EOS/MAX JET

[trainer too 2]

Hi

I never thought the concept of these airlines would get of the ground but they have. Are they filling them or are they just burning shareholders money?

[Localiser Green]

Official CAA Statistics show the following PAX numbers on the STN-JFK route (arrivals and departures at STN):

Nov 2005: 2,201
Dec 2005: 2,563
Jan 2006: 2,726
Feb 2006: 2,681 *

* Provisional

With a daily flight by each carrier there is capacity for 300 inbound and outbound passengers per day (2 x 102 + 2 x 48), which equates to about 36,000 available seats over the period shown above, therefore average load is about 28% across the two carriers. :{

Unfortunately it is not possible to split the EOS/MAX traffic, which would prove more interesting.

The MAXjet CEO was recently quoted in a magazine article boasting initial load factors of 50%, but if the above figures and calcuation are right even if all the passengers flew on MAXjet they still wouldn't be anywhere near 50% loads.

[PARKINGBRAKEON]

Does anyone know anything about these 2 new airlines and how they are doing? How are they fairing up in one of the most competitive routes in the world?

They seem to be getting less than profitable load factors, anyone tell me what they would have to do to improve this because i cant see how they can make it in such a competitive market.

PBO

[Globaliser]

With a daily flight by each carrier there is capacity for 300 inbound and outbound passengers per day (2 x 102 + 2 x 48), which equates to about 36,000 available seats over the period shown above, therefore average load is about 28% across the two carriers. :{
...
The MAXjet CEO was recently quoted in a magazine article boasting initial load factors of 50%, but if the above figures and calcuation are right even if all the passengers flew on MAXjet they still wouldn't be anywhere near 50% loads.I agree with the thrust of what you say, but should point out that Maxjet operates x6, so that takes out 204 seats a day from the capacity. Also, IIRC there were some operating breaks over Christmas that I can't estimate onto the back of my personal envelope.

But there were 120 days in those four months, so capacity was about (120 x 2 x 48) + (103 x 2 x 102) = 32,500 so overall average LF would have been about 31.2%.

If nobody flew on EOS, then Maxjet's average LF would have been about 10,171 / 21,012 = 48.4%.

[Bumz_Rush]

Another business only this time Luton to USA, coming soon.

Bumz

[carbootking]

apperently theres only 1 pax going on the evening flight tonight ? eos

[rusty_c]

apparantly is a good word to use

[carbootking]

sunday night nearly full i hear 43 eos

[Cyrano]

An article in the Sunday Times of 16 April (which I've just seen) claims:
CAA figures show [Maxjet] carried 1,753 passengers in January and 1,880 in February, and EOS 973 and 807 respectively. Rogliano [Maxjet CEO] claims that in March Maxjet carried just over 3,000.
So if Maxjet is 6x weekly with 102 seats, and EOS 7x weekly with 48 seats: that gives load factors of...
Jan: Maxjet 33%, EOS 33%
Feb: Maxjet 38%, EOS 30%
(Jan: 26 days @6/week, 31 days @7/week; Feb: 24 days @6/week, 28 days @7/week)

Taking 3,000 for Maxjet in March would give a much healthier 54%. In fact Maxjet put out a press release a couple of weeks back claiming >50% load factor for March and predicting 70% LF for their JFK route in April.

Standard disclaimer applies - we don't know the yields involved - but I note that both carriers have been discounting like crazy over the last couple of months. If I were EOS (and if the numbers above are accurate) I'd be worried about the trend in the numbers.

[Jamesair]

The CAA stats for the STN - JFK route for MARCH are shown as 4044 which at least shows an upward trend in traffic.

[Globaliser]

Unfortunately, an upward trend in traffic alone will not help much if the discounting has driven achieved yields down a long way.

[richardnei]

Todays booked load on the Eos STN/JFK is showng 15 Passengers booked.

Just if anyone wants to know.

Richard

[Doors to Automatic]

Maxjet have a good model and should do well in the long term if they can get through the start-up phase.

Eos haven't got a clue what they are doing and are too arrogant to be told. Someone is going to lose a hell of a lot of cash on that one!

[rusty_c]

I think that you might find that eos are far from ignorant. They are always willing to take customer feedback, and have made many decisions upon this!

Also I think its about time these two stop getting compared with each other! When was the last time we compared the whole Ryanair product with full service BA. They are completely different!! So are eos and Maxjet.

