stuck left pedal in hover: what do you do?

[thecontroller]

any ideas?

i found this on a website, are these the 3 ways to deal with it? "pump the collective"? anyone care to elaborate on that?

>>
So, today we went to our practice area and I’d bring us to a hover and then the more experienced instructor would take the controls and demonstrate a technique for dealing with this issue. He’d get us spinning left, for instance, and then show me one of three ways to fix it.

First, you can just slowly raise the collective (go straight up) and eventually you get to a point where the pedal input is balanced with the collective input and you stop spinning. Then, you slowly reduce power (throttle) and the helicopter sinks until you are on the ground softly landing.

The second method is to pump the collective. The good thing is it keeps you lower to the ground, but the bad is it kind of makes the helicopter jump up and down until you get it just right and it stops turning.

The third method you actually move the Cyclic in a circlular motion to the right at about a one foot diameter and this also will stop the spin. Again, once you stop spinning you roll off the power and you creep on to the ground. This all assumes you’re hovering.

[SASless]

Left turning rotor or right turning rotor? Rate of rotation? Hand throttle, throttle levers, single or two pilot?

[kwikenz]

This trick was one of my old testing officers favourites in the 300 or Robbie. It actually happened to him in a Huey once I believe.
Start a hover turn to the left... oh :mad: pedal jams.
Short verion... its a little clolurful close to the surface (depending on what sort of mood he was in) but if you catch it quickly with throttle (poor old thing flogs its guts out at the bottom of the lower arc) it spins into the wind and simply maintain direction with the twist grip whilst settling quietly with collective.
Rate of turn differed wildly on different days and it can sure give you a fright but the technique seems to work:ooh:

[autosync]

Assuming you are talking about an Anti clockwise spinning rotor.
Its all about restablishing the gentle balance and counter balance.

My preferred method woud be to reduce RRPM by gently rolling off the throttle while raising the collective to increase the main rotor Torque, that should balance out the increased Tail rotor thrust.
You dont want it to climb because you will start to sink with the reduced RRPM and if you are high up you could hit the ground with quite a bang.
Also you want be level and balanced when touching down, for obvious reasons.
Simple enough manouvre to grasp, worth practicing aswell, its quite easy for a small stone or something loose to lodge in the pedals of some of the older model 206's and 120's and if you are flying solo with Duals in an important peflight check that is often overlooked is to check for loose objects in the cockpit.

[Arm out the window]

Rolling off the throttle to reduce the rotor RPM in increments works well - say you're in a left pedal turn, try to stop it and the pedal's stuck.

1. Don't hit anything.

2. Reduce throttle 'a bit' to achieve a particular rotor rpm drop - say 5% reduction for example. Initially, the turn will quicken due to the torque reduction, but don't panic. Hold your hover height, and as the rotor revs stabilise at the lower figure, your turn will slow due to torque being almost the same as before, but tail rotor now going slower.

3. If still turning reasonably quickly to the left, repeat step 2 as required.

4. When the turn's nearly stopped, gently lower the aircraft onto the ground. Friction on the skids will hold you once the weight's on, as long as you continue to gently wind the throttle off as the collective is lowered.

This can be practiced with an instructor, but watch your allowable power on rotor rpm limits.

[rotorfloat]

The 'pumping the collective' method is more or less, getting the rotor system ahead of the governor (if installed). If you have exhausted your lower RRPM limits, or you have little or no RRPM range (in training; real emergency-what limit?), and you still find yourself turning left...

Your series of quick pulls will overpitch the machine essentially, RRPM will drop, altitude will increase and the guv will say "Wow that was fast! Heres some torque" As the nose rotates around, you quicky lower the pole, but the governor is still pouring on that last bit of torque (now excess torque, as you've flattened pitch very quicky). You will find yourself straight for a moment. Ground comes rushing up, pull again. Repeat.

By experimenting with how fast and hard you have to pump the collective, you can keep it straight and eventually work yourself lower and lower to touchdown.

