Running deisel vehical on Jet A1

[Heavy Lift R22]

I was wondering if running a deisel engine on jet A1 is bad for it.

[SASless]

Using Other Fuels in a Ram Diesel

For the "inline" P7100 pump ('94 to 98.5 12 Valve engines). P7100 pumps are internally lubricated by engine oil.
These fuels are "OK": #1 & #2 Diesel, 1K & 2K Kerosene, Jet-A, Jet A-1, JP-5, and JP-8.

NOT OK under any circumstances: Jet-B, JP-4, and Cite


The "rotary" VE pump (pre '94) and electronic VP-44 (98.5+ 24 valve) VE and VP-44 pumps are fuel lubricated.
#1-D Diesel or #2 Fuel Oil (diesel) only

Alternate fuels listed for the P7100 pump may be used in the VE pump if if 5% lube oil is added.


The P7100 inline pump is internally lubricated by engine oil, while the VE and VP-44 pumps are fuel lubricated. The "lighter" fuels, such as Kerosene, Jet-A, and JP-5/8, don't lubricate enough.

Note: there have been some reports of sticking plungers in some early P7100 pumps. There are many commercial fuel additives which contain a pump lube - to avoid plunger trouble, consider using an additive when the engine is running on an alternate fuel.

Fuel Tidbits from the Bradley Bits - a news bulletin for Bradley Fighting Vehicles

JET A-1 fuel is essentially identical to JP-8 except it does not have three additives required in JP-8: a fuel system icing inhibitor, a corrosion inhibitor, and a static dissipater additive. Hot JP-8 fuel reduces the life of fuel pumps on some diesel engines, so avoid using JP-8 or Jet A-1 extensively in hot heather, and keep the fuel tank as full as possible to reduce fuel temperature.
Diesel fuel #2 and water separate completely; JP-8 fuel and water do not. JP-8 becomes cloudy when contaminated with water; and the cloudier the fuel, the more severe the contamination. The Ram fuel/water separator will not be able to remove suspended water from JP-8 or Jet A-1.



Some Questions answered by Josh Berman of Cummins:

> Dodge says to run #2 diesel under most conditions. In "arctic" conditions (<10 °F), others
> recommend 50% #2, and 50% K1 OR #1 diesel. Is the 1st statement true? I know the second
> is because its in the owners & service manuals.

Blending is better than running on fully on #1 or K1, because it will keep your power output closer to that of running on #2 Diesel.

> What if any problems will be caused by extended operation on other than #2
> diesel? I'm more concerned about short duration needs... ie out in a rural
> area and unable to find diesel, but can find a K1 pump.

If you have a '94 to '98.5 12 Valve truck, then you should have no problems running a tank of K1 (2K Kerosene, Jet-A, Jet A-1, JP-5, or JP-8) through your truck. You might find that it performs differently (ie: #1 Diesel gives lower power than #2 Diesel), but it should not cause any damage to your engine. (Note: Jet-B, JP-4, and Gasoline are NOT to be used in any models. Dave)

However, if you have a 1989 to 1993 Ram or a 1998 and up 24 valve engine, then we DO NOT recommend using any fuel other than #1 or #2 Diesel. In an emergency, you can use 1K or 2K Kerosene, Jet-A, Jet A-1, JP-5, or JP-8 ONLY IF YOU BLEND 5% NEW LUBE OIL with the fuels (ie: 20 gallon fill-up, add 1 gallon new lube oil). Adding the lube oil is VERY IMPORTANT, as running on the lighter fuels without additional lubrication will cause excessive wear in your fuel pump, which is not a warrantable repair.
CAUTION: Running fuel other than #1 or #2 diesel w/5% lube oil should only be done if there is ABSOLUTELY NO OTHER CHOICE. Fuel pump damage due to inadequate fuel lubrication IS NOT COVERED BY WARRANTY, we don't recommend "lighter fuels + 5% lube oil" unless you're in a really desperate situation.

[Screwed™]

...errr, so is that yes or no? :bored:

[Angus]

.... and does chucking in a liter of normal piston engine oil with every fill up help?