As for not having a clue of what theyre doing, if you had any idea about the company as a whole instead of being an IGNORANT sceptic perhaps you would find out that the company is run by a large number of experienced individuals.:)

[In trim]

Spoke to someone today who has recently travelled inbound on Eos. Very complimentary about the service, but as it is operated non-ETOPS, 90 minutes longer sector than the BA JFK-LHR sector. That's bound to impact the appeal!

[Stanstedeye]

Todays booked load on the Eos STN/JFK is showng 15 Passengers booked.
Just if anyone wants to know.
Richard

Thanks for the info richardnei, please keep this thread up to date.
:)

[Epsilon minus]

Rusty C
If the staff at Eos are that experienced how come they are using Stornoway as a rim alternate?
Looking at your seat filling activities to date and your massive discounting, I'd say your days are numbered and whilst you may not be as arrogant as Dto A reports, you are percieved to be and that's not very good is it?

[gatwicknose]

EOS received 120 min ETOPS approval on the 14th of March which puts them in line with everyone else....There is a long term strategy here...many carriers have failed because they were poorly funded..the opposite is true at EOS. The operation is well funded and reliable...fully realise that the moneypit isnt bottomless but the folks at EOS however they are perceived are a nice bunch and we should wish them success rather than sitting around like faceless vultures waiting for another one to bite the dust!!! some of the best pay in the industry apparently!!!

[Doors to Automatic]

Eos are not going to be successful in the long term. Shout at me all you like but that is a fact as sure as night follows day.

[FLEXJET]

IMHO there are a few things to consider before launching a full business class service on such a crowded route :
- do you offer an attractive frequent flyer program ?
- do you have enough daily flights ?
- is your aircraft fast enough (e.g. will the passenger notice the M.04 to M.08 cruise difference compared to a B747 ?)

I think the Privatair model is the way to go ! (except for the cruise M numbers...).

[Cyrano]

...and I would add another to Flexjet's list:
* do you have the ability to win big corporate deals?

Privatair avoids these problems by being the wet-lease provider for the big guy, so benefits from LH's or KL's or LX's FFP/network/corporate sales presence. Of course the flip side of Privatair's taking less risk is that they get less reward when things go well, but it seems like a reasonable tradeoff...

[Doors to Automatic]

Privatair operates a completely different model from Eos for the reasons already stated.

Eos is offering nothing new just more of the same - luxury service for slightly less than the big guys but with no FFP, frequency and little service back-up. At best they will be competing with the LHR carriers for a slice of a lucrative but small market and one which is conditioned to preferring wide-bodied aircraft.

The clever guys in this game will realise that there are some cost sensitive business travellers working for corporates as well as a huge number of directors of small businesses (like myself) who would be happy to pay £800-1200 for some luxury but not £2500-3000.

We are happy to lose the FFP, the frequency and the flat-beds (after-all are you really telling me you can get a good-night's sleep on a 6hr JFK-LON sector?) in return for a lower fare.

In addition there are a growing number of affluent leisure travellers (especially in the SE) which may include those recently retired or younger folk in successful careers who may want the same.

The really savvy operator would include a premium economy class with return fares in the region of £300-600 to tap into the leisure end of the market.

This is the least risky model for a new premium service start-up and NOT what Eos is doing!

[The SSK]

There's a far more fundamental problem with low-frequency transatlantic services. One aircraft can operate a daily rotation to the East Coast - in theory. In practice, it allows no leeway for cumulative delays, technical problems or scheduled maintenance. If you start cancelling flights for these reasons your credibility goes straight out of the window. If you provide a standby aircraft and crew, your costs go skyhigh. If you go technical at Stansted you're limited as to who can help you out with stranded passengers.

Nothing to do with high or low fares. Some of us remember People Express, whose schedule integrity transatlantic was a joke, and ultimately cost them their market.

[alexss]

There should be a space in the market for a carrier such as Maxjet whilst the established carriers charge such astronomical fares for non-economy long haul travel.

Long haul economy has now got so bad on many carriers that the seats are physically painful to sit in for an hour, let alone 8+ hours. There are lots of affluent leisure passengers and price-sensitive business passengers who would pay a bit more to avoid this but who can't/won't pay £000s more.

