Wreckage in Bristol Channel [Archive]

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Agaricus bisporus

31st Mar 2006, 09:58

shack

31st Mar 2006, 10:11

Could it be from the Britannia that plopped in to the Channel with a burning donc way back in the 50s?

matspart3

31st Mar 2006, 10:33

Shack
You mean this one....

http://www.transportarchive.org.uk/getobject.php?rnum=G2170

Not the same place that A b suggests though

Conan the Librarian

31st Mar 2006, 11:45

A good try Shack, but sadly the Brit Props are quite slender and with rounded tips. Some of the more cerebral inhabitants of the "What Cockpit" thread may come to the rescue here.

Conan

stalling attitude

31st Mar 2006, 17:43

i'm not sure if it is the same one but last year on the local news they ran an item on a local helicopter pilot who spotted a prop blade at low tide in that sort of area. They said that it was thought to be from a mosquito that went in just after the war i think. If so then there won't be much left of the aircraft but there could be a corroding merlin down there.

JamesA

1st Apr 2006, 18:57

Conan,
The 102 series Brits had square tip props. The one put down in the Bristol Channel would have been from this series if memory serves correctly.

Conan the Librarian

1st Apr 2006, 21:12

I stand corrected! Thought they were all rounded tip, like the RAF examples. As an aside, what is it (apart from clearances) that governs whether a tip is rounded or square?

Apols shack :}

Conan

shack

2nd Apr 2006, 09:02

Merci Conan

MReyn24050

2nd Apr 2006, 09:09

Conan,
The 102 series Brits had square tip props. The one put down in the Bristol Channel would have been from this series if memory serves correctly.
As matspart's link shows.
The aircraft concerned was the second prototype G-ALRX Bristol 175 Britannia Series 101. which crashed on the 4th Feb 1954
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/Aircraft/G-ALRXinthemud.jpg
G-ALRX from the air. Note the tracks where the Britannia slid along the mud, before veering to the right into the Estuary. There are five tracks - one for the fuselage, and one for each engine.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/Aircraft/G2171.jpg

Shaggy Sheep Driver

2nd Apr 2006, 11:11

Did the crew get out OK?

SSD

MReyn24050

2nd Apr 2006, 11:27

Did the crew get out OK?
SSD
Yes there were 7 crew and 6 passengers on board.
Extract from Britannia Aircraft Preservation Trust Web site:-
"On the morning of 4th February 1954, G-ALRX took of from Filton on a test flight, with Captain A.J. 'Bill' Pegg at the controls. Flight Engineers for the trip were Ken Fitzgerald and Gareth Jones. On board were Dr. Archibald E. Russell, Chief Designer of Bristol Aircraft Division; Dr. Stanley G Hooker, Chief Engineer of the Bristol Engine Division; and Mr Farnes, the Bristol Sales Manager. This was not just a test flight; also present were two representatives of the Dutch airline KLM, a potential Britannia customer. G. Malouin of KLM was co-pilot for the flight. Thirteen people were on board all together. The take-off was uneventful, but seven minutes into the flight the engine temperature on engine no. 3 rose, so it was shut down. Once it had cooled sufficiently, it was restarted, and the flight continued its journey northwards to Herefordshire.
The engine temperature rose again when climbing through 10,000 feet, then suddenly the engine exploded. Shrapnel missed the fuselage, but pierced the engine oil tank, which burst into flames. The fire was so intense it could not be extinguished. While Bill Pegg turned the aircraft south for an emergency landing at back at Filton, engine No.4 was shut down, as a precaution. To add to the drama, engines no. 1 and 2 shut themselves down, turning the Britannia into a large glider. It was only the speedy work of the two engineers, Fitzgerald and Jones, that got the two port engines relit, and disaster was averted.
With flames engulfing the starboard wing, threatening to penetrate the fuel tanks, and Filton still several miles away, Pegg elected to put down on the Severn Mudflats, the slit and mud of the Severn Estuary exposed when the tide is out. With the flaps and wheels up, and only the two port engines running, the Britannia was expertly belly landed on the flats near Littleton-on-Severn, not far from the eastern end of the first Severn bridge, which was built the following decade. The aircraft slidded for 400 yards, sending plumes of mud in the air. It ended up facing out from the shore, with one engine ripped from the nacelle, but with little damage elsewhere. Miraculously, the mud managed to put out the flames, which could have ripped through the fuel tanks at any moment. Relieved and shaken the crew and passengers jumped from the aircraft."

Conan the Librarian

2nd Apr 2006, 11:38

I was followed into a car park at Kemble two, possibly three years ago by an elderly gentleman in a small car. Thought he looked familiar. Turned out to be Bill Pegg, the captain of the Sand Buggy! Wonderful chap and a superb character too.

Conan

Newforest

2nd Apr 2006, 12:37

Great photos showing a superb attempt to save the plane, also a great example of the ubiquitous duffle coat. Curious why the plane would turn to the right?:confused:

Shaggy Sheep Driver

2nd Apr 2006, 13:25

Curious why the plane would turn to the right?:confused:

Downhill, once the rudder became ineffective to hold them straight as the speed decayed?

