Loganair

[Skipness One Echo]

http://business.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=468162006
Seems Loganair is feeling unloved and taken for granted......
Hope this is false as BA has downsized enough North of the Border.

[Cutoff]

If this happens then it will not be BA downsizing, it will be Loganair relinquishing their Franchise, they pay BA to operate their aircraft in BA colours.

[HZ123]

What ever way you view this; from BA's point of view we make monies from this operation. However, whether the Highlands and Islands fit into the BA big scheme of things is questionable. Loganair enjoy a unique operation in an area posing severe conditions for some of the time, the links to the south once provided by BA are now offered by numerous airlines and maybe loganair might be better placed with there own identity.

[tristar500]

It was only a matter of time until Loganair announced it was not happy with the way the franchise with BA was being managed. Its not such a good deal for Loganair afterall. Loganair is a great airline, doing what it knows best, but not getting whats best for it in return.

To start with as Mr Grier has already stated, no one from the new BA management team at Waterside (Waterworld) has called to introduce themselves or even say Hi... How unprofessional is that.

Next you have the problem in that BA handle Loganair at EDI and GLA, who themselves (ground staff) are not exactly impressed with orders from down south. In EDI the lack of staff available to carry out their duties ie meeting and boarding flights and ramp support staff with inadequite and unreliable equipement is disgusting. The crew are forever putting in 'Service-Reports' about the poor standard of ground handling - airside, which isnt cheap!

On top of that, Loganair who have a monopoly really, should be making rakes of cash - but are they? BA will take a fee for 'Being associated with us' and once again the highly inflated handling charges, as well as the 'High' fuel costs and all other associated fees levied for using airports and airspace etc.

Now, would Loganair receive every penny of the subsidy from the Scottish Executive if they were to 'Go alone', instead of sharing most of it with BA... It couldnt be any worse. I know that Loganair did exist on their own before and it didnt work out, but that was before the Scottish Execuitve, and that was when they operated a multitude of different aircraft: Islander, JS31/41, Twin Otter, SH360, ATP, Bae146 and briefly the F27 and BAC1-11. Now things are much simpler with a fleet of Saab 340Bs (still operate the Twin Otter too).

Heres an idea! Why dont they get together with BAConnect and create a low fares outfit serving the whole of the UK - SAABs and Embraers (Possibly the RJ) which would serve all areas of the country. It would save BA from scrapping BAConnect and let BA do what they want. (T5 to the big bad world as BA dont want domestic flights anymore). It could also create a better suited domestic airline tailored to specific requirements ie Highlands and Islands and domestic UK services. Value for money and staff that really do enjoy working hard for an airline.

It has to have some sort of plausability...

[Bigscotdaddy]

This has just been another case of a Journo twisting the facts and making 2+2 equal 5.

There is no intention on the part of BA or Loganair to change the Franchise arrangement unless, when 2008 comes along, the situation warrants another appraisal.

[Phileas Fogg]

Thanks for the history lesson whilst neglecting to mention that Loganair have also previously operated types including Shorts Skyvan, SD330, EMB110, Trislander and DHC7!

[Meeb]

Heres and idea! Why dont they get together with BAConnect and create a low fares outfit serving the whole of the UK - SAABs and Embraers (Possibly the RJ) which would serve all areas of the country.

... and call it... wait... British Regional... :eek:

If the article does indeed originate from Yogie, then SG has something up his sleeve... :E

As for them having a monopoly, yes they do, most routes would not survive with competition, but some competition is needed, then Yogie would suffer...

[Oshkosh George]

In this article,there seems to a large input from Scott Grier,so I would say there's a large possibility that the franchise is nearing it's end.

http://business.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=468162006

[Cyrano]

Surely the obvious explanation is that Loganair wants to establish a negotiating position before the serious talks about the franchise roll around? If BA feels that Loganair has no alternative to a continuation of the franchise, you can be sure they'll take advantage of that - increase the % of revenue that the franchise fee represents, limit the possible destinations Loganair can serve just in case BaCon wants to go there one day, and so on. So Loganair's just signalling that they do have an alternative (allegedly :hmm: ), to keep BA honest.

Not sure what form that alternative might take. A merger with bmi regional? :\

Let's face it, in Loganair's present form, while their services are very important for connectivity in Scotland, they don't really provide a key piece of the strategic jigsaw for Skyteam or Star Alliance (or even BA, come to that...)

[Bigscotdaddy]

Lots of very interesting "ifs and buts" being posted here, but it's all about fiction.

As I posted before - this is just journalistic licence, the franchise works well for both sides and no reason to assume that will not continue to be the case.

[tristar500]

Thanks for the history lesson whilst neglecting to mention that Loganair have also previously operated types including Shorts Skyvan, SD330, EMB110, Trislander and DHC7!

Point taken, but you also forgot to metion the Beech 18...

[Oshkosh George]

Lots of very interesting "ifs and buts" being posted here, but it's all about fiction.
As I posted before - this is just journalistic licence, the franchise works well for both sides and no reason to assume that will not continue to be the case.

I don't know how you can say that when there are quotes from the man himself in that article I linked to.

It's perhaps all posturing to get a better deal,but I don't think so.

[Bigscotdaddy]

Oshkosh George

I know the newspaper article makes it look like SG was imlying a possible franchise re-negotiation, but I have it on good authority that the subject matter was supposed to be something else and that a question was slipped in about franchises, with the reply being reported entirely out of context, as reporters always do!

That's what I heard - you can believe it or you can accept as gospel what you read in the press. Up to you.

[airhumberside]

There are to be somemajor Loganair changes in Scotland, including:

All flights to Wick dropped
GLA-ORK/DUB/INV dropped
Extra non stop EDI-Sumburgh flight on weekdays
Day return options from Sumburgh to Kirkwall and Inverness

[Sean Dillon]

I would seriously check your facts mate! Whats been typed above is utter rubbish!

[airhumberside]

My sources are the BA website and The Shetland News Website

[WOWBOY]

I would seriously check your facts mate! Whats been typed above is utter rubbish!

airhumberside is correct all the above information is correct!!

Hopefully someone will takeover the GLA-ORK service maybe Aer Arann?

[airhumberside]

If Aer Arran took the route over, I would expect them to use PIK, their current Glasgow area airport

[WOWBOY]

Yeah!
PIK would be the airport they would fly to if they took the route over.

As to the GLA-DUB/INV would these service's be taken over ? I doubt DUB will be seeing as EI are alreday on theis route. Easten airways would be the ideal operator for GLA-INV and the Wick - Sumburgh flights!

[ATIS31]

Loganair flights to Wick are not Axed only Wick - Sumburgh Routes.
Also Kirkwall - Wick Airlink restored and now Increased flights between Wick
and Edinburgh. Also looks like some Inverness - Edinburgh Flights dropped.

[airhumberside]

Heres the full list of cuts from the BA website

Daily flights cancelled with effect from 28 May 2006
BA8890 Orkney to Inverness
BA8890 Inverness to Edinburgh
BA8899 Edinburgh to Inverness
BA8899 Inverness to Orkney
BA8911 Glasgow to Inverness
Customers may rebook on Edinburgh to Inverness flights
BA8918 Inverness to Glasgow
Customers may rebook on Inverness to Edinburgh flights

Daily flights cancelled with effect from 29 May 2006
BA8970 Dublin to Glasgow
BA8975 Glasgow to Dublin

Weekday flights cancelled with effect from 29 May 2006
BA8893 Edinburgh to Wick
BA8893 Wick to Sumburgh
BA8894 Sumburgh to Wick
BA8894 Sumburgh to Edinburgh

Sunday flights cancelled with effect from 29 May 2006
BA8955 Inverness to Stornaway

Saturday flights cancelled with effect from 03 June 2006
BA8954 Stornaway to Inverness
BA8895 Edinburgh to Orkney
BA8896 Orkney to Edinburgh

Daily flights cancelled with effect from 01 October 2006
BA8973 Glasgow to Cork
BA8974 Cork to Glasgow

[MarkD]

The BA pullout from Ireland continues... took ORK-GLA twice, a handy route compared to the alternatives.

[manx crab]

On the positive side, they are restarting the EDI-IOM service from 29th May

[Skipness One Echo]

DUB-GLA was in effect a pseudo-positioning flight and was not a serious competitor to Ryanair of Aer Lingus.

[dontpickit]

Item on the Shetland online news service:

http://www.shetland-news.co.uk/pages/news%20stories/07_2006/isles_bid_loganair_fond_farewell.htm

[EIDW RJ85]

Not forgetting they also lost the dub-noc route at the beginning of may to Aer Arran. Thats also when they dropped the Dub-Gla routing. The Dub-Ldy routes have poor loads on them as well some days with just 7 - 10 pax on board??

[cuthere]

Latest CAA stats for June give 2995 pax using the DUB-LDY route, an increase of 17% on last June, so it's not doing all that bad. And isn't it subsidised anyway?

