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strafer
12th Apr 2006, 11:15
I wonder if we can have a non-vitrolic discussion, or is it destined for the Hamster Wheel?

(BBC) What does the Union Flag mean to you?

The British flag turns 400 years old this week.
James I commissioned it to represent the union between England and Scotland and, though the flag has been through a few minor changes, the red, blue and white stripes have symbolised Britain since 1606.
The flag flies from royal palaces, government buildings and is draped across the shoulders of victorious sportsmen and women. Though for some it has become a symbol of skinheads and the far right.
What does the Union Flag mean to you? What place do you think the flag has in today's Britain? Are you proud of your national flag? Would you fly a flag or have you ever been stopped from flying one? Tell us what you think of the Union Flag.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/home/images/2005/0319/history/union_flag.jpg

Parapunter
12th Apr 2006, 11:20
One wonders why there exists a perception throughout the modern world that flaunting ones flag is a patriotic gesture welcomed by ones countrymen and yet in the UK, it seems to be the domain of plebs, chavs & skinheads??

I must admit looking down ones own nose during Euro 2004, when the rash of little stiff union flags seemed to adorn every cab & white van around & yet why would we not wish to support our national teams brave efforts (save for that prat Beckham skying the penno then pointing at the penno spot as if to suggest it had somehow moved the ball at the point of kicking!) by waving our flag??

Farmer 1
12th Apr 2006, 11:33
I'd be quite happy to see it flying more, if only the people who think they are patriotic don't know which way up it should be.

Two countries I have never seen it flown upside down are Canada and the USA.

MyData
12th Apr 2006, 11:43
Can anyone give an explaination as to why the cross of St. Patrick doesn't line up across the diagonals? Something that vexed me when drawing the flag at school and I've never heard of why this is so.


Quite right Farmer. I'll stick my neck out here, but isn't it correctly raised if one of the St. Patrick crosses which intersects the vertical is at the top left? (if that makes sense)?

tony draper
12th Apr 2006, 11:50
We all used to march past it and salute on Empire Day at school,bring it back say I,we should have some pride after all we dragged half the world down from the trees and stopped em eating each other.:E
We failed in dismally this task in the Americas though:(
:rolleyes:

PTT
12th Apr 2006, 11:52
Proper (http://www.jdawiseman.com/papers/union-jack/union-jack.html) Union Jack stuff.

Don't know where you got that flag, Strafer, but the internal diagonal corners are wrong.

Farmer 1
12th Apr 2006, 11:54
In order to incorporate the Cross of St. Patrick (a red diagonal cross on white) while preserving the individual entities of the three crosses, the heraldic advisers to the sovereign found an elegant solution. The existing white Cross of St. Andrew was divided diagonally, with the red appearing below the white on the hoist half of the flag and above it on the fly half. To avoid having the red cross touch the blue background, which would be contrary to heraldic law, a fimbriation (narrow border) of white was added to the red cross. In the centre, a white fimbriation also separated the Cross of St. Patrick from the red Cross of St. George. (Encyclopaedia Britannica.)


MyData,

Depends on which way you look at it, doesn't it? The broad white diagonal stripe should be uppermost near the flagstaff.

MyData
12th Apr 2006, 12:08
Thanks Farmer, after about six read throughs that started to make sense!

And I think we are in agreement on determining which way the flag should fly.

This discussion was on one of the radio stations this morning. Apparently one needs planning permission for a flag pole (and they are probably taxed too). So I guess that is why there aren't so many on these isles either in corporate or private use.

eal401
12th Apr 2006, 12:08
I must admit looking down ones own nose during Euro 2004, when the rash of little stiff union flags seemed to adorn every cab & white van around
Funny. I was doing the same at all the Cross of St George flags. Hardly saw any Union Flags.

strafer
12th Apr 2006, 12:56
Don't know where you got that flag, Strafer, but the internal diagonal corners are wrong.Quite right. It's not wrong though, just cropped. I'm trying to be a good boy and save bandwidth. (Yeah right!).