[helmet fire]

The answer is sooooo aircraft dependant that there is no one solution fits all. Some of those three work on some aircraft, some of them dont work at all. For example, you cannot reduce throttle incrementally on some aircraft (EC120, AS350B3, and even 206 is hard) with enough finess, other sircraft still have enough T/R thrust at low NR to nulllify the technique (light weight B212 for example) and others are complicated by mixing unit interference dependant upon what the malfunction is and where in the control system it jammed.

Aircraft specific I'm afraid.

[thecontroller]

in the hover, in an r22

stuck right = roll off and raise. pretty simple, i understand that

stuck left = err... roll off and raise also.

i dont get how its the same procedure for both?? doesnt make sense

[helmet fire]

controller,
you will need to grab a coffee and sit down with your instructor for a half hour or so. The techniques and reasons behind your question are detailed. I will start by simplifying it this way in the hover with stuck pedal:
with power pedal forward you need to reduce RRPM/increase torque required - slowly. with non power pedal forward you need to reduce torque - roll throttle off comensurate with turn rate. cyclic into turn once on ground.

But from your question, the half hour explanation would be the way to understand this better so that you can use the knowledge later to help remind you of the overall goal and adopt techniques appropriate to aircraft type to achieve the goal.

[Vertical T/O]

With stuck left peddle raise collective to equalise the torque to the amount of anti torque then roll off throttle gradually to reduce RPM, hence reducing lift in the rotor system. Stuck right peddle is the opposite as in you roll off the throttle rapidly first to get rid of torque then you raise the collective to cushion the touch down, essentially a hover auto. Hope that clears it up.

I was told if you have a large left rotation quick jerk on collective to rapidly increase torque and then roll off.

[thecontroller]

"sit down with my instructor". errrr, i am the instructor!. i am going to start teaching it to students soon and wanted to try it out and get my head around it. it wasnt really covered on my PPL/CPL/CFI so hence i'm a bit in the dark about the realities of it in the r22.

thanks everyone!

[Flingwing207]

"sit down with my instructor". errrr, i am the instructor!. i am going to start teaching it to students soon and wanted to try it out and get my head around it.I'm going to make a serious suggestion - this isn't something you should be teaching if you have never practiced/trained. Especially in the R22, the risks of inadvertant ground contact at the wrong time (with subsequent rollover a real possibility) loom large.

Get some time training with an IP who has solid experience IN THE R22 doing these maneuvers! (Just so you know, I train folks both in the R22 and 300 - working my way out of the neophyte realm with 800 hours dual given.)

[helmet fire]

You are the instructor? and it wasn't covered on your PPL? Not your CPL? And not your CFI?
And this must be a wind up.
I suggest you spend the next week doing some serious research and give ol' PPRUNE FAN #1 a call. He would love to give you a few gentle tips.....:ok:

Disclaimer: if this is not a wind up, my advice is to have your insurance all paid up, and go solo. Dont risk your student's life with your ambitions to test and develop already well understood and established techniques.


Oh yeah, after we helped you with all this advice, Can you video it for us?
:8

[helmet fire]

Sounds exactly like what Frank Robinson was trying to change when he was concerned about the accident rate for the R22 during instruction......but what would he know?;)

I still want the video......:8

[thecontroller]

this is not a windup

i know, it embarassing, it wasnt covered on my JAA PPL (gained in the UK), nor or my FAA licences (gained at HAI). dont forget its not in the FAA PTS (well, the ground knowledge is, but no requirement for flight demo)

although, an instructor did demo stuck right to me during my SFAR and i have done that with students, pretty easy. i tried the stuck left once, it wasn't pretty, hence my post.

i'm going to try to find a more experienced instructor to demo it to me.