SSD

jabberwok

2nd Apr 2006, 16:45

Relieved and shaken the crew and passengers jumped from the aircraft.

...into several feet of sticky and foul smelling mud. It wasn't easy for them to plough their way through it to firmer ground.

Can't recall where I read this - maybe in BP's autobiography.

Bof

2nd Apr 2006, 22:39

MReyn24050

3rd Apr 2006, 05:58

Can anybody help. I am struggling with the old grey matter. However, a very good friend of mine was employed by Bristols as a photographer. Around 54'ish he was killed in a Britannia crash near Bristol(?) supposedly he was on board to photograph wooltufts on part of the airframe on an airtest.
Clearly my mind is a bit muddled after 52 years. Was there another Brit crash in the area during the test period which incurred fatalities?
Yes, sadly, Bristol 175 Britannia G-ANCA was lost on the 6th November 1957 with 15 men on board. The aircraft had just completed a test flight of 1 hour and 40 minutes. Tests included a strain-gauge measurements on the non-standard propeller of the no. 2 engine, and high speed upset manoeuvre recovery tests in connection with the US certification. Returning to Filton, the aircraft entered a circuit and partial gear extensions occurred for unknown reasons. Attempts may have been made to complete undercarriage free fall tests as these had failed the previous day; such test were not on the programme however. At 1500 feet a left turn to base leg was initiated. The right wing suddenly dropped and the aircraft went into a very steeply banked right hand turn. The Britannia briefly recovered but banked steeply again and struck the ground in a wood near Downend Village.
The names of the 15 men who lost their lives that day were :
John Kenneth Barker
John Edward Burton
Donald Charles Cameron
Albert Edward Ebling
Philip Norman Edward Hewitt
Donald Matthew Hunter
Kenneth Graham Lucas
Dudley Neville Stephen Moynihan
Frederick William Mycroft
John Harold Parry-Jones
Ernest Hugh Statham
Nigel Morris Thorne
William James Todd
Bernard Francis Waite
Frederick Charles Walsh

Bof

3rd Apr 2006, 08:07

Many thanks MReyn. Nigel Thorne and I had been great school friends and it was a great loss at the time. As so many others have observed, Pprune is a fantastic source of aeronautic history and information. Whatever your question, someone out there has the answer.

JamesA

3rd Apr 2006, 10:13

Conan,
Since my remark re square tips, a friend has told me he has seen a photo, if remembered correctly it is a Britannia Airways machine which appears to have a square tipped prop on the outer engine and a round tip on the inner.
Could any of the Aerosexuals out there verify this.

As to the question you raised re tip shape - I can only suggest it is a designer's attempt at efficiency. Some years ago I saw a Cessna or Piper twin with the tips turned back. A man told me they were called 'Q' tips. I am not in private flying so don't know if they caught on, but believe several other tip designs have been tried. I also recall square and rounded tips on Dart engines, don't know which variant used which or if they are interchangeable. Over to the prop experts.

MReyn24050

3rd Apr 2006, 15:24

Flap40

3rd Apr 2006, 16:46

I also recall square and rounded tips on Dart engines, don't know which variant used which or if they are interchangeable. Over to the prop experts.

With Air Anglia/Air UK F27-100 had round tips and the 200's, 500's & 600's had square tips. I think that they were Dart -517's -528's and -532's.

Electra's are another type that has square and round.

JamesA

3rd Apr 2006, 18:27

Many thanks to MReyn24050 and Flaps40, for your prompt replies.
Well, Conan, it seems you pay your money and take your choice.
I used to work on Britannias and Darts, but do not know the criteria for prop choice.

This historical section is nice and friendly, as well as helpful. So much more pleasant than the Childrens' toys and prams department[sorry, freight dog branch (have to admit I belong to them)].

Hope to learn a lot more.
James

MReyn24050

3rd Apr 2006, 18:51

JamesA
You are welcome, I am sure the 'freight dog branch' are not that bad. I thought that the difference between square tips and rounded tips had something to do with propeller tip speeds and sonic limits but to have both on the same wing for me cast doubts on that theory. Perhaps the relationship is something to do with the reduction of vibration.
Mel

jabberwok

4th Apr 2006, 00:57

Originally Posted by JamesA
I also recall square and rounded tips on Dart engines, don't know which variant used which or if they are interchangeable. Over to the prop experts.
Some Viscount 700's had rounded tips and the 800's had squared ones. No idea why though.
http://www.homepages.mcb.net/bones/WebPix/G-AMOJ.jpg

scroogee

7th Apr 2006, 22:00

Further info about prop tip shape, the Convair 580 uses Allison 501 D13 engines and Aeroproducts A6441FN-606A props- which are a stainless steel honey comb construction. I would think that the honey combing would mean that square tips are required for construction purposes.

Whereas the Convair 5800 uses Allison 501 D22 engines and has Hamilton Standard props which are soild aluminium and have rounded tips. (The D22 is also the engine used in C130's and P3 Orions.)

matspart3

8th Apr 2006, 21:36

A little more info and a picture here

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=55992

My Dad's Little Boy

20th Apr 2006, 18:16

Yes, sadly, Bristol 175 Britannia G-ANCA was lost on the 6th November 1957 with 15 men on board. The aircraft had just completed a test flight of 1 hour and 40 minutes. Tests included a strain-gauge measurements on the non-standard propeller of the no. 2 engine, and high speed upset manoeuvre recovery tests in connection with the US certification. Returning to Filton, the aircraft entered a circuit and partial gear extensions occurred for unknown reasons. Attempts may have been made to complete undercarriage free fall tests as these had failed the previous day; such test were not on the programme however. At 1500 feet a left turn to base leg was initiated. The right wing suddenly dropped and the aircraft went into a very steeply banked right hand turn. The Britannia briefly recovered but banked steeply again and struck the ground in a wood near Downend Village.
The names of the 15 men who lost their lives that day were :
John Kenneth Barker
John Edward Burton
Donald Charles Cameron
Albert Edward Ebling
Philip Norman Edward Hewitt
Donald Matthew Hunter
Kenneth Graham Lucas
Dudley Neville Stephen Moynihan
Frederick William Mycroft
John Harold Parry-Jones
Ernest Hugh Statham
Nigel Morris Thorne
William James Todd
Bernard Francis Waite
Frederick Charles Walsh

There's an engraved metal plaque on the wall of the Downend Folk Centre commemorating (if that's the right word to use) the crash. The wood where it went down is just over the road from the plaque.

On-MarkBob

21st Apr 2006, 23:23

Nothing to do with the Prop in the Bristol Channel but the 'Q' tips (apart from being something to rake your ears out with), were designed to cut down prop noise. 'Q' meaning Quiet. The idea was that at certain speeds the prop tips would become super-sonic and make hell of a din. By curling the tips the diameter was reduced and the speed of the tip was brought back into the sub-sonic band. (theoretically without degrading the performance of the prop). The GoodYear airship is a prime example!

rewill

5th Jul 2006, 19:34

In the mid '80s I regularly flew in the Bristol area and frequently saw a large propellor blade sticking out of a big sandbank in mid-channel roughly between Portishead (or a mile or so upstream) and the Welsh shore to the North. We once came to a hover close by, it was a big square-ended paddle blade similar shape to that on a Herc/Convair or some of the later RAF piston transports and was clealy still attached to an engine.

Long shot I know, anyone able to shed light? mosquito plane went down early to mid 50s plane broke up over short period of time,have walked out to engine on welsh side,paddle shape prop,packard engine,not rolls royce,found out other engine near burnham on sea, pilot found dead near barry, have more info email rewill@hotmail,co,uk

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!

7th Jul 2006, 02:41

I've seen Q tips in Texas, but only the one time. It was on a twin I think. I heard the principle was the same as "tip sails/winglets/ugly sticky up bits at the end of the wings", whatever they're called now.

I think one reason they didn't catch on is that they look like you did a go-around after a wheels up landing. :(

Stubenfliege 2

12th Jul 2006, 19:54

The right wing suddenly dropped and the aircraft went into a very steeply banked right hand turn. The Britannia briefly recovered but banked steeply again and struck the ground in a wood near Downend Village.
The names of the 15 men who lost their lives that day were :

Any idea, what reason can be named for this controll loss?

Regards,

Christian

MReyn24050

12th Jul 2006, 20:08

Stubenfliege 2

Christian
The following is a report based on ICAO Accident Digest Circular 62-AN/57 (19-22)

PROBABLE CAUSE: "The accident was the result of the aircraft developing a very steep descending turn to the right which the pilot was unable to control. The reason for this could not be determined, but the possibility that it occurred as the result of malfunctioning of the autopilot cannot be dismissed."

Mel

atb1943

13th Jul 2006, 23:50

I've seen Q tips in Texas, but only the one time. It was on a twin I think. I heard the principle was the same as "tip sails/winglets/ugly sticky up bits at the end of the wings", whatever they're called now......

I recall seeing an all-red Navajo at Kidlington with q tip props..believe the owner has two of them. Could it be a Colemill conversion?

Believe one of them also took part in the 1981 Paris-NY air race.

cheers atb

treadigraph

14th Jul 2006, 07:40

I remember the Red Navajo - it was US registered and had been on the G-reg previously. It was a Panther Navajo which I think was indeed converted by Colemill. Four blade props as I recall. I also remember a rather smart light grey one, also US registered, that used to be quite common in me spotting days - cor, several decades ago now! I presume they weren't certified for UK registration by the CAA?

atb1943

14th Jul 2006, 21:11

There was a rumour that the Navajo participating in the race from Le Bourget in 1981 was going to be kitted out with in-flight refuelling (!) which caused one or two others to drop out. How true that rumour was I don't know. The hit was the participation of a Dragon Rapide in the race (Blue Way?), I believe now F-AZCA in the Jean Salis collection.
The red Navajo incidentally may have been replaced by a Caravan based in bonny Ecosse.

But this thread is about props in the mud, so I am way off track!
cheers
atb