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View Full Version : Bloody Labour (new) and triple council tax.


zed3
17th Apr 2006, 12:40
Caught today on BBC newspaper review that via The Times , it has been mooted that second home owners will in the future pay TRIPLE council tax - under the name of " absenteeism tax " . Prescott's department again . In my case , I have worked in the Netherlands as an international civil servant for Eurocontrol for the last 36 years . We have a house here (NL) and a flat (inherited) in Scarborough , UK , which I/we visit every six to eight weeks or so for a week - a foot on The Island . I am approaching retirement and planned to enjoy myself between two properties - one in my , still, home country (at the moment) being a true Brit . Now our council charges are around Lstg.900 +/- a year (90%) fair enough BUT Lstg.2800 a year plus gas/electricity and water , will be too much and in my view , over the top . When are you lot going to get rid of new Labour who are ruining the UK ? Oh yes , forgot - politicians and people who need a second home for work will be exempt from this rule !!!!!!! What does the team think ?!!!

acbus1
17th Apr 2006, 12:59
Well, I voted for the opposition last General Election!

It'd be helpful if the electoral system was democratic!

As I've said elsewhere, we need to borrow some French guillotines and get knitting. :E

Not that the opposition would be any better, but it'd be satisfying to boot the current thieving mob out (not that they would care....cushy pension, plus their thievings from being in so-called Government).

Sell your place in the Netherlands......I think I'll emigrate and buy it!

G-CPTN
17th Apr 2006, 13:02
Well, I voted for the opposition last General Election!
Doesn't matter WHO you vote for, the Government always wins! :{

The Real Slim Shady
17th Apr 2006, 13:03
Ah but Brother Zed, you are not, by paying the said unreasonable tax on your second property actually being taxed on the benefit of the said property. You are performing, unbeknownst to you and Mrs Zed,an important social function.
Indeed, one might go so far as to say that the milk of human kindness is postively cascading form the fountain that is your bank account to provide succour and comfort for the thousands of less fortunate souls who venture across the wastelands of Europe from their plague and pestilence ravaged homelands in search of their slice of this sceptred isle.
In short, you are funding the the consciences of the bleedin' hearts, the massed bands of the 3rd PC Brigade and the keeping hundreds of civil servants in gainful employment.
Thanks to you, and the hard work, parsimony and prudence of your ancestors in leaving you a flat in Scarborough, you are being rewarded, not with an MBE for services to entertainment or football, but with your own, your very own, asylum seekers to house and feed.

We salute you.

And New Labour wonders why the middle classes are f*cked off.

ORAC
17th Apr 2006, 13:28
Well they have p*ssed off the middle classes for the last few years; by the look of the press reports in the last couple of weeks, they have p*ssed off the working classes; and since it looks like they have scr*wed up being able to hand out knighthoods and peerages, the have probably p*ssed off the upper classes who supported them as well.

Good thing they brought in their hole ridden postal voting system, at least their remaining supporters will be able to vote for them more than once....... :hmm:

lexxity
17th Apr 2006, 13:32
As I've said elsewhere, we need to borrow some French guillotines and get knitting.

I've got some wool and needles, where do you want me?

acbus1
17th Apr 2006, 13:58
lexxity

where do you want me?
Since I discovered you're a lady (albeit currently subject to benefit of the doubt ;) ) I'd be careful making offers like that! :E

Wedge
17th Apr 2006, 14:24
It'd be helpful if the electoral system was democratic!

It always amazes me when the Tories say this about NuLabour.

They seem to very conveniently forget that this country endured 11 years of destructive and socially divisive Thatcherism which was directly responsible for the lamentable state of our society today, yet she never even came close to 50% of the popular vote. (43.9% in 1979 was her best turnout, largely a post 'Winter of discontent' protest).

There is a strong argument for replacing the 'first-past-the-post' system, but curiously it's only ever the opposition who seem to advocate it.

acbus1
17th Apr 2006, 14:30
One man, one vote, proportional representation.

Anything else is not democratic.

And I don't care what the disadvantages are, or might be.

G-CPTN
17th Apr 2006, 14:42
One man, one vote, proportional representation.
Anything else is not democratic.
And I don't care what the disadvantages are, or might be.
Think the women might object . . .
And the other men.

acbus1
17th Apr 2006, 15:04
Think the women might object . . .

