3rd May 2001, 02:56
Basically, the deal is that all CFE pilots under the age of 55 are joining the bottom of the main BA seniority list (joining in CFE seniority order) with an effective BA date of joining of 3rd April 2001. "Vote" all you like, but that's what you're getting!

White Knight
3rd May 2001, 11:38
FO Nigesomething:

Don't make us laugh sunshine !! People WILL leave after this is all over. What is it about arrogant little people like you who think that BA is the be all and end all of UK civil aviation. May be it's something to do with just being a faceless number, if it's going to happen we want total parity - and that includes seniority.....
Many of our pilots stand to be SHAFTED if BA get their way.....

I like to think that the vast majority of BA pilots are intelligent and fair-minded, as well as being nice people. Just a pity about the other few really.

3rd May 2001, 14:27
CityFlyer pilots under 55 will basically be offered BA Mainline contracts under the following conditions:

Seniority for all from 3 April 2001
Captains on Pay Point 1
F/O's on CADET! Pay Point 3 FROZEN! for 3 years!

:)Any comments welcome, especially from Brymon/BRAL and BA (LHR and EOG). :)

3rd May 2001, 15:31
Does that represent a pay cut or pay rise for most? I also note that the Flying Hour Rate is payable from April 2002 and that CFE pilots gain EOG terms and conditions.

I must apologise on behalf of the normal individuals in BA for the arrogant and unnecessary tone of FO Nitruswhatever. He is NOT representative of the majority of guys/gals in BA. If any of you Cityflyer pilots are disadvantaged I think you will find that the majority of us have every sympathy but life has never been fair to all.

For the majority of you I hope long term it will improve your career/lifestyle etc.

[This message has been edited by M.Mouse (edited 03 May 2001).]

3rd May 2001, 15:53
Being a Brymon pilot I'm very envious of you chap/chapesses at Cityflyer I think you've got a good deal from the sounds of it. I just wish BA embrased the Brymon/Bral pilots with the same deal....can't see it though!

3rd May 2001, 16:11
Call me an old cynic, but in almost every walk of life, very rarely does anybody "offer a deal" primarily for the benefit of the victim (oops!), receiver.

Secret Squirrel
3rd May 2001, 16:13
Talking Ballast,

I'm sorry but despite the semmingly raw deal that the FO's are getting you really must look beyond that word 'cadet'. If you can't see that then you need an eye test! I know it's insulting and that all your prides have been hurt but make no mistake, with the exception of a few over forty FO's, everybody will be better off in the long term. Let nigetrussedup and the likes have their little dig, and if they want to look down their noses at us, then so be it. One day you may get the chance to spread them across their faces.

It will be a YES almost certainly.

Very funny, Scotty. Now beam up my clothes!

4th May 2001, 00:31
M.Mouse. A breath of fresh air to hear that. :) I have long thought that the "odd" posting by so called "Nigels" were both sad and detramental to our profession. :mad: We at CFE had a happy and profitable company (yes FD & CC leaving all the time for many reasons, usually ). I believe (in part at least)that money is not the be all & end all for everyone. At the risk of sounding like a book of quotations "you are sometimes better off/ happier in a smaller pool than an Ocean. I have read with shock the number of incidents at BA to do with FD & CC. We at CFE are not imune to this. However, we do not pretend to be "sky gods". Thank you M.M for your posting. :)

[This message has been edited by par72 (edited 03 May 2001).]

[This message has been edited by par72 (edited 03 May 2001).]

White Knight
4th May 2001, 02:25
M.Mouse; you've restored my faith in BA ! I'll be happy to work with folks like you...whenever all of this stuff gets sorted out.

5th May 2001, 12:50
So let me get this straight....to get into what was cityflyer I now have to apply for BA mainline i.e need 1500 hours and have to do all the tests, interviews etc ?

Harry Wragg
5th May 2001, 22:45
Cityflyer exists in name only, and not even that come March 2002. Turnover in the region of 27% per annum has reduced to almost 0%.

