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Albatross
11th Oct 2001, 08:01
From the Christchurch Press.
Probably better if I put up a post rather than attempt to reply to one. :rolleyes:

The dingo stole our airline
06 October 2001

Air New Zealand has flown full circle: 12 years after privatisation the airline is returning to public ownership as the taxpayer picks up the tab for the biggest loss in our corporate history. How did it come to this? Colin Espiner untangles the web of intrigue that surrounds the purchase of Ansett Australia – the dingo that brought down our airline.
Gordon McAdam is hopping mad. The owner of 6300 Air New Zealand shares, he has seen the value of his investment slide from $12,000 two years ago to less than $2000 at the airline's current share price.

The semi-retired Christchurch investor is taking the loss on the chin – he's made a tidy profit over the years from his share portfolio, and believes in the adage that you don't risk money you can't afford to lose. What makes him so mad, however, is how his airline has been brought to its knees and is now fighting for its survival.

He is in no doubt who's responsible: "We've been screwed by Australia Incorporated.

"Those Aussies keep underarm bowling us. And we just keep on taking it. Why isn't Ansett back up and flying again? Because it's a dog. And dogs don't fly."

So incensed was he by the histrionics of the Australian unions when Ansett folded two weeks ago that he rang the Australian television networks to complain about their footage of angry, anti-Kiwi Ansett workers demanding revenge for us trashing their airline.

"We had to agree to disagree," he says, "but I got my point across".

What point? Wasn't the crashing of Ansett Australia and Air NZ's consequent $1.4 billion loss a classic case of a Kiwi corporate cock-up? A cut-and-dried "Honey I shrunk the airline"? After all, Air NZ wrested control of Ansett from an Australian company, News Corporation, less than two years ago, and everything was all right until then. Wasn't it?

No. In reality, the Australian Government, the airline's previous owners, its managers, and the Ansett workforce are among the culprits in the witch-hunt for answers that is still continuing. McAdam is not saying the directors of Air NZ shouldn't carry the can for turning a company whose net worth tipped $2 billion in 1999 into a financial wreck now worth some $280 million and with debts of over $4b. He's more than happy to see the back of major shareholder Brierley Investments (BIL), which controlled most of the seats on the airline's board, as soon as possible.

It's abundantly clear, however, that Air NZ didn't just buy a pup when it paid $A580m plus 10 per cent in shares for the second half of Ansett Australia in February 2000 – it bought a fully fledged, 100 per cent Australian dingo. But ask why Air NZ bought it, why they paid so much, and why they were unable to turn the foundering carrier around and one enters a world of politics, ego, arrogance, and ambition. Welcome to the world of aviation.

Air New Zealand was born in 1965 out of Tasman Empire Airways, the Government-owned trans-Tasman carrier, and merged with National Airways Corporation, the domestic operation, in 1978.

Ten years later, Air New Zealand was sold by the Lange-Douglas Labour government, amid controversy. Originally planned as a 25 per cent float, it was aborted and reinstated as a 100 per cent offer, supposedly because Sir Roger Douglas wanted to achieve his $2 billion asset sales target for the 1988-89 year, and after the incoming Labour government promised not to sell any of it.

Then, while Treasury recommended selling to British Airways, Cabinet decided on a consortium led by BIL (60 per cent), plus Qantas (25 per cent), Japan Airlines (7.5 per cent), and American Airlines (7.5 per cent). Together the shareholders paid $660m – a bargain-basement price.

The result, says Air NZ's chief executive at the time, Jim Scott, was not a happy marriage.

"They were difficult times. We were a government department. We had floors and floors of people there to answer the Government's questions.

"Everything was political – where we flew, when we flew. Along comes BIL with a reputation as an asset-stripper and you have a lot of forces pulling in different directions.

"BIL and Qantas had some differences of opinion with management. In fact, everybody who was a significant shareholder presumed they knew what was best. They tended to see themselves as the owners and us as the operators. It was very much a them-and-us situation."

By the time Qantas sold its shares in 1997 for a $120m profit, Air NZ was a vastly different company to the one it had bought into. With BIL leading the way at what it did best – trimming fat – Air NZ shed more than 3000 staff, formed itself into business units and, under the guidance of Scott and his successor Jim McCrea, turned the airline's focus onto inbound tourism.

Air NZ turned a $100m profit in its first full year of private ownership, made $61m the next, lost almost $20m in 1991, and then climbed to a peak of $286m profit in the mid '90s. Operating profits then halved from 1995 to 1998 and return on shareholders' funds plunged from 20.4 per cent to 7.3 per cent.

But it was still making money. In 1991, Air NZ was flying 4.8 million passengers a year. By the time it fully bought Ansett in 2000, it was carrying 7.8 million. Seat capacity had doubled, as did revenue passenger kilometres.

While costs were down and more people were flying on the airline, there was only so much business Air NZ could do without looking across the Tasman.

Since the days of Norman Geary, Air NZ's general manager during the early '80s, Air NZ had been negotiating for rights to fly within Australia, but without success. This was despite a wholly Australian-owned airline, Ansett New Zealand, flying our skies since 1987 – granted permission by the New Zealand Government without a quid pro quo.

The Australian Government, while pocketing dividends it made from Qantas's Air NZ shareholding, was well aware of the head start the privatised Air NZ had made over its own carriers, Qantas and Australian Airlines.

In 1994, days before a single aviation market took effect that would have given Air NZ the same access to Australia that Ansett New Zealand enjoyed here, Canberra cancelled the deal.

The Brereton Fax, as it is now known, (Transport Minister Laurie Brereton faxed his New Zealand counterpart Maurice Williamson with the news the deal was off) arrived just as Qantas was about to enter a crucial share float.

Air NZ then attempted to buy a stake in Qantas itself but lost out to British Airways. It then offered the Australian Government $400m for domestic carrier Australian Airlines. The Government opted for Qantas's offer of the same amount – essentially selling the airline to itself.

In 1996, Air NZ took the only option it had left – buying 50 per cent of another Australian carrier, Ansett, for $A540m, although management control and most of the seats on its board remained in the hands of its Australian owners, News Corporation.

So far so good. Ansett was a good buy because along with Qantas it operated a duopoly within Australia, with almost 90 per cent of all passenger air traffic. This protected situation didn't change until Air NZ made its ill-fated purchase of the second half of Ansett early in 2000. Then, with Ansett out of Australian ownership, the Australian Government relaxed its protectionist policies, allowing cut-price competitors Impulse and Virgin Blue into the domestic market.

The entry of Virgin Blue in particular proved catastrophic for the Air NZ-owned Ansett, which was simply not equipped to compete with a low-cost carrier. According to Air NZ documents obtained by The Press, Ansett's market share fell from 54 per cent to 39 per cent within a year. Eighty-five per cent of Virgin and Impulse's business came from Ansett. Ansett's results for the year ended December 2000 were down 70 per cent.

Those who work at Air NZ – staff, management, and members of the board – are bitter at the treatment meted out to the airline by the Australian Government. An Air NZ director, who spoke to The Press on the condition of anonymity, says: "We made an assumption that was one bridge too far, no-one can dispute that. But the Australian Government's shifting of the goalposts made life extremely difficult.

