Qantas to cut wages up to 50% for aircrew?

[multi_engined]

I have recently heard through word of mouth in the industry that Qantas is going to be cutting wages earnt by pilots by up to 50% in the future. Word is that this will have occurred by the time now studying CPL students would attain a job with the carrier... Anyone know anything about this?

So your wage would be cut to about 125,000 annually if you were a 747-400 captain.

[drshmoo]

:} But that would mean undercutting the jet star boys, thats not fair to them

[Crossbleed]

Unless you're a rat-pack cadet, you'll have a long, looong, oh so looonnng! time to worry about that little furfy me old (young) matey (Glad ya got the ASIC thing sorted). Whaddya wanna be one one of them fer anyway??!!
Hmmm?:rolleyes:

[PammyAnderson]

While I am quite shore that your so called rumour is more what the GA guys are chatting, it doesnt really take Einstein to figure out that this is the Dixon goal. (As has been chatted about here on many many other threads)

Q mainline are heading for a paycut in some sort of way I think most people agree. (By default) Who knows? it may be through rostering? (everyone to just fly the bare min 55 hours and magically having the rest of the flying hours eaten by the tumour of jetstar). It may be by a "cathay B type" pay sytem.
(IE current wages stand however all promotions to CPT, to FO from SO etc etc are now on this wage) or it may just be by aircraft type. (i.e you can do the flying however this is the conditions! ... u dont want it, ok then, we will tender it out.... etc etc). Unfortunately Dixon has his sights set on all of us. And with the new industrial laws, a completely usless AIPA, divided pilot group both internally within the company and even more so within the OZ industry, the future is not bright.

[Crossbleed]

Just curious Pammy, what did you wear to the interview?:E

[DirectAnywhere]

That's in pretty f%^king poor taste Schmitt.

Lucky it's not a picture of Mohammed or you'd have a fatwah on you now.

[sling load]

Horst Schmitt
Thats disgusting

[Crossbleed]

Aaaah, yes. Saw that one somewhere else too. I was thinking more along the lines of a catsuit and perhaps a Desert-Eagle hanging loosely offa the hip. Give the starched-collars on the (4th Floor?, can't remember,still traumatised), at QCC something to think about.
You were in church Friday and Monday then Slingy Eh?!

Cross/Bleeed.

[Poto]

Does anyone believe that this government will survive with this legislation. Labour are hopeless but Johnny has given them a golden opportunity till kill 'em next time around. :\

[Redstone]

As much as it pains me to say, I don't think the federal Labour Party have a snowflakes at the next federal election. Joe public has a short memory and I don't believe the IR reforms are really going to bite his ass for a few years to come. Johnny's got one left in him, especially with that massive war chest full of out tax dollars he refuses to spend (except on pork barrels)

[cartexchange]

Does anyone believe that this government will survive with this legislation. Labour are hopeless but Johnny has given them a golden opportunity till kill 'em next time around. :\

from my recollection and many conversations I seem to recall all the pilots voting liberal!
I think they thought they were immune to the legislation that was about to be introduced, one even told me once that only cabin crew and the "rest" of Qantas would be affected! they were management and therefore not part of the new IR.
I must admit we all had a chucke! hmmmm this by the way was said in public at the AKL bar.... there were about 8 of us standing around when this was said, what was even more disturbing the other pilots just nodded their heads!
Well boys looks like the AIPA vaccination did not work!

[Sunfish]

Labor cannot win with blowhard Beazley running it.

[Redstone]

Labor cannot win with blowhard Beazley running it.

Correct. To coin a phrase "it's time" to put a broom through the joint.

[superfrozo]

:mad:

It boils my blood to see some of the pathetic knee jerk reactions of people here - The picture deleted by big brother was no more offensive than any of the ten thousand political cartoons published on a daily basis in any newspaper around the Western world. Why is a religious image immune from being used in an entirely appropriate satirical context?