[moosp]

There is another way. If you have 360 degrees of clearance then push with the cyclic. Then you can fly away and sort out the problem at 60 knots.
There have been many accidents and incidents with helicopters rotating out of apparent control in the hover. An attempt is made to land but the sucessful landing in these cases is usually only made by high time PPLs or experienced CPLs and above.
What you are trying to teach here will be forgotten in a year. It is fine for instructors to teach advanced techiniques for loss of control recovery, but let's be honest, if it happens a year later what is the chance of a student remembering the procedure?
If you fly out a tail rotor problem in the hover, then at least you have a time to sort it out, with possible assistance from an instructor/high time CPL-ATPL who has made it to the tower. You can make practice approaches to explore the controllability of the machine. If you can get to a licenced airfield the fire and emergency services will be having their first day out in months and will be right there for you.
Trying to do a quick procedure is fine for you high time guys, but for the rest of us, we need time to think, plan, rehearse and then execute these things, surrounded by all the assistance we can find.

[Flingwing207]

There is another way. If you have 360 degrees of clearance then push with the cyclic. :ooh: :ooh:

[moosp]

Ok fling, I was probably a bit simplistic there, let's just leave it at "fly it out."
:O :O :O

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

So Mr Moosp - you're saying, take the aircraft away from 5 ft above the ground where the most that could happen is a few bruises and a wrecked helo or take off into a spriralling towering take off and try to not get too dizzy while trying to get enough airspeed on to make the possibility of a fast run on landing at an airfield with a fire truck ?

Mr Selfish - I'm with yer baby !

[nigelh]

I agree....much rather have a small crash or maybe not , from 5 foot than possibility of massive pile up !!!! Dont forget the problem may be more than just an obstruction and things could get much worse if you fly off. All in all ....a ridiculous idea !!!!:eek: Also , as i have said before, please dont keep wrecking robbies demonstrating things that almost never happen....all it does it push premiums even higher.:{

[DBChopper]

I agree....much rather have a small crash or maybe not , from 5 foot than possibility of massive pile up !!!!

And wouldn't we all, in Theoryland. But in Realworld, how many of us lowtimers, with a spinning helicopter a few feet above the ground, are going to have the extra brain capacity to be pulling collective, pumping collective, twisting throttle (the right way) and shouting b:mad: s at the same time?

Not me I'm 'fraid! I'd love to think I'd handle it like a pro', and I can get my head around the theory, but realistically I think I would probably pull some collective to get me away from the hard stuff and, as Moosp suggests, fly it away if I can so that my spinning brain has time to realign itself and decide on a plan of action.

The best solution? Probably not. But the more likely? Yep! :rolleyes:

[nigelh]

I would forget about all that pulling and pushing crap . I am saying dont go off flying out of control !!! Just put it on the ground as hard as you like, you are probably not going to hurt yourself or anyone else.....if you fly off in a state of shock with full pedal you are going to become a statistic...why do it ? Insurance is there for this reason and not,in my opinion, to keep Frank Robinson in pocket money everytime some idiot "demonstrates" an EOL and screws it up !!!!!!!!:{ :{

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

controller - Right pedal towering take offs are taught/demonstrated at Dutch Country helos as a last ditch attempt to get out of a high density altitude situation where a walk off is not possible. A spinning towering take off in the Bell47 - I wouldn't want to do it in Robbo though !:} Does anyone else demonstrate or recommend this manouvere ?

[Disguise Delimit]

Crazy to fly away from the ground while spinning. If you don't keep it perfectly level, you get roll coupling (horizontal spin becomes a vertical spin) and then you are stuffed.

Once any vertical spinning starts, the show stops. A Bell 47 in Sydney demonstrated that one a few years back, trying to fly away from a tail rotor failure at low speed, to get streamlining to stop the spin. The rotation became more vertical, and the result was an uncontrolled crash into Goldfields House and a 400 foot drop to the street, instead of a more controlled sploosh into the harbour on floats.

[maxeemum]

FLY A Fixed Wing

:{

Max

[DynamicallyUnstable]

I'm amazed you weren't trained in this at HAI! I am an HAI student and recieved plenty of training on this. It is actually really easy (at least in the 300). You'd be wise to get some training on it before trying it, if you value your life, job, student, AC.