Drat......spotted my cunning plan. :*

zed3
17th Apr 2006, 15:14
Wedge..... be careful about wanting other than a ' first past the post ' system . Here in the Netherlands , as in most of Europe I believe , the PR system always leaves the same bunch of bandits in power by coalition ie. " I'll support you with this if you support me with that " system . Nothing is perfect but I believe first past the post is best - at least you can kick them out ! If only I had a vote for my money in the UK - I can't even vote over here either !!!!!

patdavies
17th Apr 2006, 16:25
Many years ago, I read a book (I think it was In the Wet by Nevil Shute) in which he expounded a system whereby an individual could have up to 7 votes.

The first was awarded simply for existing ( a bit like now). The others were 'earned' by, for example, military service, having a degree, earning above a certain threshold, homeowner etc. The seventh vote was in the gift of the Sovereign.

I have always thought this a much better system than one man, one vote; those who have put into society get a greater say in how it is governed.

Probably wouln't work in practice:*

Eddy
17th Apr 2006, 16:46
it has been mooted that second home owners will in the future pay TRIPLE council tax - under the name of " absenteeism tax " .

Pay a student a nominal monthly fee (say, 100.00) to put their name down as a resident of your second property. Not only will you not pay Triple tax, you won't pay anything.

zed3
17th Apr 2006, 17:02
Eddy , aaah , now someone's throwing the dice . Interesting , not that I agree with that sort of thing but , interesting , fight fire with fire eh !

Eddy
17th Apr 2006, 17:07
Eddy , aaah , now someone's throwing the dice . Interesting , not that I agree with that sort of thing but , interesting , fight fire with fire eh !

Excuse my language but f*ck this government and their ridiculous Council Tax hikes. Many of us in this industry are here for perhaps only half of the normal week, spending a lot of our time overseas. I, however, pay more council tax in my new flat (I live alone and spend an average of three days a week at home) than the family of four who live over the fence.

We're already taxed to the hilt to fund the lifestyles lead by those unprepared to get off their "incapacitated" backsides and do an honest days' work, so if we get the chance/opportunity to take something back or perhaps avoid paying something, we should bliddy well take it!

acbus1
17th Apr 2006, 17:08
Seems like a great idea, patdavis, until......

.....until you ask who decides what qualifications etc earn what points.

No longer democracy, y'see.



PS - The "Sovereign" bit is so not democracy it gets me dander up!

Off with their heads!

;)

The Desert Ferret
17th Apr 2006, 17:11
We've gone full circle - all the observations in this thread (and myriad others) are identical to contemporary observations made of the last regime.

Being one of the richest country on earth isn't enough for some.

To zillions of folk on earth the concept of carping about tax on a second home would be impossible to imagine.

Never stop challenging the incumbent regime, whoever it is - but for Heaven's sake get some perspective - you've got TWO HOMES!!!

acbus1
17th Apr 2006, 17:19
It's all about fairness.

Why should Council Tax be related to whether a property is a second home?

Council Tax pays (or so the con story goes) for services to the property and it's to it's occupiers.

How does a property occupied for a fraction of the year, by owners who already pay Council Tax on another property, justify increased Tax? It should be less!

By the same token, how do they justify higher Council Tax linked to property value?

It's all an excuse to steal yet more cash from those who've got it (by virtue of earning it).

:mad:

G-CPTN
17th Apr 2006, 18:13
We have a cottage (previously occupied by ageing great uncle who moved into sheltered accommodation ten years ago when he was 94) which stands unoccupied because it's uninhabitable by today's standards (and we can't afford to modernise it). We nevertheless have to pay Council Tax on said property, despite receiving NO services in return.

It's all about fairness.
By the same token, how do they justify higher Council Tax linked to property value?
THAT's where the Poll Tax was 'equable', but the great-unwashed rebelled against that and it was abandoned in favour of the 'old' rateable system. Local Income Tax is the fairest IMHO.

Eddy
17th Apr 2006, 18:25
We have a cottage (previously occupied by ageing great uncle who moved into sheltered accommodation ten years ago when he was 94) which stands unoccupied because it's uninhabitable by today's standards (and we can't afford to modernise it). We nevertheless have to pay Council Tax on said property, despite receiving NO services in return.