I'm interested to know why Parapunter and eal401 'looked down their noses' though.

colmac747
12th Apr 2006, 13:00
One wonders if the English football yobbos during the World Cup will parade around with a Union Jack flag, thinking (and believing) it's the flag of England?:8

Parapunter
12th Apr 2006, 13:02
...Coz I admit to this inexplicable snobbishness over the flag. One finds it does tend to be the white van man & the skinheads who appropriate it & there's really nothing wrong with the white van man - we'd soon be in trouble if he withdrew his services:} Not so keen on the skinheads though.

strafer
12th Apr 2006, 13:07
You obviously don't watch a lot of English football Colmac? The flag of St George has been the petard of choice for quite a while now. Union flags at England games are rarer than a Scottish goal.:)

Last time I was at Wembley though (Eng v Germany), there was a huge Saltire being proudly held aloft by the 'German' fans.

G-CPTN
12th Apr 2006, 13:13
We found it pleasant and impressive that so many Danes display their flag whenever possible, on festival days or even just fine weekends. Many homes and summerhouses have their own flagpole, and buses are frequently adorned with flags, and EVERY birthday party or jubilee party has the Danish flag in abundance. We adopted the habit, and even after returning to the UK, our 'honorary Danish' children (they grew up there) still revere and honour the Danish flag, probably more than the Union flag or the 'English' flag.
Our local hospital is under seige from the District Council for flying flags WITHOUT PERMISSION.

fmgc
12th Apr 2006, 13:16
It is the Union Flag, not the Union Jack. (common misconception)

G-CPTN
12th Apr 2006, 13:18
The FSL might disagree . . .

. . . though I believe he was a Red Duster man . . .

strafer
12th Apr 2006, 13:26
To carry on from G-CPTN's point, I lived in Denmark for a while and also Holland. It would be hard to find two more socially 'liberal' countries, yet neither has a problem with displaying National symbols at the drop of a hat. During Queens's Day in Amsterdam, everything, and I mean everything, is bright orange. So much so, it hurts your eyes after a while (If only their king had been William of Beige :cool:).

Yet, and some of the posts above are examples, in this country patriotic flags & symbols are seen as the preserve of the far right. (English and British symbols only, obviously)

Onan the Clumsy
12th Apr 2006, 13:32
Though for some it has become a symbol of skinheads and the far right. Unless things havechanged since I left, that would be the Cross of St George, not the Union Flag.

As to the difference in the thickness of the White Stripe. there was a thread on prune once about this and it's to do with showing something is more important that something else. It creates the three diagonal stripes in the ratio 1:2:3

More than you could ever want to know here (http://www.fotw.net/flags/gb.html)



rab tsk tsk tsk Original indeed! :*
None of these are very convincing designs and none were ever used. The Scots did, however, use an ingenious design in which the white cross of the St Andrew's flag was brought forward to overlay the red cross. This flag even seems to have achieved some limited official sanction. When the king visited Dumfries in 1618 he was hailed as the king under whose banner "the whyte and reid croces are so proportionablie interlaced." The word interlaced is held to be significant as it implies the use of the 'Scottish' version of the Union Flag:

:E

Flip Flop Flyer
12th Apr 2006, 13:40
400 years? Pah, upstart!

http://i1.tinypic.com/v80vfm.jpg


In 1219 at the battle at Tallinn when all hope was out and his great army was about to be defeated, his bishops started to prey… and down from the sky it fell, a red flag with a white cross. Valdemar and his men saw this and after this sign from god, the luck on the battlefield changed and Valdemar won again… After the battle Valdemar the Victorious decided that this should be the symbol for his country.

Buster Hyman
12th Apr 2006, 13:45
Yeah, not a bad flag...but it really needs the Commonwealth Star & the Southern Cross to finish it off!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b9/Flag_of_Australia.svg/800px-Flag_of_Australia.svg.png

strafer
12th Apr 2006, 13:49
2.5 hours Buster!!!

I had 30 minutes in the sweep. :*

Buster Hyman
12th Apr 2006, 13:51
I had 2.5 hours...loser!:} :ouch: :suspect:

Capt.Grumpy
12th Apr 2006, 14:38
Way to go Buster :ok:

djk
12th Apr 2006, 14:48
I wonder if we can have a non-vitrolic discussion, or is it destined for the Hamster Wheel?
(BBC) What does the Union Flag mean to you?
The British flag turns 400 years old this week.
James I commissioned it to represent the union between England and Scotland and, though the flag has been through a few minor changes, the red, blue and white stripes have symbolised Britain since 1606.
The flag flies from royal palaces, government buildings and is draped across the shoulders of victorious sportsmen and women. Though for some it has become a symbol of skinheads and the far right.
What does the Union Flag mean to you? What place do you think the flag has in today's Britain? Are you proud of your national flag? Would you fly a flag or have you ever been stopped from flying one? Tell us what you think of the Union Flag.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/home/images/2005/0319/history/union_flag.jpg

