View Full Version : Patria Pilot Training MD-80 type rating?
Considering doing an MD-80 type rating with Patria in Finland. Has anyone any experience of them? Quality, cost, job prospects on completion?
Crossunder
18th Apr 2006, 14:40
Well, with an MD80 rating, you're looking at a very small number of possible employers in Europe. Why not go for a B737NG og 'Bus rating? A lot more opportunities...
low n' slow
19th Apr 2006, 17:29
I agree with the previous post. Any MD80 operator hiring now will most likely sack you when the charter season dies down...
However, to answer your question: I haven't done an MD80 TR with them, however, I'm currently doing a 340 TR there and I have a good mate who recently completed his MD80 rating with them. General consensus is that you get what you pay for. Apparantly, my mate was not to stoked about their quality: no instructors, no manuals (AOM, performance etc.), no one to ask questions to etc. The list was longer than I feel comfortable stating on this forum...
I have, however, a better picture of Patria and I'm satisfied with what they've produced so far in regards to my S340 rating.
It could have to do with the fact that he was in a much bigger group (10 or so candidates) and that Patrias facilities couldn't cope with the size of the group.
If your just after getting the MD80 on your license, Patria is a cheap way to go. However, comparing the 7 sim sessions with the 14 or so you get when doing the TR with SAS, I feel you get more quality training with SAS. Patria goes with the bare minimum. Hope this has given you a little more info to base your decision on.
regards/ LnS
Northern_Driver
20th Apr 2006, 08:07
Hi C195,
I believe there is an operator JET-X or something currently flying the MD-80. Call them and give them proposal that you pay for your own rating if they offer you a job. They have finnish pilots there find out their names and call them, ask questions. Otherwise I would not pay for it-too risky. I am sure Patria knows some names..
Thanks for the replies, all very useful. It does seem very cheap and I've just heard that it's even cheaper (14,000€ + landings) if bought through Nordic Leisure in Sweden. Apparently they are recruiting pilots and offer the line training as well. Must do more research before deciding though. The Flight International website has listed quite a few MD-80 jobs recently.
low n' slow
20th Apr 2006, 20:03
Thanks for the replies, all very useful. It does seem very cheap and I've just heard that it's even cheaper (14,000€ + landings) if bought through Nordic Leisure in Sweden. Apparently they are recruiting pilots and offer the line training as well. Must do more research before deciding though. The Flight International website has listed quite a few MD-80 jobs recently.
This is true but you'll get sacked for the winter season. If you hang tight over the winter season they might rehire you as they will likely be in the same position next year. I wonder though if they haven't fulfilled their need for this year. Give them a call though, it might pay off...
A rumour aswell is that Viking called a couple of the first batch of applicants (10 or so were hauled off for type ratings in March I believe for Nordic Airways account) with very lucrative job offers. As I understood things, they were effectively trying to steal pilots that allready were well into the type from Leisure (now Airways). I dont know if they convinced anyone to swap sides, but perhaps they still need pilots?
At any rate, the MD80 is a hot type for charter operations and the summer season will most likely produce urgent (desperate) job offers. But this also implies short summer contracts. But if you can stick with those terms for a year or two, perhaps you can get a fixed employment deal for later on.
/ LnS
As mentioned above, Patria has got a reputation for cheap but poor quality type ratings. Their other courses may go the same way as two of their experienced instructors left for airline jobs earlier this year. Rumour has it they've been or are being replaced with new FI's who are either still under training (200hr guy's) or have just got their ratings and are still restricted. This will save the company money but not do much for quality. I have a friend who is on an Integrated course there.
Think carefully before paying for your own type rating. In finland at least, all the companies have a proper selection process and, if you pass, the company will pay for your type rating and then bond you for it.
I have been told that Patria is working with both Nordic Airways and Finncomm to provide type ratings. Nordic Airways (Swedish?) has some short term (6 month?) contracts in Finland for Blue 1 and is largely a summer season operator. They do not pay for type ratings nor bond pilots for training so you have to pay for everything yourself. Even line training is unpaid! Finncomm normally selects and then bonds it's pilots for training but they do have some contract pilots working on the Saabs who either already had or agreed to pay for their type rating. Not sure why someone would pay for a Saab type rating when, by passing aptitude tests, they could get it for free! Maybe someone here could tell you more about that?