[DB6]

EIDW 747, not lost, gave.

[db7]

Aer Arran is operating the NOC-DUB route for Loganair - it is a complex arrangement which releases a Saab for Islands - Mainland services.

The LDY-DUB is a PSO route and on the am LDY - DUB and pm DUB-LDY has good loads ( many civil servants from Donegal going to DUB for day).

Recently Loganair loads have been greater both in % terms and abolute numbers from NI than BACON routes!

[discountinvestigator]

Let's face it, in Loganair's present form, while their services are very important for connectivity in Scotland, they don't really provide a key piece of the strategic jigsaw for Skyteam or Star Alliance (or even BA, come to that...)

Well, I have only ever redeemed any of the last 5 million frequent flyer miles on a flight from Glasgow to Barra, and last year, 19 of oneworld's most frequent users went there for a party. So, whilst some routes are not the most key elements, they might just be of interest to those who actually pay your salaries. I have also owned a Shetland based business, and the flights are very significant to the local community. The 1W link is important to businesses but not that many tourists.

[Eff Oh]

So what are they gonna go for then?

[Manston Airport]

What about the Saab 340 sister aircraft the Saab 2000?

James

[Tubbs]

What is the source of this quote? I reckon the ATR 42/72 would be more likely or Fokker 50, although these aircraft don't cope as well as the Saab with some of the arse-clenching crosswinds we experience in the Islands

[noflybywire]

The F50 is a superb Aircraft it's as hard as nails and a real pilots aeroplane and IMHO miles!!!! better then the ATR series. The quote 'The most successful turbo-prop' must be the F27 which is again! IMO the Turbo-prop 'DC3',

[Strepsils]

Fears that the Saab aircraft may be coming to the end of its lifespan had been raised after two planes were grounded in Orkney last weekend

:} :} :} :p :p :D :D :E

Oh man, that's funny. Two tech aircraft raised concerns?! If that were the case, concerns would have been raised a LONG time ago, believe me!

[noflybywire]

Having flown the ATR72 it's brilliant fun in a strong crosswind but sadly I didn't hear many of the pax laughing.PMSL,

[Cyrano]

The F50 is a superb Aircraft it's as hard as nails and a real pilots aeroplane and IMHO miles!!!! better then the ATR series. The quote 'The most successful turbo-prop' must be the F27 which is again! IMO the Turbo-prop 'DC3',
Read the original quote again. It seems clear to me that Scott Grier's comment about "the most successful turboprop" refers to the Saab 340 (yes, poetic licence, I know) rather than being some sort of hint about what type they'll choose. He appears more concerned about squashing ignorant journalistic speculation about "old", "unreliable" aircraft following (gasp!) two tech aircraft. :ooh: I assume the SF340 replacement decision whenever it comes will be economics-driven rather than favourite-plane-driven...

[BHDflyer]

what about BA Connects Dash 8?:hmm:

[dontpickit]

He appears more concerned about squashing ignorant journalistic speculation about "old", "unreliable" aircraft following (gasp!) two tech aircraft.

Absolutely on the ball Cyrano. Just read the print version - the usual, clueless journalist quoting disgruntled pax.

[DB6]

From www.orcadian.co.uk (http://www.orcadian.co.uk)

Loganair plan to replace Saab 340 aircraft
A number of Loganair’s Saab aircraft are to be replaced with larger 50-seat aircraft.
The increased frequency of flights, coupled with the air discount scheme, has seen passenger numbers soar to a level that warrants bigger planes, according to the airline’s chairman, Scott Grier.
Fears that the Saab aircraft may be coming to the end of its lifespan had been raised after two planes were grounded in Orkney last weekend.
But Mr Grier said: “We will be looking to change in due course - but not because of unserviceability. They are absolutely reliable. It is one of the most successful, if not the most successful, turbo prop aircraft.”
Full story in this week's The Orcadian

[pipertommy]

Hi,i take it that this will be the saab 2000?

[silverknapper]

A logical assumption to make but not necessarily.The 2000 is an expensive airplane to run, not to mention its poor reliability record. As ecj says,contrary to popular belief it is a completely different type rating to the 340, with no commonality at all. There aren't all that many about, I think they only built 60 odd. And Eastern may be snapping up the remaining ones. In saying that the airplane is a beast, but perhaps more suited to longer sectors where that 380 knots can really be exploited.
Would have thought ATR maybe better. Cheap to run, reliable but best of all if routes get even busier crews are dual rated on the 72.
Mind you the fokker did well on the routes with denim - you never know!

[Say again s l o w l y]

Nah, it'll be the ATP back again!:eek:

[rawmac]

If it's in The Orcadian 'newspaper' I'd treat it with a very large pinch of salt.

[dontpickit]

rawmac

See my post, #40 on page 2!

[dontpickit]

Quote:

'There was a recent visit by a Saab 2000 to Glasgow , the a/c was there on behalf of Saab and was on show to Loganair management !'



From a HIAL Airports forum. Rumour or fact?

Nothing on the Logan press release pages (yet).

[Strepsils]

Dontpickit - Unless it's been out in the last day or two, by "recent" they mean last year before the most recent three 340's were bought!

Is that livery for real?!

[Pickled Props]

Ya! The big SAAB was over last year I think it was, just for a look see. Remember it being shoved into the hanger for the day. I think SAAB were / are eager to give the surplus a/c homes and since Eastern are happily receiving machines Loganair will be left alone after the lukewarm reception.
It's a very different animal altogether besides they are just as better off getting a newer type in.

ATR were also coming up to say hello at the same time until LC revealed they weren't interested in commitment to buy/lease yet.

The ATR 42 is the best bet followed by the Dash 8 although they'll probably opt for older versions rather than the shiney -500 or Q300's. The oldest 340 is coming up to 20 years old now with the others well through middle age considering they've only had SAABs for 7 years the next type can't really be one of the extinct types mentioned i.e. SAAB 2000 / Fokker 50 etc. The choice is limited.

2008 is the year in which we'll find out I reckon with franchise's not to be renewed and the Otter PSO's not to renew too!!

PP

[tristar500]

From whats been happening over the past few days at Birdseed Airways, I really do think that Loganair will be a 'stand-a-lone' operator in the very near future.

WHY? Reason being is that BA mainline are probably (to be decided upon within a few weeks) going to farm out all ground handling operations at the regional UK airports as has been done round Europe and the longhaul network recently. At present Loganair get a very very good price for handling - been told, true or false, that it costs them around £18.00 per aircraft turnaround at EDI. For this pocketmoney fee, they get all checkin facilities, boarding facilities, ticketdesk, loaders, baggage office, dispatch and the use of the execlounge (gold and silver card holders only). Not only that but when Loganair get delays through weather, technical or crewing, BA deals with the passengers taking groundstaff away from other flights...

Now, as is common knowledge there is no love lost between Willie Walsh and the Loganair team. It wouldnt bother Willie Walsh one bit, if Loganair came along tomorrow and said they were off. Beleive me. It has been noted that WW hates franchises and why would Scott Grier go public some months ago in a newspaper saying that he was most dissapointed that WW had not even bothered to pick up the phone and introduce himself! Lets get real here. Loganair couldnt afford to pay any more to BA for handling, and that being the case, could they go it alone? Maybe a merger with another carrier - Scotairways or bmi regional)?

At the time of the franchise deal, it was good for BA and good for Loganair. BA got Brand expansion, recognition and publicity and Loganair got some much needed investment in terms of routes, passengers and a fixed-term deal to keep them going. Now things have changed, as management have come and go. BA seems to beleive that T5 at LHR is the 'be-all and end-all' and thats it. WW doesnt care how you get there, just get to LHR T5 and BA will be happy to take you around the world...

[tallaonehotel]

What is going on at Loganair?.
Been on the Flight website looking for jobs and found that most of the management have left.
Has there been a falling out?, or something more sinister?.

[MarkD]

Willie hates anything smaller than 32x. He got rid of props and RJs at EI and the same is happening at BA. Logiebear should be having a conversation with other parties ASAP.

[tallaonehotel]

If the jungle drums are correct Mr French was seen with Mr Grier a few days ago.......
I do hope whatever happens that it all works out, I'm one of BACON's people wondering if I'll be employed after Christmas.

[virginblue]

While Flybe's enlarged operations out of GLA and EDI certainly would be attractive from a network point of view, I simply do not see the benefit of franchising the Flybe brand as their product does not allow to make connections - I would think that is what all the BA franchising is about: Connections from the Highlands and Islands to south of the border. For just the local market, branding is quite a waste of money.

[waaf]

Given that Loganair's CEO and Director of Engineering have 'resigned' in the last week there is obviously something in the offing. Why would Flybe want to buy out Loganair, all they have to do is provide competition on present routes and undercut present £250+ fares to wipe them off the map, c'est la vie..........................