I fly the flag from the side of my house, although I haven't since storms last September ripped the flag pole from the side of the house.
Once I get a moment, it'll be back well in time for July 4th :) I do that just to irritate the neighbours

effortless
12th Apr 2006, 14:49
I love it but what I really love about it is that we don't need to go round waving it all the time. Unlike our cousins we aren't so insecure. The best place to see it is of course in the corner of a white duster.
http://www.security-forums.com/images/avatars/14067643424048ec12a6053.gif

djk
12th Apr 2006, 16:05
forgot to mention that I have a little union flag on my desk.
can't understand why others in my office have their "Stars and Stripes" on their desks as they could always look out of the window and see the flag on the pole outside :rolleyes:

BenThere
12th Apr 2006, 16:12
Unlike our cousins we aren't so insecure.

Or maybe, unlike many of them, you don't think your country is all that great, or at least nothing of which to be proud.

patdavies
12th Apr 2006, 16:24
It is the Union Flag, not the Union Jack. (common misconception)

The names have been interchangeable since Parliament agreed this in 1908,

patdavies
12th Apr 2006, 16:26
Apparently one needs planning permission for a flag pole (and they are probably taxed too). So I guess that is why there aren't so many on these isles either in corporate or private use.

AFAIK, unless you are in a conservation area, a free standing flagpole specifically does not require planning permission. One attached to a building, especially non-vertically does need PP.

djk
12th Apr 2006, 16:32
Or maybe, unlike many of them, you don't think your country is all that great, or at least nothing of which to be proud.

Quite the contrary, Ben.
You'll find that your English cousins are somewhat modest in their patriotic feelings. The only time you'll really find the Union Flag or even the individual flags of each nation within the UK are during international sporting events.

I found it highly amusing the other week to see t-shirts in a local store proudly displaying the slogan "USA - Home of the brave, land of the free"
then looking inside and seeing on the label "made in Israel"

Many people in the US think that just displaying a bumper sticker with the words "support our troops" or "proud to be American" makes them think they've done their bit to display their patriotic pride, but then they're happy to drive petrol/gas guzzling vehicles thus using up a large portion of the nation's fuel reserves.

frostbite
12th Apr 2006, 18:33
I would like to see the Union flag flown on all public buildings, especially schools.

rab-k
12th Apr 2006, 19:24
I prefer the original version:

http://www.allstates-flag.com//fotw/images/g/gb-altsc.gif



Flip Flop Flyer

Got you beat - but a remarkably similar story...

"The Scottish flag is the cross of St. Andrew, also known as the Saltire. It is said to be one of the oldest national flags of any country, dating back at least to the 12th century.

Tradition suggests that St. Andrew (an apostle of Jesus in the Christian religion) was put to death by the Romans in Greece by being pinned to an X-shaped cross. (Andrew considered himself unworthy to be crucified on a cross similar in shape to that of Christ’s).

One legendary story is that the Saltire originated in a battle fought between the Picts and Scots on one side against the Angles of Northumbria on the other. The battle was fought near Athelstaneford in East Lothian in 832AD.

The night before the battle, St Andrew appeared before Angus MacFergus, King of the Picts, who had been praying to the saint to help to secure a victory. The following day, a Saltire, or x-shaped cross, (similar to the one that Saint Andrew was crucified on), appeared in the form of clouds in the sky, encouraging the Picts and Scots in their fight and causing the Northumbrians to flee the field. The white cross on the celestial blue background thus became the flag of Scotland".


http://www.irelandinformationguide.com/images/thumb/f/f6/133px-Flag_of_Scotland_Pantone300.png

A bit like this - but without the help of JetA1!

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/rab-knight/contrails.jpg

Romeo Charlie
12th Apr 2006, 22:53
Hello my lovely, what I wants to know is why this never made it to the Union Flag - is it cos we got our independance already?

http://www.request.org.uk/main/dowhat/saints/cornflag.jpg

tony draper
12th Apr 2006, 23:01
Seeing crosses in the sky before battles seems a common affliction,The Emperor Constantine and Attilla the Hun claimed the same thing, sounds a load of old bollix ter me.
:rolleyes:

effortless
12th Apr 2006, 23:02
Or maybe, unlike many of them, you don't think your country is all that great, or at least nothing of which to be proud.
Bingo Or as you chaps say- "Shack" :E

tall and tasty
12th Apr 2006, 23:10
I love to see the union Jack fly I hate seeing it on boxer shorts, hankies and anything else that demeans it.

