JAR ATPL or SA ATPL??

[kd28]

Hi,

I have recently decided to turn my passion for flying into a career and I am now at a cross road needing to decide which route to go.

Here is a little background about myself and my intentions:

I am German, currently living in London(UK) but grew up in South Africa(SA citizen). I hold a JAR PPL licence. I am also thinking of returning to SA in year or so and would really like to work there as a pilot. Going back to SA will not necessarily be permanent as I want to keep my options open.

Now, my recent enquiries with CAA of SA have shown me that a "conversion" from JAR to SA is not possible, and that I will only receive a validation for licence and that they don't recognize a "frozen ATPL" altogether.

So I am hoping that you guys can shed some light or advise on the following:

1.) Which ATPL should I go for (SA or JAR, I would prefer JAR as I can start now and can do it via correspondence)?
2.) How will a "frozen" JAR ATPL be recognized in SA?
3.) When I initially contacted the CAA in SA and they mentioned that a validation of a foreign licence is only valid for the type it is endorsed in...Now does this mean Single or Multi or the actual planes that I have flown?
4.) I will definitely also do a FI course and thought it might be an advantage to also hold a JAR FI rating to teach JAR course in SA.
5.) What are the chances of a South-African/German...fluent in English, German and Afrikaans to land any kind of pilot work in SA?

I know that these are quite a few questions and I would really appreciate any answers, feedback, ideas or inspirations.

Thanks
KD28

[B200Drvr]

KD28
1) JAR if you ever intend on returning and working in Europe.(then come to SA and if you intend on staying, do the SACAA Comm & ATP)
2)Frozen ATPL has no recognition in SA at all. It is a fancy way of saying you have completed your ATP writtens.
3)Validation covers anything you have flown in the country of issue of your original license, and that is endorsed in your logbook by said country. You cannot add any type,catagory or class without first adding it to your original license.
4)JAR FI rating again has little worth in SA as they do not teach JAR courses here yet. SACAA do not recognise foreign FI ratings on validations except in very exceptional circumstances.
5)Getting pilot work in SA goes about hours and experience, it is very different to Europe where people pay for A320 ratings with 250hrsTT and maybe get a job. With that time in SA you will be looking at a C210 if youre lucky somewhere in the Bundus. With 1000 hrs you are looking at C208 or B200 p2 if you have the ratings, also in darkest Africa, with 2000TT you could start to beleive you have a shot at the airlines.
Good luck in your endevour and keep at it what ever you decide.

[kd28]

Thanks for the quick reply B200Drvr! I really appreciate it.

So does this mean if I arrive in SA with a JAR ”frozen" ATPL it will be worth nothing?? Not even for a commercial validation?

And rgd the validation what rating what would you recommend to get before arriving in SA bearing in mind that I am quite happy to fly in the bundu :) and have no desire yet to fly for an airline? I am just doing the "ATPL" to keep my options as wide open as possible.

My initial thoughts of flying in SA were in line with instruction work or bundu bashing or anything really.

Rgds
KD28

[organ donor]

You can get a Comm validation on the back of your "frozen" ATPL, but that only lasts as long as your JAR is valid for (medical/LPC etc).
You cannot validate a foreign instructor rating. An instructors rating requires a SA CPL, 20 odd hours of instruction, and a couple more exams.
If you have the JAR, you will find the SA exams pretty straight forward. My advise is get the JAR, come to SA, sit the exams straight away, do the flight test, and get the SA CPL. If you get the SA CPL first you will struggle with the JARs.

[Jelly Doughnut]

kd
Have a word with Steve Goodrick at 43 Air School, Port Alfred. They are preparing for their first JAR-approved course, for a group of Irish airline-sponsored cadets. They will need JAR-licensed flying instructors and I'm told that a few of their instructors are presently doing their JAR conversion.
JD

[B200Drvr]

KD28
OrganDonor has it in one. As for the JAR course at 43rd, give them a call as I heard it was a half and half, ie that these students would be trained by our instructors on the JAR syllabus and have to convert when they returned to Ireland, but that was 2nd hand information so could well be inacurate.

[wheels up]

"I am German, currently living in London(UK) but grew up in South Africa(SA citizen)."

And I thought I had identity issues...

Seriously though, from what you say I would suggest doing the SA com first, building some hours and converting to JAR later. Remember, the hours that you build will always be valid and count for the hours requirement of another licence. If you were desperately keen to get into an airline I would probably suggest going straight for the JAR licence. However, since you are obviously keen to experience some real flying before going this route, I would suggest doing the SA licence first. There are a couple of threads on this forum concerning converting a ICAO licence to JAR.