You know you can get atleast six month tax-free on the property if it's unoccupied?!? You can then, IIRC, appeal for an extension to the tax-free period. Certainly though, six months without council tax is a deffo.

Say it's unoccupied, un furnished and being renovated.

G-CPTN
17th Apr 2006, 18:31
Yes, but TEN years?

zed3
17th Apr 2006, 18:34
The Desert Feret..... Yes I am lucky enough to have two homes having lived abroad for 36 years and inherited 9 years ago but why should I pay 3x the tax after all the taxes I pay ? I am a Brit , have inherited my grandparents' house converted into flats by my father , with all the taxes then involved . By the way he was a Vicar so had to move out of the Vicarage on retirement and admittedly was lucky enough to be able to convert the aforementoned house into three flats and keep one for himself . So why shouldn't I be able to keep the thing paying the FULL (actually 90% which is fair to me ) tax , as per a normal citizen ? Why 3 (THREE) times the tax ? I find that aspect unfair , especially as I only use a lower percentage of the advantages over a year . There should be a middle way ..... but NOT obviously with New Labour . Prescottism rules ...OK.

The Desert Ferret
17th Apr 2006, 18:46
Zed3,

I'm at risk of drifting off topic but my point was merely (whilst recognising your true grievance) in the great scheme of things - you're a chap in good order and relative to the other 5+ billion punters out there things aren't too bad apart from paying too much tax on your second home.

I'm continually amazed at how affluent people (1) don't realise they're affluent and (2) devote an awful lot of time whinging about tax whilst millions of people elsewhere struggle to stay alive.

I've been longtime in the 40% band and I do get heavily taxed but for f***s sake - I do appreciate how lucky I am to be born into a rich western state and wouldn't dream of whinging and berating my homeland just because I get taxed a bit.

Isn't tax higher in the Netherlands anyway?

df

zed3
17th Apr 2006, 19:09
The Des Fer . Agreed BUT isn't the whole point of being a Brit is/was built upon fairness ? What is fair about paying your taxes and then again 3x as much for living less in a property as those living full time ? To me it is not going to solve any problems , just rake in more tax .

Metro man
18th Apr 2006, 09:25
Desert Feret, if you are happy in the 40% tax bracket you must be mad !
Just got a job in Singapore on approx GBP 45 000/year. My TOTAL income tax due on that amount +/- GBP 3600. Highest tax bracket here is 22% on incomes over GBP 114 000.

Public services work well here, place is clean and safe, defended by a modern and well equipped military. Virtually full employment with a forced saving scheme for a comfortable retirement. No natural resources, all done off their own backs.

Prehaps responsible financial management has something to do with it. Money isn't squandered on those who refuse to work, or given to third world dictators in the form of "aid".

Overiding theme - if you want something get off your backside and work for it !:ok:

acbus1
18th Apr 2006, 09:30
unoccupied because it's uninhabitable by today's standards (and we can't afford to modernise it).
None of my business, really, but it'll still sell (albeit at a lower price than a habitable property).

Gotta be better than giving a load of theiving gits a wad of cash every year.

Chippie Chappie
18th Apr 2006, 10:49
Well said Metro Man.

The thing is that tax at the high bracket in the UK isn't 40%, it probably closer to 70%. The 40% figure only takes into account the PAYE tax that comes out of your pay-cheque. There are many other taxes (including a 5% premium on car insurance - which is compulsory if you own a car :yuk: ) of which Council Tax is just one.

The government acknowlege that this is mainly to be used as a DISINCENTIVE to own a second home. That pretty much is the logic in the UK. Rather than create an interest in work by allowing people to keep the rewards for doing so, they discourage it by saying "If you are too successful you will be penalised". And the they wonder why things are going down the tube.

Rant over....

