Which JAA Manuals?

[s2h]

Which JAA Manuals? Any SA Locals studying JAA License?Im deciding between Bristol Ground School Manuals and Jeppeson Manuals, the latter being considerably cheaper, I'm paying in South African Rands so I'm seriously considering Jeppeson Manuals.
Any reccomendations? This will all be distance based learning, I believe with my current experience I don't need to attend any ground schooling, just lots of studying and exam writing! Any help?

[policepilot]

Didn't know Jepp did notes. I did the course long distance (PPSC and cutting the edges to save postage) but might I suggest coming over to complete a weeks study to learn exam procedures and get into the swing of it all before the exams.
Can't suggest a school, but cheap and nasty doesn't work. And loads of hard work studying. Don't forget to contact the CAA to get the ball rolling for min requirements, they'll want your logbook etc.
PM me if you need further assistance.

[Airforce1]

Just beware that if you order books from overseas, like from Bristol-it will cost you about 150 pounds for postage, and then the goverment still blasts you a tax on the goods. When the courier company drops it off they will ask for it before handing over the package.
For instance module 1, cost of 1100 pounds- you can expect to pay close on R2000 tax alone. in total you will pay close to R3500 just to get the books delivered. It is cheaper to fly there and bring them back then having them posted. Otherwise get a friend to bring them back if you know any crew doing a stay over in London.

If only someone told me this before hand...:*

[s2h]

Thanks guys!, ive posted this thread under the "questions" section aswell. As I have over 3000 hrs of which 1500 are on the ATR, there is no need for any ground schooling! Luckily my mate is on his way from London shortly, so he can bring the books with him. Looks like it might be the cheaper version, unless a mate can lend me a set.

[organ donor]

I presume you are talking comm? I have both the Bristol notes and the Oxford notes I may be willing to lend out.
I agree with policepilot that you should go over to the UK to do the week brush up somewhere, it is invaluable.

[s2h]

That would be great if I could borrow the notes, just to confirm, I am looking to complete my ATPL JAA license and that you have the correct notes. Im based in JHB, Please feel free to email me whenever possible. It also seems the sensible thing to do, regarding a weeks ground school before writing exams, will definately consider it.

[bushbolox]

S2,
The amount of time you have is irrelevant . If you havent dealt with the CAA exams before it would be to your favour to heed the advice and do a weeks course before you waste your money. Resits are a pain and only the most studious seem to get all first time. I had 10000 hrs and four types bigger than atr when i converted. Dont underestimate the system.
Good luck

[wheels up]

S2h is correct. More than 1500 hrs on multi-crew type = no requirement for ground schooling. ie. You could just book the exams and write. Then again, I have heard from more than one source that it highly reccomended to do a 2 week 'brush up' course before the exams. It costs 14 * 60 GBP to write the exams so failure could be an expensive exercise. The 2 week brush up course on its own (without notes) costs 475 GBP - would need to factor accomodation in there somewhere. The guy that runs the GS at bristol is a Saffrican (ex 43rd). Know a couple of guys that went there and reccomend it.

If you have 500+ hrs on a multi-crew type and do the flight test on that aircraft type, then there is no flight training requirement either in preparation for the flight test. In reality you wouldn't really want to test without prep and you would still need a JAA type rating.
Heres the info from Bristol GS site:

ATPL Conversions
If you are converting a non-JAA ATPL the number of ground and flight tests you need to complete depends on your experience.

High Time Pilots

If you are very experienced you should you should apply to the CAA for a formal assessment using Form SRG 1103.

The qualifying criteria are

- more than 3000 hours total time on aircraft of more than 30,000kg AUW
- more than 1500 hours pilot in command on aircraft of more than 30,000kg AUW
- type rated on an aircraft of more than 30,000kg AUW
- more than 500 hours total time on the aircraft above
- able to complete a flight test on the same aircraft

When you have completed the assessment form you need to send it or take it to the CAA with your original licences and log books. The CAA will tell you that you need to pass two written exams, Human Performance and Aviation Law, and pass a flight test on the aircraft you are rated on. The flight test is referred to as a skills test, it is part handling check and part IR renewal check.

Experienced In Two Pilot Operations

If you don't meet the criteria above but have

- more than 1500 hours on two-pilot aircraft,
- are type rated already and
- have more than 500 hours on type
- you need to pass all 14 ground exams but don't need to attend a formal groundschool course. You will need to pass a skills test on the aircraft you are rated on.

None of the Above
If you fall into neither category above for whatever reason but still hold an ATPL you must complete an approved course of ground training and get your application form signed by your training provider before you sit the full set of ATPL exams. The length of the course can be reduced at the discretion of the Head of Training.

You need to complete two separate flight tests.

- A Skills Test
- An Instrument Rating

The skills test is a handling check flown on a complex aircraft, defined as an aircraft with retractable gear and a variable pitch prop. There is no formal training requirement before the test but you should anticipate 5 to 10 hours to get used to the profile and the aircraft.