I guess that speaks for itself. Luck, or was it simply inevitable???

Don't expect many job opportunities to become available now!!

captain codpiece
6th May 2001, 14:49
Blended Winglets,as your'e with Brymon what does the deal offer you chaps?Just to keep you in the loop,I'm interested as I'm with CFE and we are going through a similar thing at the moment.

6th May 2001, 16:50
Well the merger with Bral has only just been given th ego-ahead so there hasn't been too much info. on what the deal will consist of. I'm pritty sure that we won't be getting a deal that will allow us to bid for mainline after five years like yourselves and I think that we will be kept seperate from BA.I think I'd rather be in a cityflyer pilots shoesat the moment!

6th May 2001, 19:05

I think you're probably correct in your BA 'deal' prognosis (not what you want to hear I know). My reason for saying that is that 'The Company' wants to have the flexibilty of using all its assets how it wishes and CFE is now one of its assets (since being bought by BA). Fair enough, so far. However, what they were trying to do was have CFE fly more of the routes from LGW and effectively get the BA work done by a cheaper workforce. Well, you've got to give it to them for trying but it was never going to happen. There are enough of us with a vested interest in the long-term future of BA pilots (proper) to ensure that they didn't try to keep their 'undercutting' policy on tracks.

What they tried to say, is that CFE pilots are now BA pilots because BA owns the company and since only BA pilots can fly BA routes it was now alright for CFE to fly the LGW routes.

Now calling CFE BA is fine and calling the CFE pilots BA pilots is fine, but since they are BA pilots they should be on a BA contract and get paid BA money and BA allowances etc. That way 'we' are not being sold out through cheaper labour (which will do NOBODY in the UK airline pilot business any favours in the future).

I'm getting to the point, don't worry.

Now CFE are going to be BA and now they are going to get BA payments I think we are all more than happy that they should fly the BA routes. There is nothing personal against the people themselves that we didn't want them doing this before, just looking after 3500 people's interests. I say welcome to you all. I hope you enjoy the deal and that you are more than happy to be where you are. Don't worry about being 'just a number'. You are still flying from LGW and that's where the decent side of BA still lives (as an LHR based flyer I don't get down there often enough). The atmoshere and people at LGW is so much nicer and the 'snobbery' of Big BA doesn't exist. I know you CFE guys will like it.

Now Brymon and BRAL is a different kettle of fish really (but please correct me if I'm wrong). The existing proposal is not for either company to start flying 'main' BA routes and therefore this doesn't really affect the 'main' BA pilot agreement (although I'll have to look at the Regional agreement a lot more carefully before I go and dig myself a HUGE hole). Anyway, my guess is that because you are basically continuing to do the same job and fly the same routes as before you are not 'undercutting' BRAL or Mainline BA (EoG included). This means that there is no particular reason for getting you on a 'proper' BA conract. As I said; not what you want to hear. I would be delighted if I was wrong. The more pilots we can get in the UK getting better conditions the happier I'll be and I don't care what you fly or where you fly it from.

Before people start jumping down my neck with calls of 'arrogant BA git' etc, because I have used phrases such as 'BA proper'etc, please look at the context in which they were used and consult a dictionary if required.

I repeat what I say about CFE. I know you will be made very welcome, have a lot better lifestyle and soon discover that because we fly for a big airline it doesn't necessarily make us all complete w*&%ers....we leave that to a select few!!

Chocolates aweigh,


You Ain't Seen Me - Right !!

Secret Squirrel
6th May 2001, 21:59
Thank you Pontius. Your welcome is gratifying indeed. Most of us know a good thing when we see it and I'm confident that the vote will be carried and common sense will prevail.


Very funny, Scotty. Now beam up my clothes!

7th May 2001, 20:37
Thank you for that up beat posting Pontius. I know the -Ve side of being "a number". To balance the sum however, I know the Ts & Cs and security will out number the -Ve side.

Thank you for your welcome.

Next the vote.