My father used to fly a flag at his parents house only cos his dad decided his national one was not to be flown after a tiff with his government so opted to fly the other half of the family's nationality to upset the neighbours!!!.

So for me it always holds a host of family fueding stories too. But iIthink as the British nation we should show it off more on buildings etc and fly it with pride.

Gosh now I sound like a promotor for the national flag carrier in Britain to keep an airline lilt to it. (did not mean to):}

TnT

Onan the Clumsy
12th Apr 2006, 23:12
Or maybe, unlike many of them, you don't think your country is all that great, or at least nothing of which to be proud.It's not really in our make up, at least not in that manner. I think that might be more healthy too. I don't believe in patriotism and I don't believe in blindly following some group simply because I am an accidental member.

Look at the other side of patriotism. Should we follow our country if we believe it to be wrong? How many people had to address that question in 1939?

In any event, scripture tells us that pride is a sin.

rab-k
12th Apr 2006, 23:31
Never mind Drapes - I guess old Athelstane either didn't pray or didn't look up!:E

Happy birthday flag! (205th year in its current form anyway)

http://vvbcc.homestead.com/files/waving_uk_flag.gif

Romeo

Bad news I'm afraid - despite its special constitutional position the Duchy of Cornwall, like the Principality of Wales, is already included in the Union Flag as being part and parcel of the Kingdom of England. Therefore you ARE included in the Union Flag as:

http://www.lholmes.fsnet.co.uk/images/england%20flag.gif

Buster Hyman
12th Apr 2006, 23:39
"...Hanging on in quiet desperation, is the English way..."

Its in our make up too. Don't need to walk the streets proclaiming our loyalty to our country, when our country needs us, we're there. When our friends need us, where there even quicker.

Its just one of the many traits that have filtered down to the Antipodes...I love my country & my flag, and if you don't see me waving it every morning & night, then mistake it for antipathy at your own risk.

Patriotism by stealth....:cool:

djk
12th Apr 2006, 23:46
"...Hanging on in quiet desperation, is the English way..."
Its in our make up too. Don't need to walk the streets proclaiming our loyalty to our country, when our country needs us, we're there. When our friends need us, where there even quicker.
Its just one of the many traits that have filtered down to the Antipodes...I love my country & my flag, and if you don't see me waving it every morning & night, then mistake it for antipathy at your own risk.
Patriotism by stealth....:cool:

".. patriotism is the last refuge, to which a scoundrel clings" - Bob Dylan

tony draper
12th Apr 2006, 23:58
Ah well if some whinney voiced feckin folk singer says it,it must be true then.
:rolleyes:

Buster Hyman
13th Apr 2006, 03:47
I hope Samuel Johnson doesn't mind being misquoted by Dylan.:rolleyes:

Solid Rust Twotter
13th Apr 2006, 07:06
One has a deep and abiding hatred for all politicians. Those who hide behind nationalism are the worst of the lot. One would have great difficulty in finding a political party using the word "national" in their name that are not a bunch of filthy, lying, thieving, power mad scoundrels.

Waving the flag while screwing the country is but one symptom of this malady...:(

obgraham
13th Apr 2006, 07:26
There's nothing artificial about according your flag the respect it deserves. It's simply a symbol. Less of them on jockey shorts and punkrockers shirts, please. A few more of them occasionally flying over the graves of the many thousands of your countrymen who wound up buried at home and abroad so that you all could live the easy life.

B Fraser
13th Apr 2006, 07:37
If a principality is administered by a prince, who administers a country :confused:

Solid Rust Twotter
13th Apr 2006, 08:03
Respect - Yes

Sycophantic sentimental drivel designed to whip up the masses - No


Any flag waving should be done by those who fought to protect what it symbolises, ie soldiers. Politicians should keep their grubby paws away from those things.

Navajo8686
13th Apr 2006, 08:41
How odd - only a couple of days ago I was looking at a photo which included the Australian and New Zealand flags and was wondering why they still keep the Union Flag element on their designs. I'm surprised in this 'modern' age that they would still want to.

As an aside I shall be flying my little St. George's Cross on my car for the World Cup because (a) it is the flag of England, (b) I am English and support England and (c) believe that England is a country which should be recognised and respected (which is why I always fill in surveys and forms as 'English' - if necessary adding it into the other box).