Compare the fares on BA: The cheapest LHR-JFK economy fare is about £300 return; in World Traveller Plus it's about £800. For a fare 160% higher, you get about 20% more space - and absolutely nothing else. Business class starts at £2k return, 600% more than economy. These price premia do not remotely reflect the additional costs to the airline.

Premium passengers are cross-subsidising everybody else, and this creates an opportunity for new carriers. Good luck Maxjet.

In contrast I can't understand what Eos's unique selling point is. On the rare occasions my employer is willing to pay £3k for a long haul flight, I go for carriers with convenient central airports, backup if something goes wrong and an FFP...

[gatwicknose]

The bashers are out in force today!!!

EOS as u know have three aircraft so backup is more than adequate. The backup based in STN is doing quite a lot of charter work and the schedule has been adjusted from may 23rd to ensure that utilisation is maximised. This thread seems to be full of paper airline CEO's , I would hate to see any airline fail and wish these guys the best....I have flown with them and the service is outstanding.

Having worked for people express I dispute the reason for thier demise...the model as a low cost was ahead of its time...but there were hundreds of chiefs and very few indians....I think in this day and age with the technology we have it may have worked...we just wernt ready for a pay on board ticketing system...played hell with cashflow...

Give the new guys a chance!!

[Andy_S]

The backup based in STN is doing quite a lot of charter work
So how can it be backup??
I don't see any bashers. In fact by the standards of this part of PPRuNe the most recent posts have been well thought out and argued, and make a number of very pertinent points. The fact that someone is sceptical about the business plan or long term viability of EOS does not mean they wish the outfit to fail.
This thread seems to be full of paper airline CEO's
Funny you should say that.

[Cyrano]

Gatwicknose:
Thanks for the update on the schedule - I hadn't realised it was being changed. I note that it will then be operable with one aircraft: STN 1600-JFK 1845LT and then JFK 2015 - STN0830LT.
I have to assume that this is being done for cost-saving reasons rather than customer-preference reasons - after all, their original (existing) schedule didn't have the we've-got-to-fit-a-round-trip-on-one-aircraft constraint, so presumably that original schedule (depart STN 1810 - arr JFK 2055, and depart JFK 1905 - arrive STN 0715) was felt to have optimal timings. Indeed, back in November, here's what David Spurlock said in the schedule-change press release on the EOS website, i.e. when they changed their STN departure to 1810 (while the eastbound timings stayed as they were, with an 0715 STN arrival):
“In less than five weeks of service, the enthusiasm of our guests to Eos’ unique approach to
business travel has been nothing short of spectacular,” said David Spurlock, founder and chief
executive officer of Eos. “Our London-bound business executives have enjoyed moving
quickly through London Stansted airport, and arriving in short order to their destination in the
City by about 9 am. With our schedule change, our guests can now work nearly a full day and
arrive in New York in the early evening.”
As a passenger, I can see two disadvantages to the new schedule. I can no longer work "nearly a full day" in London - I have to leave my office there two hours earlier, essentially just after lunchtime, to get the flight, and in the other direction, whereas I could previously have aimed to arrive in STN at 0715, had a quick shower, and got the limo to take me into the City for an 0900 start (as per DS quote above), that's unlikely to be feasible any more.
But (with my non-paper airline strategist hat on) I can accept that compromises have to be made, especially if the revenue is not building up as fast as hoped.
However - and here's the bit I'm curious about - EOS have three 757s, all on lease from ILFC. EOS isn't actually going to make any operational savings from this schedule change unless they are giving one aircraft back to the lessor or deploying it somewhere else. So their options are:

Give the aircraft back to ILFC (unlikely to be welcomed!)
Sublease the aircraft to someone else, to offset their fixed lease-rental costs
Start a corporate-shuttle operation for someone
Dedicate the aircraft to ad hoc charter, which is apparently going well
Start a new route (although there would need to be a lead-in period)
Start a second daily frequency (but wouldn't it make sense to do so at the same time that you're changing the schedule anyway?)


Oh, and one other thing: I have to echo Andy_S's comments. I've seen "bashers" on PPRUNE when a new airline appears - we all have. But there's a difference between "I think their livery sucks and they didn't give me a job and anyway they fly Boeings and I know Airbus is better so I HOPE THEY FAIL but now I have to go back to my homework" :hmm: and well-reasoned questioning of business assumptions. I'd love to see EOS succeed. I know how tough it is to launch a (non-paper) airline, having been in that position myself, and I have a lot of respect for anyone who seriously tries. But some business models and business decisions are just more questionable, and less robust, than others.