"They created an utterly impossible trading environment for this company ... the malign attitude, or at least indifference, of the Australian Government made life extremely difficult for Air New Zealand."

Dick Smith, electronics entrepreneur and a former chairman of Australia's Civil Aviation Safety Authority, says Ansett managers could have saved over $A1b by supporting reforms of Australia's aviation industry, and that both Ansett and Qantas were highly inefficient and resistant to change.

"Instead of enthusiastically adopting reform, the managements of Ansett and Qantas chose to raise fares and slug the public," Smith says.

"They had a complete lack of understanding about the need for reform. I had meetings with the most senior managers of the airlines and explained that if the highly unionised, very expensive air-traffic control and regulatory systems Australia has had in place since the 1940s remained, they simply would not have a business in the future.

"I think all they have wanted to do was go back to the good old days of a comfortable two-airline policy. Now, through their stupidity, they have gone one better."

Jim Scott points out that no-one forced Air NZ to try to do business in Australia. "We all know the Australian market is difficult: less flexible, more regulated. You hope that will change, but you don't rely on it."

As far as Scott is concerned, the Air NZ board has no-one but itself to blame for its current predicament: "All the comments I hear sound more like excuses than answers.

"People are saying Air NZ was unlucky, but the other side of the coin is that they failed to make the necessary management changes and then got caught by a series of tidal waves, and they weren't able to respond."

Tidal waves, bolts from the blue – whatever your metaphor, Air NZ was certainly struck by a series of calamities soon after buying the rest of Ansett. But were they really acts of God? Didn't the Air NZ board know what it was getting into? And, if it did, why on earth did it buy a dingo like Ansett?

At this point we should look at the Air New Zealand board – a collection of famous faces from New Zealand business, including the heads of the Business Roundtable and several banks – and ask, as Deputy Prime Minister Jim Anderton did, whether they should be entrusted with the stewardship of a corner dairy, let alone our national carrier.

Since its privatisation in 1989, BIL has been at the helm of Air NZ. The board's chairmen, until acting chair Jim Farmer was appointed earlier this year, were from BIL.

For much of Air NZ's corporate history, former BIL chairman Bob Matthew and Sir Selwyn Cushing (also BIL chairman) ruled the roost together, Matthew as Air NZ chairman and Sir Selwyn as his deputy. Sir Selwyn took over in June 1998. He was also a member of Ansett's board, from the time Air NZ bought into Ansett in 1996.

Other BIL members have included former chief executive Paul Collins (retired 2000), who presided over that company's vast losses in Thistle Hotels and was paid $5.4m when his contract was terminated. Philip Burdon was a BIL director; another, Bill Wilson, is chairman of BIL NZ Assets. BIL's chief executive, Greg Terry, was also on the board. Why is this relevant? Market watchers euphemistically say that BIL was not "a good fit" in the airline industry. It has tended to make its money as a short-term investor, an asset-stripper, a company that buys other companies and flicks them on for a profit. It is not known as a company that likes to pour capital in once it has bought an asset. But airlines generally like long-term shareholders who don't mind putting their hands in their pockets.

"BIL were New Zealand's change managers," says Jim Scott. "Whenever they got involved with companies the rate of change was enormous. They had the ability to shake up a company, and they were very good at stripping the fat out. They were always trying to push through strategies that would make short-term gains so they could get out. But that's not a very good strategy for running an airline."

It's difficult to find a broker who will be quoted on the record about BIL. Off the record most are scathing: descriptions range from "good in its day, dead from the mid-'90s" to "the absolute worst investor in the universe". True, BIL lost millions of dollars of shareholders' funds in ventures such as Molokai Ranch in Hawaii and the British-based hotel chain Thistle. But it has also made millions buying in and selling quickly for a profit: Skellerup, Wilson and Horton, Carter Holt Harvey, and Sky City are all examples.

So what stopped BIL doing the same with Air NZ? Until the mid-'90s the returns were good. And when the share price was high, there were few New Zealanders ready or able to pay what BIL wanted for its stake. BIL was also chasing Ansett as a means of raising the value of its stake. It knew Singapore Airlines was interested in buying Ansett, but if Air NZ got there first, SIA would have to buy into Air NZ instead.

Which is exactly what happened. BIL sold SIA a 17 per cent stake in Air NZ at $3 a share, immediately after Air NZ finished purchasing Ansett. To do so, Air NZ paid almost 40 per cent above what SIA had offered. BIL made a healthy profit on the transaction but has suffered along with other shareholders since. Last month BIL declared a loss of $271m for the year, including a write-down of $420m on the value of its remaining Air NZ shares.

All of which brings us to the question of due diligence. Acting chairman Jim Farmer has admitted the board did not have a proper look at Ansett's books but says it was forced to make the deal in a hurry because of pressure from Singapore Airlines.

This is despite the fact that, since Air NZ held a veto over any buyer of Ansett by way of its 50 per cent shareholding from 1996, no-one could take Ansett away without its say-so.

Macquarie Bank, Air NZ's adviser during the purchase, disagreed with the limited due diligence the company performed. Only BIL can answer whether the pressure to buy Ansett came from SIA or from BIL itself – and the company isn't talking. Sir Selwyn's office told The Press he was declining media requests for interviews on legal advice.

The resignations of Air NZ's first two chief executives of the corporate era also bear a BIL stamp. The two Jims, Scott (1988-1991) and McCrea (1991-2000), were known as a good team. Scott was the ideas man, McCrea the finisher. Scott rates McCrea "one of the best people I ever worked with" and believes McCrea could have steered Air NZ through the past 18 months intact.

Both Jims left Air NZ after disagreements with the board, and BIL in particular. On both occasions the chairman – first Matthews, then Cushing – ran the company for a lengthy interim period. But while Scott had an obvious successor in McCrea, the board was not so lucky second time around.

McCrea resigned from his $1.2m-a-year position just weeks after the purchase of the second half of Ansett went through. He won't say why, but The Press understands he left after finding out about an arrangement the board had reached with then Ansett chief executive Rod Eddington – that Eddington would replace McCrea as the new chief executive of the entire Air NZ/ Ansett group after one year.

The man who put the Ansett deal together and who had 44 years experience in the company walked; Eddington was offered the job of chief executive of British Airways. As one market analyst put it, that was "a no-brainer" for Eddington. Air NZ's board was left without a chief executive.

McCrea declined to be interviewed by The Press for this feature, saying he was still too close to Air NZ. But he did say the purchase of Ansett "could have, and should have, worked".

"It's taken an awful long time to get things done," he says. "Speed was of the essence, but speed did not occur. Am I surprised? Not necessarily."

In the event, Cushing hired Qantas No. 2 Gary Toomey to take McCrea's place. But Toomey was unable to start for almost six months. In the meantime, Cushing ran the airline himself. The hiatus was to prove crucial in Air NZ's failure over Ansett.

To say that Toomey and the clutch of Qantas executives he brought with him to Air NZ were thrown in the deep end is an understatement. In the words of one Air NZ staffer, Toomey was thrown a live hand grenade with the pin out.

