View Full Version : after the RAF
Hey,
I've always viewed the RAF as a career possibility. When i was younger i was always told i could not afford to be a pilot, so never really pursued it until the past year or two. I did apply to join the army as an officer in the REME/AAC (due to going down the engineering route due to believing i couldn't fund a pilot career) and came so close to getting in, but i have matured so much since then.
The main reason i thought i would not be able to join the RAF is that i always had doubts over my eyesight, mainly because my best friend has unbeleivable vision which left me a bit paranoid!! However, a recent eye test has shown that i have 6/6 (or 20/20) vision.
I have mainly recently looked inot a commercial pilot career, but have been browsing the RAF forum a bit recently aswell.
The main query i have, and don't get me wrong, i wouldn't be llooking to "buy myself out" of the RAF after training, but purely out of interest, how easy is it to come out of the RAF and go into a commercial career?
Is there enough time to progress to captain, and is there much involved in converting a licence to commercial?
What are the main licences gained by flying with the RAF?
I would love to be able to serve my time in the RAF and go into commercial flying. It would give me the best of both worlds and i really think i'd feel a lot more satisfied having made sure that i'd given both career paths a chance.
thanks for any help or advice you can give me.
ratty1
2nd Apr 2006, 18:02
You haven't even joined thr RAF and you are on about life after? Well that does show your level of comitment, which will go down very well when asked about it during your interview at Cranwell. I also notice that you are on about leaving your University course because you don't like it? That also will go down very well at Cranwell. I suggest you think long and hard before you apply to join the Royal Air Force.......................
Pontius Navigator
2nd Apr 2006, 18:09
And all the usual boring cr*p about spelling, punctuation, capitalisation etc.
I don't think I have every seen two adverbs mainly recently used together before.:bored:
This i have matured so much since then also seems a questionable assumption although if the base was low enough . . .
cazatou
2nd Apr 2006, 19:34
Not to mention "inot and aswell!!
crashsite
2nd Apr 2006, 19:53
Sicky, because of the RAF downsizing that is in progress it is incredibly competitive to be selected as a pilot in the RAF at the moment. Most young guys and gals selected will have 6/4 vision bilaterally and a pilot aptitude score that 'walks on water'. 6/6 vision is considered average at best by RAF aircrew. However, if you are serious about wanting a career as a pilot in the RAF there is only one thing to do and that is put yourself forward for selection. The guys above have touched on some important points, namely you need to be seen to be committed to a life in HM forces as a pilot, you need to present yourself well and you need to demonstrate that you are a 'stayer'. Therefore, do some thorough preparation, stick with your university course and if/when you go to OASC, the only thing in life you have ever wanted to do is fly a Harrier or Typhoon. Big aircraft are for bus drivers, not pilots, etc etc. The RAF does not licence you per se, you would have to pay for your own licences, flying tests and exams after a similar study period to a civilian pilot. Obviously, what the RAF would do, in effect, is pay you whilst you build hours flying HM aircraft. It is a great career, a great life, a challenge every day and I wouldn't change it for the world...you will read a lot of cynical stuff on this website from guys who are jaded but don't have the courage to get out and put their bodies where their mouth is!!
crashsite - thanks for the great advice.
As to the other members questioning my level of maturiy, whilst making posts like that, is a little ironic, do you not think?
We all make typing errors now and then. I admit i did not make it clear that it was just a hypothetical question. "IF i were to join the RAF, what options would i have afterwards?" Better? I appreciate advice both for and against and can take criticism, but the unconstructive comments would be better off kept to yourself, and you both know who you are, as you are helping nobody.
When joining university, some people do find that it is not for them. Oters find that the course they have chosen is leading them down a route which they no longer wish to travel down. I'm not the first, and i won't be the last. I do not think that this bears any resemblance to whether or not i am "a stayer". I do, however, see exactly where you are coming from, ratty, and i know that it could potentially look very bad.