There's a big difference between wishing to see an airline fail, and expressing a (reasoned) opinion that it's in danger of failing.
I'll be happy if I'm proven wrong, but I've not seen anything yet to convince me EOS has turned the corner. Yes, they are doing something different, and deserve credit for that. Yes, they have superb customer service. Yes, they have a backup plane for schedule integrity. Yes, they're cheaper than BA's published C class fare. These are all positives. But they serve only one route. They are competing against BA's most profitable route (and probably BA's most profitable class on that route). They are buying traffic with a whole series of advance-booking offers and promotions and discounts (today, for example, there's a buy-one-get-one-free sale on the website). Their FFP is essentially a money-back offer. Their European Sales VP has left (reported in ABTN on April 4). Their load factors, based on available evidence, are building more slowly than expected.

Perhaps they'll come through this - they have reasonably deep pockets in terms of startup funding, and as I say I think their product is fantastic and I give them credit for seeking to break the mould - but I submit that the evidence is not yet on their side.

(edited to amend "very deep pockets" to "reasonably deep pockets" - I went back and looked at some of the startup press material.)

[rusty_c]

I have to agree with you there.
One flight a day offers zero flexibility.

I have heard however that the catering on Privatair is not full of any bright ideas or innovation.

A rep from another airline once said to me "People would rather fly in a 747 than a 757. How good does it sound when you say you flew over in a plane that many airlines use for charters?" Who agrees?

[rusty_c]

One more thing, eos has a very generous frequent flyer programme.

[Doors to Automatic]

... which is only available on one route! :ok:

[Cyrano]

I have to agree with you there.
One flight a day offers zero flexibility.
I have heard however that the catering on Privatair is not full of any bright ideas or innovation.
A rep from another airline once said to me "People would rather fly in a 747 than a 757. How good does it sound when you say you flew over in a plane that many airlines use for charters?" Who agrees?
Rusty:

I think you're missing at least a couple of points here.
Privatair provides a service corresponding to the standard business class service of the carrier it's working for. So it's providing standard Lufthansa or KLM or Swiss catering and its cabin crew are dressed in Lufthansa or KLM or Swiss uniforms. Privatair's advantage is not that's it's delivering a super-luxury or innovative in-flight product, but rather that, by virtue of its smaller aircraft, the major carrier is able to offer business passengers a non-stop service on a route which wouldn't justify such a service in the first place with a larger plane.

And as for "how good does it sound...?" it sounds to me as though someone was smoking something, or maybe just winding you up! Have you noticed that 747s are used for charters too? ;) I *could* perhaps imagine a reaction among nervous flyers: "oh no, I don't want to fly a long overwater sector in a relatively small plane like that." But "I don't want to fly in that because other airlines use it for charter flights and so people will think worse of me"? Hello? :ooh:

EOS does indeed have an extremely generous frequent flyer programme. However it essentially consists of cash back. From the airline's point of view this is far more onerous than a "traditional" programme where the passenger can earn miles for future travel. In a traditional FFP the cost to the carrier of a free award ticket is the marginal cost of carrying one more passenger (because Rev Man will aim to avoid displacing a revenue passenger with an award one). Thus my 50,000 miles entitling me to a transatlantic round trip will only show up on the carrier's balance sheet as e.g. £50 (if that's the marginal cost of catering, fuel, ticket issuance, etc.). However in EOS's case, they're offering iPods, flights on other carriers, and so on, which third parties have to be paid for in cash. So yes, it's attractive for the punter, but it's a further (large) chunk off the passenger revenue, much more so than for their competitors.

[jack_essex]

Just seen that Maxjet have a seat sale. I've just checked the website and you can get a return from London to New York for £575 including taxes and charges.

[Doors to Automatic]

Thats why they are going to be successful - none of this "we've got a flat bed and we're £50 cheaper than BA full C-class" nonsense!!

[Epsilon minus]

Or the only way they can get BOS is by seat dumping :\

[gatwicknose]

Reasoned replies all round....this is proving to be a very active and useful forum....

For everyones info..EOS have a a pretty busy programme of charter flights during may. Most of these flights will originate from STN utilising the extra aircraft that resides there from time to time. The third aircraft will serve as a backup with the fairly firm prospect of a second daily departure from september.