The group's integration process was in tatters. Air NZ managers seconded to Melbourne were met with taunts of "F**k off Kiwi" when they attempted to suggest new ways of doing things.

"That attitude was right through the company (Ansett)," says an Air NZ manager involved in the project. "It was, `We're a great airline – **** off back to New Zealand.' The Kiwis were not welcome in Australia."

Air NZ had hoped to integrate the group's pilots but this also met a hostile response. Ansett pilots forced to attend a workshop with their Air NZ colleagues to discuss synergies within the group arrived wearing "Australian flying for Australian pilots" badges.

But while Toomey has since received death threats from Australians over the destruction of Ansett and may yet resign as Air NZ's CEO, insiders say it is impossible to blame him for the series of disasters that befell the airline this year. In fact, The Press has learned that in the nine months before Ansett folded Toomey cut $A120m from Ansett and identified $A500m more in potential savings.

He planned to slash 3000 jobs across the Tasman, including shifting the administration of Ansett's Global Rewards frequent-flier programme to Christchurch, where up to 500 jobs were to be created at Christchurch Technology Park.

He planned to cut Ansett pilots' pay, integrating their contract with Air NZ pilots on a new scale that would have seen pilots able to fly in either country. Ansett pilots' salaries would have been cut while Air NZ pilots would have received a slight increase.

Toomey also drew up a new fleet plan. Included were 19 additional aircraft for Ansett – mainly Boeing 767s and 747s, including five more jumbo jets for Ansett International, plus five more aircraft for Air NZ, and three more for its subsidiary, Freedom Air.

Toomey wanted to reduce the different types of aircraft Ansett flew, and to get rid of the carrier's troublesome old 767s. His plan hinged on the purchase of Australian cut-price carrier Virgin Blue. Toomey saw Air NZ expanding its own cut-price Freedom brand into Australia, using Virgin's network to operate a low-cost carrier in both countries.

The snag? New Air NZ shareholder Singapore Airlines had agreed to help pay for Ansett's fleet upgrade (with the first $1b due later this year) only if the Virgin purchase went through. Toomey spend six months negotiating with owner Richard Branson for the purchase of Virgin Blue for $250 million, only to have the theatrical Branson rip up what he claimed was Air NZ's cheque on national television. Ansett, Branson said, was "worth more dead than alive".

Toomey took no fewer than 16 plans for saving the Air NZ/Ansett group to the board. Yet the plan they selected – buying Virgin Blue – had no fallback option. As rumours of Ansett's financial problems grew, Air NZ was forced to disclose to the New Zealand Stock Exchange that Ansett was losing $A1.6m a day. The New Zealand Government refused to help bail out the group while Ansett remained attached, and on September 12 Ansett was placed in voluntary administration. The next day Air NZ wrote its entire investment off, declaring an annual loss of $1.4 billion – the biggest in New Zealand corporate history.

As the majority of Air NZ's board walks from the wreckage this week, passengers and taxpayers are left pondering how things have come full circle. Twelve years on from deregulation, the public is about to take a fresh stake in Air NZ, possibly as much as 80 per cent. Plans are afoot to cut routes, staff, and aircraft to deal with both the Ansett dingo and the global aviation slow-down caused by the terrorist attacks on America.

But we still have our national carrier – just. The airline is surviving on its cashflow, which is understood to be positive, although forward bookings have fallen considerably, particularly across the Tasman.

Scott says Air NZ will need to fight hard to regain its reputation and to ensure it is not marginalised by Qantas in the future. With the Government indicating it does not want to be a long term shareholder itself, the public should also beware a new attempt by the Aussie red tail to buy back in to our airline, he says.

"It was a dumb idea then and it's an even dumber idea now. We'd become the Tasmania of Australia."

Macquarie Bank analyst Arthur Lim is more optimistic. "One thing Air NZ can fall back on is its great reputation in the marketplace, earned over years and years. What it needs now is a balance sheet that can actually allow it to get through the next 18 months of turbulence."

As far as shareholder Gordon McAdam is concerned, what Air NZ needs now is a dose of nationalism, perhaps taking a leaf out of Australia's book. Fly your national carrier, he says. We're all shareholders now. Use it, or lose it. Ansett was overstaffed, its pilots overpaid, and its maintenance sloppy before Air NZ took over. Ansett Australia could have operated the same service on half the number of staff – 8000 instead of 16,000 – at the time it was put into voluntary administration.

Documents obtained by The Press show its workers were among the best rewarded in Australia. Its pilots cost $NZ91 million a year; Air NZ pilots flying the same routes and the same hours would have cost $58 million.

Particularly expensive were the company's Boeing 737 pilots – also the mainstay of the Ansett fleet. An Ansett Boeing 737 captain flying 70 hours a month (the industry norm) earned $NZ112,000 more than the New Zealand counterpart; an Ansett 767 captain earned $98,000 more, and a 747 captain $75,000 more. Over all, Ansett's fleet of 25 Boeing 737s cost the company 32 per cent more to fly than if Air NZ pilots had been in the cockpit.

Telephone surveys found waiting times to speak to an Ansett customer service representative peaked at 40 minutes. The airline's unions had set minimums of staff that could be on duty in airports. Some staff had more than 170 weeks of leave owing. Just before Air NZ's takeover of the company, all staff received an 8 per cent increase.

Ansett's financial reporting systems were so bad the airline did not know which of its routes were profitable. It operated no fewer than five different types of aircraft, including Boeing, Airbus, and British Aerospace-made planes. It had engineering bases for all aircraft types throughout Australia, each with engineers and workshops rated to work on each aircraft type. Its aircraft fleet was the second-oldest among the 50 biggest carriers.

Maintenance schedules appeared almost non-existent. Aircraft were regularly grounded after passing the limit of official tolerance (10 per cent) allowed by Australia's Civil Aviation Safety Authority (Casa) before essential maintenance was done.

Air NZ engineers say Ansett aircraft flown across the Tasman to the company's Christchurch workshops often arrived in poor condition – when their Australian counterparts agreed to release the work.

"They were flying outside the latitude (allowed by the CAA), they were flying them dangerously, and they weren't letting us repair them," one Air NZ engineer said. "When they did send one, it would arrive with seven Ansett engineers rather than just one. We had all these guys here on jollies, going skiing and basically wasting money."

On one occasion no fewer than 12 Ansett aircraft were required to have major scheduled servicing at the same time.

According to Air NZ records, the average turnaround for each service in Australia was 28 days. In New Zealand? Four days.

"Our aircraft were virtually gold-plated compared to some of the aircraft (from Ansett) we had to work on," the Air NZ engineer told The Press.

"The 767s shouldn't have been flying around – they were dangerous."

Certainly Casa had doubts about their airworthiness, grounding Ansett's entire 767 fleet in April after finding a series of irregularities in the company's maintenance procedures.

The groundings were a disaster for Ansett, costing the company at least $A20 million during the week aircraft sat on the tarmac. Worse, it did untold damage to the company's reputation and its market share, which never recovered.