:confused:

No pun intended but this holier than thou approach of the rent-a-threat PC brigade who fired off the 'disgusting' and 'poor taste' comments makes me far more nauseous than the aforementioned image. To quote Michael Palin quoting Jesus in "Life of Brian": "There's just no pleasing some people."
Lighten up and get off your high horses.

Rant mode OFF:*

Oh, as for the thread topic - I agree, QF mainline wages will go the way of the B/C and possibly even D scale with future intakes. The odds are unbackable:suspect:

[DirectAnywhere]

The image was neither appropriate, satirical, funny nor did it make any effective point.

Religious images aren't immune from appropriate satirical comment but how did this particular image assist Schmitt to make his/her point? That crap wouldn't even make it past the editor's secretary if it was submitted to a paper.

To display the crucified Christ with QANTAS, JETSTAR and AIPA emblazoned upon his body just isn't funny and would be deeply offensive to a lot of people.

I'm not a Christian and I'm probably one of the most un-PC blokes I know. I'm obviously not the only one that thought the image was a disgrace and I would think if more people had seen it they would probably agree.

In short, inappropriate, childish, not funny and ineffective.

[Metro man]

Cathay style "B" and possibly "C" scales for new joiners, who will be rostered for overtime. Current "A" scale continues for present drivers, but with very limited overtime to keep costs down.

In time Jetstar gets rolled back into QANTAS on J* conditions. Aircraft in QANTAS colours but with J* name underneath in smaller letters ala QANTAS LINK, NJS 146s etc, on the thinner routes.

QF mainline only on peak routes SYD - ML, SYD - LAX, etc.

Different pilot groups on different conditions pitted against each other for work.

Divide and rule:hmm:

[Woomera]

DirectAnywhere pretty well summed up the situation. Your argument is weak, superfrozo. Politics and religion are poles apart.:mad:
This Woomera is probably one of the least religious and PC persons around, however I found it deeply offensive in the extreme. Vilifying a religious symbol to to promote one's opininion on industrial matters is the height of obscenity, and will not be tolerated on PPRuNe. This is regardless of denomination.
And, as a reminder, racial and sexual vilification will not be tolerated here either.:yuk:
Superfrozo, the image was linked to PIREP. You might find the atmosphere over there more suited to your style of thinking.
Woomera (Eastern States)

[superfrozo]

The image was neither appropriate, satirical, funny nor did it make any effective point.:rolleyes:


DA, I beg to differ...
"satire, term applied to any work of literature or art whose objective is ridicule. It is more easily recognized than defined. From ancient times satirists have shared a common aim: to expose foolishness in all its guises—vanity, hypocrisy, pedantry, idolatry, bigotry, sentimentality—and to effect reform through such exposure. The many diverse forms their statements have taken reflect the origin of the word satire, which is derived from the Latin satura, meaning “dish of mixed fruits,” hence a medley."

This was textbook satire and as for appropriate & funny, these are subjective terms that normally require the individual to decide for theselves. However, yours and others "sacred cow" approach to censorship protected many poor sensitive souls (on PPrune???) from ever having the opportunity to decide for themselves. This was not some image of Christ imersed in urine by a pathetic self-serving "shock-jock artist" in a deliberate attempt to offend. The use of an iconic religious image appears to have clouded your ability to appreciate it's rather clever (again, my opinion) and insightful statement on the inter-relationship of JQ/QF/AIPA. You may wan't to check your facts re: "...the crucified Christ with QANTAS, JETSTAR and AIPA emblazoned upon his body..." JETSTAR & AIPA were not emblazoned on his body, the were the cross that Qantas was crucified on. That was the point. Ergo: Christ was not the object of ridicule.

Whilst I'm on the topic of personal opinions, here's one I consider inappropriate, childish, not funny and ineffective.:

That's in pretty f%^king poor taste Schmitt.

Lucky it's not a picture of Mohammed or you'd have a fatwah on you now.

Sound familiar?