As for aircraft type, I dont really see the issue here...the interior of the EOS 757 provides a pretty relaxing and roomy interior similar in many ways to the upper deck of the 747-400. Both the flight deck and cabin crew are professional and vastly experienced so the aircraft type is not a stumbling block.

There are some anomolous points about EOS which are hard to understand but overall they idea is good...my only hope is that an airline that has been started "back to front" ie everything but passengers!! has the deepest pockets in upper new york state!

[Globaliser]

Thats why they are going to be successful - none of this "we've got a flat bed and we're £50 cheaper than BA full C-class" nonsense!!It's pretty scary if they feel that they have to run a J class sale that undercuts BA's W class fare.

I wish them no ill, and it is always interesting to see people giving it a try. But as a matter of commercial reality, I fear that this may herald the beginning of the end.

[Doors to Automatic]

In case anyone is interested in order to break-even at typical load factors of 65-70% MaxJet would need a fare in the region of £350-400 one-way excluding taxes etc.

[rusty_c]

Eos have a seat sale promotion - begining of the end of a poorly run airline
Maxjet has a seat sale - Great airline, going to put BA out of business

I think the fact of the matter is that some people (DTA) do no want an ambitious, well run airline to succeed.

Bums on seats is all that matters to eos, once people have experienced it with perhaps a discounted fare, then they will be back time and time again. As if some people who were really in the know would tell you, people are going back to eos and use them wherever possible.

As seen on the eos website, even Fergie thinks this is the way forward!

[Cyrano]

I think I had more faith in EOS before you pointed that endorsement out! :cool:

[Doors to Automatic]

Given that I have absolutely no association with either why would I want Maxjet to succeed and Eos to fail?

All I am pointing out is that Maxjet offers a unique proposition whilst with Eos it is just more of the same. Having a unique proposition is not a guarantee of success but it stacks the odds far more in your favour.

I also think that Maxjet could improve its model with a premium economy class.

[Stanstedeye]

gatwicknose

Where can info on the proposed EOS charter flights from STN be obtained?

[gatwicknose]

I have the info but sadly cannot pass on...flights will postion ex stn to various points.....but there are a good 7 or 8 days of flying

[LB1985]

Taken from this week's ABTN newsletter, regarding Maxjet:

ALL-BUSINESS-CLASS BOOKINGS: The MAXjet model of a one-configuration airline has been met with huge applause, with our booking loads to New York regularly exceeding 50%. We have managed to build up our loads as quickly, if not quicker, than any airline that has developed a new international route and recently for the first time ever, our New York flight was 100% full. Forward bookings indicate that the New York route will average at 70% load factors for the month, with bookings for June also looking strong. The Stansted to Washington route is gaining ground and we are confident in its success with forward bookings for some flights already indicating 50% load factors.

Furthermore:

Not only do our forward bookings illustrate the growing success, butthe quality of our product is also endorsed by the results from thefirst ever passenger survey. Some 87% of our customers found theexperience to be ‘very good’ or ‘excellent’ and 95% of passengers saidthey would be likely to fly with us again. We are now negotiating forour third and fourth aircraft to expand the MAXjet fleet.

See here (http://www.abtn.co.uk/thisweek.html) for more. :ok:

[Cyrano]

LB1985:

I read the same ABTN piece but had to apply a hearty pinch of salt. In particular, the assertion that taking 5 months to build a new international route to an average 70% load factor is some sort of world record :ooh: would come as a surprise to the low-cost carriers (on numerous routes) and also compares unfavourably to the likes of Continental or Emirates whose EDI-EWR and GLA-DXB startups (to take two examples) did far better far faster (and with more than 102 seats to fill every day).

I think Maxjet is trying to sound big and strong at the moment, particularly with Silverjet trying to raise funding to start a Maxjet-lookalike operation out of LTN, so I put this sort of hyperbole down to that. Shame, because I think they have a decent story to tell without the need for exaggeration.

[gatwicknose]

Not totally startled that loads are good considering they are selling abiz class service and economy prices....load factors mean absolutely nothing unless the revenue attached pays the cost of the operation!!!

This could apply to either Maxjet or EOS..

[Epsilon minus]

This thread has swung predominately towards Maxjet (nice piece in the telegraph today) but what is happening to eos. Are their load factors placing the business at peril?

