AR REDRESS - ADVICE

[OOpsIdiditagain]

After submitting a redress last year I got a stinker of an ACR. But ho hum, if you can't take a joke and all that. This year the ACR is worse, contains very little truth and in fact several lies and gross exaggerations. I received no counselling, no mid term and last year's de-brief was 'hats on stood to attention, no opportunity to ask questions and finished with a 'now get out of my office.' Gut reaction is to go down the path again as it's a matter of principle and the system should not allow the C2 chain to get away with this sort of thing. Yeah say I'm a fool etc but back it up with facts and be honest about it.

Oopsabout to do it again!

[Tourist]

Have you considered the possibility that you are cr@p at your job?

[insty66]

:E Do it again!
What's the worst that can happen?:ok: :ouch: :}

[OOpsIdiditagain]

Tourist. Mate that's the point. I could be but dont think so. Am in the unusual position of having my ROs not in my line management. My actual supervisors think I'm pretty good or at worst ok at it. They have not been asked for input and also disagree with what's been written.

The AR itself doesn't tackle the job I do at all. Offers loads of criticism but no examples. I have had no guidance this year from the ROs saying I am rubbish and need to buck up.

The Gripe is the report should be fair and balanced. The one or two top things I have done have not been mentioned at all!

[mrwickets]

Sounds to me like you should listen to Insty. Before you act though, give yourself a good dose of navel contemplation. Notwithstanding the apparent imbalance in your ACRs, as a twice ex-Flt Cdr, Sqn-Cdr, appointer and PB President, its very rare in my experience to find 3 reporting officers all in complete agreement. In the end, go with your conscience .... best of luck!

[Pontius Navigator]

Can you not simply state in your response:

The RO has not mentioned that I did a.... b.... and c.... to the entire satisfaction of ACM 'fill in the blanks'.

If you are accurate in what you say then RO has to respond or 2RO will comment or whatever.

My parting shot in the old ACR days to one sqn ldr was 'strange sir, that is exactly what the previous RO wrote last year'

I loved the lovely shade of green :} but I never found out if PMA spotted the similarity. If they didn't it simply showed what :mad: the ACR system was if you were not in the bracket.

[Ali Barber]

Did you win or lose the last redress?

[threepointonefour]

After the 1st RO has written his piece, you have a week to reply. Just add something along the lines of;

"I do not agree with the report from the 1st RO and am now seeking further legal advice."

Can it make the sitch any worse? I guess it depends how long you have left in the job? If the 1st RO is correct, it may be less time than you think?!!

[southside]

A mate of mine had a similar experience and his wife wrote to the First Sea lord, explaining the situation and putting down everything that had happened....

....Blimey, you should have seen the fireworks...but it did the trick and this fellas Divisional Officer was sacked and posted somewhere cold and rainy....


If youre not happy inform whoever wrote the report that your not happy and that you are in the process of penning a letter to Sir Jock...

[TWOL8]

I know it's nicknamed the suicide box, but it's there fo a reason. Construct a sensible, accurate well structured argument-with evidece to back up your claim- and have your say. Providing you don't use it as an opportunity to slate your RO you should at least make someone sit up and notice, and a response that answers your concerns would be required from your second RO. My advice, if you really think the report is unfair and not factually correct, have your say. It's no good a month later wishing you had written something, once it's in the hands of PMA it's too late and by not making comment you are effectively agreeing with the report.
Just remember, evidence your complaint and dont get personal.

Good Luck:ok: :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

First time I wrote in the suicide box pointing out that anything the 2RO had said could not have happened 'in-year' as the other party had left the scene before the year started got a re-write. B*gg*r never said sorry, just erased the evidence.







From his copy :}

[Safety_Helmut]

I agree with TWOL8's approach, and Insty66's sentiments, what's the worst that could happen ? If an RO of mine was writing lies, and I could prove it, I would certainly take it further. Do your research first though.

S_H

[UnderPowered]

Thing is, if the comments are cr@p, then as far as PMA is concerned it'll take another 2 years to clear it from your record anyway. 2 years is the difference between going places and going nowhere in particular. Moreover, the RAF is supposed to thrive on being fair. It says that it'll stamp on unfairness. If you have proof of unfairness, then it has to be addressed. Its an ethos issue. What we can't also have happen, is for unfair senior people to prevail through intimidation. If you have proof of unfair treatment, you ought to be supported by the system. It might not make things better (because of human nature) but it shouldn't make things worse. I'd not threaten it, because that'll give people a chance to back pedal. I'd go straight to 2 ranks above your desky, or if its really bad, somewhere near the top of the PMA system. Sir Jock won't even get to see it. It'll get filtered at his outer office. AMP might. Gp Capts generally open their own mail (I think - I'll never be able to prove it from personal experience!).

Good luck mate.