Finally, apologies to the originator - I will immediately cease and desist on highjacking your thread. I'm just tired of the book burners who self-appoint on all matters of censorship, especially those masquerading under the banner of "religious tolerance" (oxymoron?).;)

[Angle of Attack]

Good old religion lol, Omg I can't beleive half smart and decent people believe that junk anymore although I'm told more are succumbing to its so called charm lately in OZ.

By the way since when were pilots part of management?? haha the most idiotic thing Ive heard, you must be cabin crew. The only management I am part of is managing to keep you and the pax in one piece each time I fly!

Another point not all the pilots vote liberal! (although I admit most of them do!)


I guess the AIPA vaccination of having QF in 6 simultaneous Federal Court cases is a lot worse than the flight attendants union did! HA!


And 50% pay cut? well so be it but there won't be any current pilots left working at QF! thats a certainty! I can move as swifly as a bird of prey to find the next employer to latch on to! Some of those pilots arent totally dependant and not able to move on you know! ;)

Who is this Jesus bloke anyway?

[Crossbleed]

"The image was neither appropriate, satirical, funny nor did it make any effective point."
I thought it appropriate in the context of Rat mainline wage slashing ref: J*. The latters raison d'etre, surely?
Whether or not it's satirical is too subjective I reckon, and I'll decide that for meself thankyou very much.
Funny? See above.
The effective point, I believe, 'scuse me Superfrozo, is that Ratline will be, (using religious imagery), nailed to a cross eventually with wages given the recent triumph at the altar of Australian Aviation with J* negotiations.
I think we are getting a little precious over this one, honestly. I mean it wasn't a paedophile or some little morsel from ogrish.com , now was it?
I didn't see villification of a religious icon, others were being traduced with that picture.
Did Woomera mean denomination or religious persuasion? And before any baying for blood begins I believe in the Almighty. The very reason the thread was conceived, no?

[QFinsider]

Oh dear a 50% paycut...

Yes and I want a brand new mercedes...
Statement of preference...
Not gunna happen...

QF aren't stupid...Until the J* disaster can replicate revenue making QF routes they won't try it..Revenue would suffer...

Hmmm
50% pay cut
80% higher sick leave...
30% extra fuel
50% standown after diversion...No extension
50% increase in week 7 sick leave...go to love pattern protection....
50% of flights way below optimum, or chasing decreased TAS

If it is here it must be true....
No change to existing environment until 2010..The other thing working for QF flight crew, indeed for all flight crew is the age demographic..Can't fly forever:E
Boy I would hate to try and sell it to the shareholders...What a pup:E

[Metro man]

What then QANTAS pilots are up against is the large supply of GA pilots in Australia who can replace them. Whilst CX and EK have no local pool of talent to tap into QF have thousands of applications from locals, and the skills and experience to train them.

Even if QF wages were lowered by 50% they would still be attractive to piston and turbine twin drivers.

Whilst CX, EK, SQ etc have to make it worthwhile to change countries, QF offer the chance to remain at home or prehaps shift interstate. Means a lot to some people.

Unfortunately being realistic about the new industrial relations laws,QF pilots will probably get shafted. Anyone think they could win 1989 mk2 ?:(

[BankAngle50]

MetroMan
QANTAS pilots are up against is the large supply of GA pilots in Australia who can replace them.:ugh:
Suggest you continue flying your pathetic, ear shattering, 19 seat puddle jumper, rather than making idiotic statements like above; simply to aggravate the OneStar situation further. You may also wish to ask the question why you are still flying a clapped out piece of junk Metro and unable to even reach the OneStars ranks. After all, you intimate flying a jet is so easy. Fool!