Eyebrows have been raised about the nature and timing of Casa's actions. Why shut down Ansett on the eve of Easter, the longest public holiday? And how come Casa never had any concerns about Ansett's aircraft when they were in the hands of News Corporation?

"If they had been paid to deliberately sabotage the opportunity of this company to remedy some pretty slack management practices," one Air NZ insider says, "they could not have done it more effectively."

For good measure, average fuel costs for the airline rose from 1.7c per available seat kilometre to 2.2c in the past year, while the Australian dollar fell more than 10 per cent against the US – the currency of aviation.

As costs rose and revenue fell, Ansett booked operational losses of $1.6m a day since June, forcing Air NZ to write out a cheque for $180m just to cover loan payments and aircraft leases. Ansett collapsed owing its fellow business unit, the Christchurch engineering workshop, $6m for parts and labour.

This week, Air NZ agreed to pay Ansett's administrator $A150m and to write off a further $A160m in debt.

Jimmy Pop
11th Oct 2001, 08:59
*Duck*

Here it comes.........

nasa
11th Oct 2001, 09:12
Don't think I've ever seen, even here on PPRuNE, an article that contradicts itself in so many ways, and contains so many false and unsustainable statements :confused:

RedUnderTheBed
11th Oct 2001, 09:19
Great post AL but put your hard hat on - I see we've already got incoming!!
:D :D

lame
11th Oct 2001, 09:22
You don't really believe a dingo stole it, do you?

:rolleyes: :eek: ;) :D

Hooking Fell
11th Oct 2001, 09:45
...and has anyone asked the question why Ansett (as a predominantly domestic carrier) forked out A$ 50 million plus for Sydney 2000 sponsorship? :eek:

RedUnderTheBed
11th Oct 2001, 10:07
Hey H F that's a great question. I've always wondered that when QF had it, always, for free (who else would you fly to & from OZ with?).
I have the awful feeling that D was made on this side of the Tas to give ANZ market share into/out of OZ, bl**dy expensive if you ask me!

[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: Red under the Bed ]

captainschlonger
11th Oct 2001, 10:55
Albatross,

I didn't read your entire post, but I get the gist of what you're saying.

Let me put you straight. Ansett has always made good profits, and has always had to prop up other lesser profit making concerns.

The profits went out of here to keep Air NZ afloat, but even our profits weren't sufficient. Toomey, just a couple of months ago, sold off aircraft and simulators and leased them back. Where did the capital raised go? That's it - across the Tasman to support the ailing Air NZ, and for why? It still fell in a hole and has had to bailed out by the Kiwi government.

Wiley
11th Oct 2001, 11:11
Did anyone else spot the extraordinary quote in the lead article on this thread? ”Air NZ had hoped to integrate the group's pilots but this also met a hostile response. Ansett pilots forced to attend a workshop with their Air NZ colleagues to discuss synergies within the group arrived wearing "Australian flying for Australian pilots" badges.

If the incident actually occurred, given the makeup of the senior ranks of the Ansett pilot workforce post 1989, I suspect the signs should have read “"Australian flying for Australian pilots, ya’ll.”

Where, I wonder, were those noble sentiments among the same group of Australian pilots in 1989-90?

Heroes, every one of ‘em (the senior AN pilots) – with very short, or should that be ‘selective?’ memories – a trait, judging by the ‘We wuz robbed’ screams now coming from across the Tasman - (selective memories) - shared by many Kiwis.

[ 11 October 2001: Message edited by: Wiley ]

RedUnderTheBed
11th Oct 2001, 11:32
Hey Schlong, in this part of the world that means 'Big D*ck', well chosen. Either read the post or leave it alone instead of regurgitating your preconceived notions of what screwed a great ozzie airline.

Even Ansett claimed to only have made a profit for about two out of the last 10 years, the two just before ANZ bought the 2nd 50%. Bit of creative accounting from Reddy Eddy I'd say. Makes you wonder who actually stripped the assets when, recalling the surprise about leased vs (formerly) owned aircraft when the administrator got in.

Max Crit
11th Oct 2001, 11:59
Taken from Murdock's address in AD today.

" Mr Murdoch told shareholders Air NZ had blocked News Corp's bid
to expand Ansett overseas when it had been a shareholder.
"We knew very well that it had to expand, it had to expand
overseas and have US dollar earnings and foreign currency earnings," he
said.
"We had ambitions to take it on routes which we were entitled to
take, which certainly would have been profitable.
"At every point in that, Air New Zealand, as a 50 per cent
shareholder, blocked us."

I guess while this is no excuse for what's
been go'in on, if you don't feed the dingo,
it's gunna bite.

Max

RedUnderTheBed
11th Oct 2001, 12:08
How? Only 3 directors on the Board & no management input.
:confused:

From casual observation Ansett International grew quite a bit since '96 and were actually going to take over LAX-SYD-LAX from Air NZ in the summer time-table until some [miserable] american pointed out that the service was a NZ right not an Oz one. At one stage they were also going to get our RR powered B747-400s, or rumour had it.

Without specific and credible proof I'm going to consider his comments as "Well, he would say that, wouldn"t he?" material. :rolleyes:

Wiley
11th Oct 2001, 12:30
I should have added to the end of my last post: “The Kiwis ‘wuz robbed’ all right – but it wasn’t by Qantas or the Australian Government (who I don’t think are smart enough to have orchestrated such a plan).

You ‘wuz robbed’ by the man or men on the Air NZ Board who (for whatever reason), agreed to pay the ridiculous price Air NZ paid for the last 50% of the empty shell the previous owners had turned AN into over the last 20 years. (However the question must be asked: how can Air NZ now claim they didn’t know what a parlous financial state AN was in when they had already owned half of it for some years and therefore surely has full access to the books?)

There’s an old truism used by law enforcement agencies: follow the money trail. The guilty will usually be where the money went. Now where did all that money for the last 50% of AN go?

MT Edelstone56
11th Oct 2001, 16:11
Mr Mcadam
another dopey investor,probably a pilot.Should have bought $12000 in QF shares,they`d be worth $30000 now.Our valiant Transport Minister surely did.

Out of interest,how does QF 737 pay compare to Air NZ/Freedom?Dixon could use Kiwi crews like he uses Impulse crews,on those unprofitable routes(milk runs between all those little Sth Pacific nations).Think we have found AirNZ`s new niche market when QF inevitably expands.

RIVER1
11th Oct 2001, 17:27
You might be right Al I,ve seen a Kiwi bird try to eat one.Lets face it we are all just pawns in politics and as usual small investors and workers suffer.

WalterMitty
12th Oct 2001, 06:54
Lies,damned lies and statistics!

The APA were never "forced" to go to the integration meetings. My sources tell me the ANZ pilots( of which there are three distinct and separate groups) were the ones stalling the discussions because they wanted all the expansion and the APA pilots were trying to stop that. The Kiwis had the attitude that we took over you so we'll do all the flying thanks!.
In terms of the salaries, the Kiwi pilots on seeing the brevity of our contract and doing a few quick comparisons between attendee's determined that there wasn't really anything in it once all the Kiwi add ons were allowed for compared to the AN pilots purely hourly pay. By my calculation of the Kiwi 737 contract a pilot gets over 600nz extra for working an RDO. We got zero extra for that, only the normal hour rate.