[delta3]

A number of 'schools of thought' observed in this track

- train it
-> what - how (never done a stuck left padel with left rotation in a Robby)
- do not train it
-> hope it does not happen ?

Perhaps another approach : avoidance.

-> what are the most common "real world" cases of stuck pedals, so that we can avoid them.

I have always been wondering about that in training : I was never really given a reason why/how those things get stuck.

Any guys with real world cases that like to share them ?

d3

[Hilife]

Stuck Left Pedal in the Hover-What would you do?

Hand over to P2 and jump.:)

[Thomas coupling]

A jammed pedal in the hover is to be treated as a serious malfunction. You won't know its jammed until you commence a yaw input. If you turn in the direction of the rotors the a/c will descend. If you turn in the opposite direction to the rotors, the helo will climb.

In both instances you must LAND.

Easy in the direction of the rotor as the helo is descending.
If it climbs, roll the throttle(s) off slowly, or bring the engine lever back to GI.

EITHER WAY, DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES CLIMB OR FLY AWAY FROM THE HOVER. You will enter a whole new area of uncontrolled test flying probably ending in a violent and painful crash.

You dont know why it jammed why would you want to go flying with it then????????????????

[Above Datums]

Way i was always taught to deal with it in the hover was to close the throtle(s) and cussion the touch down, reason being (if my knowledge of PofF is correct :confused: ) the tail rotor provides counter torque power-on and friction power-off, by closing the throttle(s) you take away the drive to the main and tail rotor and so the a/c wants to yaw the other way, in a normal auto the tail rotor provides friction to stop this happening. So by closing the throttle with a stuck pedal (or total loss of the tail rotor) the yaw rate slows, maybe even stops, and you can use the remaining Nr to cussion your arrival at the ground. I have practised BOTH left and right pedal stuck and also total loss of tail rotor, all in the hover and this works. :ok:

[Shawn Coyle]

At the risk of asking the bloody obvious - how many times have stuck pedals happened (aside from the UH-1H and earlier machines)?
Aren't we practicing something that happens so rarely that we're confusing the bejeesus out of people for no good reason, and setting ourselves up for things that (almost) never happen?
There is almost nothing in the tail rotor control system of most helicopters that is going to jam the pedals (unless it's something falling into the cockpit controls part), so how exactly will this 'emergency' happen?

[Thomas coupling]

Spoilsport Shawn :ugh:

[Above Datums]

Mr Selfish,

I should have said i've practised this in a sim with FULL left and right rudder and yes it does work quite nicely. Also for the total loss of the tail rotor, which spins ruddy fast! :}

[Above Datums]

MS,

Rate of yaw is faster whith a lost tail rotor then it is when it is stuck and yeah it is a good way of keeping up to date with your drills. (Also allows your instructor to fail multiple systems "for a laugh" or give you a bird strike on finals!):mad:

[chopperpug]

I was going to say..bullet casings, but looks like someone beat me to it. The number culprit..which is why nearly all of our shooters up here have shell socks on their guns now. Swags not that much of an issues as it fits in the seatbelt...unless your lumping a double swag around for some reason....which having seen most of the gender up here kindly known as female...i think i will stick to a single for as long as possible. The other objects known to jam pedal also include bottles of rum. Solution? drink as much as you can before you crash. Oh...and you should see the spin that results from a spent shell down the shirt, let alone in the pedals. :}

[NickLappos]

Shawn is so very right, I only sit here and marvel.

Since 40% of our accidents are CFIT, and 0% are stuck whatchamacallit in a whazit, I am totally amused.

Someday we will train and fly so that we study accident cause #1 as the top priority, and accident cause #2 as the second, and so on.

Once I saw an H-53E (a 3 engined monster) doing 11 power recovery autorotations in a row. Eleven. This thread is 4 pages long, already, and growing. Same thing. Go figure.