Another ignorant looser wannabe on a quest to lower conditions further!:yuk:

[Crossbleed]

Suggest you continue flying your pathetic, ear shattering, 19 seat puddle jumper
Whoah WHoah WHOAH there!!
What, never flown a man's plane buddy? Single-pilot IFR iced-up, no auto-pilot, been in solid cloud for the last hour and setting up for an NDB to mins. at night on the edge of a CB??.....Didn't think so. :yuk:
That is the most elitist, inflamatory poop I've seen in a while. With responses like that you expect any sort of cammeraderie from the boys and girls in GA ranks coming up to airline employment?? Don't you remember what it was like back there??.....Didn't think so.:yuk:
and unable to even reach the OneStars ranks. Whaddya mean EVEN??!! More trash.
Did you even read MM's post?
you intimate flying a jet is so easy. Fool!
He intimated no such thing.
Another ignorant looser
That's too good. Keep rolling the bank on, to about 110 should do ya.
OUT.

[Metro man]

Negative Bank Angle, must get around to changing type and location in my profile :) Now starting on a jet in Asia. Here supply and demand is in my favour, only 1 local pilot out of approx 120, rest expats. Good promotion prospects too, 2 years to upgrade to lhs. Better money and less tax.

Another big bang like 1989 probably not needed, just offer new 744 S/O $50 000, 737 F/O $80 000 CPT $150 000/ year. Will be no shortage of applicants.

Supply and demand is not in favour of new joiners in Australia, not trying to undermine your conditions just being realistic. Market forces are on the companies side.

For those willing to use market forces to their advantage try applying to ASIANA, Korean Air, Vietnam Airlines etc

You would do more for pilots in Australia is you left, there by showing Geoff there is a limit to how hard he can push before he starts losing crews and has increased training costs. My leaving gave a new CPL his first job on a C206 somewhere in the bush as the queue moved up behind me.:)

Whilst I do have alot to learn about jet operations, I do enjoy hand flying an ILS with flight director and auto thrust. It makes life so much easier than having to judge it manually. Turning on the autopilot at 100' and watching it fly the SID without having to worry about making turns or busting altitudes is pretty good too.;)

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

What I actually thought he was alluding to was that any GA pilot could just jump into a jet and off they go. That's the way I read it. It was a pretty silly post I thought.

[Thumbs up]

Well I can see Metro Man has successfully got up the nose of QF Insider and BA50.
Obviously a situation no Qantas Pilot wants to see themselves in,
Not good for you ,and
not good for the industry.
But,Like Metro man I bet you both had some time in your careers flying something like aclapped out piece of junk Metro .
Future Qantas Pilots will come from origins such as these.
Here's something else that you might give you vertigo.
QANTAS PLANES ARE NO HARDER TO FLY THAN ANYONE ELSES PLANES
INCLUDING METRO MANS!!!.
Now this 50% deal may be a wind up,in part,but unless you Turkey's get your act together its going to be a reality.
You've worked in your sheltered workshop for to long and reality is catching up.Trouble is you can't see it.
QF aren't stupid...Until the J* disaster can replicate revenue making QF routes they won't try it..Revenue would suffer...
You're dead right Insider,QF aren't stupid,so what makes you think that J* will be flying Qantas routes.
My money is that J* crew will be flying Rat tails in which case there will not be any,
50% pay cut
80% higher sick leave...
30% extra fuel
50% standown after diversion...No extension
50% increase in week 7 sick leave...go to love pattern protection....
50% of flights way below optimum, or chasing decreased TAS

My position is not to bring you guys down;
My hope is that you'll all be able to maintain your T&C's and the rest of the industry will follow you.
To do that you guys need to make a huge effort and fight to maintain your conditions cause all I see on Qrewroom is a lot of musical chairs Patty cake Patty cake stuff !!!.
Look at the changes in the last few years and where do you see yourselves in 5 years time?....Want me to answer that?.
Slowly,slowly it will happen.
Thumbs

[404 Titan]

