Do Crewing ever care??

[gibbemonk]

after doing a recent duty, a colleage of mine was ranting and raving about the answers given to him about his next duty and whether it is legal?

just to high-light the points of his previous duty:

left place of rest at:- 02:30z
crewing placed delay on delay line at:- 02:40z
crew member arrived at crew room at:- 03:55z (revised report time 07:00z)
crew memeber discovers delay at:- 04:40z (stays within the crew room/terminal area)
crew member departs for 2 sector duty at 10:30z
lands back at base at:- 19:20z
Duty period ends at:- 20:00z

this crew members next duty is at 09:00z the following day!

Q1: is the duty carried out by the crew member legal?
Q2: is the duty the next day legal?

the crew member was given the following suggestions by the crewing department to improve his legallitly for future dates:-

a) move closer, although he lives within the airliner's stated time away from base to arrive when on stand-by
b) maybe they should pull over and check the delayline before/after crossing the 'Dartford Bridge'

Q3: has anyone else be told of stupid inappropriate nonesense by their crewing department?

[britanniaboy]

It really all depends on what the original report time was as to whether the duty the next day is legal - never mind whether the duty they carried out was legal.

What was the original report for the duty?

[MrHorgy]

I was under the impression if you got to the crewroom before being notified of the delay you were technically on duty and thus you were limited by your time off requirements - I remember one crewmember who would instruct crewing on what he was and was not going to do - luckily he had a permanant contract! :}

If it was my airline he wouldn't be legal, as he's been on duty for 16hrs 5minutes - thus he needs 17hrs 5mins off. Meaning he can come back on duty for 13.05z.

Of course, he could always ring in fatigued, and if he was pulled up on it, it wouldn't do any harm to throw in crewing's 'suggestions'.

Horgy

[britanniaboy]

It all boils down to what his original report was though, and if they called crewing when they picked up the delay message.

And if (s)he's been on duty for 16hr 05min then his hours off need only be 15hr 5min (i.e. 11 hours or one hour less than the total duty time, whichever is greater)

[MrHorgy]

And if (s)he's been on duty for 16hr 05min then his hours off need only be 15hr 5min (i.e. 11 hours or one hour less than the total duty time, whichever is greater)

I knew it was something like that, i'm feeling a bit backwards because i'm sitting here on standby :ugh:

Horgy

[britanniaboy]

Better backwards than sideways! :bored:

Hate SBYs! Most offensive part of the job! EucH!:yuk:

[gibbemonk]

this crew member as well as others (included me) reported for the stated on time on their rosters of 04:45z.

crewing department had revised the report time to 07:00z

crewing systems used for crew members to sign on states 04:45z

crewing department state that crew members duty start at 07:00z
flight deck paperwork is also states this.

the only bit of infomation we know is that cap 371 states that you duty sign on cannot change once you have left your place of rest!

[britanniaboy]

At the time of discovering the dealy, your colleague should have called crewing to inform them that she had reported and also spoken to the Captain so that her duty time started at 0445Z.

Does your company have a policy that you call the delay line prior to every flight? That she didn't call it could be a problem as technically crewing have attempted to inform her.

Also, if your colleage is a member of the Union I suggest that she gets in touch with them.

Technically she is legal for the duty the next day (at least by the journey log of the flight she just did), though if she went fatigued 1.5 hours prior to the report for the next duty, then she does have exceptional circumstances from the previous day. Again, it all depends (unfortunately) if she is permanent.

I would also reccomend Chirping this - it's passed on to the airline for response and also to the CAA and remains confidential.

[gibbemonk]

the delay line is reposbilitly of the crew member as stated by the company, we have no issues with that. the issue is the time of the delay put onto the delay line.

in this case the delay was placed after the crew member has left place of rest.
point 1: how are you supposed to use your phone while driving??
point 2: how are you supposed to pull over on a motorway to use your phone??

the biggest issue we have is that although crew live within 90 minutes of the airport, crew leave well before to make sure thye are on time for any unforseen circumstances. so why isn't the delayed put on sooner. crewing you on the delay 3hours before notifing crew

[britanniaboy]

But when were crewing notified of the delay?