Bring back respect for the flag!

effortless
13th Apr 2006, 09:04
If a principality is administered by a prince, who administers a country :confused:

George W. Bush.

nutcracker43
13th Apr 2006, 10:00
Effortless

Cheap shot, not funny.

NC43

nutcracker43
13th Apr 2006, 10:09
djk

Actually djk, I believe Samuel Johnson said it first...Bob Dylan merely plagiarised it.

NC43

effortless
13th Apr 2006, 10:40
Effortless
Cheap shot, not funny.
NC43

Yeah, sorry, smack handy. But then, have you never seen a can and kicked it?:O

BlueWolf
13th Apr 2006, 13:17
Navajo

It's nothing to do with modern-ness or old-fashioned-ness, or nationalism or republicanism, or who thinks what about that and why should we give a fat rat's what they think anyway, or independence or self-determination or history or the Empire or anything else.

Believe it or not, it's because we like being British.

The whole being white, speaking English, having a share of the Queen, drinking tea, having a better and more bizzare sense of humour than the Germans/Yanks/Japs/Continentals/Anyone else, being able to watch Coro Street without apologising to anyone, getting drunk and obnoxious while appreciating sports, etc etc etc, is, overall, quite comfortable, y'know?
:ok: ;)

Buster Hyman
13th Apr 2006, 14:53
If anyone has ever wondered about the value of the Tasman Sea....see above!


:} :ouch: :suspect:


;)

tug3
13th Apr 2006, 20:42
Given the first Union Flag was created to signify the union of the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England, (Including the Duchy of Cornwall and Principality of Wales, as mentioned earlier), the original design(s) make sense:

http://www.nava.org/Flag%20Information/articles/union/union_2.jpg and as pointed out http://www.nava.org/Flag%20Information/articles/union/union_1.jpg

Also, when the Kingdom of Ireland was added to the Union in 1801, the flag was altered to include the Cross of St Patrick to give us:

http://www.nava.org/Flag%20Information/articles/union/union_4.jpg
which again is a sensible means of incorporating the flags of three Kingdoms into one design.

How was it then that when the Kingdom of Ireland disolved in 1921 into the Irish Free State and the British Province of Northern Ireland, the Cross of St Patrick, the symbol of the Kingdom of Ireland, was not removed from the Union Flag?

The Cross of St Patrick does not represent Northern Ireland and is not really recognised by anyone on the entire island of Ireland as being associated with anything other than a Kingdom which has not existed for 85 years.

Anyone care to suggest a reason?

Rgds
T3

frostbite
13th Apr 2006, 21:15
" Anyone care to suggest a reason?"

The committee are still debating?




btw, interesting post, thanks.

Farmer 1
13th Apr 2006, 21:32
Does anyone know why Wales does not get a mention?

click
13th Apr 2006, 21:54
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v651/pushmonkey37320/p_o_flag.gif
Meanwhile, on the other side of the Atlantic....:ok:

The Desert Ferret
13th Apr 2006, 22:03
Does anyone know why Wales does not get a mention?

No - who cares? Nobody from outside Wales wants anything to do with any emblem, flag, motif or whatever that links them with the Welsh - not even the other Celts.

rab-k
13th Apr 2006, 22:15
Farmer1

Wales, having been legally annexed in 1535, is included as the sole Principality falling within the Realm of the Kingdom of England, which is itself, of course, included.:)

Another anomaly that remains, simliar in vein to the St Partick's Cross, is the retention of the Harp of Ireland in the Royal Coat of Arms. :confused:

TDFerret, BTW, this "Celt", albeit with a healthy sprinkle of Anglo-Norse, rejects your assertion completely. Try speaking for yourself in future!

BlueWolf
14th Apr 2006, 02:04
....so why haven't you guys changed yours then Buster? ;) I mean, that cartoon boxing kangaroo thing you have, well, it's just so much more....um....appropriate isn't it?

Agree entirely on the value of the moat ;) :ok:

Farmer 1
14th Apr 2006, 09:06
rab-k,

Thanks for that - too busy/idle to do the research myself.

Oh, and hear, hear.