Metro man
What then QANTAS pilots are up against is the large supply of GA pilots in Australia who can replace them. Whilst CX and EK have no local pool of talent to tap into QF have thousands of applications from locals, and the skills and experience to train them.
I’m sorry to burst your bubble but where do you think CX and EK get most of there pilots from? A little clue, it aint from their own countries.
Even if QF wages were lowered by 50% they would still be attractive to piston and turbine twin drivers.
I did many years in GA, more than ten in various levels including check and training up to management pilot level before I moved on to the majors and let me tell you if you think being able to fly a bug smasher instantly qualifies you for the left seat of a heavy then it just goes to show how new and inexperienced you are in this industry. If the term being force fed through a fire hose could describe the learning curve, it still doesn’t do it justice. Senior first officers up are difficult and expensive to replace because of the vast experience they generally have. Most GA drivers in Australia wouldn’t come close to being able to fill those boots.
Whilst I do have alot to learn about jet operations, I do enjoy hand flying an ILS with flight director and auto thrust. It makes life so much easier than having to judge it manually. Turning on the autopilot at 100' and watching it fly the SID without having to worry about making turns or busting altitudes is pretty good too.
Just goes to prove my point of your immaturity in this operation. As you said you have a lot to learn.

[Crossbleed]

Degrading others T&C is no victory for anyone. I for one don't want it. Suggesting any GA driver can jump into a jet and "off they go" may seem a stretch, but it happens all over the world with 300hr total timers in the burners. ALL the time! Doesn't the rats penchant for Cadets prove the case? Ya can't tell me it's simply lack of supply from the GA ranks unless you subscribe to the theory "type" of throttle-monkey they're after, as opposed to those who've lived in the back of their HQ ute in the dust, and are really hungry to move up in the world (Cue: psyche tests!)
AAhh dunno. Dinners burning back soon.
MM Pm me asap.:ok:

[Metro man]

1. CX used to get alot of their pilots from other airlines, now that their terms and conditions aren't as good they are taking GA drivers whose applications wouldn't have got a second look 15 years ago.

2.EK used to get alot of their pilots from other airlines, now that their terms and conditions aren't as good they are battling for crews http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=220419

3.Note that I never implied it was easy to replace a senior first officer. A 744 S/O yes, 737 F/O - plenty in Europe doing that job straight from training. How many 8-10 year F/Os around ready to upgrade to 737 Capt, must be a few. 744/A330 Capt not easy as evidenced by terms on offer abroad. Where did I suggest flying a bugsmasher qualified for left seat on a heavy ?

4. Read my first post

'Cathay style "B" and possibly "C" scales for new joiners, who will be rostered for overtime. Current "A" scale continues for present drivers, but with very limited overtime to keep costs down.

In time Jetstar gets rolled back into QANTAS on J* conditions. Aircraft in QANTAS colours but with J* name underneath in smaller letters ala QANTAS LINK, NJS 146s etc, on the thinner routes.

QF mainline only on peak routes SYD - ML, SYD - LAX, etc.

Different pilot groups on different conditions pitted against each other for work.

Divide and rule'

Does that sound realistic or not ?

5. Conditions for airline pilots on the way down for the moment in the western world, though Easy Jet and Ryan Air are starting to feel shortages. Ask BA pilots about their final salary pensions, or DELTA pilots about what's left of their pension scheme.

6. How can QANTAS pay their 737 drivers $250 000 vs $150 000 for Virgin Blue pilots. Market forces again, however US$12 000/month tax free + houses etc available for 737/A320 training captains in India if interested.

7. No arguments about having alot to learn and if and when my employer feels ready to give me an upgrade I hope I don't disappoint. Mean while sit in the right and gain valuable experience.

[Dropt McGutz]

Where did you get the figure of $250,000 for a 737 QF captain? Because it's wrong, more like $200,000 and I thought Virgin were on more than you quoted as well.

[Crossbleed]

C404: I think he meant 250ft, then again, dunno about Le Bus!
So Metro Man, arise, I knight thee, ummm, what??
Lessee, Seattle Whale, Frog 340, C'mon give us a hint.:D

[Metro man]

All right I stand corrected, there is no way QF could take a C402 pilot and train him to be a 737 F/O. It's never been done before and any attempt is doomed to failure. It was a silly idea.