Think carefully before paying for any type rating. If everyone starts doing it the companies will come to expect it and the cost of becomming a pilot will continue to rise.
bafanguy
22nd Apr 2006, 14:27
Rumour has it they've been or are being replaced with new FI's who are either still under training (200hr guy's) or have just got their ratings and are still restricted. .
Not sure I understand the part about 200 hour FI's in this MD80 training course. Do you mean they have 200 hours total flight time, or 200 hours of actual MD80 time, or 200 hours of MD80 sim instructor time ?
Strayed off topic... the 200 hour guys was referring to Patria's new instructors who, rumour has it, are being used to replace their very experienced instructors who have left for the airlines (saving money). I was just talking about the quality of the companies training. Strangely enough, they have very cheap type ratings but their other courses appear to be the most expensive around (just checked prices on the their website and was shocked)!
And to further clarify, the 200 hour FI's are being employed to teach their Integrated training courses and are not involved with the MD-80 or Saab type rating training. I think, but am not sure, that they use freelance instructors to teach the type ratings.
So, what kind of experience do you guy's paying for these type ratings have? More than 200 hours I hope!
low n' slow
23rd Apr 2006, 07:32
One reason for the TR's to be so cheap is that you only get 7 Sim sessions. Compare this to 14 or so given by SAS. Otherwise there's really nothing to pay for since you don't get any books, no manuals and no proper instruction.
Reason for not doing aptitude test are that those are only done (as far as I know) for hired pilots. To get a long term hire you need to speak finnish and many of us contractors do not. Therefore we pay but also get to bypass the tests. Works fine for me :}
/LnS
bafanguy
23rd Apr 2006, 14:34
One reason for the TR's to be so cheap is that you only get 7 Sim sessions. Compare this to 14 or so given by SAS. Otherwise there's really nothing to pay for since you don't get any books, no manuals and no proper instruction.
/LnS
14 sim sessions ?? You're being held against your will and tortured !!! I think we did 9 for an initial course.
Seriously though, how does one go through school on an airplane without a manual ? Doesn't the regulatory authority step in and have a say in the matter ?
As said, how can they run a type rating course without the proper manuals etc? How can a school be approved for such training? How did you learn?!
Just out of interest, do the Finnish pilots who fail the Finncomm aptitude tests get the option to pay for their own type ratings and then work for Finncomm? Or do they get the option to elect not to take them at all and pay for their own rating and work like you? If not, I could imagine such a system may cause low hour Finnish pilots to feel hard done by!
low n' slow
23rd Apr 2006, 17:19
As said, how can they run a type rating course without the proper manuals etc? How can a school be approved for such training? How did you learn?!
Just out of interest, do the Finnish pilots who fail the Finncomm aptitude tests get the option to pay for their own type ratings and then work for Finncomm? Or do they get the option to elect not to take them at all and pay for their own rating and work like you? If not, I could imagine such a system may cause low hour Finnish pilots to feel hard done by!
Everything is CBT based so when you do the technical part, you do it all from CBT. I haven't done my test yet so I'll have to wait and see. I believe we will get manuals later on for the classroom part of the training (performance, w and b etc...). Regarding permits, I know nothing. I just hope that I'll get the type transferred onto my license in the end... Is that perhaps aiming to high :}
Regarding failing aptitude testing, I haven't got the slightest Idea so I dont want to make a guess of how they'd handle it, but I feel very doubtful of them employing someone who's failed, be it for contract or for full employment.
/LnS
deice
25th Apr 2006, 08:44
Ok guys - you keep saying Patria is cheap, so how much do they want for the SAAB rating?
low n' slow
25th Apr 2006, 15:58
Ok guys - you keep saying Patria is cheap, so how much do they want for the SAAB rating?
Give them a call instead of going with loose rumours.
It's not so much that they're cheap than that they have available courses...
SAS FA are all booked up until August and there are a few jobs on offer for the Saab so it's a popular type. The only other school is Patria so you go with what's available.
/LnS
It seems that Patria doesn't sell the saab 340 tr to private individuals and only provides the service for Finncomm pilots. The MD-80 is available but maybe it's getting quite late in the season for that now?
Rumour has it that another full time and the last experienced FI has left Patria and also the Chief Ground Instructor is leaving. Maybe you low hour pilots should consider working as instructors for a few years rather than buying your way into airline jobs by self funding type ratings? Working as an FI would certainly improve your airmanship and general handling skills.