Skol
12th Oct 2001, 06:55
This is a very interesting article and I hope B69, Boeing Belly and others read it. I had a CHC engineer tell me that AN's a/c on arrival at CHC had so few hours left that if there was a diversion to WLG the a/c would have been AOG.

Dazza 1234
12th Oct 2001, 07:15
Dasha.

Please read the rules to which agreed as a part of your posting rights.

W

[ 12 October 2001: Message edited by: Woomera ]

What does the truth hurt ?

Whinging South Sea Island Poms !

[ 13 October 2001: Message edited by: Dassha ]

Albatross
12th Oct 2001, 07:19
Two things I extracted from the article were that:
1) The Australians were fools for tearing up open skies and closing the door on Air NZ flying domestic in Oz when Ansett were already across the ditch.
2) The New Zealanders were fools for attempting to buy an airline they couldn't afford and didn't know how to run and especially when their Oz consultants told them to stay well away. (What do you pay consultants for?????)

As a bond trader once told me "there's a fool in every market if you can't see the fool it's because you are the fool...."

And now we are all the poorer for it.

Skol
12th Oct 2001, 08:00
Dassha,
This a very unsavory subject to get into and one I notice a few Aussies have brought up. Perhaps you might like to go to www.airsafe.com (http://www.airsafe.com) and check up on hull loss, accident rates of major Australian airlines and learn a thing or two.

Spuds McKenzie
12th Oct 2001, 11:15
Dassha,

You apparently haven't been in here for long, but just to let you know: Someone else recently got sinbinned for making inappropriate comments concerning the Mt. Erebus tragedy.

YOU BETTER NOT SAY ANY MORE!

[ 12 October 2001: Message edited by: Spuds McKenzie ]

RedUnderTheBed
12th Oct 2001, 12:45
WalterM, as I've said before on this forum; the brevity of the contract, or other wise is immaterial. Hour for hour AN pilots were more expensive than ANZ ones, THAT has never been disputed by any pilot group.

As for working RDOs; if you work a RDO in ANZ, thus denying junior pilots promotion opportunities, you're put in the same class as that stuff you'r always stepping round in the streets of London. It's very rarely paid.

Dassha, best stick to sane and rationale debate instead of sh*t st*rr*ng cr@p like you're keen on, otherwise we might not discover why Ansett actually went to the wall and Air NZ nearly did, & still might, or is that what you want? Dredging up the sort of stuff you & I just did is futile, but if you insist look out, I haven't even checked out Skol's link yet.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[ 12 October 2001: Message edited by: Woomera ]

Girt_bar
12th Oct 2001, 14:48
Can someone explain this please?

Ansett Engineers:
They are required to work 38 hrs per week, 1.3 weeks long service leave per year.
Four days on, five days off
No work in hangar between 0200 & 0600.
Air NZ man hr cost is 60-70 NZD per hr,
Ansett man hr cost is 120-145 NZD per hr.

Are these stats true or has my source got it wrong?

[ 12 October 2001: Message edited by: Girt_bar ]

B'ar
12th Oct 2001, 17:22
Girt bar heavy Maint and line maint use to work 24 hours. As for the pay difference there was some union carry on 6 months ago when Kiwi sheet metal workers came to BN but the difference was something like $10 an hour but I am unsure of the exact figure. Standard shift was 4 days on 4 days off reflecting 4 days day shift, 4 night . A Diference of $50 an hour i find very hard to believe. Like all of these situations everyone is throwing the crap (whether it is true or not) ie AN domestic marginally more expensive than NZ while AN international cheaper than NZ. In the end none of it matters as almost all of the AN pilots are out of work and the NZ FOs have to add a 0 to the end of any command upgrade time frame(good luck fellas hope it turns out to be quicker than that but I don't think so) . Red under the Bed chip off the old shoulder son, time to move on.

RedUnderTheBed
12th Oct 2001, 17:37
I take the point B'ar but if you don't rattle my cage I lie in the corner giving the occasional grunt!
When all this started I couldn't resist chucking the cr@p back, in my nature I guess.

Good post. Wish more of your countrymen would take the time to present the facts as they know them, as you have done and I have tried on other threads as well as this one and we may actually achieve something here instead of just p#ss#ng each other off.
Regards

:)

Clive
13th Oct 2001, 02:39
I had a little dummy spit recently, which saw me promise to keep clear of this forum because I felt that I was getting far to emotional and reverting to personal attacks, which I deplore, and which I vowed not to do when I agreed to the forum “terms and conditions” at registration. After a brief sabbatical I have decided to make the occasional post when I feel as though I may have something constructive to contribute. So my 2 cents worth….

There is little doubt as to the importance of conflicting views in this place otherwise the forum would simply become a mutual admiration society where we would all pat each other on the back for our contribution, and each topic would quickly fade out with a greatly reduced number of posts than is evident in this topic, for example. With the risk of boring the pants off some of you I would like to cite the work of Prof. Belbin of Cambridge University. He is responsible for the “Belbin Self-perception inventory” (of which I have made brief mention on another forum in recent months). This “quiz” is not unlike the physc. tests we have done as aircrew, from time to time, but is simply designed to identify one’s natural skills that can be brought to a “team”. Belbin teaches us that without most of the 9 defined roles being represented in a team then the output produced by that team is at best equal to, and at worst less than, the sum of all the individual inputs and thus team output is ineffective.

I personally like to think of the PPRuNe forum as a meeting site of professionals who in fact form a “team” discussion that has the ability to contribute some important information and views on our industry. To gain effectiveness from this team work the role known as “shaper” (one of those 9 referred to above) MUST be present. In fact Belbin argues that ALL of the 9 roles should be present to achieve the best outcome. A person showing a natural tendency towards being a shaper is normally one who is outgoing and dynamic with drive and a readiness to challenge complacency, self-deception and the general inertia of the argument. Sadly however they also tend to exhibit a proneness to provocation, irritation and impatience. And don’t we see a little of the latter traits here at times?

So to my point for today…. We must all welcome views that are contrary to our own. In fact we should strive to find them, so that the “argument” utilizes a consideration of all possible angles, and views, which may even mean that at the end of it we are all a little more enlightened and our industry is better for the experience. It is my view that flight departments and governments, in this country at least, fail in this respect. They set up their boys clubs by surrounding themselves with like minds. The result…. quick easy solutions to problems and issues that the team are bound to address but these results are more often than not flawed (at least to some degree) because of the absence of most of the 9 “Belbin” roles.

Lets not follow their lead…. lets show the way forward by continuing our active debates, search for conflicting ideas, respect each others views and most importantly don’t allow our debates to sink into farce by playing the person rather than the issue. Personal attacks can only weaken a reasoned debate.

Cheers... :)

Spuds McKenzie
13th Oct 2001, 02:45
Clive,

You have my vote.

lame
13th Oct 2001, 03:46
Exactly what I have been trying to promote also, as much debate as possible, even heated sometimes, but with NO personal attacks............