[HZ123]

Neither of the load factors quoted would particularly please the owners or the Banks. Even 70% is only just ticking over and if you look at the United web site ex LHR they too are offering low fare business class. Lets hope that both Max / EOS do get the chance to establish themselves but Silver at this time will not help?

[Epsilon minus]

Eos, Maxjet reveal financials for second half of '05

Financial reports submitted to the US DOT by all-business transatlantic startups Eos and Maxjet Airlines reveal the level of deficit each carrier accumulated for the six months ended 2005.

Eos launched service on October 18, followed two weeks later by Maxjet’s November 1 inaugural flight. As such, each carrier’s recorded earnings for the second half of last year include a period when neither was in operation.

In it required ‘form 41’ submission to the regulator, Eos says it posted a net loss of $36.5 million on revenue of $1.3 million for the six-month period. The carrier incurred expenses of $38.2 million, leading to an operating loss of $36.9 million.

At December 31, Eos listed its total assets at $51.7 million.

Maxjet, meanwhile, reported a net loss of $10.2 million against revenue of $2.4 million during the second half of the year. The airline’s expenses totaled $10.7 million and it posted an $8.3 million operating loss.

Its assets were worth nearly $12.5 million at December 31.

Eos operates service between New York JFK and London Stansted using Boeing 757s configured with 48 seats. Maxjet also serves this route, and last month began flights linking Washington Dulles with Stansted. The carrier’s 767 aircraft are equipped with 102 business-class seats.

[EarthOrbitor]

i think its time to pull the plug for Eos then, as it's assets will be dissolved in a matter of months if the losses continue! Just $1.3m revenue in 6 months!? My God, you'd earn more if they sold every seat every day at low-cost prices!

Max-Jet sounds less of a risk, but still revenue is appalling

I reckon the investors in Silverjet will be worried to say the least

[Epsilon minus]

I agree, especially as Eos and Maxjet are operating from the better airfield - better connections and a fulsome hinterland.

[Hunter58]

Nothing to do with high or low fares. Some of us remember People Express, whose schedule integrity transatlantic was a joke, and ultimately cost them their market.

Well, having this from a source who was at PE it had only to do with fares. If your BESLF (Break Even Seat Load Factos) is 120, you have a definite problem, and that is what PE's problem was...

[Cyrano]

i think its time to pull the plug for Eos then, as it's assets will be dissolved in a matter of months if the losses continue! Just $1.3m revenue in 6 months!? My God, you'd earn more if they sold every seat every day at low-cost prices!
Max-Jet sounds less of a risk, but still revenue is appalling
I reckon the investors in Silverjet will be worried to say the least
EarthOrbitor:
Consider landing on earth and reading that original report again before you let loose with the over-the-top rhetoric.
As such, each carrier’s recorded earnings for the second half of last year include a period when neither was in operation.
EOS launched in mid-October, so $1.3m represents 2.5 months of revenue rather than six months. Go do your sums again.
Several of us around here have expressed doubts over the last few months about the robustness of the all-premium business model for a startup carrier (especially in EOS' case), and it does appear that EOS's initial loads were very poor, but basing criticism on faulty arithmetic doesn't really advance the discussion.
Any carrier is going to incur startup costs which initially exceed revenues, especially if the period which the accounts cover represents six months of startup costs and only the first ten weeks of revenue (eight or so in Maxjet's case). Virtually no startup airlines could expect to be profitable over such a short period. Silverjet, for your information, is projecting in its published business plan that it will take two years to reach profitability - and this is the basis on which it's secured investment recently. So I don't think the startup finances of EOS will tell the Silverjet investors anything they didn't already know when they were writing their cheques.
C.

[EarthOrbitor]

Cyrano

thanks for pointing that out i totally forgot it was over a shorter period. But still...

Whether it's $1.3m revenue in one, two or three months or indeed 6 months - it's still diabolical and that was my point. They could make $1.3m in ONE MONTH if they sold all seats on all flights at $226 one way (assuming two daily's on 30 days a month)

I'm just thinking of the investors money! It's being flushed down a very large plug hole. (These days airlines need to make returns pretty quick)

[Globaliser]

(These days airlines need to make returns pretty quick)EOS is backed by some people with (reportedly) extremely deep pockets and (reportedly) extremely deep patience. Obviously, there will come a time when even the most laid-back investor will call it quits, but from what I have read, they knew that success could be a long time coming and they're prepared to wait.