It is very easy to just look at something like that and say "well the lad is not committed, it's obvious" but sometimes, it's not the case at all. I'd love to try my hand at both, and as i said i would not look to buy myself out at all, i'd serve at least the time i was contracted for, probably more.
Again, my point was, simply out of interest, what would be available afterwards.
So from what crashsite said: My chances are not so good, which is what i understood in the first place, hence me concentrating the majority of my research on commercial piloting. Thanks for confirming that.
I imagine that achieving the licences such as the ATPL afterwards would be "easier" due to the flying experience? So there would be the groundschool, but the flying would be a case of "touching up" here and there?
BEagle
2nd Apr 2006, 20:38
If you achieve 2000 hours total time on military aeroplanes, of which 1000 are as PIC and 500 as PIC/US, and are a graduate of a ME OCU on an approved type, then all you will need for an ATPL is to pass the Air Law exam, have the CAA observe your Instrument Rating Test and obtain a JAA Class 1 Medical. Fill out the form, pay the dosh....and a few weeks later the little green book pops through your letter box.
But you have to get there first - and that'll take around 10 years after you finish your ME OCU.
more great help and advice, thanks!
Roguedent
2nd Apr 2006, 21:47
You would see out the time you were contracted for!! The RAF is a way of life, not your personnel stepping stone to gain experience and your licenses. I would question your motives not your commitment. If you did join, and heaven forbid you were a good pilot, would you take FJ's or Helos?? I suspect you would do everything in your power not to shine. Enjoy Kidlington when you apply there, as I don't think, with the attitude you have, you will get very far at OASC.:ok:
Yeah, i see you're point. Don't get me wrong, the forces is always something i have wanted to try. It's always been an interest and an ambition. When you say it's a way of life, that makes me wonder if i want to do it for my whole life. Some parts of me say yes, others say no. So i know the majority of people will tell me not to bother, some may say go for it though. From what i understand, you fly what you're told to fly?
I assure you my attitude is not a problem, as no matter which route i choose i will always give 100%. I hate failing, and i have the highest standards realistically possible. I dont understand why you think i might not try to shine?
It's not so much a stepping stone, like i said, it's something i've always wanted to do, and if it got as far asm e doing i would be fully comitted, but the commercial side of things is another apect of flying that i have always wanted to do.
ratty1
2nd Apr 2006, 23:34
crashsite - thanks for the great advice.
As to the other members questioning my level of maturiy, whilst making posts like that, is a little ironic, do you not think?
Who mentioned maturity? It was your level of commitment that was questioned................
Samuel
3rd Apr 2006, 00:04
Ah, sweet nostalgia! I can actually recall when potential pilots joined for reasons of commitment, ethos, for the love of the life,to be the best there is etc, and not because of what might be possible once all that free and very expensive training was in the bank.
Of course, not all who serve can do so for ever because it would enormously complicate the promotion pyramid and we would end up with more senior, non-flying types than we have aircraft [what was that, we have that now?], and so it is logical for those who have the skills and the knowledge to transfer them to the civilian world. Good on 'em! I reached the conclusion many years ago that the very best the air force produce leave; the corollary of which is that those stay are not, necessarily, the cream of the crop. Various opinions stated on the forums on the present state of senior management would seem to confirm that view. They all, nevertheless, had one thing in common when they joined; commitment! By the truck-load.
Which brings me to to you, Sicky. The responses here may seem, to your eyes, to be rather harsh, but, to be frank; what did you expect from a professional body? Contrary to your stated self-assessment, I think you most certainly have an attitude problem in that you come across as totally clueless and uncommitted about that which you seem to expect will be handed to you simply because you think it's a good idea. Go to any RAF interview with that approach and be sure to leave the door behind you open to facilitate the rapid exit which will undoubtedly follow.
Sorry, but you wouldn't get past first base with your attitude.
I believe pontius questioned my maturity in his earlier post.
I don't see the serious comments as harsh, i can see exactly where everybody is coming from in everything they have said, i'm just trying to explain myself. I appreciate all points of view.
I know in life that nothing at all is handed to anybody on a plate, and that to get where you want to be involves a hell of a lot of hard work.