[thecontroller]

thanks for all the replies. yeah, nick is right. i've often wonder we spend all day doing autos when engine failures are hardly ever the cause the accidents

if i ever get a stuck pedal, i imagine i'll do the same as 95% of pilots. ie sh*t themselves, spin around very quickly, and bash it into the ground, and hopefully walk away

[dammyneckhurts]

I think that it's a very valuable skill to be proficient in dealing with stuck/failed pedals.

The chance of a pilot EVER have an emergengy of this nature is almost nil, however, the skill that you aquire enabling you to deal with a pedal emergengy may well help you avoid an accident at some point in your career.

For example, you are still fairly new to the game..flying at altitude for the first time, you come in to land on a mountain top and the wind isnt quite what you thought and all of a sudden or short final you run out of left pedal (on this day your in a Bell) and the nose seems to be wanting to go right and you cant stop it.

The skill and knowledge that makes you compentent in dealing with T/R emergencies, will definatly help you out in a situation like this. Knowing exactly what happens when you raise/lower collective, increase/decrease RPM, knowing that if you are power limited and you push in more pedal it may slow your RPM, which results in lower thrust from the T/R etc....you need to instinctively know what to do in a situation like this. Do you have to put it on the ground? Is it possible to fly away? Managing your power and directing it to the component (M /R or T/R) that needs it the most may well save your skin.

How about when your staggering out of a confined area, and you are running out of T/R....you miss read the wind a bit and now it feels like it wants to swap ends.

Your longlining and the load isnt quite clearing the top of the trees due to lack of power (ya ya get a bigger helicoper I know...dream on) ....exchanging a bit of a bit of pedal to put more power to the blades at times just be enough to get you up the extra few feet. Now you are controling yaw with the collective. If you are power limited you may be controling RPM with pedal.

My point is that learning to deal with T/R issues is a vital skill set that will help pilots in more ways than the obvious!

[helmet fire]

Shawn and Nick make a valid point, but.... is it that the stuck pedal accident rate is 0% because we train for it, or because it never happens?

In Australia, as pointed out by Ned, there are lots of stories of stuck pedal due swag/bullet casings/camera restrictions and even a few of cable/control rod jam. The EC-120 (do a pprune search) have suffered several instances of this due to front floor design allowing objects (so far most have been mobile phones) to slide forward in the cruise and jam the pedals on the left hand side. And don't mention the Huey....

I believe that this emergency should be trained for in detail for particularly susceptible types and just generally covered for other types. I made the point earlier that handling this emergency can be type specific and so should the decision whether to train for it on that particular type at all. Subsequent "heres how you do it..." posts from crewroom QFIs have reinforced this view. I mentioned on the jackstall thread that there seems to be a type endorsement problem in the industry, and this seems thread seems to help confirm it.

I have always agreed that more time and money should be spent on reducing big killers like CFIT, but stuck pedal situations are easy to teach, easy to understand, and do not require huge flying hour investments to achieve. I do not endorse pilots in the Huey or EC 120 until they can do stuck pedal and so far each pilot has been able to cope easily.

I am still wondering if thecontroller has given it a shot yet? Is there video?

[Nigel Osborn]

Deguise Delimit

That 47 accident was nearly 40 years ago. Jim was a very capable ex air force pilot & died along with his 2 passengers.
The problem was the tr pitch change link broke due to faulty manufacturer. The blade rotated & flew off causing a massive out of balance problem which in turn caused the other blade & gear box to fall into the harbour. The fallen items weighed 32 lbs at the very end of the boom which put the forward c of g some 12 inches minimum out of limits. This made the 47 unflyable, regardless of what Jim tried to do & we do not know what he tried; that is pure speculation. The 47 clipped the AMP building & landed hard on the Goldfields building ending up in an empty office, being a Saturday morning, & not in the road. Jim was cleared totally at the subsequent court cases.

I am brave enough to disagree somewhat with Nick in that I think all emergencies should be demonstrated & practised as per the flight manual. Yes CFIT is No1 but why not practise No2, No3, etc as well. I'm sure most pilots would prefer to make a soft comfy landing after a failure or pilot stuff up than to risk injury by smashing the machine when a little correct training could maybe have prevented the hard bump.