Though what QF will do when it's present pilot workforce has retired is beyond me. :rolleyes:

[Keg]

3.Note that I never implied it was easy to replace a senior first officer.

No, you didn't imply anything about F/Os at all. You did say directly that GA pilots could replace us. You implied that it was 'easy'. Perhaps your direct comments would remind you.

What then QANTAS pilots are up against is the large supply of GA pilots in Australia who can replace them.

You then went on to say


A 744 S/O yes, 737 F/O - plenty in Europe doing that job straight from training. How many 8-10 year F/Os around ready to upgrade to 737 Capt, must be a few. 744/A330 Capt not easy as evidenced by terms on offer abroad. Where did I suggest flying a bugsmasher qualified for left seat on a heavy ?

A 744 S/O still takes at least three months to get online. A 737 F/O from a direct entry would take another month or two on top of that! Given that most of the senior guys (training captains) won't work for 50% pay and can get deals elsewhere and will go , who will train them? Given that the pay will be 50% of thereabouts of current conditions, don't expect a rush of ex-pats back from o/s. They won't be interested in rates about 1/3 of what they'd be getting at the moment!

At the end of the day though, we're all replaceable.- even you Metro The question is in what time frame and at what cost to the airline whilst they do it. 'Cost' isn't just the dollars and cents of replacing crew. I'm not naieve enough to believe that I CAN'T be replaced but I also know that this comes at a cost. '89 demonstrated that sometimes, the government of the day and the airline is prepared to ante up. I'm also confident that a lot of guys have their eyes wide open as to the prospects of where this is headed.

The next thing. B, C and D scales. Whilst I voted 'no' to what some have described as a B-scale in the Singapore basing, if the tax issues are sorted out to the advantage of the crew, there could well be the case where the (unmarried or single or no dependents) crew up there end up financially in front. However, beyond that, a B, C or D scale would have to be approved by the current pilots in our next EBA. We have one more EBA to go and it's not until the expiration of that (probably in 2010 or thereabouts) that we have to start worrying about AWAs and so on. Most of us are adverse to B-scales and so I won't sign on for something that disadvantages a new joiner. However, once that EBA does expire, all bets are off anyway as we'll ALL be on B, C and D scales! :rolleyes:

So in short Metro, are you being arrogant or did you speak poorly? Either way, it's probably best to admit which one it is now. That way we can all move on! :E

[404 Titan]

Metro man
CX used to get alot of their pilots from other airlines, now that their terms and conditions aren't as good they are taking GA drivers whose applications wouldn't have got a second look 15 years ago.
That’s because 15 years ago we didn’t have S/O’s. If you want to compare apples with apples then let’s look at the requirements to get in as a direct entry F/O on the freighter fleet. If you don’t have military fast jet, business jet, Air transport jet or turbo prop greater the 20T then forget it. A great proportion of those getting in at present have thousands of hours heavy jet or military fast jet. Not light GA time.

The demographics of a large proportion of the pilots at CX prior to 1989 were ex military, i.e. RAF, RAAF, RNZAF and CAF. From 1989 to about 1993 it was ex military and former dispute pilots from Australia. From 1993 onwards most applicants to the CX pax fleet were via the DESO or cadet scheme.

By the way your mate who is in CX and the largest thing he flew prior to coming here was a Navaho would have come in here as a direct entry SO not an FO.
'Cathay style "B" and possibly "C" scales for new joiners, who will be rostered for overtime. Current "A" scale continues for present drivers, but with very limited overtime to keep costs down.
All pilots on the Pax fleet are still being offered “B” scale. The “C” scale your mention is what is offered on the freighter fleet. On the topic of “A” scalers and overtime, a lot of them would take you to task regarding the overtime they are getting. In some cases it is so bad some are have their leave cancelled on them just to fill the roster.