Farmer.

nutcracker43
14th Apr 2006, 10:00
Can't download it actually, but see the flag of Hawaii

effortless
14th Apr 2006, 10:02
Can't download it actually, but see the flag of Hawaii

http://www.50states.com/flag/image/nunst016.gif

Quite nice and jolly sensible.;)

Buster Hyman
14th Apr 2006, 14:14
Oh BlueWolf, I'm sure some yuppie will design a modern flag that reflects our society and gets in touch with the feminine side of our individual psychie...(BS)...I doubt that the Boxing Kangaroo will get up because...as a caring society that fosters the notion of the independant free will of all who come to live in our fair land without any form of negative vibes...we cannot give the impression that we would say a harsh word, let alone box!

In the mean time, I'll stick with a flag that represents, in part, our history, our location, and how our States & Territories are made up. It'll do for now.:ok:

rab-k
14th Apr 2006, 17:48
Was bored so checked out a few sites in order to come up with a Union Flag family tree. Also agree that continued use of Cross of St Patrick is a bit odd, so added a revised version at the end. Enjoy!

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/rab-knight/Flags.jpg

Unwell_Raptor
14th Apr 2006, 18:04
I wonder what it would look like if British Airways' design people had been around in 1801?

rab-k
15th Apr 2006, 03:24
Raptor man

Hows 'bout this effort (not mine I hasten to add!)

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f105/rab-knight/union_5.jpg

:eek: :eek: :eek:

727gm
15th Apr 2006, 05:06
http://www.50states.com/flag/image/nunst016.gif

Quite nice and jolly sensible.;) Particularly sensible as King Kamehameha and advisors correctly perceived that the two biggest threats to Hawaiian independence were the British Empire and the United States. The flag is a combination of the Union flag and the Glory (? i think) flag that was often flown by American ships before the Stars-n-Stripes came into wide use, as a way of playing off influence of one against the other. As it turns out, American businessmen in connivance with secret help of elements of the US Gov't overthrew the Kingdom. The so-called Republic kept the flag, waiting for a US adminstration change, then the Territory of kept it, then it was again kept at Statehood in 1959. I grew up with it, and it's MY flag.

tony draper
15th Apr 2006, 09:17
The American version of the Union Jack was callled the Grand Union Flag,(they don't like talking about it :E ) it had the Union flag in the top left hand corner in the manner of that Hawiian flag.
A little known snippet,Admilral John Paul Jones scorge of the seaside towns in Cumbria refused to fly the new American Flag and continued to fly the Grand Union Flag on his ship, it wouldn't have saved him had we nabbed him, he wudda still danced the hemp hornpipe at execution dock.
:rolleyes:

rab-k
15th Apr 2006, 10:21
Dear Drapes - Allow me to post an image of that to which you refer:

http://jas-townsend.com/images/large/fl-205.jpg

"Admiral John Paul Jones scorge of the seaside towns in Cumbria" - Another Scotsman forced to find work abroad:E

tony draper
15th Apr 2006, 10:38
Think he finished up working for the Tzarina of Russia(her who had a thing for horses?)she got fed up with him as did every body else who gave him a job, even the French,and they like furriner who are willing to fight forrem he finished up forgoten without a pot to piss in or a friend in the world eventually ending up buried in French Boot Hill and then they built a housing estate over him,only when President Roosevelt took a interst in him did he become a hero of the American rebelion,they dug him up and shipped him back to the colonies,well if yer int got much in the way of history or hero's yer have to make the best of it int yer.
:rolleyes:

rab-k
16th Apr 2006, 11:37
if yer int got much in the way of history A bit harsh Herr Draper.

By the time the Europeans reached N.America it was inhabited by perhaps 2 million people, grouped into 100s of tribes, whose history can only really be traced through archaeological means. As this thread mentions 400 years and neither the UK nor American colonies existed in 1600, I'll start there:
In 1603, James VI, King of Scots, united the Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of Scotland as King James I (of England) & VI (of Scots), to create a United Kingdom of Great Britain. (The Union Flags marking this event being used from 1606). In 1607, only 4 years later, the first colony at Jamestown, (named after the King), was established in 'South Virginia'. Therefore, only 4 years separate the establishment of a monarchy ruling a United Kingdom of Great Britain and the establishment of the Jamestown colony.
In 1707, the Act of Union, (1706), united the Parliament of England and the Scots Parliament to create a unified state called the United Kingdom of Great Britain. In 1776, only 69 years later, the American colonies declared their independence and the defeated British were forced to accept it in 1783. So again, only 76 years separate the formal creation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and the United States of America.
In 1801, the Act of Union, (1800), united the Kingdoms and Parliaments of Great Britain and Ireland to create a unified state called the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Ireland. In 1921, the Government of Ireland Act, (1920), created the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland. In 1959, only 38 years later, the USA admitted Alaska and Hawaii to the Union. Once again, only 38 years separate the formal creation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland and the United States of America as seen today.My point is, to say that the US "int got much in the way of history" could be easily likened to saying that the UK also "int got much in the way of history" as their major historical events are in such close proximity. I'm sure you would be the first to counter such a sweeping statement!