[President Bush]

:} Hey waaf, I'm impressed,I thought "you all spoke Gaelic up there th..................":ok:

[DB6]

Well the pilots have been earning their pay (those that haven't split, anyway) so let's hope the management can earn theirs now.
Rumours (but don't quote me :} ) are of an announcement on Thursday, we shall see.....

[DB6]

No idea, purely mentioned on a nightstop by someone who may or may not have a scooby. I thought I would just contribute to the general air of anticipation in a scurrilous manner :E . I don't spend enough time in the office to have any insider stuff. Thankfully. Hope it all goes well though, Loganair's good fun.

[tristar500]

Maybe it takes a bit of competition on the Scottish network for anyone really to 'wake up and smell the coffee'... Maybe Loganair with the BA franchise deal had it good. How could it fail with BA slapped all over Loganair aircraft, timetables and website. Connecting passengers only had ONE choice - LOGANAIR - connecting from the major Scottish Airports to the Highlands and Islands. Times have changed and money is tighter now with all thats going on at BA. Franchise deals are despised by WW at Waterworld, thats no secret. flybe are expanding merrily and have a better-suited style of management and route structure than Bully Boy BA. Massive Eurpoean coverage now with flybe and on the domestic front, almost every major airport covered. Loganair would make the perfect partner and that would even let them expand their network, leaving flybe to do the longer range and slightly higher density routes. Loganair have the expertise and staff in the Highlands and Islands and thats essential, giving confidence to the communities up there, the passengers and the Scottish Executive. Maybe the SAAB 340 isnt the best aircraft to operate but it does the job. Newer and slightly larger aircraft such as the Dash 8-300 and ATR models would make an improvement, but without a merger or a franchise deal with another carrier, the cost of renewing the ageing SAAB fleet is a very tall order for Loganair alone - even with the Scottish Execs financial assistance to supply air travel to remote regions of Scotland.

[Skipness One Echo]

TriStar I doubt that a Loganair / FlyBe tie up is anything more than a forced and desperate move. It makes little sense, the feed from Stornoway to Exeter would be.......shall we say small and as for European coverage, that's a daft idea in the 21st century to do it in a DHC8 from as far north as Scotland. I'll stick to getting their at speed thanks. The speed of the Q400 is impressive but not so much across the North Sea......

[tristar500]

No doubt of limited demand from SYY-EXT. It would be just as it is now........ Think about it. Instead of connecting to BA, in say EDI, the passengers would connect to flybe. Loganair may even introduce longer sector flights for example to hubs such as BHX or MAN and then connect the passengers on. Why not?

As it stands now, flybe have inherrited EDI-CDG and EDI-HAM. During the summer flybe operated EDI-JER on the Dash 8-400. Albeit a charter flight it is still a considerable distance. Wideroe orperate the Dash 8-1/2/3 from Edinburgh to Norway - over the North Sea. Speed isnt always the deciding factor when scheduling flights and pricing tickets... Economics prevail my friend.

[Flightrider]

CEO must be about due for retirement.

Watch out for some incoming refugees from BA Connect management team.

[tristar500]

Excellent point :D

I hear Air Tahiti are looking for crew!

[100above]

Just read on-line about Loganair's record £2.2 million profit ! Whatever the reasoning behind the departure of the CEO, Loganair certainly seems to be doing better than ever. Heard rumours about flybe / Loganair tie up too, but seems to be just speculation, following on from BA Connect purchase - LC previously fed into BA Connect flights to MAN/BHX/SOU, why not feed into flybe instead, but cant see flybe or LC wanting the hassle. If Loganair or BA decide in 2008 not to extend the franchise it would make sense surely for them to do what Air Southwest have done and go it alone with on-line sales. No franchise fees to pay and no need for a big call centre like you used to need prior to the internet. Either way Loganair's big news this week wasnt doom & gloom and seems to be positive for a change !

[Airlink Scotland]

Some good ideas regarding the announcement tomorrow, but not quite correct.

There will be no tie up with flybe, but there will be a 'carve up'!

I think you will find that flybe will offload some of the BA Connect routes and aircraft/crews to Loganair.

The franchise is a non event as it is not for renewal until 2008, that is a long way away in an aviation time scale. ;)

[Skipness One Echo]

Well done Loganair, plenty of time to worry about BA going through one of it's retrenchments later! Actually the Loganair brand never really disappeared in the same way after taking up BA titles as some, say GB Airways did. It could re-emerge if necessary without the same degree of anonymity.

Just to say that as TriStar500 says "Economics rules"! Yes they do and they say that given the choice, people will take a jet over a prop every time, so flying to Europe from Scotland on the Q400 is a REALLY bad move IMHO.

[tristar500]

Some good ideas regarding the announcement tomorrow, but not quite correct.

There will be no tie up with flybe, but there will be a 'carve up'!

I think you will find that flybe will offload some of the BA Connect routes and aircraft/crews to Loganair.

The franchise is a non event as it is not for renewal until 2008, that is a long way away in an aviation time scale. ;)

Timescales eh...

Look what WW gave time-wise to BAConnect. 2 years and all they got was a matter of months. Beware of the 'little-man from accross the water' :ok:

[tristar500]

Well done Loganair, plenty of time to worry about BA going through one of it's retrenchments later! Actually the Loganair brand never really disappeared in the same way after taking up BA titles as some, say GB Airways did. It could re-emerge if necessary without the same degree of anonymity.
Just to say that as TriStar500 says "Economics rules"! Yes they do and they say that given the choice, people will take a jet over a prop every time, so flying to Europe from Scotland on the Q400 is a REALLY bad move IMHO.

Ok, your the airline executive palnning to start up. You want to fill your seats and make lots of money. You could have a Dash 8-400 with 70 seats of a Fokker 70. The efficiency and economical benefits of the prop out-weigh the Fokker... Poeples preferences are directed by whats in their wallets more often than not. Looks are not always everything...

[Skipness One Echo]

You have never flown from Scotland to Europe in a prop mate, have you? All across the cold North Sea.

You wouldn't want to. Hardly anyone does,it's not a money spinner. As a business decsion, it's' a no brainer. If it's a business heavy route, it's too far and slow in a prop and so you need a jet. If it's a leisure route, 70 seats is too small for the market and Ryanair, easyJet or Globespan would eat you alive, simply because they can with their cost base.

All you're proving is that you have a south east mind set..... Go consult a map:rolleyes:

[tristar500]

You have never flown from Scotland to Europe in a prop mate, have you? All across the cold North Sea.
You wouldn't want to. Hardly anyone does,it's not a money spinner. As a business decsion, it's' a no brainer. If it's a business heavy route, it's too far and slow in a prop and so you need a jet. If it's a leisure route, 70 seats is too small for the market and Ryanair, easyJet or Globespan would eat you alive, simply because they can with their cost base.
All you're proving is that you have a south east mind set..... Go consult a map:rolleyes:

Dont need maps... I know where Iam going! Certainly not of a SE mindset either but if you have money to burn and there are alternatives out there then slide-on pal :ok:

[tallaonehotel]

You have never flown from Scotland to Europe in a prop mate, have you? All across the cold North Sea.
You wouldn't want to. Hardly anyone does,it's not a money spinner. As a business decsion, it's' a no brainer. If it's a business heavy route, it's too far and slow in a prop and so you need a jet. If it's a leisure route, 70 seats is too small for the market and Ryanair, easyJet or Globespan would eat you alive, simply because they can with their cost base.
All you're proving is that you have a south east mind set..... Go consult a map:rolleyes:
Take it easy buddy, maybe before you go on shooting from the hip you might want to check out the economics of operating thinner business routes with a jet against a prop.
Wideroe have been doing it for years, I've done it and found it like any other flight. The Q400 has exceptional performance against a Jet, and as accountants are running the world, they will dictate what flys where.

[lemon_torte]

So is there any news on the 'Big Announcement'? When I report at 4 today will I still have a job?! :sad:

(DB6 if you're reading this thread, think Im flying with you today!)

LT

[Skipness One Echo]

Bearing in mind we are talking about Scotland here which was my whole point really :

Aberdeen still has Wideroe and SAS but is that much closer :O
There's more I know.

So central belt to Europe in a prop :

EGPF
Wideroe from Glasgow to Bergen (1997- ) in a DHC8 axed.
SAS from Glasgow to Stavanger (1992-), in a F50 axed.
DLT to Dusseldorf in a F50, ended in favour of a 737 to Frankfurt in 1992.....

EGPH
Sun Air to Billund in an ATP / Do328 twice a week



Come on EDI peeps I know there are a few more. Anyway what you can't get away from is that if you run a Dash from the south coast to the continent you can do more sectors per day than if you go all the way to EDI / GLA, and hence make more money. And in a niche market, that's what people do, and is why they are not queuing up to base Q400s in Scotland to fly to Europe. I understand that people see benefits in the operation of next gen props and that's fine if I was going to Belfast or perhaps down to Exeter but all the way to Frankfurt in a Q400 vs a quick connection at LHR means most regular flyers choose the tried and tested.
I am not denigrating props but given an A319 or a Q400 I know which I prefer. And before I get yelled at again, ( I can take it ), just list for me three prospective routes and operators from central Scotland to Europe in a prop that are in the offing.