GreenWings
18th Apr 2006, 11:44
The government acknowlege that this is mainly to be used as a DISINCENTIVE to own a second home. That pretty much is the logic in the UK.
Agreed. And yet all the while, those rascaly politicians are given massive allowances on their additional properties (average 17000 pa). Double standards methinks.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,17129-2124207,00.html
And this from January 06 in The Times:
"JOHN PRESCOTT, the deputy prime minister, is under pressure to reveal whether he has reclaimed the cost of the council tax on his family home in Hull.
Last week Prescott was forced to apologise after The Sunday Times revealed that he was not required to pay council tax on any of his three properties out of his own pocket. "
cheers,
GW

Windy Militant
18th Apr 2006, 13:58
I have to admit that with certain reservations I'm for this Tax. If you can afford a second home well that's just dandy. I've no beef with people who buy a place a few years before they retire so they can acclimatise, but long term seasonal occupancy really does bugger things up for the locals. It raises house prices and rents beyond the reach of young people of that area who are generally on a lower income level to begin with. Secondly it doesn't put that much back into the local economy as the visitors generally bring supplies with them rather than buying locally. Thirdly as the properties are generally vacant over the winter months it means services like the post office, bus routes, schools etc fall into dissuse which causes hardship for those who live there all year round.
I presume that the tax assumes that a lot of second properties are short let when not being used by the owners. At least there seem to be a lot of self catering places advertised in the national small ads local to where I grew up.

The Desert Ferret
18th Apr 2006, 15:34
Metro man,

Good point. Its a valid observation with regards Singapore - if you're happy there then good for you feller.

Though, do you not think Singapore is an exception to the rule with its unique geography and history? Do you think the Singapore economic model could be rolled out across the UK without adverse effects?

I would suggest that what you get is what our cousins have over the pond in the States - sure - great vehicle for maximising one's personal wealth but it comes at a collective cost - that is a large slug of the population is in the mire.

Any thoughts?

df

airship
18th Apr 2006, 16:16
Overiding theme - if you want something get off your backside and work for it ! :ok: Strangely enough, that reminds me of someone else - me dad. And funnily enough, he thought he'd found his nirvana just a few miles up the coast from Singapore. After running tea and rubber plantations all over SE Asia, he bought a few plots of land about the place, a hotel in Port Dickson. Decided to retire in 1970 at the ripe old age of 50. :ok:

Roll on to 1979. He's literally penniless. The Chinese contractor who he left in charge of the hotel was cooking the books. Had to sell all those undeveloped beachfront plots rapidly just to eat (worth millions today BTW). Now in UK, subsisting on social services (never really contributed any UK N.I., did have a private pension with a big tea company but they've changed hands so many times in the last 30 years you wouldn't believe...) :{

So, Metro man, you've got it all sussed have yers...?! :rolleyes:

Metro man
19th Apr 2006, 01:27
There is a welfare system here in Singapore, for those who REALLY need it. If you are poor and sick, you still get health care (unlike the USA) under the Medifund scheme.

During your working life you must contribute to the Central Provident Fund for your retirement, rather than expect to live off the state.

I have no objection to paying taxes here as Singapore is a model of good government and responsible financial management. Four and a half million people have accumulated foreign exchange reserves of US$123 billion. Even during the Asian financial crisis the economy still grew by a small amount.

In the west punishing tax levels are imposed, acting as a complete disincentive to work, so money can be squandered on left wing causes and a massive bureaucracy. How much gets wasted on council estates, where although no one in the household even thinks of working there is Sky TV accompanied by the latest widescreen telly. Hot hatchback in the drive way and money for booze and drugs.

Singapore does have geographical advantages, but little else. No natural resources, can't produce enough food, not enough water(piped in from Malaysia). Three different races, religions and languages crammend into the second most densly populated country on earth. And it works ! Forty years on since independence the standard of living is higher than Britains.

The mentality here is work to support yourself and your family, rather than sit back and wait for your GIRO. Something is wrong when the unemployed are kept at a higher standard of living than those working to support them.

I am very happy here and intend to stay until I can afford a comfortable self funded retirement. If you are happy in the UKs 40% tax bracket funding a nice retirement for the politicians and civil servants, and having your money dissappear into an ever widening black hole good for you.

Who in Britain/USA/Australia etc is happy with government spending and convinced their taxes are well used ?

PS Have you seen what the Chancellor has done to pensions over the last few years ?http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=200112&highlight=gordon+brown

BenThere
19th Apr 2006, 01:42
Based on what I've seen for myself in Singapore, and knowledge of the country I've gained over the years, I think there's a lot to learn from their model.

Lee Kuan Yew was one of the world's great leaders of the last fifty years. His judgment and perception had so much to do with Singapore's success.