I think in the long run you are not going to save a huge amount of money doing it this route, and you will have to sit both sets of exams, but you have more chance of building up flying hours that will put you ahead of the pack. You will probably also have some great experiences, meet some interesting people and have a lot more bar stories than if you just go the JAR route.

The flip side is that the European market is a lot healthier now than it has been in a long time. However, competition among low time pilots for airline jobs is as competitive as ever - but then again you don't want to get straight into an airline anyway. You pays your money and takes your chances...

If your intentions is to get the JAR licence in the long term I suggest getting a JAR logbook and logging your time in their format from the start.

As for enqiries to the SA CAA - I always take their answers with a pinch of salt since it depends on who you speak to - some of the people there are clueless. I was recently told that in order to renew my Instructors rating I would have to do a flight test on a retractable VP aircraft, which is completely wrong. Ask for Claudia in FCL as she will most likely give you the most accurate answers.

Good luck!

[kd28]

Thanks for all your answers and insights so far …you have helped me tremendously. I am more inclined now to go the JAR route first but not all the way to ATPL just CPL. My biggest reasoning for this is probably that I am still going to be “stuck” here in the UK until my contract runs out at the end of the year and I might as well make the most of it :). This should give me ample of time to finish a JAR-CPL here and will keep me flying throughout the year.

Are there any ground schools in SA that offer a correspondence CPL course? It would be really neat to get the studying for those out of the way before arriving back in SA.
I also need to check with the SA CAA again as in their last correspondence they mentioned something in the lines of “..With a JAR CPL, you can start the SA ATPL from a CPL level…” ,which probably means the whole course ;) ,but worth checking.


Cheers,
KD28

[organ donor]

To get the SA CPL/ATPL you must do all the exams in SA. Once you have done the JARs I would be tempted to go straight for the ATPL exams in SA, and don't bother with the CPL's. (In SA they are 2 completely different exams - no "frozens").
There are a few correspondence notes you can get, try aeronav (http://www.aeronav.co.za/?component=ddb&operation=page&page=2) or avex (http://www.avexair.com/avexair/AACommercialLicence.html) for a start.

[Deskjocky]

Can you write the ATPL exams without having done the Comm ones first? I thought you couldn’t do that- of course I stand to be corrected.

kd28, your best bet is to touch base with aeronav - a Guy called Ray Swales has taken their whole syllabus and put it on a CD which they sell- get them to fedex it to you and do home study, depending on your grasp of the principles involved and if you put in the time you should do fine. If what been said is true re the ATP then then same applies. Almost all the schools do one on one tutoring so if there is anything you are unclear about then set up a few sessions when you get down here. The thing that ,I think, helped me most in getting through the exams was the "Typical Exam" question books on each subject that I got form CFA at Grand Central- particularly the ones for the heavy cramming subjects.

[organ donor]

Sorry for the presumtion. I have no idea if you can go straight to the ATLP's without doing the CPL's first. The CAA will be able to tell you.

[Desperate Wannabe]

Hi Guys

Just a quick one......the law clearly states that you have to be the holder of a VALID commerial licence, to write the ATPL subjects.
Just as you have to hold a VALID PPL to write the comm subjects.
The licence has to be valid at the time of writing, or they won't even let you sign up for the exams.

Hope that helps.

[Deskjocky]

Thanks for the clarification- thought as much!

[kd28]

Hi,

My last SA CAA response kind of implied that a validated JAR-CPL would suffice for SA-ATPL min requirements. I fired off another mail to them to clarify.
If the SA CAA's response confirms the above then my plan of action will be as follows:

JAR-ATPL "Frozen" -> SA-CPL validation -> SA - ATPL exams -> Full SA ATPL (when hour min is reached) -> Full JAR ATPL

I know the above is ambitious but you have to start somewhere ;).

Somehow in my above training scheme I have to fit in IR. Anyone here have an thoughts on where I should fit in the IR rating? I was thinking of getting in done before moving back to SA.

Now it is time to get down to some serious studying....:sad:
Thanks again for all you replies,
KD28

[MungoP]

If I was starting over again and in your position I would tackle the licences in this order....

JAR
JAR
JAR

....Hopoe that helps... and good luck with the career. :)

[kd28]

Hi,
I just received a response from SA CAA.

"..you will be required to do a full cpl course in South africa, Your valid JAA CPL will allow you to sit for our SA cpl exams not upgrade you to a SA ATPL."