I am sure there are a lot of pilots, and other members of the armed forces, army, navy, RAF, who leave. My step-brother served in the army, got all his driving licences and now drives HGV's for a living. I'm sure you can see why i am making the comparison there. He wanted to be in the army when he was younger, he did it, but he decided that he wanted to live a civilian life and left. Nobody complained.
I don't come on here to argue with anybody, i just had a few questions, they've mostly been answered, so i'll leave it at that.
Samuel
3rd Apr 2006, 01:40
All armed forces are people eaters. There is, however, a very slight difference between gaining an HGV licence and placing someone in the driving seat of an aircraft!
The process of selection is therefore much, much more selective. Many more fail it than make it, and it has to be that way.They will want to know a lot more about you than you currently know yourself, and they are expert at weeding out the wannabes from the good oil!
Nice try Sicky!
Blacksheep
3rd Apr 2006, 01:40
Ah, sweet nostalgia! I can actually recall when potential pilots joined for reasons of commitment, ethos, for the love of the life,to be the best there is etc, and not because of what might be possible once all that free and very expensive training was in the bank.
It doesn't alter the fact that the majority of military careers are over at the youthful age of 38 and the rest at the sprightly age of 55.
In the past, most RAF pilots went on to pursue civil careers and got their Captain's rings. The lad is asking a valid question and he deserved a proper answer. The short answer is that, while military flying experience (or any other military qualifications) is acknowledged by most employers, it doesn't carry much weight with licensing authorities. Ex-military people still have to take the examinations required by civil authorities and though some exemptions are granted, they are few and far between.
As an aside, that training isn't "free" at all. You pay for it through low pay and lousy conditions while in the service - though you won't fully recognize that until after you leave. ;)
Samuel
3rd Apr 2006, 01:50
Oh, I dunno, I'd have paid good money for some of the laughs:ok:
thanks blacksheep, you clearly caught on to what i was asking and your reply was more than helpful :ok:
BEagle
3rd Apr 2006, 06:25
Blacksheep, the ATPL or CPL accreditation available nowadays is vastly more generous than hitherto. It was introduced under the JAA obligation which requires national authorities to give due recognition to skill and experience gained during military service, but was prinicpally a recruiting and retention incentive.
Recruiting - it will attract people who would otherwise go elsewhere.
Retention - it will retain them until they have provided an acceptable return on the RAF's original investment, rather than leaving at an earlier stage.
Pontius Navigator
3rd Apr 2006, 07:01
sicky,
Your 0220 post had the clarity and presentation that was clearly lacking in your first post. Qualified instructors, and there are many here, have an ability to gauge potential in a very few moments. Even Mrs PN, a retired nurs, came up with identical assessments of potential after a few minutes.
Your lack of potential shone in your first post. Your latter posts showed that maturity that I questioned earlier.
The lesson?
As soon as you get to AFCO or OASC or IOT you will be judged in exactly the same way as you were judged here. If it was as your 0220 posts etc good but . . .
On my course we asessed one as a potential air marshal and a potential policeman. The former was a wg cdr last I heard and well on track; the latter is still plodding along.
Before you question our judgemental ability from so short an acquaintance, let me assure you that it was determined by an Army Psychiatrist who said it was a shame that the training system had to prove failure rather than rely on gut instinct as gut instinct had a 90% odd success rate.
If you don't believe me but you have a good honest tutor at university, ask them.
Finally, good luck, get that degree and talk to AFCO.
foldingwings
3rd Apr 2006, 08:11
Statistics! 6000 apply each year only 10% are selected for training and, depending on reqts, only about 100 are pilots. You need to be good, committed and able to prove it against stiff competition; not just think that it might get you your civvy licences.
ratty1
3rd Apr 2006, 09:44
As a student you could try this website. Lots of information regarding joining and preparation.