[Metro man]

We could all probably agree that we live in "interesting times" for flight crew. Unfortunately we do not have a good record of standing together and there are people who wouldn't think twice about taking your job on far lesser conditions if given half a chance. Recent events at CX come to mind ?

In Australia, apart from the present conditions in QF mainline, most pilots jobs don't compare well with other professions. Eg. RFDS flight nurse earns more than B200 driver, decent truck driver does better than turbine f/os etc

Dragging QANTAS conditions down won't improve the pay of the light aircraft pilots. But realistically can they be sustained in the face of falling conditions in most other western airlines. Half of the US domestic airline industry is operating under bankrupcy protection, only the low cost operators profitable. Just seen on the news oil at US$72/barrel.

With many people just taking the cheapest fare on the day, the consumer doesn't care about your pay packet, just his wallet.

Unfortunately QF pilots have the disadvantage that there are a lot of pilots in Oz who would jump at their jobs even at greatly reduced conditions. Yes time and money for training comes into it, but it has happened once already and who won pilots or management ?

With the tall poppy factor present I doubt there would be much sympathy for airline pilots defending their "$200 000+ and only works 60 hours a month jobs" from the public.

Try calling QF human resources and telling them you're a Capt/FO on an (insert present type) and you want a job. Ask if they are negotiable on conditions. See what sort of a reaction you get. Next call PARC or Rishworth, tell them you are a 737/A320,330 training captain willing to work in China or India. Note different reactions.

Geoff Dixon has to get costs down to remain competative, obviously reducing directors salaries is out of the question. Cabin crew, engineering being outsourced already so who does that leave next. Does anyone think the pilots will come off best in a confrontation.

[ITCZ]

"The issue here ain't pussy. The issue here is monkey!" Gus Grissom in The Right Stuff

Again and again we here Ppruners slagging other pilots. AIPA takes JQ to court. QF pilots tell GA pilots they can't do their job. GA pilots tell QF pilots they would do their job for half the money.

Not pussy. Monkey.

Thus far, no airline flying RPT pax is dispatching completely automated jets. They still need two pilots. Those pilots need to meet minimum experience and abililty standards.

GA pilots - sure, a jet is an aeroplane. But until you check to line on a jet, don't assume your skill set is adequate. You know you get fark all training in GA. You know your check and training, if it exists, is under resourced.
Until then, you will be held in the same regard as virgins giving advice to married men with children on how to please their womenfolk. Ideas, but no understanding.

Experienced jet pilots... the only difference between you and the guy on the navajo is you got the chance to do the training and fly the line. Sure, it took self discipline and commitment to drink from the fire hose without spilling too many drops, but it ain't pioneering stuff. You walk a well trodden path. Really, you know that is the only difference between you and her/him. So cut out the five or so years of line flying and what is the difference? Someone else's SOP and knowledge that you just happened to be exposed to.

Yet this acquired knowledge, skill and experience has value. Without it, aeroplanes sit on the ground and don't make any money.

After a few years we all have mates flying all over the world. I can name former C206 and C210 colleagues that did the hard yards that are now captains and fo's in cathay, emirates, qantas, virgin, ryanair, air nz, dragonair. You name it. They were GA, now they are airline. Which airline they got is dependent more on luck and timing than skill and ability.
So don't kid yourself about how good you are.

Start thinking like a member of a profession rather than a Labor party faction. Airlines can't buy 3,000 hr of GA experience for their people. It is just too goddamned expensive.

If you sell it to them for next to nothing, we have only ourselves to blame.
Nobody is holding a gun to our head to pay for A320 or B737 ratings.

Nobody has kidnapped your children and told you to accept less money in your contract. These things become 'industry standard' :yuk: because a fair number of us actually farking paid for them!

Market forces cut both ways. If you sell your house for $300k because you are scared, instead of holding out for $600k because you know what it is worth, you will be the loser.

Pilots are big on talk, but when it comes to the crunch, most pilots are soft-corks.

Sad but true.

