Aero's Hard-Nosed Sim Instructors

[Mama Mangrove]

Watch out if you're offered a job flying fixed wing with Aero in Nigeria - seems like some of their expat trainers are now using sim rides to prove what big hot-shots they are. The Aero philosophy now seems to be to break people in the sim, not use it as a useful training aid. What goes around comes around :yuk:

[ACN_Pilot]

Really?? thats interesting? Care to give any further details, by PM or watever.

ACN_Pilot

[skygod]

Guys,
whenever such thing happen, we all start refering to sex, religion, race, age, as possible reasons for failure. Its simple, know ur stuff, stay on top of the game. " you snooze u looze fellas" Its not "LUCK" its "SKILL"!!!!!!!

happy landings!!!!!

[Mama Mangrove]

Yeah right, it's just skill. I guarantee that if any half-way competent sim instructor had it in his head to fail someone, even Chuck Yeager could be failed on a sim ride. It just needs someone whose ego and sexual organs are bigger than his brains to reproduce with anyone on a sim ride. I didn't refer to race. sex or religion as the reasons for a failure as this was clearly not the case, but there are some guys in Aero with some kind of need to prove how big their cojones are, and in the 21st century, and with a company now run by CHC it's not supposed to be like that. :yuk:

[Alpha Bravo Bravo]

Mama Mangrove, ACN_Pilot was right to have asked you for more details which we also want to know.This is a rumour forum, spread the word;)
You made an insinuation that requires substantiation:cool:

[surely not]

Guess you must have hurt feelings there Mama? Has your pride been dented? Maybe that was your problem and instead of looking to blame others a long hard look at yourself might help.

[chuks]

I think M.M. has a valid point to make with his comments, actually.

As the cowboys used to say, 'There ain't a horse that can't be rode nor a rider that can't be throwed.' Correcting that for modern times and proper grammar, well, only a fool would claim that he would never bust a check, but if someone wants to be a hard-arse then a check can be close to impossible to pass, whatever one's skill level. It's just a question of what the Check Airman thinks Management want him to achieve, and that seems to be what is in question here.

[18left]

i do agree with mm in this regard,lots of rumours in this regard over the years in aero,some pass b/c they are......... some fail b/c they are not......
i actually thot things were changing form the stories coming out, hasnt it?

[SASless]

Ever see Staff Announcements that say...." Must be less than 40 yrs old and Bristow Trained"?

[surely not]

Maybe it is because they have such stringent checks that they have been rated so highly for safety in the past and present?

Forgive a non flyer commenting on something he has never had to endure, but pilot friends I have known over the years have all at various times had a gripe about one or more of their sim checks. When the dust has settled and they have passed a retake, invariably they have grudgingly allowed that their first check wasn't that good.

Aero have a first class reputation to preserve and that will only be achieved by not easing up with their sim checks to make people feel better.

[ACN_Pilot]

Well I think there are two things being talked about here, high standards and politics in the company. I get the impression that MM is hinting at standards being used as a method of enforcing "political" decisions from on high. Make no mistakes about it, Aero has some of the most stringent standards I've ever seen, both in Europe aswell as here. As for the politics of who might be liked and not liked, its not really my place to be discussing such things especially on a public forum. There's always politics everywhere!! And MM, your first post makes it absolutely clear who you are talking about. try to be a little vague next time.

ACN_Pilot

[Flying Touareg]

Politics? Ha!
Visit the presidential air fleet where u have to kiss an :mad: to fly if are not khaki:sad:

[Mama Mangrove]

surely not,
How little you know. I am an ancient retired person who has no pride or feelings to be hurt any more. It is obvious from your comments that you are indeed not an aviator. Before you comment on Aero's safety checks and stringent policies, maybe you need to be reminded of Jos,Shell, DHC6, Israel. All of the forgoing probably means nothing to you, but there are those out there who will understand. The people who have perpetrated this injustice also need to be reminded of things in the past, not just what is happening now. Pandora had a box. It's still out there. Maybe it's time to close the lid.
ABB - if you want to know more - ask friends in Aero. I have nothing further to add for now. :yuk:
ACN_Pilot. You're absolutely right. Sorry, I'll try to be more oblique in future postings - but you obviously also know about politics being efffected in the name of standards in Aero. I've seen it wrote large in a few places lately - what goes around comes around.

[surely not]

So what axe are you grinding mama? You are safely retired but you make an inflammatory thread such as this. Why? One of your relatives been denied a good job by any chance? If you are ancient and retired there has to be a reason why you have taken against Aero in this way, perhaps you could be honest with what your complaints really are.