>>The student room<< (http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=96)
Flyarmy1
17th Apr 2006, 14:37
Would avoid the student room. In my experience the armed forces section is filled to the brim with egotistical teenagers who are either going for fighter controller or supply who have little real knowledge or understanding of anything aircraft related, let alone the Royal Air Force, they seem happy to refer you to the AFCO at every oppertunity rather then offer any real advice.
I say fair play to you. I'm much in the same position, however I for one know that my eyesight is not up to the standards required for the RAF (however it is for the Army Air Corps). Its not a crime to think ahead, so that maybe 16 years + down the line when your Permanent Commission is drawing to end what you might do. I would however suggest that that is a very long time and who can predict what the CAA or RAF may introduce in the way of rentention? Before you start your formal application process speak to your AFCO about your issues, they cant hold it over you that way.
Ridgerunner
17th Apr 2006, 14:45
Crashsite,
Are you saying that the RAF will select someone with 6/4 vision over someone with 6/6 vision as having 6/6 is only average? That doesn't sound very fair to me, but I must admit any RAF pilots I've know or potentials have had exceptional vision.
Mmmmnice
17th Apr 2006, 16:35
Sicky - from a motivational perspective it sounds like you will be a bit short on the sense of humour front - given that it has to be very well developed to help you see the funny side of the sort of jobs you will be given to do; and the sort of places you will be sent to do them! Ask anyone who's recently been playing with the other kids in the variety of sandboxes one has to chose from these days. Don't do it if you do not want to be a military aviator first - and something else way in the future! Say if I'm wrong any of you experts out there?
civobs
17th Apr 2006, 17:08
just a small point, many people who deal with younger folk (careers officers and suchlike) see the military (whichever force) as a time limited occupation and advise them to go for trades rather than say infantry that will offer a means of earning in civilian life.
Big aircraft are for bus drivers, not pilots, etc etc. The RAF does not licence you per se, you would have to pay for your own licences, flying tests and exams after a similar study period to a civilian pilot.
Bus driver !! How dare you Sir ! Outside now . .. . . .;)
You could get your licence by amassing 2000 hrs. With some captaincy ones thrown in, a Class 1 med and a CAA examiner on the jumpseat of an aircraft that can throttle an engine back in flight, you'd get it.
But that's more for the end of your first tour on a ME sqn . . .. :E
effortless
17th Apr 2006, 17:50
And all the usual boring cr*p about spelling, punctuation, capitalisation etc.
I don't think I have every seen two adverbs mainly recently used together before.:bored:
This i have matured so much since then also seems a questionable assumption although if the base was low enough . . .
Is it worse than " fairly recently"? Can't see anything wrong really, said he sighingly.
harrogate
17th Apr 2006, 18:12
And all the usual boring cr*p about spelling, punctuation, capitalisation etc.
I don't think I have every seen two adverbs mainly recently used together before.:bored:
I think you meant 'ever'.
Well, if you're going to be pedantic....
Ridgerunner
17th Apr 2006, 18:31
Enough of this petty boll**^s
thelynxeffect
17th Apr 2006, 19:39
I am sure there are a lot of pilots, and other members of the armed forces, army, navy, RAF, who leave. My step-brother served in the army, got all his driving licences and now drives HGV's for a living.
Great, maybe you should give 'Truckmaster' a call, Goose has the number
UberPilot
17th Apr 2006, 20:56
Great, maybe you should give 'Truckmaster' a call, Goose has the number
http://www.truckmastercdl.org/
:yuk:
http://www.truckmastercdl.org/sidedbl.gif
alisoncc
17th Apr 2006, 21:48
Bus driver !! How dare you Sir ! Outside now . .. . . .;)
Reminds me of a recent e-mail conversation.
First person:
I cannot reverse a car for toffee but flew military fast jets and airliners for a living.
Reply:
Reversing a 747 is easy as long as you remember to adjust the wing mirrors first. And never never put the engines into reverse without bringing them to a complete stop, otherwise you get bits of turbine blade coming in the windows. Airbuses are different because the French drive on the opposite side of the road. They have a toggle switch on top of the stick that swops the left and right hand seats around. (Says Alison, falling off her seat laughing)