[Blackhawk9]

Sassless is saying yes..... but with precautions, some of the new hightech diesels in light trucks etc only use jet fuel in an emergency and ensure diesel oil is added for lubrication of the fuel pump (jet fuel is a dry fuel). In your old Landcruiser ,F100 diesel, power cart etc, get a clean 44 gal drum add 5 to 10 litres of diesel oil (the same stuff you put in the engine!!) and fill with your aquired jet fuel and use in the cruiser to your hearts content, jet fuel smokes a bit more than diesel and is down a bit on power but if your getting it for nothing/cheap who cares!

[Geoffersincornwall]

I watched a TV progrramme a while back where our Customs & Excise chaps were hunting down those illegally supplying 'red' diesel (which is sold tax free to farmers for use in farm machinery and to fisherman for use in their fishing boats) to ordinary motorists. The scammers were also buying in central heating oil at about 18 pence a litre (about 32 US cents), adding 5 gallon drums of regular lube oil and selling at twice the price to local taxi drivers etc. The price of diesel in the UK at the time was about about 75 pence a litre ($1.25 per litre). Heating oil I believe is very similar to Jat A1.

If you do the sums you will see that heating oil and Jet A1 are both sold free of 'Road Fuel Duty' which today is running at about 50 pence a litre here in UK (about 90 cents). Big market for savings but how the engine mapping will cope on a modern turbo-diesel with a common rail feed I don't know - not well I expect)

G

:hmm:

[catseye]

Heavy lift


- what type of engine. An old lister/petter in a gen set, nissan or mazda indirect injection, massey ferguson ???????


The biodiesel people ( at least some) believe 10 % biodiesel into the jet A will provide adequate lubrication for the pump and injectors at least equivalent to diesel lubricity. Ends up smelling like a jet fuelled fish and chips shop.

Also believe ATF ( automatic transmission fluid ) can also be substituted for the biodiesel lubrication but don't know ratio. Two stroke oil is also a suitable lubricant.


The Eye.

[Non-PC Plod]

So, not road duty-paid makes it illegal, same as red diesel if you stick it in your car. You need to find a secret forum if you want to take this one much further!

[Hairyplane]

HLR22 - I reckon you'r going to get a knock on the door.

It will be a very nice man with a portcullis alongside his ID card photo....

It aint worth it.

HP

[chuks]

A Scandihooligan I know has run a series of Mercedes on the Jet A they have left over after doing the water and sediment checks every morning. He said the Mercs have a separate oil system to lubricate the injection pump so that they don't seem to mind the diet of Jet A at all.

A VW diesel needs about one quart of straigh mineral oil per one barrel (44 Imperial or 55 US gallons or 209 litres)of Jet A, on the other hand.

Some countries have changed their tax system, taxing diesels at a higher rate, so that they don't bother chasing tax-dodgers using alternate fuels. Well, that's what I was told, anyway.

Here in Germany the VW diesel can go all leaky on a diet of bio-diesel, even, since the seals in the high-pressure section are very senstive to some chemical found therein. The modern common-rail systems run something like 3,000 PSI, so that caution is advised when choosing fuel. Read the fine print in the owner's manual, I guess. One of my friends had to buy a new pump due to this.

[SASless]

One of my friends had to buy a new pump due to this.

How much did it cost you Chuks?:{

[ShyTorque]

Previously discussed on PPRuNe a number of times. There are believers and non-believers. I personally think that Jet A-1 powered diesel engines are the way forward for light aircraft. These people certainly think so, too:

http://www.diamond-air.at/en/press/pressarchive/40820.htm

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

Use turbine fuel in your car - go for it ! The government has been screwing the GA industry for years - get your own back on them ! Don't feel guilty about it either.

[currawong]

Errr, I know this bloke that has run his truck on it for several tens of thousands of km with, so far, no apparant side effects. So he reckons, anyway....

[Droopy]

My brother in law is a fuel injection mechanic and we had this discussion a while back. He said basically what Blackhawk said - dilute diesel with jet fuel for the older low pressure injection systems [couldn't come up with a percentage though] but under no circumstances put it into modern high pressure systems [eg the French HDi engines] or your pump will soon be ubergerfooknackered. You do of course go into the tax implications with your eyes wide open.

[Agwaggon]

I ran my old HJ47 Cruiser on it, off and on for years.
NO probs!!

[bellsux]

Australian Antarctic Division has been running on it for years, everything from Cat Bulldozers to Toyota Utes. They do add some stuff to the bulk lot but always took our dregs and put it straight into the machines.