[tallaonehotel]

Skipness One Echo

I agree with your point's but I can't see anybody operating new direct routes form Scotland to Europe because of the demographics, that counts for all operators jet or props.
Getting back to Loganair, has anyone heard of the so called announcement?

[DB6]

LT, see you at 4 :ok:. Announcement/meeting just a rumour as far as I know :E .

[AlphaCharlie]

Skipness One Echo said: "I understand that people see benefits in the operation of next gen props and that's fine if I was going to Belfast or perhaps down to Exeter but all the way to Frankfurt in a Q400 vs a quick connection at LHR means most regular flyers choose the tried and tested."

Just one question skipness: Have you ever had a quick connection at Heathrow let alone any other major UK airport? At LHR the minimum recommended time for a connection at least an hour, a lot more if you need to change terminals. Why bother with that if you can fly direct, all be it in a turboprop?

I think you will find that a certain UK Q400 operator is proving very successful at encouraging people to fly to Europe from regional airports avoiding these nonsense and hasslesome connections. And I'd rather do it in a Q400 than a Emb 145 any day!

[Skipness One Echo]

I think you will find that a certain UK Q400 operator is proving very successful at encouraging people to fly to Europe from regional airports avoiding these nonsense and hasslesome connections. And I'd rather do it in a Q400 than a Emb 145 any day!

Try lisiting the ERJ145 and Q400 routes from Scotland and you'll see what I mean. And yes I have transferred succesfully at LHR many a time.

[AlphaCharlie]

Skipness ... I wasn't shouting, just purely pointing out if the operator can find a route with sufficient demand to operator a direct flight from Scotland to Europe then they would offer it. And that a direct flight whether in a prop or not would be preferrable to many passengers to a 60min transfer at LHR.

You are right there is no one offering routes to Europe on a prop, doesn't mean it won't happen, as you said you need to balance the increased sector time and therefore reduced number of sectors that aircraft can now do in its days with the profit you can make from such routes. Wouldn't be surprised though if the Q400 did start going from Scotland to Scandinavia and near Europe direct. But who on earth knows what the game plan is.

[EI-BUD]

Interest rumours going on re BE and LC (Loganair). I can’t see Flybe having any strategic interest in the LC going forward.

I think they are talking about a transfer of some thinner routes that may suit LC better than BE. Examples include BHD/ABZ, BHD/INV, also a number of routes from Scottish airport where BE does not have a base egs include Inv and Abz. There are a number of other routes on the Flybe and Bacon network that BE would see as more fitting with Loganair. BE has stated it will have Q400 as smallest aircraft once Bacon types are phased out , hence, a number of routes would be too thin for a Q400. It is also possible that Flybe is talking to LC about selling aircraft to them. The DH8s of Bacon of example

LC made a good profit this year but despite this, I don’t think that they can compete very well. In most instances they have withdrawn against the competition. BHD/GLA, BHD/EDI are examples. The reduction in management may be an indication that the company is cutting costs to ensure that they are in the market long term

FR are opening PIK LDY in December, it will be interesting to see if LC continue the GLA/LDY route? I am not sure. The result may be an end to LC at Derry. Will Aer Arann then be contracted to fly LDY/DUB for LC? Interesting times ahead.

[db7]

LC have already cut the fares on the LDY-GLA route from the 1-12 in response to the competition.

It will be interesting to watch -

[dontpickit]

From online 'The Orcadian'

Loganair is to introduce twice-weekly flights between Orkney and Fair Isle this summer.
From May 25 until October 7, passengers can fly from Kirkwall to Fair Isle, via North Ronaldsay, on Thursday and Sundays.
Jim Cameron, chief executive of Loganair, said: “We believe the link between the two bird-watching centres of Fair Isle and North Ronaldsay will encourage eco-tourism to the islands as well as improving links between Fair Isle and Orkney.”

[waaf]

Rumour has it that new summer timetable will reveal some significant changes in Loganair services but not destinations being served or aircraft type being utilised. Apparently just more direct flights to key island destinations from EDI/GLA/ABZ. Have looked on BA timetables but cant see these, just seems to be the same as last year. If it is true then hard pushed crews may well have to work even harder....if anyone is left?

[Skipness One Echo]

Reading your previous posts WAAF you always seem to be trying to drag Loganair down. Can we assume your employment did not pan out to your expectations.......assuming you are not one of those who are still left

[ATIS31]

Does anyone know if Loganair have a Email Address for customer services
can't find anything on there website :confused:

[waaf]

Not trying to drag Loganair down at all, just trying to tell it like it may be. Loganair have stood the test of time better than many if not all UK independant operators and have supplied the rest of the industry with a steady stream of highly skilled people who have experience of some fairly harsh operating conditions. In the current climate of rapid expansion everywhere you cant blame people for leaving for a big shiny jet job its just a shame that so many who might have stayed and passed on their experience have gone when small improvements in quality of life issues might have persuaded them to stay, although I believe that may be changing. Nobody makes a fortune in the Highlands and Islands, whether they be company or employee, otherwise there would be a rush of other operators trying to poach off the limited number of passengers available, I hear Ryanair are already threatening to pull off the PIk - LDY routebecause of low pax loads, at least Loganair have stuck with providing a service on these thinner routes. Recent inovations like the Scottish Executive Air Discount Scheme and Loganair's new reduced single fares are steps in the right direction and have to be applauded as the way forward for peripheral areas where air travel is a necessity not a 99p 'here today gone tomorrow' ticket. I only hope that by continually losing so many experienced people Loganair will not find themselves making the same mistakes as have happened in the past, some with fatal consequences, you cant buy that sort of experience.

[loftustb]

.......and their new recruits are generally the cheapest option.

I mean no disrespect to those recruits.

[pipertommy]

Would that be ones willing to fund there own TR?

[exlatccatsa]

More flights ABZ-LSI this summer
Extra seats for summer flyers

LOGANAIR has increased the number of flights from Shetland to Aberdeen so that during the summer months more than 10,000 seats will be available for passengers.

Announcing its summer schedule, the airline said yesterday (Friday) that due to the addition of an extra flight four days a week, the total number of flights leaving Shetland for Aberdeen will rise from 32 to 36 per week.

There is no change to the number of flights to Glasgow, Edinburgh or Kirkwall and Inverness.

Chief executive Jim Cameron said: "The successful introduction of the Air Discount Scheme, new one-way fares and more direct flights is great news for our customers.

"There has never been a better time for visitors to sample the delights of the Scottish highlands and islands or for island residents to take to the air."

The summer schedule runs from 25 March to 27 October 2007.
source shetland-news.co.uk

[goldeneye]

With the end of the BMED franchise, albeit party due to the BMI takeover, and BA not seeming to want to continue franchised operations, Does anyone know what will happen with Loganair's franchise.

[tristar500]

The ground handling in Scotland (EDI GLA ABZ) will not be done by BA as it is now. Has been publicly said by BA Mainline Management that LC forms NO part of BAs future and that once the flybe sale has been sorted (whenever that is...) then BA Mainline will not be their ground handling agents at above said airports.

LC get very cheap handling - allegedly - and is by no means cost-effective (Never has been according to Station Managers).

[cuthere]

WAAF, FR's summer schedule shows DAILY flights from PIK to LDY, rather than the 5 a week they currently have. Not really the behaviour of an airline about to pull a route..........

[waaf]

Sorry I stand corrected, but then this is a rumour network!

[virginblue]

Has anyone been able to book one of those new- cheap one-way fares on Loganair that were announced in January ?

For flights from EDI and GLA to the Islands they are supposed to be starting at 32 GBP - 43 GBP one-way all incl. and from ABZ at 26- 29 GBP. I have checked a lot of dates Aug - Oct as they recommend to book early, but the cheapest I have been able to find on any given date is approx. 20 - 30 GBP more expensive than the advertised fare. How long in advance can these cheap fares be booked - aaprently they are not yet available for the summer/fall.

[airfrump]

Hi Guys everywhere I turn i am hearing that S.G. is selling up. Apparantley we are all going to be working for Eastern Airways, so although we get a payrise:ok: bang goes the pension.:eek:

[airfrump]

Yeah its true they are replacing them with Eastern Airways Jetstream 41s

[ecj]

You seem to know a lot?? How about some facts to back up your comments.

[Skipness One Echo]

Presumably that would be the former LOGANAIR Eastern Airways Jetstream 41s that got transferred out to Manx Airlines ( Europe ) to British Regional Airlines, then to BA CitiExpress and then to Eastern Airlines. * phew *

What goes around as they say...bet they don't fly as BA ( again )though.