[havoc]

A meeting was held at FAA Headquarters in March to address the shortage of qualified FAA Inspectors to administer helicopter CFI initial tests. It appears that as a result of that meeting, touchdown autorotations will soon be eliminated as a requirement on the Helicopter CFI PTS. Due to the inordinate number of hard-landing accidents that have happened during the conduct of touchdown autos on check rides, evidently the NTSB had previously recommended to the FAA that touchdowns be eliminated from the CFI practical test.
It appears that instead, there may be a requirement similar to the CFI Airplane spin endorsement, whereby an applicant for a helicopter CFI will be required to have an endorsement from a CFI stating that the applicant has successfully demonstrated proficiency in performing and teaching a touch-down autorotation. This change will mandate that some touchdown practice and proficiency still be conducted during CFI training, but no demonstration of an actual touchdown will be required on the CFI check ride - only power-recovery.
This should all become effective and hit the street in the form of an FAA Bulletin or new CFI PTS release in a matter of weeks or maybe even days. The good news is that this change will free up some FSDO Inspectors who were not previously National Resource Inspectors, to now administer CFI initial check rides.

[212man]

Can I go to the back of the queue for the CFIT training, please? Sounds like an expensive and painful exercise, presumably only done once!:uhoh:

(Before I get jumped on; it was tongue in cheek!)

[NickLappos]

Nigel is right, but I was refering to the fact that the #1 killer can't get elected dog-catcher, but we spend hours discussing esoteric emergeinies that occur once per century.

How about a new thread - What to do if the main rotor shaft breaks. Happens just as frequently.

Now that my rant is over, the solution to a stuck tr control in a hover is do nothing. Since the tr is stuck where you left it, you are not spinning wildly, so just cool your jets. When you finish getting nervous, just roll down the throttle about 5 to 10 % Nr, and let the aircraft sink. It will probably rotate to the left a bit, but so what. Let it sink to tounchdown, then roll the throttle all the way off, lower the pitch, and buy a beer.

[Gaseous]

Careful what you ask for Nick.
MR Shaft fracture.
Easy. Fly 10 ft from ground.

NTSB Identification: IAD01LA031.
Accident occurred Saturday, February 03, 2001 in Napoleon, OH
Probable Cause Approval Date: 5/13/2003
Aircraft: Enstrom F28A, registration: N98PM
Injuries: 3 Uninjured.

The helicopter developed a vibration, and the pilot elected to return to the departure airport. On final approach to landing, approximately 10 feet above the ground, the main rotor mast fractured, and the main rotor system departed the helicopter. The pilot and two passengers were not injured. :eek:

PS. Mine has the fatter shaft.

[Helicopspeeder]

Great thread guys, seems there are as many remedies to this situatuion as there are heli's for it to happen to. I'll throw another spanner into the works. Recently did some great company check training (here in Australia) with our chief pilot. We have 8 helis parked in close proximity to each other at a busy G.A. ramp. The emergency we practised was a stuck left pedal on T/O. Putting the machine back on the ground without rolling four or five million dollars worth of helicopters into a ball was not an option. We didn't fly it away, simply accepted the spin (it's still flying) raised the club enough to clear the hard things and moved it to a more benign area. Aside from the obvious clearance issues this also allowed me some time to get my head around the emergency.(And realise that I had very little idea how to get out of it). In the 206 we simply reduced the throttle enough to slow or stop the turn rate and induce a gentle decent. With 2hrs fuel and two up we dropped the rrpm down to about 87% where it stayed quite happily and we settled it onto the ground with about ten knots forward.
Stuck pedals, mostly due to spent shell casings are a serious risk here in Aus and after having spent the last 8 years or so using bell 47s and 206s to shoot feral animals I can tell you it is a constant concern. CASA has mandated the fitting of casing capture devices on all ejecting firearms being discharged from aircraft. This is also due to T/R damage from ejected shells.
If you can find someone with experience teaching these emergencies and get them to go for a spin (literally) with you then you may be able to keep that machine with the spinny, propeller thingy pointing up.
Later.