[Frogman1484]

MM....remember fail to prepare and then prepare to fail.
It is always someone else that make s you fail. I see this all the time at my airline. I hear someone say I failed because I' a women, cadet, too young or because he does not like australians or what even. Most of the time I just have to spend one sector with him/her to see that they failed bacause they think they are better than what they are or that they have not yet made the standard.:ok:

[chuks]

Are you guys seriously suggesting that all sim checks are done 'straight up'? Anything involving human judgement, including sim checks, is subject to interpretation and that can be just as fair, perceptive and intelligent as the person doing the evaluation. You often can have a check airman feeling that he's just a really tough guy, able to make strong men weep and women swoon when really he's just working off a little personal problem with someone or perhaps doing what he thinks is his master's bidding.

The less intelligent someone is then the more likely they are to fall into delusional behaviour. The trap can be that a well-learned routine, practiced time and again by a sim trainer, can be executed perfectly to his standards, yet judged to be a 'fail' when executed differently (not unsafely). Knocking out a perfect routine can often be taken as a sign of intelligence, when it can be anything but. Conversely, failure can be taken as a sign of stupidity.

When you get someone who's a bit insecure, deep down, about their own ability, well, that person can develop into a real monster when given free run in a training and evaluation role. I think we have all encountered one or two of this type in our careers, even on sim checks we have passed.

I think training and evaluation can be a very tough job, one I would not fancy doing. If it's not properly supported and supervised then anomalies can crop up. Too often stuff only comes out in accident reports about how bad CRM can come from this sort of thing.

The point being raised here, to my mind, is 'What are the underlying issues?' The whole point of recurrent training is to achieve the highest possible levels of safety. It is not to crush and humiliate people or even to set someone else up as an avatar. It is just another tool. Used properly it's very useful and misused it can do a lot of damage. Drop a hammer on your toe to see what I mean.

[Mama Mangrove]

surely not,
Yet again you're completely missing the point. Chuks is the one who's got it. I have no relatives in need of employment. What has my being retired got to do with bringing injustice to light? I have no gripe with Aero. They have always had good standards and, as far as I know, continue to do so. For many years now they have had a good safety record and because they operate contractually for many oil companies in Nigeria, they are regularly audited by proper teams of professional auditors. I don't deny that. I have just heard of something on the fixed wing side of the company, makes me believe that an injustice may have been perpetrated. Nothing to do with me personally, but then the Gulf war wasn't either - it doesn't stop me having an opinion on whether it was a just cause and, if I wish, expressing my views on it. However, in a case like this, it's not my place to name any names, just to maybe try and make some people sit back and take a good look at themselves and ask if what they're doing is the right thing.
I had a lot of experience with simulators and no, I never failed a check ride in one. I know that when used as a tool for educating pilots they have immmense benefit and can instil great confidence in crews. When used as a tool for destroying pilots, they just end up inspiring terror in one and all and their use then becomes counter-productive. A simulator is merely an unthinking, unforgiving machine and is only as good as the instructor controlling it. It's like a scalpel - in the hands of a surgeon it's capable of repairing and rebuilding; but in the hands of a football hooligan it;s capable of destroying and scarring.
I have no more to say on the subject. It's been aired, nothing will happen, but I just didn't want it to disappear without a trace.

[Flying Touareg]

Politics prevails everywhere.Infact, politics has been defined as a way of life.People, going thru other threads regarding airlines like BA, emirates, etc, you will find that all these kind of politics happen.

Politics in organisations however do not warrant that Quality,procedures,standards or safety are compromised.It should not happen that way. Sadly in our dear naija it is not the case in many places. AERO is synonymous with not compromsing safety and standards and i believe that is the very reason why they are now having the largest chunk of the market since the time an alarm blew that airlines were cutting corners. Initially, nobody cared.The cheapest airfare mattered. But now, all the PAX want is get home safe. Eyes have now opened.

I doubt if aero can compromise on its standards.Politics,yes,it must exist not only in aero,but in our homes too. It is the way of life.

[18left]

maybe (m@aybe) it is because they have such stringent checks that they have been rated so highly for safety in the past and present? as posted by surely not


That may be true of aero no doubt in any ones mind about that,but MM did raise some imporatant pointss,the important thing to note is that we are all human and so are instructors so its not a far fetched accusation.
Its up to any company to make sure that there are checks and balances to forestall any personality issues with instructors e.g use of another companys check airman when such accusations are raised,so without the details am afraid both MM AND SN are of course.
Futhermore it is well documented that expats hardly failed checks(mostly locals) in aeros earlier years,but that all changed with time.

[ZAZOO]

:( INTERESTING THIS!!!:(

[Mama Mangrove]

Dinosaurs 1 - Pilots 0. Game over :mad:

[Flying Touareg]

ACN_Pilot, is it true that aero intends to start flying into DNKN? Or is there any Naija ppruner that heard the news? If true, do they want to give virgin a competition for the new route? Heard silverbird on the radio the other day, wonder how they can survive the KN route with virgins entry now, and chanchangi and possibly aero.
But i must salute bluetail for sustaining that route despite the low pax.