[nomorecatering]

Interesting thread, i cant understand why so much time is spent worrying about the inevitable, unfortunately theres no point in worrying about something you cant change, and theres not thing 1 anybody can do about it.

BankAngle50's posts illustrate some of the root causes of this impending doom. There is no chance of any positive outcome while the pilot community is in a war to the death with each other. QF management would look at this thread with glee, quietly reflecting on sun tsus advice, before you take on your enemy, you must divide them first. BA50's attitude in effect gives GD a free kick.

If the AIPA, AP or who ever was the union ever in the past looked after the lowly GA side more, then there may not be the army of GA drivers who would in an instant, jump in. even if every QF pilot walked, it would be only a matter of months, if not weeks before services were restored, management would see to that, be under no ilusion.

It's time that the pilot community worked together, as the ramifications are serious. Plenty of Chineese, mexicans, indians etc etc who would work for 80% less. And almost no Aussies flying for QF.

[Ozgrade3]

Life can seem cruel sometimes, 50% pay cut, or loose your job, car, house or what ever, and ones problems can seem huge. You feel like everything is going against you. But sometimes you have to take a step back. If you have your health you are ok, unfortunately, due to the incompatence of others, some dont even have that.

Tonight on A Current Affair there was a story about a young first time mum in Qld who after giving birth to her first chile, was sent home. The next day she complained of pain and ashed to be looked at. They fobber her off saying take a Panadol and go lay down. Over the next 3 days she tried to get treatment on sevaral occasons and was each time fobbed off.

Finally, she collapesed and had to be choppered to Brisbane, where a week later they AMPUTATED BOTH LEGS. Further more, later this week, they will AMPUTATE ALL HER FINGERS. Shes in her early 20's and quite a gorgeous girl. all from toxic shock syndrome causing gangrene.

The infuriating this is it was entirely preventable had they taken her seriously on day 1, the Qld Health doesnt want to know, denying all responsibility. Has management in Australia become so cold and heartless thats someones life just doesnt matter.

If you feel hard done by, take a step back and think about what you HAVE, and have a think about this poor girl. Kinda puts things in perspective.

[Erin Brockovich]

Good post ITCZ. I would like to highlight a point you made again.
Experienced jet pilots... the only difference between you and the guy on the navajo is you got the chance to do the training and fly the line.
It seems a few out there forget on occasion where they came from (or more tragic, have no memories/experiences to forget).
BA50 said Another ignorant looser wannabe on a quest to lower conditions further!Well you have 2 choices. Either stick your heads back in the sand and keep blaming everyone else for what I believe is almost inevitable now, or actually do something about it.
The GA pilot pool doesn’t really care anymore about strengthening the foundation when the view from the summit is becoming sh#t.
The current QF mainline pilots are the only and last line of defence against lower pilot pay and conditions in Australia. Why not show everyone (including yourselves) that you DO deserve current (and in my opinion better) pay and conditions. All professional pilots do.
Everyone is looking after themselves because no one is sticking together, or more importantly setting the example.

[max autobrakes]

Where pray tell ,are all these GA pilots going to come from ,to replace these recalcitrant 2400 Qantas pilots ?
From sources in CASA the numbers of Aussies learning to fly has collapsed
,just look at the number of student pilot licences issued each year in Australia. Once all the O'seas students are taken out ,there is SFA Aussies bothering to do the do , to get a job that pays do do's. Very reminiscent of the '60's all this.

[Metro man]

It's not just GA pilots QANTAS can call on, what about all the Aussies flying overseas who want to come home ? Many of them qualified on the types QF operate. And foreign pilots who see Australia as a desirable place to live would be here in a flash given a work permit.

Add these to the remaining QF pilots who would sign a "take it or leave it contract" and you should have enough to be going on with.

I'm not saying you guys don't deserve your conditions, dragging them down won't benefit me in the least. Geoff does have supply on his side and there are plenty who would grab your jobs without a second thought. Plenty of CX S/Os moved to QF a few years back when there were vacancies.