If you hold an ATPL you must, by definition, also hold an ICAO IR. This needs to be converted to a JAA IR. The training requirement to convert is to complete at least 15 hours before the test, up to ten can be completed in a flight simulator.

[4HolerPoler]

Great, informative post wheels up. I took advantage of the "High Time" option back in 1998 & did the two exams (paid for 14) and the sim-check. Someone was asking recently whether this option was still available & I wasn't sure - seems like it is.

Good luck s2h.

4HP

[FuelFlow]

The Bristol site obviously relates to the UK CAA JAA licence. There might be different requirements for the different JAA authorities (IE Irish). According to the UK LASSORS 06, if you take on the high time option and complete the 2 exams (Airlaw & Human Factors) you will be restricted to UK registered aircraft only!:confused:

[bushbolox]

Yes 4hp it would seem the back door you used is still wide open and its a disgrace. A windfal for ryr though. I know of many people with those experience levels in (non south) Africa, some genuine but most not. There should be a further filter such as the time being endorsed by a large or reputable audited carrier who an vouch for the time,quality and veracity of training and ops. Additionally my 9000 hrs in Africa had little relevance when operating in an enviroment regulated by an un corruptable authority, and properly utilised airspace and proceedures .A straight swap is not an issue with an Sa licence but thats about the only place that has (or had) a licence of integrity in Africa.
Most of the various selection tech papers for airlines were born of a necessity to weed out the bullsh1tters. Apparranty any muppet with say 3000 creative hrs on a 737/200 in vfr, with no real regulation and wide open airspace is suitable to be considered to bypass a system that many work hard to over come. In one example over a period of about three years many many pilots managed to get the magical 3000/1500 in an african operation on a minor network. No previous it just seems that they were all captains and the a/c flew 28 hrs a day.

[s2h]

Thanx bushbolox, ive been asking around and it does seem like the sensible thing to do, ie: do a refresher course before the exams! Yes it is a costly exercise, but if its going to be done , rather get it done 1st time. Thanx for the help!!

[Airforce1]

s2h,
now you just gotta guide your study time around flying DHL boxes around........................;)

[tired]

s2h

I went this route in 1997 (a year or so before 4HP, he always was a bit slow ;) ) and as it happens I used Bristol's notes for the Navs. I found them absolutely excellent, far far superior to the PPSC notes I had to use for the Techs (because Bristol didn't have Tech notes at that stage). I've never seen the Jepp notes so can't comment on them, but I wouldn't hesitate to recommend Bristol's notes to you. And they were quite happy for me to submit assignments via fax, and to return them to me the same way (I guess email would be the way to go these days) - PPSC resolutely refused to consider this.

I did the studying on my own in Cape Town, and just went over to write the exams - ie no "brush up" course or anything. Luckily I managed to get through all 14 first time, but I did write the Navs and Techs separately, if you're thinking of doing them all together then a crammer/brush up is probably a good idea.

When it came to the flight test I spent a few days in the sim and flying the aeroplane (Seneca, which I'd never flown before) at Bristol Flight School before doing the flight test. Again, made it first time, but I doubt whether I would have done so without those few sessions beforehand - written exams are the same as SA, but the flight test certainly has some of it's own peculiarities! There's no longer a link between Bristol Ground and Bristol Flight, but again I found Bristol Flight extremely helpful and professional - I only had 4 days to do the flying side of things and they went out of their way to help. I think it's still the same management there, so I expect things are still the same. (Top tip - in order to "open" your UK license you need to do a type rating on a G reg aeroplane - I used the Seneca and the IR Flight Test, but nearly got caught out by the fact that you have to do 3 night landings as well. We only realised that on the last day I was there! Fortunately it was winter and the sun set about 1630, so I managed to squeeze it in before dashing back to LHR!!)

The whole excercise - exams/pre-test training/flight test cost me most of £5000 - including about £1000 in various fees to the CAA! - but as you say, it has to be done, so you just have to bite the bullet.

I operate LHR-JNB most months, if you have trouble getting hold of the books PM me and maybe we can make a plan. I'm on leave for most of next month though, so probably won't be on a JNB again till May.

Good luck with it all
t

[s2h]

Close but no cigar airforce1!!! Used to work that side but not any more.ETA pays the rent these days! Got to find time in between all those fajs-fbsk-fajs-fbsk.........all day everyday

[s2h]

Thanks for the info Tired, much appreciated, I get the feeling there are quite a few folk out there that are interested in this kind of thing. After FTC went belly up, did no other local school bother with JAA Schooling/studying/licensing? Might be worthwile for a local setup to get JAA approval, I'm sure financially it would be worthwile!

[wheels up]

Tired - what sort of experience did you have when you converted your licence? I presume you converted to CAA not JAA back in 97. I figure a realistic cost now to convert is at least 15 000 GBP, including the class 1 medical, notes, brush up, exam fees, prep for com and instrument tests, 2 * test fees (600 %$* GBP each!), licence issue etc. Still have to factor in things like accomodation, a couple of celebratory (hopefully) ales etc.