[Globe2004]

Hi Gibbemonk

The time a crew member leaves their place of rest has no bearing on duty hours at all. Where a crew member lives or stays prior to a flight cannot be controlled (except obviously on standby when most airlines stipulate a maximum call out time).

Duty hours are governed by the time a flight is scheduled to report. At my airline we have to check the delay line no more than 2 hours prior to scheduled report. If we don't do this and a delay is subsequently posted, that is our responsibility, regardless of whether we were en route or not.

At my airline, the situation you describe would fall into that bracket as you left at STD -2hrs 15mins. On that basis, assuming whichever ailrine you work for does the same, your duty day was legal as was your subsequent day's duty.

To be honest I think I'd have got the same reply from my crewing department given the circumstances. Harsh, I know, but if there is a procedure in place and you don't follow it, I guess you don't have much comeback.

Cheers

Globe

[gibbemonk]

Hi globe

you answers are very reasonable and make sense. the problem we have is that when does a duty start. at our airline with have a computerized system which didn't state that their was delay, and crew the signed-in as they believe to be their normal report time, then to discover the delay and revised report time.

as i understand, when you arrive at work and sign-in your duty period has started and therefore you are under control of the airline of operational duties.

if this is true, this crew member could not have done a duty after 13hours rest.

[britanniaboy]

From Cap 371:

10 Delayed Reporting Time in a Single FDP

10.1 When a crew member is informed of a delay to the reporting time due to a changed schedule, before leaving the place of rest, the FDP shall be calculated as follows. When the delay is less than 4 hours, the maximum FDP allowed shall be based on the original report time and the FDP shall start at the actual report time. Where the delay is 4 hours or more, the maximum FDP shall be based on the more limiting time band of the planned and the actual report time and the FDP starts 4 hours after the original report time.

10.2 When an operator informs a crew member before leaving the place of rest of a delay in reporting time of 10 hours or more ahead, and that crew member is not further disturbed by the operator until a mutually agreed hour, then that elapsed time is classed as a rest period. If, upon the resumption of duty, further delays occur, then the appropriate criteria in this paragraph and paragraph 10.1 above shall be applied to the re-arranged reporting time.


That's the law as it stands.

The problem in this case is that your friend didn't call the delay line; and we don't know when crewing were advised of the delay to departure.

As much as people moan about crewing, I don't envy them their job and have the utmost respect for them. Sure, some of them can be ratty and rude to us on the phone, but the way I hear some crew speaking to crewing on the phone it's no wonder. We moan about PAX taking out their frustration at the airline on us: we're doing the exact same thing when we have a go at crewing (most of the time).

[ozymandias1442]

The problem in this case is that your friend didn't call the delay line; and we don't know when crewing were advised of the delay to departure.
As much as people moan about crewing, I don't envy them their job and have the utmost respect for them. Sure, some of them can be ratty and rude to us on the phone, but the way I hear some crew speaking to crewing on the phone it's no wonder. We moan about PAX taking out their frustration at the airline on us: we're doing the exact same thing when we have a go at crewing (most of the time).
Thank you Britanniaboy.. The Scheduling (Crewing) job here in the states is like trying to get all the colors of a Rubiks Cube on the same side when Ops/ Mx / Catering are constantly changing colors. Iworked as a dispatcher before Sept. 11 and even had a FA call there to yell (AND I MEAN YELL) at me for canx his trip to his destination b/c a tornado took out the ILS. I thought it was the CA at the time but when I found out it was the FA I just xferd to Scheduling... felt bad understand he was going home but it happens.
The Scheduling department is a Reactionary department. You cant be Proacive because of all the changes that go on throughout the shifts. If your coleague calls in sick or fatigued then that starts the ball rolling for the next day for someone else now that crew is moving and the delay is not posted in a timely manner and then they all show for a flight while STBY is on his/her way. I have had the pleasure of having a pilot tell me "you cant call me out on a trip I am on standby".. my reply was "yea and.... "

Its a hard enough job to do when its running "Smoothly" but we do understand that changes affect the Pilot/FA's lives but it is the only Human factor to deal with from the GCC or SOCC standpoint. I mean a plane doesnt complain to much when you say its not going anywhere for a while. MX smiles b/c they can find new ways to break it, Catering might have a prob if the a/c was loaded. Most of the time when the phone rings at scheduling the odds are that the person calling is not happy.