[tallaonehotel]

Might be the management announcement that an ex Eastern director will soon take up a new post at loganair?.

Maybe airfrump would like to elaborate on his information?...

[ecj]

Now that might make sense - they advertised for a new CEO end of last year. The present one is planning to retire sometime this year.

[parkfell]

The new chief engineer who starts at Loganair shortly comes from Eastern....send three and four pence ~~ we are going to advance

[airfrump]

Richard Lake CEO and owner of Eastern Airways has been seen Talking to S.G several times over the past few weeks in ABZ. Easter now has a total of 29 J41s and have just intalled their own sim at their HO they also have 4 Saab 2000 and I hear they are looking to take on the Bacon 146's:O

[tallaonehotel]

You seem to know rather alot...

Why would Eastern take on 4 clapped out 146's?
Wonder if BA are paying him again to take aircraft off their hands again?:)

Was it over dinner or in an airport coffee bar?

[airfrump]

He has stuck a deal with Bae systems to keep them flying - they are going to be refurbished at PIK. It was actually in an airport meeting room and over dinner.

[airfrump]

They will be used for Business class charters. If you have ever flown Eastern you'll know they provide a quality service - I can see where R.L is coming from with this type of service - its how flying used to be and should be. But hey you pay for what you get.

[airfrump]

And now dont forget that half of them are now owned by Flybe and they are now the lessor

[tallaonehotel]

So will airfrump tell us when this deal is taking place then?.

I'd check your info on the J41's, the 12 ex bral machines are still on lease from BAE systems then sub leased to air kilroe by BA/BACON/Flybe.

Might have to start preparing for another move then with regards to Eastern, don't fancy living down at Humberside!.

[jethro15]

I'd check your info on the J41's, the 12 ex bral machines are still on lease from BAE systems then sub leased to air kilroe by BA/BACON/Flybe
Hasn't the lease agreement for the J41's been transfered in full to Eastern?

jethro
UK and Ireland Airline Fleet Listings
http://www.jethros.i12.com

[Skipness One Echo]

http://www.shetlandtoday.co.uk/Shetlandtimes/content_details.asp?ContentID=22265

Are they really gonna have mainline BA flights handled by Aviance and the Highland and Islands Loganair services handled by Servisair.
Or is BA pushing out Loganair quite as obviously as it seems?

[waaf]

Yes its funny that BA have decided on Aviance for the Shuttle's but Loganair have gone for Servisair to do their handling. I know of at least two Loganair passengers who have been denied access to the BA lounge since the hand over. The situation at Inverness is even funnier. There are no BA flights anymore to LGW since they are all Flybe now. The BA Exec Lounge is therefore standing empty since Loganair who are now the only BA flag carrier at INV are not willing to pay the charges to the HIAL for the rent of the Lounge. Never mind, no diminishment in the level of service has been promised......

[Richard Taylor]

So any up-to-date gen on Logie?

Are they still planning on replacing their Saab 340s, was it Dash 8-300s that were rumoured?

Are they going to stay with the inter-Scottish routes, or try further afield, as they used to do.

Any more news on the "talks with Eastern" or was that a figment of someone's fertile imagination? :}

[Callsign Kilo]

From what I have learned Loganair will be purchasing 3 more SF340Bs. Just a rumour, so don't shoot the messanger

[robo283]

"Are they going to stay with the inter-Scottish routes, or try further afield, as they used to do. "
Aah the happy days of MAN / GLA / EDI - BHD, the innovative Airbridge fares (£25 o/w) which made Logie the original Lo Co.
Being the first manager to answer the phone in the morning meaning having to face SG's wrath for whatever had gone wrong the previous day...
Takes me right back :eek:

[GLAMM]

Def true about 3 more Saab's, 340B's. Not sure if they're bought or leased though however there has been an announcement. The talk recently was that they were to replace the A models but nothing mentioned in the official employee update last week

[DB6]

Yep, 3 Bs in, 2 As out. Good aircraft for the task. 35 kt crosswind limit very useful.

[GW76]

So unlikely expansion then...?

[waaf]

Inside source says the new CEO has been briefing crews in Glasgow during recurrent training. Three new 340B's (from Mexico) will be owned by Loganair, 2 x 340A's will disappear. Aberdeen and Edinburgh possible expansion, BA franchise to be over by next year, finances are healthy and possible link with some other operator but company not for sale. Source also says staff are being canvassed on new uniforms?? but not on aircraft paintjob!

[Richard Taylor]

Announced formally 25/10 is when BA franchise deal ends. Codeshare deal thereafter.

[Ametyst1]

The BA/Loganair franchise ends 25th October 2008 not 2007

[Richard Taylor]

:O Sorry all!

2008 indeed.

Hope I didn't give Loganair peeps a heart attack! :p

[db7]

Interesting that no one has yet commented here on next Monday's Flybe announcement (see Flybe thread)

[virginblue]

Hmmm, the information in the FlyBe thread could mean anything and nothing at all for Flybe. Another scenario: The end of Euromanx with Flybe taking over the pax to London, Belfast, Manchester.

Quite honestly, I do not see why Flybe would be more interested in Loganair than, say, Eastern. Eastern has a much more interesting network from Flybe's perspective as quite a few of their routes served with 30 or 50 seaters might work with a Q400 and lower prices. I do not really see that for Loganair. Flying a Q400 between Benbecula and Glasgow or Sumburgh and Kirkwall? I don't think so, and I would be surprised if Flybe would consider using knackered 20-30seaters now that they are desperately trying to rid themselves off the BACON ERJ145s.

[Seven Fifty Seven]

Bit of a narrow view don't you think virginblue?

Why use a Q400 at all when a franchise would allow you to use smaller 30 seaters on routes that are not viable for the current 70 seater in use? So Loganair's aircraft are a bunch of knackered 30 seaters are they? Are you for real? Have you seen how many of Eastern's flights go tech everyday? Bear in mind that the Saab 2000 and the 340 finished production at exactly the same time. That makes them the same age with the same problems. I've flown Boeings that go tech just as often (Also the same age!). That's the problem with high cycle, short sector networks. And do you really think that all Loganair do is Kirkwall, Benbecula & Sumburgh?! Going to be an interesting year methinks!

[Wellington Bomber]

seven fifty seven

I beg to differ on the Eastern tech front, Just look at the figures at the majority of Eastern destinations and you will find that Eastern are the most punctual.

[Richard Taylor]

With the Bomber on this one - not aware of widespread T3 tech problems, whatever other issues they may have (if you believe what is being written elsewhere!! :rolleyes: )

Will be interesting to see if anything transpires on the LOG/BEE front though.

[HH6702]

i think that it will be eastern before loganair.

Eastern and Flybe complete on many routes.
They will complete on ncl-cardiff route from april 08.

[virginblue]

I was not having a go at Loganair's fleet but merely highlighting the fact that Flybe is totally focused on the 78seat Q400 which is large enough to let Flybe play in the LCC league and not too large to get into the line of fire of the big boys (with a few larger E195s added to the fleet). I do not think that Flybe would consider operating anything smaller than the Q400 again given their low-cost-model (which was the reason why I mentioned thinner routes such as GLA-BEB or KOI-LSI - if you think about a possible fleet you need to look at the lower end because if there is not suitable aircraft to serve such routes, the routes would need to be axed).

That said, indeed the only option would be a franchise operation. However, what would be the purpose of a franchise from Loganair's point of view? It would cost Loganair a ton of money because that is the whole concept of franchising. What would Loganair gain? Other than a brand that is not particularly well recognized in the Highlands and Islands - in contrast to British Airways - and does not offer interlining, through-check-in, a useful FFP, free luggage, pay-for-food etc. etc. (and Flybe could not allow Loganair to do things differently in order to avoid dilution of its own brand).

Or maybe an outright purchase with Loganair remaining independent under its own brand as a subsidiary? Why would Flybe be interested in that? I have no idea, to be honest, but open to suggestions. :confused:

[GW76]

Eastern doest really fit into the "much further north" category as suggested by the rumour poster. Id go with further INV expansion or ABZ, or even LOG.

[Richard Taylor]

I've heard nothing to suggest further ABZ (be delighted to be proved wrong! :O )

I think INV is in line for growth, likes of AMS, CDG, MAN if I remember rightly, although they were maybe announced already?

[airhumberside]

Perhaps the announement is ABZ-LGW? Or havent BE decided what to do with their new LGW slots yet (it's either ABZ or NQY apparently)

[Wellington Bomber]

HH6702

How do you think that BE are going to compete with T3 on NCL - CWL if they are only offering a once a day service at lunchtime. Yes they may take the £20 return brigade who book months in advance to see Aunt Daffy in the valleys. But T3 traffic is the business brigade who want daily returns to be with their families, not overnighting at the Holiday Inn Express on the Cardiff Ring Road.

Richard Taylor

BE cut their LBA-ABZ flights so I can not see BE expanding vastly at ABZ, yes maybe LGW - ABZ but if I am honest more probably fits in the Orange scheme of things.