:)

Albatross
13th Oct 2001, 07:08
I agree too. But also the purpose of my thread wasn't to show disparities between the pay scales but rather to provide another point of view. And annoyingly, for a press article, it leaned a little too much on the emotive. There is much debate about the "expensive" cost of Australian pilots and engineers yet only a few have mentioned that the Aussies may merely be earning an amount equivalent to international pay for their profession while the Air NZ pay and conditions lag behind. And the more they lag, the more the company as any other based in NZ will grasp at lifestyle over renumeration to retain employees. How many Air NZ drivers if offered leave without pay will head overseas in the next six months to earn considerably better money doing the same job? It is a fact, though sad, that there is a growing divide between the two countries in terms of wealth/cost/standard of living and therefore such comparisons may no longer be valid.

Woomera
13th Oct 2001, 07:18
I deleted the following from Dassha's post in this thread as I could not get comfortable with its direction and tenor and I have been keen to keep the 'cousins' playing with rather than fighting over the toys in the sand pit. :D


Air New Zealand - a short history.

Operated from 1939 to 1965 as TEAL, ie Tasman Empire Airways Limited.
The airline was Nationalised 1961 and absorbed the domestic carrier NAC in 1978.
The company was privatised in 1989.
Until the early sixties an operation around the South Pacific was operated
using flying boats and then Douglas DC6 aircraft.

Around 1960 the major airlines in Australasia, QANTAS, TAA, ANSETT-ANA and
TEAL all acquired LOCKHEED L188 "ELECTRA" 4 engined propjet aircraft. The
three Australian airlines had no major problems with the L188 and Ansett
used them until the late 1980s.
TEAL/Air New Zealand destroyed one of their Electras in March 1965, when
the crew on a training flight apparently was not able to maintain the
required air speed for the situation into which they had put the aircraft.

The airline next purchased, or leased, Douglas DC8s, one of the first 4
engined jet aircraft. Most operators of the DC8 had few problems.
Air New Zealand was an exception. They destroyed one in July 1966, again on
a crew training flight, and again apparently due to incorrect operating
procedures.

Air New Zealand then set out to join the "big boys" in the 1970s by
buying/leasing Douglas DC10 aircraft, a wide bodied aircraft with a
capacity of over 300 passengers.
The airline had no more publicly known major problems until November 29
1979 when ZK-NZP, an Air New Zealand DC-10-30, crashed into the side of
Mt.Erebus, Antarctica, killing all on board.

Three separate judicial inquiries were conducted into the disaster. The
first placed a large part of the culpability with airline management and
accused management of presenting 'an orchestrated litany of lies' to the
inquiry. This result did not sit well with the government of the day and
another inquiry was set up. This examination duly found that its
predecessor was in error and the Captain of the aircraft was mainly at
fault.

A new government required another investigation. This third legal
oversight into the accident expressed the view that both of its
predecessors were partially right and spread the blame around.
Only three facts are certain;
· Mount Erebus was where it was meant to be.
· ZK-NZP was where it was not meant to be.
· Air New Zealand killed hundreds of people.

We now move on to the present situation, where once again Air New Zealand
has attempted to play "big boys" games by taking over an airline outside
their home Islands.

The result is a disaster for many thousands of people
who had a right to expect an at least competent management.

History shows us that:

1. TEAL/Air New Zealand attempted to operate sophisticated turbine powered
aircraft, the L188, and destroyed one.

2. Air New Zealand attempted to operate large 4 engined jet aircraft, the
DC8, and destroyed one.

3. Air New Zealand attempted to operate wide body jet aircraft, the DC10,
and destroyed one.

4. Air New Zealand attempted to take over a large non- New Zealand airline,
ANSETT, and destroyed one.

Should Air New Zealand as a result of being forced to pay debts, be reduced
to only operating it's domestic services, this could well improve air
safety in the region and may save the tax payers of Australia and New
Zealand from being caught again.

NEED I SAY ANY MORE ?


However after a nights sleep a read of Clives post and a rereading and whilst I am still apprehensive, it cannot be denied that it is a view based on one PPRuNers collation of some facts and its return is not intended to reignite the Trans Tasman Wars or take sides.

I am not here to be the "shaper" that Clives 'Belbin' describes, unless that task is to try and keep it civil.
I should not have to but will do so.

The direction of the debate, the lessons learned and avoidance of becoming a "boys club" belongs to you guys.

Spuds McKenzie
13th Oct 2001, 07:23
A very good point, Albatross. Wages in NZ are simply appalling. Average wage 30k NZ pesos (before tax!). If you earn 80k gross, you are amongst the top 5% of income earners (wow!). Prices for basics (i.e. bread, milk) continuously go up.

:(

Sir Shiraz
13th Oct 2001, 08:13
Air NZ plays blame game from the SMH, Age & West Australian



Picture of Sir Sell one


(Caption)
Hands on ... former chairman Sir Selwyn Cushing sacked all the top Ansett management when Air NZ took over News Corp's stake. Photo: Jessica Shapiro


The airline's witch hunt has focused on everyone but themselves. Geoffrey Thomas reports.


"The palpably false sections of evidence which I heard, I am compelled to say, were a predetermined plan of deception. They were very clearly part of an attempt to conceal a series of disastrous administrative blunders and so, in regard to the particular items of evidence to which I have referred, I am forced reluctantly to say that I had to listen to an orchestrated litany of lies."

Certainly not a commentary on the trans-Tasman slanging match that has erupted over the collapse of Ansett, but instead, the late Justice Peter Mahon's chilling verdict in the Royal Commission into how Air New Zealand management tried to cover up their responsibility into the loss of a DC10 which flew into Mount Erebus in the Antarctic in 1979, claiming 257 lives.

That stunning criticism of the airline sent then Prime Minister Robert Muldoon into a rage and Air New Zealand management, who had always blamed the dead pilot, rebuked Justice Mahon and his report was set aside by the Court of Appeal.

Incredibly, it took New Zealanders nearly 20 years to accept the truth, when in August 1999 then Transport Minister Maurice Williamson tabled the Mahon Report in New Zealand Parliament and rightly claimed the report was brilliant investigative work.

"Justice Peter Mahon was a true hero," Mr Williamson said.

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But 22 years after that tragic crash, there are not too many heroes, just villains in Australia, according to Air New Zealand's acting chairman Dr Jim Farmer and former chairman Sir Selwyn Cushing.

This week they have laid the blame for the crash of Ansett on the airline's former 50 per cent shareholder, News Corp, its major competitor Qantas and the Australian Government, which they claim worked with Qantas to prevent a rescue bid by Singapore Airlines.

In an affidavit signed on Monday and faxed to the Melbourne Federal Court hearing into a settlement between Ansett and Air New Zealand, Dr Farmer said News had run down both Ansett operations and maintenance and then refused to allow normal due diligence before its sale.

"Over time it was discovered that there were serious deficiencies in basic Ansett management and reporting systems, including aircraft maintenance processes," he claimed.

