Twin rating before or after CPL

[harrip]

I'd welcome any thoughts on when is generally felt best to train for a twin rating, in particular, before or after obtainingn a CPL.

The is the benefit of possibly getting GST free training if its done before CPL but on the other hand, getting the CPL under your belt also has advantages.

Cheers.

[Ozgrade3]

Get the twin rating as soon as possible, after your PPL. If you can afford it, do as much as you can of your command time hrs in the twin That way you kill two birds with one stone, command hrs, twin hrs, better still get your NFR rating and do night twin command hrs. Additionally, when you come to do your IFR rating, the 50 hrs or so on the twin will have you allready comfortable in the aircraft. The IFR rating is no time to be learning a new aircraft as well.

[Wee_Willy]

Would have to disagree with you there Ozgrade3.

I think, and this is only my opinion, that it would be better to get your IF rating before your CPL and do as much x/c time as you can IFR, then get your multi rating after your CPL. This way you can get up to speed with the IF environment in an aircraft that is still resonably simple to operate and when you come to do your multi rating, you are comfotable with flying IFR.

Plus. There are probably more companies out there flying single engine IFR than there are multi-engine VFR so this makes you more appealing from an employment point of view.

Good luck whatever you choose.

[404 Titan]

harrip

Sorry but I have to disagree with both Ozgrade3 & Wee_Willy. I’ve been in this industry 20+ years in various rolls from CP, CFI, ATO and now heavy metal driver. Personally I think it is a waste of money for most people to even contemplate an initial multi engine endorsement and instrument rating before getting their first job. From experience that first job won’t be flying in this type of operation so therefore you will have to waste additional money just to keep yourself current and completing the annual renewals. This will negate any advantage you may have received from a GST rebate.

My advice is to get your first job, which will be VFR. Get some hours up and then do your initial multi and instrument rating when it looks like you are going to be in a position to use them. Firstly you have saved on the currency and annual renewal costs and since you are now working as a pilot it is tax deductible which will earn you approximately 20 cents for every dollar spent in a refund depending on your taxable income at tax return time, double the amount of any GST rebate. :ok:

[MBA747]

harrip:

Perhaps you should consider the twin endorsement as part of the 10 hours general handling which is part of the CPL. Instead of wasting 10 hours in the training area, you could use part of those hours towards the endorsement.

Most schools will take some convincing to do it, thats because they wouldn't think of it or they are too set in their ways. At present CASA has upped the hours of the twin endorsement from 5 hours to 7. So what you do, is fly 2 hours in a good twin simulator getting used to the throttle quadrant, power settings and the speed of the aircraft. You can can also practise some of the phase 1 drills in the sim so that you have a better idea of it in the air.Also if you have a good instructor who thinks outside the box he can teach you a lot. You can practise go-arounds etc, discuss assymetric flap problems, runaway props, its really all up to your instructor and how quickly your willing to learn.

You won't have any trouble in the air. A friend of mine did just that and despite all the gurus telling him he would find it difficult, had no problems. It also means you will not have to do a twin endorsement as part of the I/R if its done on a Seminole, Duchess or Twin Comanche all of which are common I/R training aircraft. If you are then told you will be rusty if you havent flown the twin for a while & that you will have to spend time in the training area to get up to speed for the I/R. Thats isn't a problem, because you can do 20 hours sim as part of the I/R and you can use this time to get to learn the procedures and get up to speed in the twin.

Unfortunately in GA the schools do not put to much emphasis on the simulators, but thats because they dont know how to use them to their full benefit.

When you get to do the I/R get your instructor to give you traffic in the sim.
So when your doing an I/R navex, you can get used to managing traffic, ie reducing your speed , talking to the other aircraft all can be practised in the sim. There are some schools who will tell you its better to reduce the sim time and fly because it's more realistic. Thats rubbish, you can save money and get better value if the simulator is utilised properly and you have an experienced instructor who is more interested in training you, then logging twin time.

[4SPOOLED]

the thing that will be holding you back in the future is theory!

If you really want to get ahead, get your Irex and ATPL straight away after CPL theory.....

You can always have a twin endorsement in a day or two of flying, and an IF rating in less than a few weeks, the ATPL will soak up a heap of your time especially if you are trying to fly for a meager living aswell.

Also, why make things harder for yourself? if you fly a twin in your CPL command time building, the testing officer may require you to fly the most complicated a/c you are endorsed to fly, and why bother yourself with engine outs and assymetric handling in a CPL flight test when you can fly in a single, get a job and start building hours!

Im sure alot of instructors however wont mind you flogging them round in a twin for hours on end getting you up to scratch for the flight test!

[The Bullwinkle]

Just my two cents worth.
I did my initial twin on a seneca as part of building hours for my C.P.L.
Subsequently, my first charter after gaining my C.P.L. with that organisation was in the seneca, and I also did a couple of ferry flights for them also.
Did it have a great impact on my flying career progression? Probably not, but then again, it didn't hurt either.
If you can afford a twin endorsement, go for it.
It is still a buzz that I clearly remember today landing an aircraft with a fully-feathered engine.
Good luck whichever way you choose to go! :ok:
Also, why make things harder for yourself? if you fly a twin in your CPL command time building, the testing officer may require you to fly the most complicated a/c you are endorsed to fly, and why bother yourself with engine outs and assymetric handling in a CPL flight test when you can fly in a single, get a job and start building hours!

I was told this sort of story when I did mine, but don't believe it. I completed my C.P.L. in a Piper-Arrow. The testing officer cannot put you at a disadvantage by requiring you to do your test in a twin. The only requirement from memory is that your test must be conducted in an aircraft with a Constant Speed Propeller.