BE Loganair join up or expansion at INV

BE have a lot of bridges to repair with INV business traffic after their diabolical LGW disruptions. Again what benefits for Loganair with a BE tieup

[Newdundeeflyer]

What about Loganair for DND, now that it is part of the HIAL conglomerate ?

[Richard Taylor]

From Oct 2008, local news saying Loganair have announced the news.

[G-FLYB]

Flybe signs historic franchise deal with Loganair
14 January 2008
Flybe is today announcing a landmark franchise Agreement signed with Loganair, the Scottish regional airline, that will see it take to the skies in Flybe colours on 26th October 2008 at the start of the IATA 2008 Winter Season. As a result of the Agreement - that becomes effective once Loganair’s current Agreement operating as a British Airways franchisee ends on 25th October - 3.2 million seats for flights with Flybe flight numbers will go on sale in June 2008. The Agreement with Loganair – the first of its kind ever for a low cost carrier - is in line with Flybe’s innovative philosophy and strategy of continuing to build a market-leading position as Europe's largest regional airline following last year’s acquisition of BA Connect. It is also further evidence of the airline’s commitment to building a significant presence in the Scottish market and to expanding its route network there, extending Flybe’s low fare model throughout the UK - including the Highlands and Islands - which have not previously benefited from low cost airlines.
`Flybe Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Jim French says: “This landmark agreement, the first time a low cost carrier has entered into such a franchise arrangement, is an exciting development in the evolution of the low cost model and one which Flybe sees as a valid strategic option for the future.”
In further comment, Loganair’s Chairman Scott Grier says: “This is an exciting time for everyone at Loganair and a significant step for the company. The move to become a franchise partner with Flybe provides certainty and removes speculation about the future of the company. We continue to be committed to operating throughout the Highlands and Islands and this will benefit our customers with a greater choice of connections to UK and European destinations.”
Mr French adds: “This is a win-win for both airlines. For Flybe, we will see our presence in the key Scottish market greatly enhanced and will benefit from increased passenger traffic into our existing network. For Loganair, the alliance is a major opportunity to bring the recognised brand of Europe’s largest regional airline and the benefits of the low cost model to over half a million passengers.”

[Seven Fifty Seven]

Just interested in your thoughts now virginblue?

[virginblue]

Well, if you read carefully, you will see that I did not say it would not happen, I was saying that I do not see the point of a franchise.

A true franchise agreement costs money, and quite a bit of it. In the past the point for Loganair was to allow through-connections via GLA, ABZ or EDI on British Airways plus access to their FFP etc. pp. none of it will be involved with Flybe unless Flybe changes its model. And because a franchise costs money, Loganair withdrew their Islander operation a while ago from the BA franchise.


For Loganair, the alliance is a major opportunity to bring the recognised brand of Europe’s largest regional airline and the benefits of the low cost model to over half a million passengers

I would like to see some explanations what exactly the advantages for Loganair are Mr. French is mentioning. I do not see the low cost model work in a 20 seat Twin Otter, let alone in an Islander.

Probably the main reason for Loganair was to get access to a distribution system. For that purpose, a simple code-share would have been less expensive than a more expensive franchise. Particularly as Flybe does connections, but not when sold through their LCC platform to which the brand is linked.

[Seven Fifty Seven]

virginblue.

To correct you. FFP will still stand as flights connecting through GLA,EDI & ABZ with onward BA connections will come under a continuing codeshare agreement with BA. Thus these flights will still be booked via BA on their website. Baggage can be checked all the way through on these connecting flights aswell.

It is a franchise not a take-over. Loganair will still offer complimentary services onboard their flights. It will still be loganair with Flybe representation and BA codeshare. Flybe doesn't have to change their business model to allow Loganair to operate this way. I think it's a very clever move. It gives Flybe full representation in the Highlands & Islands without having to alter the mainline business model to fit this niche market, and causes very little disruption to the passengers at the same time.

[virginblue]

To correct you. FFP will still stand as flights connecting through GLA,EDI & ABZ with onward BA connections will come under a continuing codeshare agreement with BA. Thus these flights will still be booked via BA on their website. Baggage can be checked all the way through on these connecting flights aswell.


But will you get FFP if you book under the BE designator - and will be "BA" and the "BE" fares the same?

All in all, these points nicely demonstrate that the franchise obviously does not give Loganair what they feel they need as otherwise there is little point in having a franchise with one airline and a code-share with the other airline that used to be the old franchiser.

It is a franchise not a take-over. Loganair will still offer complimentary services onboard their flights. It will still be loganair with Flybe representation and BA codeshare. Flybe doesn't have to change their business model to allow Loganair to operate this way. I think it's a very clever move. It gives Flybe full representation in the Highlands & Islands without having to alter the mainline business model to fit this niche market, and causes very little disruption to the passengers at the same time.


All in all it is a rather bizarre franchise. A bit like a McDonald's franchise where the new outlet says. "But we will sell a Whopper instead of a BigMac and will also throw in some onion rings." What is going on with Flybe and Loganair certainly is not a textbook franchise. For a franchiser, one of the core principles of franchising is that the product is the same whereever it is sold undr the brand. Everything else confuses customer who flies Flybe on the first leg, gets a nice drink, free luggage and an assigned seat and on the next is expected to pay for the same kind of service.

[Honiley]

It'll all come out in the wash!

I would expect Loganair to completely disappear within say, 5 years as it's absorbed 100% into FlyBe...Isn't Grier 67 this year!?!

I met Jim French last year, he said "the future is in acquisitions"

[Seven Fifty Seven]

Virginblue,

Those are all good questions of which I'm afraid I can't answer. I don't profess to know much about the intricate business side of this deal, although the buzz from the management is that LC will gain a lot from this tie up aswell. I think the 'on-line' aspects and the synergies in ground handling etc all play a part. The BN2s operating the Orkney inter-island services will not be included in the franchise. They are now and will remain as pure Loganair services. What it means for the future? Who knows? I'm sure Loganair will take it all in it's stride and just continue to do what it does best everyday for the Scottish communities.

Good to have some decent debate with you though VB. Cheers.

[Drink Up Thee Cider]

Wellie Bomber, you said BE have a lot of bridges to repair with INV business traffic after their diabolical LGW disruptions. Again what benefits for Loganair with a BE tieup

Its my understanding that BE have cancelled one flight out of INV since Sept - hardly diabolical. And they're bringing in the E195 which I can highly recommend having flown in one last week. It could be argued that Flybe are looking after INV far better than the Waterside mob ever did.

And you also said Again what benefits for Loganair with a BE tieup

Other than Flybe's marketing spend, better UK connections, an online booking engine that works and franchising with an airline that gives a monkey about the regions, bugger all I suppose......

[NSFU]

Wellie Bomber, you said BE have a lot of bridges to repair with INV business traffic after their diabolical LGW disruptions. Again what benefits for Loganair with a BE tieup

Its my understanding that BE have cancelled one flight out of INV since Sept - hardly diabolical. And they're bringing in the E195 which I can highly recommend having flown in one last week. It could be argued that Flybe are looking after INV far better than the Waterside mob ever did.

The trouble is that it's not quite good enough just to make the service more reliable - the perception has to improve as well. Now, if I miss yet another meeting in London because I booked Flybe, it'll be my fault for booking Flybe because 'everyone knows' they are unreliable.

So I'm still avoiding Flybe where there is any half-reasonable alternative; of course the abject service standards and LGW S have something to do with it too :yuk:

[exlatccatsa]

From the Shetland News today
http://www.shetland-news.co.uk/news_01_2008/Loganair%20revive%20Norway%20connection.htm

16 January, 2008

SCOTTISH airline Loganair is filling the gap left by Faroese shipping company Smyril Line when it severed Shetland's link with its Norwegian neighbours last year.

The airline's chairman Scott Grier yesterday (Tuesday) announced that a new twice weekly summer air service between Sumburgh and Bergen would be introduced as of 7 June.

Mr Grier and the company's chief executive Peter Tierney announced the move at a meeting of Shetland Islands Council’s external transport forum, in Lerwick.

The new service, similar to one operated for a number of years by the Norwegian airline Widerøe, will run until 30 August.

Mr Grier said: "We have all inclusive one way fares for £59 going up to a fully flexible fair of £145.

"You can make a return flight for as little as £118 or up to £290. We believe that will be attractive and we certainly will be promoting it very, very hard."
The news was welcomed yesterday by the chairman of Shetland's transport partnership ZetTrans, Allan Wishart, who said it was vital to maintain the isles historic links with Norway.

"This certainly helps to replace the links that have been lost from previous operators like Widerøe, and also Smyril Line,” Mr Wishart said.

"It can only do good for tourism and Loganair have emphasised that they are going to market it well. I think it is important to get more visitors from Scandinavia to keep that link going.

"Loganair probably is looking at the first year as an investment to get the service introduced and established. Hopefully it will build up and continue."