But facts simply do not appear to support Dr Farmer's claims. Dr Farmer, a Queen's Counsel in both Australia and New Zealand, is possibly not aware that when Air New Zealand first purchased a 50 per cent stake in Ansett, in late 1996 from TNT, it refused to commit further funds early in 1997 to buy new Boeing 767-300s, which News wanted.

Certainly News and TNT share responsibility for the state of Ansett in 1996 but Air New Zealand's involvement just made matters much worse, say airline analysts.

"And if Air New Zealand was refused permission to perform due diligence before they purchased News' stake, then they were grossly negligent to proceed," said one analyst.

"It defies belief that they didn't know what they were buying," says Jeanette Ward of global ratings agency Standard & Poor's.


And analysts lay most of the blame for Ansett's downfall on Sir Selwyn, who sacked all the top Ansett management when Air New Zealand finally took over News' stake in June last year. The airline was without a chief executive for six critical months, when fuel prices were soaring and new airlines were starting fare wars. Sir Selwyn points the finger squarely at Qantas.

"I have never underestimated the lobbying power of Qantas; they are fantastic in Canberra," he told TV One in New Zealand on Wednesday night. He claimed that crucial groundings of Ansett planes earlier this year were partly due to lobbying by Qantas of the Australia Civil Aviation Safety Authority.

It is, however, an indisputable fact that critical Boeing service bulletins were overlooked and a pilot's seven-page letter leaked to this paper in April told a chilling tale of an airline in chaos.

Sir Selwyn also blamed prevarications by Wellington and Canberra for killing the bid by Singapore Airlines to rescue Air New Zealand and Ansett. That assertion was countered by NZ Finance Minister Michael Cullen who said that any rescue plan would have taken time.

"I'm sure many shareholders would be surprised to see Sir Selwyn essentially saying that he, and the board of Brierley Investments really have no responsibility for what has happened at all and that they have completely clean hands."

Dr Farmer has also joined in the chorus of Qantas bashing saying that the airline used predatory pricing to weaken Ansett.

"But everyone knows that Impulse Airlines and Virgin Blue started the fare wars, not Qantas," a Sydney analyst said.

"Ansett could never survive a fare war, and Air NZ purchased News' stake after Virgin announced its Australian plans."

Dr Farmer also took a swipe at Transport Minister and Deputy Prime Minister John Anderson's involvement, saying that he was informed of the seriousness of Ansett's position at a meeting on April 10 and told the situation was getting worse.

Yet, when the Qantas proposal to take a stake in Air New Zealand was made public in late May, Dr Farmer was singing a very different tune.

"We are not under any pressure to complete the process of assessing this proposal and other options available," Dr Farmer told a press conference on May 30.

And then chief executive Gary Toomey added some more soothing words for nervous investors. "I am disturbed at the misinterpretation of us seeking a government cash bailout, being strapped for cash and desperate for outside help.

"Nothing could be further from the truth," he said at the time.

"The company is under no pressure that requires us to deviate from the strategic development program that we have been pursing."

But, according to Mr Cullen, that strategic development program was based entirely around buying Virgin Blue, which had, along with Impulse Airlines before it merged with Qantas, slashed fares on prime routes in the eastern states.

The conduct of the trading of Ansett and the statements of some of Air New Zealand's management during its final months are now under scrutiny of the Australian Securities and Investments Commission and the New Zealand Stock Exchange.

At an October 24 meeting with Ansett's administrators, Dr Farmer denied that directors of Air New Zealand had ever acted recklessly, dishonestly or without due care in their management of the Australian subsidiary.

But in an affidavit that was read to the Federal Court this week, Ansett administrators Mark Mentha and Mark Korda, from Andersen, said that advice provided by their counsel, Leon Zwier of Arnold Bloch Leibler, before the meeting on Sunday, September 23, had suggested that the directors of Ansett may theoretically have breached their duties to the Ansett group.

They said that Mr Zwier had told them that the Ansett/Air NZ directors may have breached the provisions of the Trade Practices Act 1974 concerning misleading and deceptive conduct.

Perhaps only another royal commission into Air New Zealand and Brierley Investment's conduct will extract the truth of who really flew Ansett into a very different mountain - a mountain of debt.

The West Australian


null

max rate
13th Oct 2001, 09:10
Um, Dassha. QF attempted to operate a 744 into BKK.......and destroyed one.....what is your point? :rolleyes:

RedUnderTheBed
13th Oct 2001, 10:42
Er, Woomera, you've reinstated what you excised from Dasha's post, why don't you reinstate what I posted in response?
Fair's fair. :confused:

Far Canard
13th Oct 2001, 14:19
Comparing Ansett's costs with Air NZ's is a waste of time. Both airlines were/are fat pigs with plenty of fat cats riding their backs.

Ansett went down because the Aussie public had a cheaper option in the form of Impulse and Virgin.

Now we have to listen to the Air NZ excuses about how the Aussie government and Qantas helped in the Ansett/Air NZ demise.

About time Air NZ found out what it is like to be on the receiving end. They have probably forgotten how they shut down Kiwi International using similar big boy tactics.

Those who live by the sword die by the sword

Surmount
13th Oct 2001, 17:07
Girt_Bar

Your comment about engineers not working between 0200-0600, has two sides to it.

The time period of the body's lowest performance, worst decision making skills, lowest motivation in the day is between 2400-0600. Thus engineers working between these hours could very well be a safety issue, I know some airlines will not conduct any what they deem "Critical" maintenance between these hours. Although they still conduct other maintenance between these hours.

CAO Flight and Duty times
Pilots that work into this time period also get extra time off. The orders are encouraging employers not to work pilots during the period 2200-0600 by way of penalising the employer by not being able to have their staff back for a few more hours. But is done to the same end, trying to keep as many pilots on the ground as is effectivley possible, for the same reasons stated above.

The other point to this is i'm sure that engineers wouldn't have minded not having to work between these hours getting to sleep in.

Cheers


:D :D

dingo084
13th Oct 2001, 17:12
I didn't steal anybodies airline ! :D

ding

Woomera
13th Oct 2001, 18:35
Red
Apologies for that I would have if I could have found it when I just looked.
I did not mean to be one sided :( and I thought I had left the relevant bits in any case.

Albatross
13th Oct 2001, 19:40
Woomera, you stand on very shaky ground to call Dassha's post an interpretation of facts. I enjoy hearing all sides of the debate and believe in free speech but was appalled to read the list of accidents attributed to Air NZ and the way in which the particulars of each fatal accident were summed up in a few sentences. Lives were lost, accident reports were written and hopefully the aviation community learned. I'll only mention the loss of the DC-8 which was during a training procedure Douglas Aircraft had demonstrated and oked to trainers at Air NZ on conversion. It remains a classic case of why simulators are so valuable. Please take time out from dragging this topic on a downward spiral to ascertain the facts from accident reports rather than utilising broad generalisations that serve no purpose. And then I shall hopefully be the wiser for it.

Barbers Pole
14th Oct 2001, 01:14
Red Under the Bed, I look forward to your reply, post it again.