Boston is a great place for a holiday by BTW, :ok:

tony draper
16th Apr 2006, 12:59
One agrees Rab K, as one is fond of telling American yoofs on another website when they drone on about European history being steeped in blood,i t is also their history, they do not isolate themselves from thier European history just because great grandad took a imigrant ship westward.
:rolleyes:

rab-k
16th Apr 2006, 14:13
Indeed! A fact often overlooked by citizens of the US.

My most amusing experience of this mostly unintentional ignorance was while in the US with an American colleague, (my boss at the time who was called MacCartney and of Scottish ancestry "on Granpappy's side"), who argued the toss with me, (the Scot!), over how to pronounce "Edinburgh"!

It took a few minutes in the company of Encyclopedia Britannica to convince him that "Edin-burg" was a non-starter. But at least he was able to put a hand on such a publication.

It did however bring home to me the difficulty Americans face in learning about other countries, including their, (for the most part), European countries of origin, given the size and diversity of the country they now call home.

It is all most of them can do to remember the 50 States and State Capitols, never mind learn about the countries, peoples and cultures beyond their borders. So I do have a degree of sympathy.

(Even on the occasion when being asked where I was from and replying Scotland, being met with "Is that the island between England and Greenland?" :=)

But now 'tis I who is guilty of making sweeping statements.:)

tug3
16th Apr 2006, 19:09
That's it - I give up.

Can't find any explanation as to why the Cross of St Patrick persists as part of the Union Flag.

The Flag Institute states that "The independence in 1921 of the southern part of Ireland as the Irish Free State did not result in any change to the Union Flag", but gives no reason why:

http://www.flaginstitute.org/fiunionflag.htm

One thing that surprised me is that the Union Flag is not the country's flag but a Royal Flag. Perhaps this, together with the Harp of Ireland being retained in the Royal Coat of Arms, is down to our Royals not wishing to accept the loss of the Kingdom of Ireland? Can't seem to find out either way.

Another interesting fact is that if self rule returns to Northern Ireland they will be getting a new flag, so goodbye to:

http://www.irelandinformationguide.com/images/thumb/c/cd/300px-Northern_Ireland_flag.gif

and hello to something else to argue about!

Good site for all UK flags:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_flags

Rgds
T3

corsair
17th Apr 2006, 15:47
This maybe?:

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/images/symbols/udaflag2.gif

This was a mooted independance flag for Northern Ireland.

I imagine the the cross of Saint Patrick is kept because of course part of Ireland is still after all part of the UK. Imagine how upset the Unionists would be if it was removed. They would soon be raising the one above and declaring UDI.

corsair
17th Apr 2006, 15:48
This is the other version of the Ulster flag:

http://www.vexilla-mundi.com/ulster_flag.gif

This the the province of Ulster flag (nine counties) as opposed to the Northern Ireland flag (six counties).

rab-k
17th Apr 2006, 18:37
Since the imposition of Direct Rule in 1973, the Union Flag has been the only 'official' flag for N.Ireland, despite the former 'Government of Northern Ireland' or 'Ulster - 6 Counties' flag appearing at sporting occasions such as the Commonwealth Games.

I guess if the Northern Ireland Executive is to be reconvened before the deadline set by the UK and RoI Governments, and if I were a betting man, I'd recon the Cross of Saint Patrick would be a front runner for both the Executive and Province of Northern Ireland's official flag.

After all, it has supporters and opponents on both sides of the community, so can be said to be loved and hated equally by all!

The recently formed Police Service of Northern Ireland has had it incorporated into its Badge, which I think is the first example of an 'official' use of the St Patrick's Cross in recent years. So perhaps this is an indication of things to come.

http://www.vincentpeters.nl/triskelle/images/img_psnibadge.gif

'Paddy's Blanket' may be due to make a comeback after all!