[crop duster]

We've been running our John Deere 3010 on Jet A for years, mowing and whatever around the airport with no known problems. We also fill up every other time in our 95 Ford F450 and haven't had any problems with it either. Just my $.02.

barryb

[skippo]

Mix some 2 stroke oil with the fuel:ok: . It lubes well and combusts cleaner. Know a guy who has driven a golf mk1 200k on jet fuel, never had a problem.
skipp:D

[Graviman]

Good thread! How much 2-stroke oil per litre of diesel, Skippo? Must admit if Cummins don't recommend 5% oil mix, i would run with 10%.

I've happily run a diesel car on cheap engine oil before (during the last uk fuel crisis), but you have to make sure it is clean. The temptation is always to put the sump oil in the tank, but those carbon particulates would detroy the pump in about 10'000 miles.

SaSless, i would be mildly concerned about the injectors with Jet A1, even if the fuel pump was eng lubed. Without additional oil they would not last as long between overhauls - last time i looked it was only ~£100 for a set of four Lucas injectors.

I would also be extremely wary of water contamination, this will cause extreme pump wear whether or not you add oil.

Mart

[crispy69]

On a slightly different note what about running AVGAS 100/130 in your car?

I have been putting in my car for a while but mixing 50/50 or near that.
I was told it is ok but that you should mix with MOGAS.
I haven't had any problems but curious for opinions on why you should mix it???

Crispy

[ShyTorque]

:} A really great way to kill your catalytic converter, if you haven't already done so!!

AVGAS LL might say "Low Lead" on the tin - but it contains a lot more lead (TEL) than old leaded car fuel ever did!

If your car needs a very high octane fuel to counter "pinking" (pinging if you are west of the Atlantic) and has no catalytic converter, it is useable, as some amateur racers do.

[tangovictor]

I have a friend, who brought a diesel engined van, which had been run on "chip fat" used chip fat at that, it stunk, not only inside, but driving behind it also.
I do know, that, the ministry regulary check LGV vehicles at weigh bridges, and dip everyone,
Should you be found to be running on illegal diesel, your vehicle gets impounded, they work out how long you have owned it, calculate the mileage, from previous keeper, then assume you have always been cheating the system, so you owe them all that calculated back tax,
Usually more than the vehicles worth, unless its a Tractor Unit.
Not worth it, in my humble opinion
Oh the chip fat van took a new set of injectors, and a right thrashing to rid itself of it

[Verbatim03]

When I used to be a fueler, we usually had sumped Jet-A in the Diesel truck and sumped 100LL in the others. They were all fords and I never heard of or experienced a problem. Im not sure why you would be more concerned over water in Jet-A than regular diesel, I've seen it in both and imagine that either way would be bad. I usually poured the Jet-A into a 5 gallon bucket first and looked to check for anything and then poured it in through a funnel.

[skippo]

5-8 percent of 2 stroke is plenty.By the cheapest stuff you can get. It will still do the job. I would stay away from sump oil, gear oil regular motor oil and sawchain oil:} . It is not made to burn together with fuel, or burn at all. This can cause more friction, than lubrication of the combustion cycle. 2 stroke oil will allso lube the injectors with minimum polutants.
When it comes to water contamination its not a bigger problem with Ja1 than normal diesel. Same outcome will exist with water in the system, filter clogs with water and engine stops.
Fuel tanks on diesel cars most often have a "sump" where water can accumulate and not go to the engine.
Remember you can mix it with some normal diesel to.
In cold weather areas the sell what they call "winter diesel". This is because diesel freezes bellow -15 celsius. "Winter diesel" is normal diesel mixed with kerosene to lower the fresing temp. Kerosene=jet a1:ok:

If you want to use jet a1 on a new complex turbo/HDI diesel engine id go 50\50 with diesel just to be safe. I do however, know i guy how runs a fairly new Mercedes with HDI engine on Jet A1+ 2stroke with no problem.:D

[Impress to inflate]

One of our company engineers runs his old Pugot on Jet A1, He puts £5 of normal pump diesel in his tank then tops it up with jet A1, he says it runs just fine but in town it does run hot. He had to do a rad flush first. He also carries a half used bottle of injector cleaner in the glove box in case the boys in blue get sus about the odd smell from the back end. Good luck to him !

[Whirlygig]

the odd smell from the back end
So, this injector cleaner stuff? Will it work on the other 'arf? :}

Cheers

Whirls