Walter, Dosn't really matter how the respective contracts between the 2 outfits are interpurted the BOTTOM line is how much physical CASH each outfit paid it's pilots and the Ansett guys were banking a truck load more than us for less work!! and son thats not in dispute!! Even our management admitted that!
You'd be hard pressed to find our guys working on a day off because we have generally been worked to the LIMIT on our days on!!

Woomera, sure you aren't subtlety taking sides? I hope not.

RedUnderTheBed
14th Oct 2001, 01:38
W apologies accepted, I've lost it too, sorry BP but what I said is probably best left unsaid as some of those involved could well be reading this thread, not so with Dasha's tripe I'm afraid, and the thrust of the post was left in don't go there 'cos we've got dirt on you too!!
BP from memory it wasn't 'our' management who said AN pilots earned truckloads more than us, it was their's, "Their contract - your pay" was TJ's dream, remember? Despite that, Air NZ pilots were still busier, the AN contract didn't so much allow greater productivity, pretty much controlled by tighter safety regs I think, but control of the individual pilot, firstly through no seniority list to speak of, "If you have them by the b@lls, their hearts and minds will follow." Richard Milhouse Nixon.

RedUnderTheBed
14th Oct 2001, 01:53
I'm going to take the liberty of posting something I've floated on a companion thread which no-one has picked up on. It's a kite fly really but would like some informed input as it might help clarify government motives, on both sides of the ditch to get to the bottom of it. I'm no expert on it and some of my assertions in it may be blind wrong but I am puzzled and would like to see more input.

"Aren't we forgetting here that, like it or not, governments are inextricably involved in international air transport through that teenzy weenzy little detail called BILATERAL RIGHTS. They are not airline rights they are national rights owned by the country itself, but exercised by its designated carrier or carriers.
What exercised the NZ Gov's mind, ever since BIL effectively became a Singapore company instead of a kiwi one, wasn't what it thought was overseas ownership but what the countries with whom we had bilaterals thought was overseas ownership.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if someone like Japan or USA or whoever cottoned on that Air NZ wasn't actually a NZ owned air carrier, as required by the bilaterals, not only could they have screwed Air NZ but also NZ's international air links as well. Not a pleasant prospect for a small country who's nearest neighbour is 1,000 miles away.
Allowing SIA increased ownership, no matter how attractive, was a classic Catch 22 - the kiwi government has been damned because it didn't allow it and could equally well have been damned if it did.
What the answer is I don't know, but the question has to be asked and is well worth discussion. It certainly highlights the danger of 'Designated Carrier' privatisation, QF be warned, and allowing them the freedom of the market also, as has been pointed on this side of the Tas, includes 'Freedom to Fail.'
Perhaps the answer lies in canning bilats and allowing 'Open Skies' all round. It would certainly allow increased freedom of ownership and the carriers of small nations like NZ access to sufficient capital in order to carry on their business, the REAL Achilles Heel, as we can now see, of a privately owned Air NZ. But do we actually want that and how do we regulate, or police, the operators?
Comments please.
:)

RedUnderTheBed
14th Oct 2001, 04:53
Hey Dassha WRT your edit of your very first post on PPrune; a brief lesson on your nation's history.

Pom is a truncation of POME which stands for "Prisoner of Mother England", Australia's first boat people.

So what in your original post would hurt whingeing Australians?

A brief lesson about my nation's history, our original boat people were all volunteers! We declined POMEs but we took Afghans, might be a message there somewhere! :p

Woomera
14th Oct 2001, 06:15
Albatross

I'm damned if I do and damned if I dont :D

I hoped I was careful to point out that it was not my intention to to comment on the veracity of the contents any post or to take sides.
I reinstated the post exactly because I did not on reflection feel that it was my place to judge it.
As you correctly point out it was an "interpretation of facts" by one PPRuNer.
It is for you, if you choose, to discuss, debate or correct if necessary "the facts" or surrounding issues.
If there is a downward spiral it is because of the standard of debate, not, hopefully, anything that I may be able to contribute.

If I may reiterate the last paragraph of my post
However after a nights sleep a read of Clives post and a rereading and whilst I am still apprehensive, it cannot be denied that it is a view based on one PPRuNers collation of some facts and its return is not intended to reignite the Trans Tasman Wars or take sides.

I am not here to be the "shaper" that Clives 'Belbin' describes, unless that task is to try and keep it civil.
I should not have to but will do so.

The direction of the debate, the lessons learned and avoidance of becoming a "boys club" belongs to you guys.



It is your job to take Dassha to task not mine. :) NO kicking or gouging allowed :D

Albatross
14th Oct 2001, 10:57
W,

I think that's an utter waste of time and your actions don't help the Forum but I'll put up a copy of the accident report when I can find it and let others decide.

Das Pferd
14th Oct 2001, 21:02
Oh Groooaaan this thread has been lost!

grusome
15th Oct 2001, 15:38
Commie,
If you're going to espouse expertise in foreign history, better get it right, else your credibility in all subjects is lost!
1. Your POME explanation is by no means universally accepted, the pomegranate derivation being usually paraded in dictionaries.
2. The Brits were certainly not the first boat people, that title goes back 40,000 plus years to those who were arguably the first over-the-horizon sea-navigators ever.
Good luck with your studies
Gru

RedUnderTheBed
15th Oct 2001, 23:55
Ooooh.. touchy aren't we Gru. Something we'd rather not be reminded of.
So? I was one out, not sure about the 40,000yrs either, press the 0 key once to often did we?
I always thought the first Australians walked it anyway?
:p

429 CJ
16th Oct 2001, 02:26
Red, you are starting to wear a little thin, little man.

*Fact: 19.7 million Australians couldn't give a rats RRR's about who or what was a descendant of a convict, Got that?

*Fact: Your wonderful homeland (whilst I understand a wonderful place to live), may find-out how things pan-out very soon when there is a (possible) collapse of a (the) major player in your airline industry, with the associated follow-on effects in trade and tourism industries and other silly other things such as your nations ecconomy and employment are affected.

*Fact: People ARE NOT TOUCHY ABOUT THEIR ANCESTRY!!!!!! They just tend to react when someone (and there is more than ONE of you) who has had absolutely nothing constructive to say or add to a debate or conversation, pipes-up (or bleats in your case ;) ) with the same crud that they think will inflame or get a reaction because you possibly get some enjoyment out of annoying others. Childish acts such as those only serve to reduce yours (and others who join you) credibility and standing.

There is a "thing" (ie; it gives us the Tom Titts) Australians have about something called "Little Man Syndrome". The little man always make the most noise, for they fear they wont get noticed otherwise. I trully feel that you and a few others need to......

GROW-UP LITTLE MAN. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[ 15 October 2001: Message edited by: 429 CJ ]

429 CJ
16th Oct 2001, 03:12
Red, and to a lot of others who really have no idea what they are having a go at, please read this article that has been put together by our national broadcaster, and learn from it.


The Origins of the Australian Aboriginal People (http://www.abc.net.au/quantum/stories/s262.htm)


Your own country's track record with the Maori is nothing special, either. :rolleyes:

[ 15 October 2001: Message edited by: 429 CJ ]