[Doors to Automatic]

Globaliser

I sometimes wonder how these investors have arrived at a position of having deep pockets given their breathtakingly naive decisions. I said Eos didn't have a chance of success the day it launched and I say so again today. It is not a question of if but when. :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[gatwicknose]

Travelled on EOS twice in the last two weeks...outbound the load was 46 out of 48 and on the return 44....95% of the pax were revenue pax...

There is an 18 sector charter program this month on top of the daily scheduled flights and the addtion of an extra flight in September...investors include Sutter Home Wine and Starbucks so very deep pockets and a long term strategy for growth are clearly evident.....dont be so quick to write them off!!

[rusty_c]

Here Here!!! At last somebody who knows what they are talking about! With some true factual information to back up a point! Not just a pessimist who would like to see some innovation flushed down the toilet!

[Doors to Automatic]

Travelled on EOS twice in the last two weeks...outbound the load was 46 out of 48 and on the return 44....95% of the pax were revenue pax...
There is an 18 sector charter program this month on top of the daily scheduled flights and the addtion of an extra flight in September...investors include Sutter Home Wine and Starbucks so very deep pockets and a long term strategy for growth are clearly evident.....dont be so quick to write them off!!

All depands how much the passengers were paying for their tickets.

[rusty_c]

:* Blimey! You really do not want to see EOS do well do you? Your persistent EOS bashing is really starting to lag now! You were proved wrong and again came back with a negative comment. Come on give it a rest and let people really discuss these two new....ish exciting airlines

[trainer too 2]

DTA has a very valid point. It is not so much how many pax but what they paid :)

[Doors to Automatic]

:* Blimey! You really do not want to see EOS do well do you? Your persistent EOS bashing is really starting to lag now! You were proved wrong and again came back with a negative comment. Come on give it a rest and let people really discuss these two new....ish exciting airlines

As I have said before I have nothing to do with either Eos or Maxjet so have nothing to gain or lose if they succeed or fail. I am merely stating fact and my interpretation that the Eos business model is fundamentally flawed.

The flights may be busier now but the indications are that this is down to greater availability of heavily discounted fares. But as Eos is discounting so is Maxjet and with the new Luton start-up (forget it's name) about to take-off (offering seats averaging £499 one way) the winner will ultimately be the one with the lowest seat mile costs. And that isn't a 48-seat 757 !!!

I'm happy to be proved wrong by anyone with a sensible argument based on fact rather than emotion.

[Cyrano]

Profile of David Spurlock, EOS founder, in Saturday's Telegraph here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2006/06/10/ccprof10.xml).

[Bumz_Rush]

...and enough aircraft too, I believe Maxjet has 2 76s' - one goes tech and you have a major issue!


Correct me if I'm wrong of course!

[Golf Charlie Charlie]

In New York at present - EOS are advertising heavily on local radio, something I haven't heard before. They talk of some offer that if you book now, you can get a free flight for a 'companion' when you make a subsequent reservation......

[Looooong haul]

Thanks to Spurlock's analysis, BA saw where it made real money. That was flying businessmen across the Atlantic in first- and club-class cabins.

Errrr doesn't everybody know this..... :rolleyes:

[tommyc2005]

Yes, load factors don’t tell the whole story but the latest CAA stats for May show 5489 pax travelled between STN and JFK. That is a big increase on April, and shows a continuing upward trend. Overall LF for the route between the two is 64.7%.

Washington isn’t looking so promising though at present, just 42 pax per flight, but again that is an increase on April which was pretty poor. Perhaps the extra weekly flight starting this month will benefit them.

[jack_essex]

Both airlines seem to be doing really well lately.

Maxjet have sold 90 seats of of 102 for tomorrows STN - JFK flight and Eos have sold 46 out of 48 for tomorrows flight aswell.

[GOLF-INDIA BRAVO]

Anyone can fill an aircraft but at what cost
I remember where I used to work that we took on a program
to Jersey which was the biggest mistake our company ever made and nearly cost me my job because the flight program was set up with little or no thought, we sold about 20 seats on most flights on a BAe146 and ended dumping them at a very low price a couple of weeks before departure just to gain a few pounds towards the charter cost
It was unrealistic and cost a lot of money and a few jobs and
made one person very ill with stress

G-I-B

[carbootking]

most of the max jet paxs ive talked to have paid only about 600 return they love the service , but aircraft is a bit scruffy , apperently the washington service takes 1 half hours more than virgin that was 1 thing anoying 1 person other day plus they were late taking off and missed their connection at stansted.