[buoy15]

OOps
What's your background?
Sounds like your in the RAF, working for the Army, on board a ship undergoing re-fit in the Far East ?
Be advised, a re-dress is a serious charge - it is seen as a threat by those involved - it should never be discussed but should be actioned through the appropriate channels, quickly, correctly and efficiently to a conclusion.
If it is still on-going after 2 ACR's, I would be quite worried.
You could write to your MP, or better still, to Peter Mandelson, for advice on sticky situations and career prospects!
Love many, Trust a few, Always paddle your own canoe:ok:

[Biggus]

Buoy 15

I know that re-dresses are supposed to be actioned 'rapidly', but heard somewhere recently that they were taking on average over 2 years!! Indeed I have heard that some peoples re-dresses have only been completed a considerable time after they have left the armed forces!!!

[dalek]

Oops, Forget opinions and exaggerations. If the ACR contains untruths and you can prove this, it is subject to the laws of libel. If you are brave enough, take the ACR to the civil courts and sue for defamation.

[scottishbeefer]

You can only query factual errors on your report. Any subjective stuff is the prerogative of the RO's isn't it?

If you can't get satisfaction that way, then follow whichever QR's apply to you to move your complaint up-stream. I heartily recommend against Southside's advice if you want to be taken seriously. If it comes to it, the complaint can go all the way to HM herself if you wish, but follow the reg's first.

[South Bound]

A lot of the advice you have been given here is sound. Had some experience of helping people with this kinda thing before and what really hacks me off is that managers/flt cdrs/whatever don't apply the correct processes. If someone is C:mad: p (not saying you are Ooops), fine, then try and help them out, give them every opportunity to improve and make sure they know what is wrong as early as possible.

This is where mid-terms etc are so important, they provide an opportunity to be really open about what someone needs to improve upon to get the sort of F6000/OJAR they want/deserve. If all that help doesn't work, then there are the formal processes to follow (Informal warning, formal warning, admin discharge etc), but it all HAS to be evidence based. If there is no evidence they cannot write it, or take it further.

Oops, if you are not happy, fight it. Best to find someone to bounce the reply off before you send it as these things need to be non-confrontational, non-personal statements of why something is incorrect.

Good luck

[tmmorris]

dalek

Only libel if it's published (which it's not)...

Tim

[A2QFI]

A few years ago I was given a poor and unjustified Annual Appraisal. In the 12 months covered there had been no comment or complaint about me or my work and nothing had been said at the 6 month mid-term interview. As my appraisal affected my pay (Civil Service) I complained. Senior Management got back to the first RO and asked him why, if I was so useless, a formal re-training programme had not been put in place to restore me to an acceptable level of efficiency. Report re-written, changes to grades and a good outcome. At the time I was employed by the Civil Service but working for the RAF and my reporting chain was a junior civil servant, an RAF Sqn Ldr and an RAF Wing Commander. No subsequent nastiness carried over into future reports so I was well pleased. That said, I didn't have a career as such nor any promotion prospects so there hardly could have been a bad outcome. Easy for me but maybe not worth risking if you are climbing a career or promotion ladder.

[dalek]

tmmorris is correct. Any "provable" lies within the narrative are not libel but they do constitute "defamation of character" which I am assured is contrary to the law of the land. I do accept that challenging opinions has to be done using the redress system. Does anyone out there know anybody who has actually wone a redress?

[Danny_Boy]

Before you start thinking about going to your MP/AMP/the Sun, remember one thing. You will look very foolish when they ask what you did at the time and say "nothing". In the first instance you should ask for a one-on-one chat with your 1RO and explain your feelings. If he can justify his comments, and you accept them (however much the truth hurts) - problem over. If you feel that you were't told throughout the year (and specifically in the mid-term), a good line for the suicide box would be "I am disappointed with this report, and feel that because I had no mid-term appraisal I was not given notice of my failings and time to work on them". This should spur the 2RO into action, as a mid-term is compulsory (not optional as some ROs like to believe).

If after the whol process you still feel hard done by then submit a redress, which must be within 3 months of the thing you are complaining about coming to light. Remember that you can only redress on factual (truth/lie) errors or procedural (no mid-term) errors, not the opinion of the RO(s).

Must echo the comment, whilst admitting that I do not know or work with you (to my knowledge), that it is unusal for 3ROs to agree, 2 years running, that you aren't very good. Unless it is true.

Good luck though.

[OOpsIdiditagain]

Cheers all for some sound advice. I expect a face to face soon with the 1RO and will air my problems with the ACR, having taken time to fill in the Suicide box. To answer some questions/points I only have 2 ROs. Both have moved down a position in the ACR chain after previous 1RO quickly posted following previous redress. The whole previous redress was a harrowing tale of attrition. Both the remaining people seem to take it personally that I had chosen to redress after their inaction. In fact my new 1RO, at that time my 2RO, threatened to destroy my career as I had had the gaul to challenge the system. Do I have proof of that? U betch ya! As I said previously, no probs with them believing I ama T%%%%R but the report needs to be factual. It isn't it contains factually incorrect statements that can be easily disproved etc. I will keep this thread updated as things progress.....possibly. Thanks again all.

:uhoh:

[UnderPowered]

The very best of luck to you, me old.