Also bear in mind that for issue of full ATPL you need a JAA multi-crew type rating on your licence. If you have less than 500 hrs on a JAA recognised multi-crew aeroplane then you will need to complete a MCC course before you can fly anything decent.

Anyone out there who's done the conversion recently with any tips?

[dynamite dean]

Okay well for those who don't have the 1500hrs pic on things greater than 30tonnes then here is what happens to you....well me at least!

I hold a SA ATPL I don't have 500hrs on aircraft that require two crew (a king air although not 2 crew as we know, get a letter from your company endorsing that two crew were required then you can bypass 2500 quid or so for the MCC )

The groundschool I didnt have to do although I didnt do the first one I sat on the second, I then completed the 14 exams passed those first time you can it is quite managable but you have to study it took me a year as I was working. I then spent 3 months and just passed the IR here last week ran out of money so back to africa for a couple of moths to pay for the MCC and CPL bit. Okay here are my costs and you can see for yourself how much you should budget..........

475 pounds * 2 for the grounds school = £950
6wks car hire = £600
4weeks at a b an b at £20 per night = £460
exams £770 + ten days at silsoe at £45 = 450 = £1220
IR they say 15hrs but actually it is more like 20 -25 hrs =£7500
Test fees initial 691 plus 460 as I got a partial pass failed the because I didn't maintaing my inbound trk for 15secs in the hols those of you familar with that one!!!! = £1150
Plus £600 for the plane hire for the test = £600

I have yet the CPL bit to do which is £2500 and three weeks accomadation for this at £25 per night +£750
and the MCC another £2000 minimum
Also bought a car for £1000 and I have had to pay the rent pay the council tax, utility bills shopping and live for 6 months whilst doing this!!!!!

So as you can see a quick flip to GF is not what you do here!
Goodluck to you it is worth it in the end I am sure and those that have done it give me a job!:E............pretty please!

[Jelly Doughnut]

If you already have an ICAO ATPL, and the required hours for JAR ATPL, you can convert your license to a JAA ATPL by passing all theory exams and completing a type-rating course on a Multi Pilot Aeroplane.

JAA states will only issue an ATPL license if you have a typerating on a Multi Pilot Aeroplane, eg B737/A320, but not Beech 200/1900!

This route is only viable if-
*you have an ICAO ATPL
*you have >500hrs multi-crew time but on a Single Pilot Aeroplane (B200/1900 or similar)
*your total hours are ok for JAA ATPL issue - as follows

1500 hours as pilot of aeroplanes, to include;
i) 500 hours on multi-pilot aeroplanes,
ii) 250 hours PIC of which up to 150 hours may be PIC U/S,
iii) 200 hours cross country flight of which 100 hours may be as P2 or PIC U/S,
iv) 75 hours of instrument time of which not more than 30 hours may be instrument ground time,
v) not more than 100 hours may be in a flight simulator.


You have to arrange for a UK CAA inspector to observe the License Skill Test , that is the final simcheck of the type-rating course.

Cost for a typerating in the UK somewhere between £15K-£20K.

Doing the conversion this way you don't waste money on converting a CPL/IR first.. Flying around the UK in a small piston doing CPL/IR conversion will come as a shock especially if you have been used to flying turboprops around Africa! Also it doesn't really prepare you for commercial flying.

Bear in mind a lot of operators (eg Easyjet) now charge for the typerating so if you spend £10-£15K on your CPL/IR first you might still end up spending another £15-20K.

Definitely worth considering for the few who find themselves in this position. The airlines are crying out for people and will overlook your lack of "time on type" as your previous experience will be considered. GB, Monarch, and easyJet have all hired pilots direct from the type rating training providers.

With all the majors hiring, there is now a real shortage of experienced and type-rated pilots.

[tired]

Wheels up - I had 8 000 hours, but none of it on aircraft > 30T. The largest aeroplane I had was a Falcon 900, which weighs (I think - memory a bit rusty!!) about 22T. Bugger! But I did have about 4000 hours (3000 PIC) on various multi-crew bizjets, plus another 4000 on various singlecrew GA aircraft. The only written exam I was exempted was Signals, on the strength of my SA Instrument Rating - whoopee! On the flying side I had to do the Initial Instrument Flight Test only. As someone has mentioned, this gave me a UK ATPL, not a JAA one. To be quite frank, if you're planning on working in the UK then there's absolutely no point in getting a JAA license - I don't have one, nor do most of my colleagues. So if you qualify for the UK CAA High Time criteria then go for it. But if you don't, then I guess it's not quite so easy!

As Jelly D said, there's quite a demand for experienced guys at the moment - it seems that if you've got a bit of jet time you'll have a choice jobs, if you've got some airline-type turboprop time you also shouldn't have a problem. Not sure what the Brits think about GA-type flying, it's an unknown quantity to most of them.

Good luck to everyone thinking about doing this, it's an expensive slog and you need to be sure it's what you want to do before embarking on it.

t