PS (Edit) Corsair - The Independent Northern Ireland Flag breaks one of the heraldic taboos where colours are concerned as red and blue should never touch. This is the reason there is a white border that separates the red from both Saint George's Cross and Saint Patrick's Cross from the blue of Saint Andrew's Cross on the Union Flag. Just isn't done old boy! http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/grinser/grinning-smiley-003.gif (http://www.pprune.org/forums/%5Bimg%5Dhttp://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/grinser/grinning-smiley-003.gif%5B/img%5D)

tony draper
17th Apr 2006, 18:44
Well why not, Saint Patrick was after all a Englishman.
:E

G-CPTN
17th Apr 2006, 18:45
Why don't they just make-up their minds?
Do they want to be British, or Irish?
Surely not an impossible question (and hardly worth fighting over, I'd have thought). :E

frostbite
17th Apr 2006, 21:32
To my simple mind - most want to be Irish, but Eire doesn't want them.

rab-k
17th Apr 2006, 22:30
St Patrick is said to have come from, amongst other places:


Kilpatrick, near Dumbarton, Scotland.
near to Glastonbury, England.
Monmouthshire, England.
Tours, France.
Wales. His 'confession' states he was born in Bannavem, Taberniae, but nobody knows for sure where that was.

He was however, a Britannic Celt, raised by a Roman Catholic, and born sometime between 373 and 395 AD.

Buster Hyman
17th Apr 2006, 23:06
I thought he came from Milton Keynes...:confused:

tony draper
18th Apr 2006, 00:00
Incidently whilst we are on the subject, said St Patrick never banished any snakes from Ireland,there were no snakes in Ireland not never not no how.,they didn't have time to get there when the ice sheet melted.
:rolleyes:

G-CPTN
18th Apr 2006, 00:08
,there were no snakes in Ireland not never not no how.,they didn't have time to get there when the ice sheet melted.
:rolleyes:
So where did the politicians come from?

tony draper
18th Apr 2006, 00:53
Shame on you Mr C-G, yer Snake is the end product of hundreds of millions of years of evolution,they have their place in nature,and should be allowed to wriggle the Earth in peace ,whereas yer politician isn't and should be killed at every opportunity.
:rolleyes:

Blacksheep
18th Apr 2006, 09:26
My point is, to say that the US "int got much in the way of history" could be easily likened to saying that the UK also "int got much in the way of history" as their major historical events are in such close proximity. I'm sure you would be the first to counter such a sweeping statement!S'funny, but St Mary's on The Green in Norton on Tees where half of my ancestors lie dates back to 983CE. There was a wooden church there before that, but in Norton most folk are English not Ukogbanilish.

There was a venerable monk called Bede working near Draper Towers back in those days too, so even the Geordies have a bit of history - though one wonders how a monk managed to catch venerable disease. I suppose being a Geordie had something to do with it...

Boston is a great place for a holiday by BTWTrue, but they make a rotten cup of tea...

tony draper
18th Apr 2006, 09:39
Yeh and how come The Venerable Bede wasn't made a Saint huh? its because he was a Geordie and didn't speak posh init, discrimination I calls it,feckin left footers.
:suspect:

Blacksheep
18th Apr 2006, 10:12
They wrote the way they spoke in those days. I found it fascinating that although his illuminated bible is written in Latin, its done with a Geordie accent. As for them Americans, their first president was a Geordie lad, so I suppose the Venerable Bede is part of their history too.

tony draper
18th Apr 2006, 10:33
Indeed,they used to name themselves after the villages they hailed from in those days,the Village of Washington still exists and is somewhat larger now,just as well he wasn't born in Cockfosters.
He had wooden false teeth yer know.
:cool:

rab-k
18th Apr 2006, 16:13
Blacksheep -

Agreed, the tea tends to taste a bit salty, but a drop of amber nectar c/o Samuel Adams tends to go down a tad better.

I was of course comparing the US to the UK in my earlier post, and not the US to England, or Scotland, Ireland, Wales or any other European nation, for obvious reasons which I believe I outlined.

I saw no point in getting into the distant, pre-European history of the continent of N.America, listing cultures such as the Pueblo people , or 'Anasazi' as they're also known, and others, who had flourishing civilisations while we, (or some of us anyway), were painting ourselves blue and taking a beating from the Roman Empire.

So, as I said previously, the creation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain as a single Kingdom with a single Monarch only pre-dates the establishing of the colony at Jamestown by 4 years. Therefore, 1600AD seemed a reasonable and natural point from which to compare the historical milestones of the UK and Colonial America/US, given that neither existed prior to it.:ok: