Cost of an ND?

[Cambridge Crash]

From Today's NZ Herald:
$1600 fine for Navy captain
29.03.06 7.00am
A Royal New Zealand Navy captain was fined $1600 at a court-martial at Trentham Military Camp yesterday for accidentally firing his rifle during a training drill in Afghanistan last month.
Gordon Ross Smith, 48, pleaded guilty to prejudicing service discipline after accidentally firing his Steyr rifle into the ground several metres in front of him.

What would the approximate cost be here ($NZ1600 is about £600)?
What does it say about arming senior officers?
Where was his 'bearer' who should have been carrying it for him?

[Monty77]

Court martial for a nd? Bit of overkill isn't it? In my time (NI 90s RAF) it was a police report, chat with the staish and a donation of a month's pay to a Force's welfare charity fund of some sort. And a crappy ACR next time round.

[Training Risky]

A RNZN Captain!?!?

Given the size of such a force, surely he is the most senior officer in the whole NZ navy and could preside at his own court-martial.

(Or has Helen the Lesbian binned the navy yet?)

[dallas]

I find it very odd that such a senior officer had a ND. The RAF, for example, have decided our Wg Cdrs and above are so naturally gifted in all areas of life that they don't need to do annual CCS like everyone else.

The presumption would seem to be that they have better things to do, which is somewhat annoying...

[A Sayers]

I am ashamed to say that as a Capt I had my only ND. A soldier asked me to hold her weapon for a few minutes and passed it to me, I bollocked her for not clearing it first, showed her how to do it, pointed it at the ground, pulled the trigger - BANG (a blank round fortunately). In the adjacent line of open 4 tonne trucks the heads of the whole embussed battalion turned and looked at the smoking gun....

Two weeks later I made Major.

The General was very understanding about weeks without significant sleep on exercise and the months of irregular hours on operations before that. However...

Retired and years later, I now fly Vigies which only go bang from the engine.

[teeteringhead]

Always used to be a month's pay in NI...

... I recall one occasion when a Rock patrol had an ND, with which SAC X managed to scratch the upper arm of Cpl Y his brick commander.

They both got done a month's pay, as the Cpl should have been supervising ....

.... but Cpls get paid more than SACs, so Cpl Y gets a bigger fine as well as a hole in his arm (nearly) ... oh how we laughed....

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

A simple lesson...........forget NSP's etc, don't touch the working parts and the feckin thing CANNOT go bang......end of lesson:p

All spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Roadster280]

ABIW...Somewhat simplistic view.

How does one check that it is clear without touching the working parts? Assumption that it is clear is the ONLY reason people have NDs if they intentionally pull the trigger, because they ASSUME it is clear when squeezing off the action.

Making sure the chamber is clear first (by feel if necessary) is the ONLY way to avoid an ND if one chooses to pull the trigger, having pulled the working parts to the rear.

Of course there are other types of ND, such as loaded, cocked firearm, safety catch gets knocked (difficult I know) off, then rifle etc is accidentally knocked, dropped etc and it goes bang. As does one's salary.

Going back to the Rock Cpl, why did he get bounced? Unless the SAC was at an unloading bay etc, the Cpl can't supervise his entire section's weapon handling drills on the streets.

Do you chaps ever have NDs with bombs, rockets, cannon and missiles? I imagine it's a little more serious than the odd 5.56 round. How much does that cost????

[Time Flies]

How about the Jaguar shot down by a Phantom in Germany? :E

What are the facts behind that accident? Google seems to throw up a plethora of useless facts...none of which relate to this incident.

A few beers must have been owed that night in the bar!

===============

Edited to add: As I am unaware of the facts I apologize in advance if this turned out to be a fatal accident.

TF

[teeteringhead]

Roadster It was indeed at the unloading bay....

..... and for Time Flies, no fatalities in the Toom/Jag incident; never mind Google, there have been threads on it here and/or in AH&N, so a search here might work.

Edited to add: some more details, I'd forgotten it was Falklands time:

On 25 May 82 a 92 Sqn RAF Phantom FGR.2 (XV422) using AIM-9L (?) shot down a Jaguar GR.MK.1 (XX963) about 35nm NE of Brüggen. Can't remember the Jag Sqn

Phantom crew (all this is in public domain) was Roy Lawrence and Alastair Iverarity, Jag mate was Steve Griggs, who banged out at least one more time after that ......

[spectre150]

The RAF, for example, have decided our Wg Cdrs and above are so naturally gifted in all areas of life that they don't need to do annual CCS like everyone else

Dallas - slightly off topic I know but I just did CCS at a HQ in the Chilterns and there were 2 Gp Capts and a shed load of Wg Cdrs present. I think one of the AOCs (how many are there this week) had decreed that ALL his staff would do GDT :D

[Flarkey]

I personaly know of a British Army captain who was fined £1600 last year for a 5.56mm ND on a range in the UK.

I doubt he'll ever have another ND. :rolleyes:

[Time Flies]

Cost of a ND?

Where do I start?

Nappies
Milk
Clothes
Toys
Education
Playstation....

:(

[southside]

accidentally firing his rifle ....


....whats a rifle ?

[ratty1]

....


....whats a rifle ?
A rifle is a firearm that uses a spiral groove cut into the barrel to spin a projectile (usually a bullet), thus improving accuracy and range of the projectile.

Hope this answers your question.

[Ali Barber]

In GW1 an RAF Doc had an ND. I thought they always carried bandages and plasters in their holsters! Quite a hefty fine I believe.

As for the shooting down of the Jag, John Smith (former Labour Leader) I am reliably informed was the defending lawyer at the Courts Martial, but didn't get them off. T'was many a long year before the pilot involved ever flew a live armed aircraft again (spent most of his time on OCUs as a QFI). When I was in MOD I authorised an extra missile so that he could have one on the OCU QWI's MPC, but on the strict understanding that everyone else but the target was behind him at all times (lol). He (and his nav) was a nice bloke and there was a good reason why the original incident happened (pressures of exercise, Taceval inject changing exercise procedures, crew end up scrambled in a jet they thought was armed with training/acquisition missiles instead of live armed, nobody believing them on the radio when they said they had shot an aircraft down, instructions to return to CAP, nobody believing them on the radio when they called taxying in with one less missile than they'd taken off with, etc).

[buoy15]

A Sayers
I suspect had she held your weapon for only a few minutes, you might have gone "bang" as well until you had a gas leakage - and she then had to pull or stroke it clear with a piece of 4"x2" (tissue) :)
Any chance of getting on this course?

[john50uk]

I personaly know of a British Army captain who was fined £1600 last year for a 5.56mm ND on a range in the UK.
I doubt he'll ever have another ND. :rolleyes:
Is that a months wage for an Army Captain these days? I get £200.00 a month less than that, and I'm a dustcart driver! :p
John

[Safety_Helmut]

southside & rifle :E southside & rifle :E rifle and southside, southside in front of rifle, things are looking up ! ND or deliberate, who would know ?

[Blodwyn Pig]

chap i knew had an ND whilst doing gate gaurd at honington in about 1990, his exscuse was that he wasn't used to the new fangled plastic pop gun. he was fined something like £6-800 for the privelige.

[ZH875]

ND or deliberate, who would know ?.


Who would really :mad: care.

[The Helpful Stacker]

We had our fuel tanks 'aerated' at R850 by a door slider and his trusty gimpy a few years back. Luckily he didn't us wing mongs working on the pan/operating the pump next to the tanks. Even more lucky was the fact 3 of the rounds which hit the tanks (which were tracer) didn't ignite. Tank 4 would have made a hell of a bang, what with it being empty but full of vapour awaiting a receipt.:uhoh:

Apparently he got away with a slap on the wrist because the weapon was at fault, although I'm not sure how placing a belt of 7.62mm into the weapon then attempting to fire off the action is a fault of the weapon. I always believed thats how gimpies worked!!

[Safety_Helmut]

I thought a Gimp just did as he was told...............and enjoyed it ! :E

[rock_dove]

Har, Har, Har!!!:} :E

[Sven Sixtoo]

If an aircraft was designed with the same gotchas as a 9mm pistol, would any of us accept it?

NDs are by aviation standards errors. They are punished as misbehaviour, but nobody does it deliberately. Apply aviation design standards to the weapon and the procedures, then sue, grabbitt and runne!

Sven

[West Coast]

I wonder what the Harrier got for shooting the **** out of the H53 on the ramp in Yuma during the summer? Harrier taxiied out, returned prior to dept with a problem. In the meanwhile some rounds cooked off, hitting the helo.

Or at least that's the way the story goes.

[jayteeto]

I know where ABIW is coming from. In N Ireland in the eighties, there was a run of NDs, mostly in the clearing pit. The crews were doing 14 hour shifts with regular 8hrs+ flying in difficult conditions. A very senior officer, very senior, declared that he had the answer to the problem. Never pull the trigger after the first time when you take the weapon out of the armoury. When you return it, just cock and hook and hand it over, the armourer will look inside it anyway. This valuable, illegal advice worked for me for 18 months.:ok:
Just as an aside, my personal opinion is that if you fire a round into the pit, you should get a reduced fine as you have at least done some of the safety drill.

[OFBSLF]

If an aircraft was designed with the same gotchas as a 9mm pistol, would any of us accept it?Huh? What gotcha is that? If a 9mm pistol is loaded and you pull the trigger, it goes bang. If you don't want it to go bang, don't pull the trigger or unload it first. What is so hard about 1) removing magazine, 2) lock open the slide, 3) visually and manually check the chamber?

[Jobza Guddun]

[QUOTE=The Helpful Stacker]We had our fuel tanks 'aerated' at R850 by a door slider and his trusty gimpy a few years back.

Remember that one VERY well! Said door gunner was a top bloke actually, took the slight ribbing he received from all ranks with good spirit. For weeks he couldn't come into the bar without everyone diving for cover.....

Mind you, heard he was involved in an accident at Ballykelly later on. Hope you're doing OK D-----.

Jobza

[Like This - Do That]

An RNZN CAPT would be a little older than I am, so like many here on this forum, he'd have learnt service shooting on the good old L1A1. When we introduced the Steyr we had a number of what you call 'NDs' ... the safety catch is a sh1tty thing that pokes through the weapon - out one side, in the other. Very easy to inadvertently push it from safe to fire.

A 1 RAR digger was killed in Somalia as a result of a Steyr UD due to the safety catch being off and him grabbing the 'gat' whilst stumbling or unsteady on his feet (IIRC). The trigger is not protected by a small trigger guard à la M-16 / L1A1 / G3 / L85 etc ... and it's a big plastic sliding plug type thing. Easy to touch when you don't mean to.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Steyr_AUG.jpg

Is it likely that the poor bugger has only used the Steyr a handful of times? Gotten himself into trouble due to old habits and unfamiliarity?

[endplay]

Techie mate in FI 1982. Called to a fault of "system not firing" (when connected to the test set). By the time he arrived the rocks had disconnected the test set and reconnected the missiles. He jumped in the seat pressed the tit and.. Fault Cleared.
Although the missile was circa £22K it was classed as an ND and he got the standard £50 fine.
There was a queue of guys with there chequebooks out but the system of handing over faults was changed to prevent a reoccurence.
There was a similar event in GW1 but that was by a rock, I don't know his fine but it would have been the standard for the time.
So in aprox 30 years and in 2 wars we fired 2 missiles, both by accident.

[peoplespoet]

Talk about people getting of light following Nd's well I know of at least 1 apache instructor that had such an incident and didn't even get told off, in fact they think its funny! I understand that during simulation no action is taken if an ND occurs with either a weapon or the laser; is this not bad drills and potentially breeding contempt for safety and proficiency.?

It must be an AAC thing, as 1 officer in NI dropped his rifle off of a Gazelle (it was left hanging on the stores boom and fell about 100ft), then he tried to had in the bent rifle with the lame excuse that it was like that when he signed it out; yes he got away with it. He is now an OC of a Lynx Sqn.

And only recently on Apache fired its barrel down range, I'm sure that the Ac captain is meant to check that it is secure during the pre-flight inspections? if not an amendment required to the FRCs I fear!

Oh well at least we haven't fired any rockets out side of range arcs yet!!

PP

[Northern Circuit]

As a gd cdr of some experience, several years ago a young lad 'put one up the spout' as he was unloading - it was 4 o clock in the morning and his second week on guard.

I have always followed my own unload drill

'take off your magazine and give it to me' (check top round)

'for inspection port arms'

the simpler we keep the drills the safer they are

[Lynx206]

I have heard a rumour that there was an aircrew type (okay officer pilot) in NI who had an ND. He was sitting at his desk talking on the phone and idly playing with his pistol at the same time. (He may well have been preparing it for cleaning.) While talking to matey on the other end there was a loud explosion as the weapon discharged and blew the body of the phone away. Miraculously, the phone continued to operate with matey asking what had happened. I think the reply was something like, "Well bugger me, I've just shot my phone!" The rub was that with the phone cradle in bits he couldn't hang up the call.

:hmm:

[Roadster280]

my personal opinion is that if you fire a round into the pit, you should get a reduced fine as you have at least done some of the safety drill.

It's a matter of perception. If the result of the ND is an increase in weight of the sand in the pit, then a fine of £X will be forthcoming.

If the result of the ND is holes in objects that previously were intact, then a larger fine will be forthcoming.

If the result of the ND endangers life, then fines may not be the limit of the punishment.

So in effect, you DO get a reduced fine for shooting up the unloading bay.

[Ya Zi]

Last time I had a negligent discharge it cost me thousands. Had to marry her!

[Could be the last?]

R850 - "Door Slider" got considerably more than a slap on the wrist (Top Geezer)!! And the current going rate is approx £200!!