[Hyperborean]

It is good news but I hope that the marketing on the Norwegian side is better than we have had in the past. I can recall BA's operation nearly 20 years ago which ran KOI LSI BGO on Saturdays with the budgie and more recently Loganair's LSI BGO. In the latter case we met several norwegians who had tried to book only to be told by travel agents in Norway that the service didn't exist, fortunately they persisted and used the route. Presumably Wideroe were better at their home market.I am sure there is a market but the important thing to remember is that Hordaland has over 250,000 potential customers whilst Shetland, or Orkney, have less than a tenth of that number.

[parkfell]

And will this new route receive any form of subsidy?
;)

[Baltasound]

....filled with norweigans hunting fro cheap booze. Time to invest in discounted booze warehouses around Lerwick.

There are rumours on the Island that the strip here may come back into use......

[Richard Taylor]

When's the last time Unst was in use...Brymon Dash 7's?

[Baltasound]

I will be honest here and say that I couldn't tell you what sort of aircraft was used, but I did fly from Unst as my father was based at Saxa. But that was waayyyyyyyy back in the mid 70's.

The kids like using it to race their souped up Escorts up and down the runway in the thrash during midsummer.

[atmosphere]

Will servisair still handle them from GLA with this new franchise deal?

[Seven Fifty Seven]

Yep they are.

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

With the BA franchise ending, LC were looking forward to going it alone.

Then they realised they were going to have to get their own check in staff, deskshandling etc etc etc everywhere they go, as BA's plainly no longer usable.

By doing this tie-up with FlyBe they avoid all this extra hassle and expense.

At least, that's what I heard.

Great to see Logie continuing. Long may they!:ok:

[VIRGA]

As said above, it's not a 'real' franchise as franchises go in business. It will come out in the wash as Loganair is completely absorbed by flyBE and then when everything settles down and flyBE go on the stockmarket, BA will buy them out right and finally have the low cost operator that they have been wanting for so long. However the flyBE staff will get nothing of the BA conditions of employ and flyBE will still trade under it's own brand, except for the fact that pax will obviously benefit from the oneworld legacy. Staff will not.

[GW76]

What a load of speculative nonsense. You are honestly telling us BA will be genuinely interested in taking back FlyBE and Loganair as a fully absorbed regional ? ( given that they are dumping franchises quicker than a 777 with no engines)
Hands up whos believes it.....

[PPRuNeUser0178]

I think its a real shame that Logan didn't go it alone.

My last small outfit, (small TP operator with less than 10 aircraft) managed to organise a ticketing system, a small call centre, an online booking facilty and ground handling contracts with check in staff even wearing the uniform etc.

I'm sure Logan could have done this also and then not have to give a large chunk of their profits away to Flybe now instead of BA.

Loganair could have gone for their own branding, which would save the confusion for the pax if the fare structure and service levels are to be maintained whilst flying on what appears to be a loco operators a/c??

[Skipness One Echo]

When the pendulum swings back again BA buying flybe get their entire regional operation back as a profit making subsidiary. It's tempting

[jetstreamtechrecords]

Or maybe once Loganair have had enough of damaging their brand with FlyMaybe on the side they'l sell out to a proper regional airline that understands their local market and wants to operate 30 seat aircraft. Logie and BE are worlds apart in philosophy - this is simply a marketing deal to capitalise on BEs million £ national advertising which BA used to do for them.

[Richard Taylor]

Reported today Loganair has acquired the ex-City Star sister companies at ABZ, Caledonian Airborne Engineering & City Star Handling. Were recent rumours of such a deal, denied by the directors of X9.

LOG will operate the acquisition under the CAE banner.

[virginblue]

Picture of Loganair Saab 340 G-LGNK at GLasgow in Flybe colors:

http://www.skyliner-aviation.de/viewphoto.main?LC=&picid=4657&SkyID=860c28611c9cfe5b74675c893f120ac7

Btw, what is the aircraft visible behind the Saab - apparently an ATR in a color scheme resembling the long gone Eurowings livery?


Cannot remember - are the Twin Otters and Islanders part of the franchise deal? Or just the Twotters and not the Islanders as currently under the BA franchise?

[JulietNovemberPapa]

Will be flying LOG six times in Sept, on SF3 and BNI. Can't wait.

I'd love to fly GLA-BRR-GLA, but the fares are very expensive.

The SF3 in BE livery looks pretty cool.

[simoncorbett]

Yes The Atr Is Ex Eurowings And Is Now Flown As Freighter On Behalf Of Fedex By Eurocontractors ?

[scr1]

NK was in inv today did BA8910/8911 lsi koi inv koi lsi think it then went to abz

[BAladdy]

Well word is BA management are furious with LC for using a BE liveried aircraft on one it's routes. BA said they could do the basic paint work with a British Airways sticker logo on it until the franchise end, but not titles until mid October at the earliest. Under the franchise agreement BA implement a fine like system for each time the contract is breeched and ultimatly they could start legal action for breech of contract.

After all GB's aircraft where painted white but no Easyjet titles could be added until the end of the BA franchise.

G-LGNK will operate services ex DND when they start soon.

[100above]

I'd be surprised if BA management even noticed - they don't give a stuff about flying in the UK regions now and have regularly had non-BA liveried aircraft operating subcharters over the years both by franchisees and on their own mainline domestic services too. Given that BA own 15% of flybe and codeshare with flybe on certain routes I hope they might allow a small operator like Loganair to operate the odd flybe liveried aircraft where operational requirements demand it. Agree the 340 looks good in flybe colours - hope the new franchise works well for them.

[IOMspotter]

letss just hope they keep it to the franchise only and dont sell out completely.:O

[scr1]

g-lgnn is now in flybe livery

[TheQuietLife]

I'd be surprised if BA management even noticed - they don't give a stuff about flying in the UK regions now and have regularly had non-BA liveried aircraft operating subcharters over the years both by franchisees and on their own mainline domestic services too. Given that BA own 15% of flybe and codeshare with flybe on certain routes I hope they might allow a small operator like Loganair to operate the odd flybe liveried aircraft where operational requirements demand it. Agree the 340 looks good in flybe colours - hope the new franchise works well for them. There is also a huge difference to BA between easyJet branding and FlyBe branding (flybe is also a company in which they have a commercial interest).

From a BA perspective, easyJet is not only route competition - it is also the low cost underclass of airline from which they differentiate their offering psychologically.

Quite apart from the direct effect on passengers and marketing to them - can you imaging the PR damage that would come from stories in the media about BA using 'easyJet aircraft'.

With Logan/Be this is less of an issue due to pax familiarity - and it is effectively a non-issue due to the commercial interest and recent history (the fate of BA Connect)

[smith]

Agree the 340 looks good in flybe colours - hope the new franchise works well for them.

Personally I think it looks better in the BA colours.

[tallaonehotel]

I think BA management should be more interested in their own troubles i.e The Whole Heathrow Operation!.

This goes to show that the BA management are on the ball with the real problems that face the airline!.

[tristar500]

More power to Loganair / flybe franchise partner.

Great little outfit, with very challenging parameters with which to operate in.

Hope flybe give more routes Loganairs way as they really deserve to do well, and prosper.

:ok:

[DB6]

What a fine chap you are, Tristar! :ok:

[4567]

Will Flybe/Loganair be expanding routes from Dundee?

What other routes could Flybe/Loganair operate?

Do loganair have plans for more SAAB 340's? It would be great if they aquired SAAB 2000's.

[goldeneye]

I would guess that Manchester must be pretty high up the list for a new destination from Dundee with Loganair/Flybe.

Maybe Southampton and Norwich.

[MUFC_fan]

Dundee - Manchester (3x daily)
Dundee - Southampton (1x daily)
Dundee - Exeter (1x daily)

The next three routes from the airport.

[Cloud1]

That sounds very definite - what sources do you have? Surprised at EXT...

[IOMspotter]

Well, no suprise at EXT really. When you have FlyBe's logo on your aircraft, EXT is the centre of the universe:ooh:. Mission Control Central:{:{

[Richard Taylor]

LOG are perfect to open up new DND routes, either for themselves or, as seems more likely, for Flybe.

Anyone know if there are plans for ABZ, again either for themselves or on Flybe's behalf, or are LOG quite happy to fly the Northern Isles routes?

I could see Belfast, for example, being handed to LOG to fly on Flybe's behalf.

Any more Saab 340Bs to source? Doubt Saab 2000s, as T3 are looking for more, so far without success.

[Skipness One Echo]

Dundee - Manchester (3x daily)
Dundee - Southampton (1x daily)
Dundee - Exeter (1x daily)

Odd choice as the latter two are not going to have bottom dollar leisure fares and are clearly not aimed at the business traveller at once daily......hmm what's your source MUFC_fan?

[Lord Lardy]

Heard Loganair have lost out on Londonderry-Dublin PSO route from July. Is it true?