So from the above I interpret that a JAR CPL in SA CAA eyes must be the same as a PPL as I am required to "do a full cpl course in South Africa"!!??!
Then in the same sentence it is stated that a "JAA CPL" will allow me to sit the exams?

I have come to realize that dealing with the SA CAA is not going to go anywhere as their replies keep on getting more cryptic...

Here is what I dug up from AIC 30.7:


12. UPGRADING OF LICENCES
12.1 The holder of a valid foreign licence and a valid South African PPL Validation may upgrade to a South
African CPL on account of the validation, by fulfilling all the prescribed requirements for the issue of a South African CPL.
12.2 The provisions of 12.1 above shall not be applicable in respect of upgrade from a CPL validation to South
African ATP.

To upgrade from a CPL validation to South African ATP, the requirements as per ANR’s 3.5(1) must be complied with.



I didn't manage to find a copy of the "ANR’s 3.5(1)" but from the AIC above, I read that an "upgrade" is possible as long as the requirements of "ANR’s 3.5(1)" are complied with. (Has anyone got a link to an online version of the 3.5 ANR?)

Let me know what you think? Am I totally on the wrong track here or is this part of the Air Law requirements test? (Which I must have failed..J).

Thanks for all your support!
KD28

[organ donor]

With a JAR CPL you will have completed all the requirements for the issue of a SA CPL, except the exams, and the flight test. To get a SA CPL off the back of your JAR CPL, you must complete all the exams, and do the flight test. You will need 200 hours TT, but there is no "flying course".

"To upgrade from a CPL validation to South African ATP, the requirements as per ANR’s 3.5(1) must be complied with."

ANR 3.5(1) lists the requirements for the ATPL, and it states that you must be the holder of a CPL. It doesn't state anything about holding a foreign CPL, so presumably it requires you to be a holder of a SA CPL.

Part 61, subpart 7 briefly describes ANR 3.5. without detailing the SA-CATS-FCL documents.

SUBPART 7
AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT LICENCE (AEROPLANE)
Requirements for airline transport pilot licence (aeroplane)
61.07.1
An applicant for the issuing of an airline transport pilot licence (aeroplane) shall -
(a) be not less than 21 years of age;
(b) hold a valid Class 1 medical certificate issued in terms of Part 67;
(c) hold a valid general radiotelephony operator’s certificate;
(d) hold a valid commercial pilot licence (aeroplane);
(e) have acquired the experience referred to in regulation 61.07.2;
(f) have successfully completed the training referred to in regulation 61.07.3;
(g) have passed the theoretical knowledge examination referred to in regulation 61.07.4;
(h) have undergone the skill test referred to in regulation 61.07.5;
(i) hold a valid night rating; and
(j) hold a valid instrument rating.

Experience
61.07.2
An applicant for the issuing of an airline transport pilot licence (aeroplane) shall have completed in aeroplanes not less than 1 500 hours of flight time, of which -
(a) 250 hours shall be as pilot-in-command or not less than 100 hours as pilot-in-command and 150 hours as co-pilot performing, under the supervision of the pilot-in-command, the duties and functions of a pilot-in-command;
(b) 200 hours shall be cross-country flight time, of which not less than 100 hours shall be as pilot-in-command or as co-pilot performing, under the supervision of the pilot-in-command, the duties and functions of a pilot-in-command;
(c) 75 hours shall be instrument time, of which not more than 30 hours may be instrument ground time;
(d) 100 hours shall be night flight time as pilot-in-command or as co-pilot; and
(e) not more than 100 hours may be acquired in a simulator.

Training
61.07.3
An applicant for the issuing of an airline transport pilot licence (aeroplane) shall have successfully completed the appropriate training as prescribed in Document SA-CATS-FCL.

Theoretical knowledge examination
61.07.4
An applicant for the issuing of an airline transport pilot licence (aeroplane) shall have passed the appropriate written examination as prescribed in Document SA-CATS-FCL.

Skill test
61.07.5
(1) An applicant for the issuing of an airline transport pilot licence (aeroplane) shall have demonstrated to a designated examiner, the ability to perform as pilot-in-command of an aeroplane the procedures and manoeuvres as prescribed in Document SA-CATS-FCL, with a degree of competency appropriate to the privileges granted to the holder of an airline transport pilot licence (aeroplane).
(2) The applicant shall undergo the skill test referred to in sub-regulation (1) within 60 months of passing the theoretical knowledge examination referred to in regulation 61.07.4 and within the 90 days immediately preceding the date of application.
(3) The skill test shall be conducted in a multi-engine aeroplane with variable pitch propellers or turbine engines, adjustable flaps and retractable undercarriage.