[hair of the dogma]

harrip

I guess it depends on your money situation, so I guess that if you have the coin do your MECIR after your CPL. Does not make much sense to do it prior as it is your command time that will probably hold you back from CPL test.

But remember, your first job wont be in a twin and you wont be flying IFR. However that said without an IR (single or multi) you will be stuck flying in low paid(sh*t pay) jobs in singles forever. And it is awful hard to save 12 grand for instrument rating while earning the equivalent of the dole.

IREX is good to get out of the way early though, a bit more knowledge and relatively low cost.

Hope it helps.

[*Lancer*]

I'll chuck in an opinion different to everyone. :}

Twin first with some MECIR training before CPL. It all counts towards your CPL! It's possible to have everything with less than 200TT. Overall, you're hitting everything harder and faster, and completing your licencing earlier and cheaper.

Lots of people will tell you not to waste your time because you won't fly a twin, or fly IFR for your first job. It's a furphy - some people DO fly twins in their first jobs, but you definately won't be if you don't have an endorsement!

My first twin solo was loads better than first solo. Being on such a steep learning curve allowed me to really enjoy the thrill of what I was doing.

[OpsNormal]

I'll chuck in an opinion different to everyone. :}
Twin first with some MECIR training before CPL. It all counts towards your CPL! It's possible to have everything with less than 200TT. Overall, you're hitting everything harder and faster, and completing your licencing earlier and cheaper.
Lots of people will tell you not to waste your time because you won't fly a twin, or fly IFR for your first job. It's a furphy - some people DO fly twins in their first jobs, but you definately won't be if you don't have an endorsement!
My first twin solo was loads better than first solo. Being on such a steep learning curve allowed me to really enjoy the thrill of what I was doing.

I agree. Not to mention you will not want to miss out on many operators who require certain number of renewals to apply to them. Many people who have waited until later to do their MECIR rue the day they decided to "put it off" as it can mean that you may well end up unable to move up or onwards for a while.

I would grab the opportunity to do it asap.

[Lando Calrissian]

I gotta agree with 404 Titan. Save your money, or at least spend it on time in a C206 or C210 as these are most likely the aircraft you will find yourself flying in. I did my MECIR after CPL and it has never been used as my work is all VFR. You will be spending big $ each year out of a meager pay packet when it comes to renewal time.

[Bort Simpson]

I gotta agree with 404 Titan. Save your money, or at least spend it on time in a C206 or C210 as these are most likely the aircraft you will find yourself flying in. I did my MECIR after CPL and it has never been used as my work is all VFR. You will be spending big $ each year out of a meager pay packet when it comes to renewal time.

So you may have to spend money for IR remewals when you are in a VRF job without any IFR flights. But what about the opportunity you will have to save the money to get CIR from what is most likely a low paying job. Think of that, is that what you want?

Re the flight test (single v twin)
Yes you will get assymetric procedures in your test if you're in a twin but then again it is better than looking for an open space when your in a single with that one engine taken by the testing pilot whilst over tiger territory.

You have to work out what you can afford and what may cost u later. After all if you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth it wouldn't matter and you wouldn't have posted your question in the first place.

Bort:ok:

[Lando Calrissian]

I see what your saying Bort, but I had the money in the bank at the end of my CPL. If I had chosen not to spend the money at the time, then barring any brain explosions I'd STILL have the money now and wouldn't need to rely on other earnings to pay for a twin endorsement and CIR.

harrip I apologise for drifting off your original question; no I would advise against twin time before your CPL, but if money isn't an issue then go for your life.

[outboundjetsetter]

yup i have to agree with Titan 404 listen to him as he does know what hes talking about, a 'few' ppl maybe lucky enough to get a bit of a break as a 1st job but they probably wont be upto speed and enjoy their flying as much in the long run.You need to be realistic in progression in this industry.I did a basic cpl, was offered vfr charter and photography work before climbing into the company twins, and progressed onto the bosses twin without having to sell the idea of having 'x' amound of hours for a airline syllabus which wouldnt help that company.
It might be fustrating at times, and take longer but you will be better off flying a singe e.g. cessna with a company that has twins to progress onto later on ( when a opportunity 'within' the company truly arrises..so as not to waste countless dollars for nothing - unless of course money isnt a problem at ALL??-Ive done international Airline ops amongest other things since and reckon a sound grounding with a good company is priceless .

enough from me
outbound

[CessnaFlya]

I also agree with 404. I have been in a similar situation and opted to do the MECIR later when I have a use for it. At the moment my first job entails flying single VFR and later on, twin VFR. One downside could be perhaps that you won't have "enough" IF renewls later on, but im not sure why you would pay for an IF rating, knowing full well that your not going to use for 12 months and then have to renew it, that just seems like a waste of time and money.
Harrip, i would do enough training to get yourself a typical "first job" and go from there.

Good luck

[harrip]

Cheers guys for a lot of useful and thought provoking comments.

I've decided to park getting the twin rating until I'm the other side of gaining a CPL.

Whilst yes, it could be obtained now, I've come to the conclusion that I will prefer to target getting the CPL under my belt rather than the further endorsement.

Whilst I feel I'm getting there, I know I'll still have a reasonable amount of work on getting up to CPL standard and would like to have the necessary fundamentals well sorted before adding the extra complexity of a twin. I could push myself and try for the twin rating now, but I just feel that I'd prefer not having that extra workload to think about whilst I get to grips with the extra components for CPL - something I really want to master.

The comments made above would seem to endorse that a twin rating before CPL is not for everyone, but can be for some people. Its therefore an individual choice, and my choice will be to park it for now.

Thanks again guys - I appreciate all the comments.