[Cloud1]

Well, no suprise at EXT really. When you have FlyBe's logo on your aircraft, EXT is the centre of the universe:ooh:. Mission Control Central:{:{If only that were true......but we are still waiting for IOM-EXT are we not?? ;)

[DB6]

Lord Lardy, who to, Flybe :}? Har har

[johnref]

Rumours are that CityJet have won Derry & Knock!

[en2r]

Rumours are that CityJet have won Derry & Knock!
I heard that Aer Arann got Derry, Cityjet got Knock and Ryanair got Kerry! Still no official confirmation though

[en2r]

Its now official Loganair have lost the Derry-Dublin PSO to Aer Arann. Will this also mean the end for Derry-Glasgow?

[tallaonehotel]

I reckon the route will be dropped by Loganair at the end of the PSO contract in July,
pointless operating as the loads were never brilliant. It a was always a commercial bonus to the route network.

At least the Irish are looking out for their own, unlike the Scottish Government with the Ambulance contract.

[Stewart28]

Ryanair have the Prestwick route anyway, which seems to be doing well for them, it would be sad to see loganair go.

[4567]

On the + side will this not free a Saab 340 to operate another route maybe from Dundee or somewhere else any thoughts? Also will it not free up another a/c for another route from GLA if LDY is dropped?

[chrism20]

I think it was just the one aircraft that done the lot

LDY/DUB/LDY/GLA/LDY/DUB/LDY

Presumably the jaunt to GLA everyday was to enable to aircraft to be swapped over for maintenance etc

[4567]

Will that a/c go to Dundee? or new route to somewhere from GLA or will LDY from GLA continue with another route from Ldy?

[j41cac]

I know this is quite random but is Logy gonna do a IOM-LCY? I don't know if its possible but now Euromanx has gone, I heard Eastern and Logy going for it.:hmm:

[wishicouldland]

Doubt that Logie will be in a position to do this albeit an ideal scenario after losing the PSO. The Saab340 doesn't have the performance required for LCY.

[atomicspaceship]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Crossair used to operate Saab 340s into LCY back in the day. I'm sure it's on the list of approved aircraft so Logie could be eyeing this route.

[OpsSix]

As did OLT (operate Saab 340's in LCY that is).

[Cloud1]

Mr Rutter told IOMtoday that Logie were looking into it as Flybe franchise as apparently BE Q400s can't do it.

[Island Jockey]

Now that Euromanx have stopped ops IOM-LCY the x 3 per day slots they had will be re-allocated by London City airport.

Slots at LCY cannot be 'traded' only swapped.

umour is that LCY are looking to encourage 70 seat plus for new operations so future IOM - LCY looks doubtful unless VLM incresae Ops or somoneone else already operating at LCY uses their slot for IOM.

[GMIMA]

heard on the grapevine that ricky lake flew in to the iom in his learjet to have talks with the iom gov, as they do not want to lose the iom lcy route, apparently they have requested that the j41 doesnt operate this route.

my guess is u will see a nice saab 2000 very soon!

[Stewart28]

Can anyone tell me if Loganair have done a codeshare agreement with Aer Arann on the Dublin - Derry route, as I have heard that they still have this route.

[Dash-7 lover]

Slots do have a time limit on them. If you cancel the same flight on the same day each week more than 3 times within one month you run the risk of losing the slot completely at the end of the season. Formally known as 'use it or lose it' in ops circles. It then reverts back to the airport allocator.

[en2r]

Can anyone tell me if Loganair have done a codeshare agreement with Aer Arann on the Dublin - Derry route, as I have heard that they still have this route.
I don't think so. The flights are for sale on the Aer Arann website and if you look at the flight times, they show the flights being operated by a Dublin based aircraft. Loganair have no aircraft based at Dublin but Aer Arann do.
Unless perhaps Aer Arann are wet leasing a Loganair aircraft and basing it at Dublin?

[EI-BUD]

Has this already been reported, On the BA website From 23rd July there are no more Loganair City of Derry to Glasgow flights, so looks like an end to Loganair on the route.

[JB007]

:eek: Very suprising...

GLA-LDY route started in 1979 and always had good loads...

[Skipness One Echo]

Can't compete with Ryanair's Glasgow PIK route launched last year though.

[virginblue]

Probably has more to do with the loss of PSO on LDY-DUB.

[4567]

Anyone know what routes the Saab 340 will be used on now that there leaving LDY?

[ALLMCC]

The route is showing on Flybes' website as a Loganair franchise route bookable from next month.

[db7]

Anybody know what the emergency involving the LDY-DUB flight was on Friday p.m.? Seems to have been a full emergency landing - return flight cancelled.

[ATIS31]

On the news the other night it said Loganair was cutting some flights due to fuel price increases anyone know which routes ?

[Hial Flyer]

On the news the other night it said Loganair was cutting some flights due to fuel price increases anyone know which routes ?

The GLA-ILY route is loosing the early afternoon flight (BA8925/6) on a Tue.Wed,Thu from the 1st July and also on a Mon,Fri from the 29th Sept.

Don't know any other cutbacks.

[exlatccatsa]

http://www.shetland-news.co.uk/news_06_2008/Loganair%20announce%20flight%20cutbacks.htm

[Richard Taylor]

ABZLSI being cutback...a main oil route...cutback because the cost of oil is so high - there's an irony somewhere. But it has to be done, nowhere is immune.

[putzy]

Not sure what the nature of the Dub emergency was but no doubt the very diligent management will look at the facts , study the case and its intricacies and then make its informed decision purely based on whether they like the crew or not.

Management; very average intelligent people with no formal training making very questionable decisions? sounds like Logan.

Good luck everybody.

[4567]

I see LDY is being continued from GLA W08 its bookable on the BE website with connections to Southampton.

[fredtheanorak]

All flights now bookable on Flymaybe website.... Come back Logie nearly all is forgiven:)

[flightlevel26]

It's still Loganair, just with a different franchise partner!

[100above]

fredtheanorak - come back logie ? Well thats just what has happened in a way. A fair number of flybe staff are original Loganair staff who got bought over by Manx/Bral then BACitiexpress/Bacon then flybe, so parked next to a Loganair Saab could well be a 195 or Q400 driver who started his days in a white, red and black Loganair aircraft many moons ago. Talk about full circle !

[Baltasound]

Arrrr.

Not suprising really.

[GLAMM]

I've got to say after all the recent news about Qantas engineering issues that page 7 of the Sun today was quite comical. Captain stuck in the Looganair toilet at the back of the Saab and had to be let out through the cargo hold. Passengers inconvenienced by an hour from Stornoway to Edinburgh. Thats one for the pilot to tell the grandkids

[JB007]

...or the comments column of the logbook!

[tallaonehotel]

The Sun = Toilet Journalism.

;)

[Stewart28]

Been trying to book a flight from LDY -GLA throught the Flybe website but it is not there anyone know are they not doing it no more.

[tristar500]

Loganair will discontinue LDY services from OCT this year - saw the email today from BA REV ACCs...

I think its to do with non-renewal of subsidies from various parliaments and the change over from BA to flybe... Heard Aer Arann managed to pick up some of the Loganair ''Northern Ireland - Southern Ireland'' routes...

I stand corrected if this is not entirley true... :ok:

[Stewart28]

Thanks for that

[cuthere]

Aer Arann picked up the only PSO (Public Service Obligation) route from N Ireland to Dublin earlier this year, taking it from Loganair. That's significant because the route is subsidised by the Irish Government. Loganair's franchise agreement with BA runs out soon, to be replaced by a franchise with Flybe. Flybe said they were going to take over the Derry to Glasgow International route, using Loganair 'planes, but as has been said, this is now missing from the Flybe booking engine. Since RYR began the LDY to PIK route, Loganair's route to Glasgow has suffered..............therefore, I'm not totally surprised the route is now unbookable.

[Skipness One Echo]

Given that Loganair are often the only commercial traffic on frequency, why on Earth have they started using alpha numeric callsigns bearing no relation to the flight number. Surely it can't be callsign confusion?

Just curious. Keep thinking they sound more like easyJet with those numbers and that was confusing me.

Anyone know?

[Skipness One Echo]

Given that Loganair are often the only commercial traffic on frequency, why on Earth have they started using alpha numeric callsigns bearing no relation to the flight number. Surely it can't be callsign confusion?

Just curious. Keep thinking they sound more like easyJet with those numbers and that was confusing me.

Anyone know?

Also are the Twin Otters not to receive FlyBe colours? The Saabs look good.

[Tubbs]

There was occasionally callsign confusion, often between company aircraft. The format used now helps to minimise that, although a lot of them are tongue twisters. I think the twotters will be painted soon.

[Kiltie]

Skipness this is to comply with safety advice from SRG sent to all operators some years ago discouraging the use of numerical flight numbers and promoting a numbers & letters combination to avoid RT confusion with FLs, QNHs etc.