[Golf Charlie Charlie]

Re : Eos. Report in today's New York Times says Eos is now breaking even, with load factors now 70% and 100 corporate clients signed up. A second daily starts in September STN/JFK.

[RoyHudd]

Good luck to them. Just wait for the big airlines' reactions once they detect erosion of their premium market sector share.

Shades of Freddy Laker, I foresee, even if the product is at the other end of the price scale.

[rusty_c]

I think I saw yesterday, that Delta are to introduce some all premium aircraft!

[tommyc2005]

Interestingly, todays Maxjet to Washington has been cancelled, but there is a flight to Orlando - a one off charter, or a prover for a new route? Perhaps they are looking at operating a couple of flights a week on days IAD doesn't operate?

[rusty_c]

Charter only im afraid!

[Stanstedeye]

Interestingly, todays Maxjet to Washington has been cancelled, but there is a flight to Orlando - a one off charter, or a prover for a new route? Perhaps they are looking at operating a couple of flights a week on days IAD doesn't operate?

Interesting flight code MXJ !

[Stanstedeye]

Charter only im afraid!

Was this one of the mystery charters scheduled for EOS ?

[rusty_c]

Maybe! Well MXJ is Maxjets alternate code! So nothing to spawn a rumour there. Ive heard on the great vine that the aircraft were chartered for the same company!

[gatwicknose]

EOS also doing charters to Orlando ex ZRH..two flights..not usre what the event is but seemingly pretty busy..

[Stanstedeye]

The Maxjet Charter from Orlando MY 8000, returning to STN at 10.30 today.

[Stanstedeye]

Stanstedeye

Today, 2 arrivals from Orlando. MY 9288 at 08.00, & My 9003 at 09.00.

[Bumz_Rush]

Apart from the developments at Dullas, I was very impressed with the total package on offer, the location of the lounge and gate at Dullas was perfect. The flight was perhaps 75% full, with a "heavy" uniformed crew, plus at least 6 off duty staff travelling too.

The cabin service was excellent, and totally desolved the belief that all american cabin crew are *********

Only complaint is the inability of the IFE unit, to be safely secured to the seat back, to enable viewing whilst eating, etc.

The "unexpected" missed approach at Stansted was "due to traffic not cleared the runway", but as we were well otside the marker, with no gear down, I was a little sceptical.

I would wish MaxJet the best of luck with the service, and would certainly use them again.

Bumz

[airhumberside]

A report in the Sunday Times say MaxJet will float on AIM - the Alternative Investment Market

[carbootking]

there was roughly 100 posh chauffer cars waiting this morning to pick up of the 2 orlando flights a few coming up at a time doors open waiting for their pssengers.

[jack_essex]

Yes, load factors don’t tell the whole story but the latest CAA stats for May show 5489 pax travelled between STN and JFK. That is a big increase on April, and shows a continuing upward trend. Overall LF for the route between the two is 64.7%.

Washington isn’t looking so promising though at present, just 42 pax per flight, but again that is an increase on April which was pretty poor. Perhaps the extra weekly flight starting this month will benefit them.

Could someone please give me the link to these CAA figures. I'm on their site but can't find them!

Thanks

[WHBM]

Let's start a rumour.

Maxjet buy out Eos, Spurlock pockets a few million, they flog off the 757s, stick about 15 of the Eos sleeper seats in the front cabin of each of their 767s, and offer both services on the same aircraft. :)

Actually Maxjet seem to be capturing some attention in the UK as well, there's a continuing "infomercial" on LBC radio in London with free flights as a competition prize. It must get them a lot of exposure for the spend.

They probably aren't affecting the revenue of BA/VS/AA greatly (apparently transatlantic business travel is well up overall this year) but there will be a small nuisance value.

[rusty_c]

Forgive me if this is outlandish. But I heard recently tht Maxjet may introduce a similar service from GLA. I thought this sounded ridiculous!!

[turnipgreen]

Could someone please give me the link to these CAA figures. I'm on their site but can't find them!
Thanks

Go to www.caaerg.co.uk This is the CAA's stats site (in effect). Go to airport stats and its usually table 12 from memory. gives you pax stats from all UK airports. usually a 3-month time lag as thats the time it takes airports to erport and the CAA to compile. Good hunting!