[Arm out the window]

Running on from havoc's post about touchdown autos, it's interesting to hear of regulators looking to remove the requirement for them from testing for instructor qualification.
Personally, I love autos and would like to think that the vast majority of instructors could do a good one themselves, but I'm also well aware of the good chance of bending a machine in the pursuit of smooth engine off touchdowns, so I can understand owners not wanting to have their aircraft subjected to heaps of engine-offs for no great gain.
Obviously there's a compromise to be reached between realistic practice and going stupid for no good reason, but I hope that the regulatory authorities can strike the right balance.
I've been told by our own regulatory authority that touchdown autos are required for endorsements (B206, for example), but how many actually do them? I'd be happy to myself - as I say, they're fun, but I can equally understand the position of the owner who doesn't want his machine off line for an expensive repair when a power terminated auto may have done the job as well.

[Thomas coupling]

Seems there is a case to continue the debate for these rarities then?
Fact is often stranger than fiction.

[Gaseous]

My post above wasn't entirely without point.

My point was that if you can fly the thing to within 10 ft of the ground there is a pretty good chance you will live. It doesnt get much worse than the rotor falling off yet no-one was hurt.

I suspect the same applies stuck pedals. If you just head for the ground it may be messy but you will probably live, whatever your technique.

I'm sure if people start routinely practising hovering with a stuck pedals it will be a just matter of time before someone writes one off.

[nigelh]

I have always thought it crazy to practice things that will not help save life, whilst at the same time wreck loads of helicopters which only has the effect of putting insurance up and therefore pricing someone else out of the market. Autos to the ground are not necessary and i hope this will reduce the number of neadless claims.
On the subject of shooting out of Helis, is it illegal to do this in UK due to dropping an object rule or can you get dispensation....only interested as shooting rabbits and foxes sounds great fun at 20 knots 20 feet !!:ok:

[SASless]

I'm sure if people start routinely practising hovering with a stuck pedals it will be a just matter of time before someone writes one off.

I guess I am a survivor of the odds there Gas....been doing it since 1967 and haven't come remotely close to barking my shins. Did survive a particularly nasty crash in a 412 when the guy driving rolled both throttles off at a high hover with a stuck left pedal. (Fortuitously it was in the simulator!) It was one of those well known "I learned from that experiences!"

Part of the fascination with such drills is learning how the aircraft reacts to throttle and collective or the combinations of both.

When you fly Huey's with the chain drive tail rotor controls....it does not hurt to be up on stuck pedal situations as they can happen should the chain get a bit recalcitrant.

[Helipolarbear]

....it does not hurt to be up on stuck pedal situations as they can happen should the chain get a bit recalcitrant.:}
RECALCITRANT! Hope they never publish that word :} in any RFM.......

[Arm out the window]

nigelh, I think there's a case for at least some proficiency in touchdown autos in an instructor rating - it's one of those sequences that really boosts the confidence, and I'd like to see it at least demonstrated to any student learning to fly a helicopter as well.
A bit like stalling or spinning (in an approved type) a fixed wing - why do it, rather than just talk about it? To show that there's no big scary mystery, if it's done right.

The shooting out of helicopters thing is common for culling feral pigs etc, just needs approval.

[170']

Nick L

TR failure training, has always been more of a co-ordination exercise
than anything else. You have to fill the check ride up somehow.Just to get the trainee thinking!

No one expects the actual TR event to occur, but it gives people a few
minutes (premise; a competent IP) to play around close to the ground
in a non standard config.

It refreshes overall skill and confidence (as in any time you fly with a
competent and current IP).. It should anyway?

Nick.Give us your thoughts on providing a thorough 135/LPC/PPC ride in
say a Bell 206 or Astar..

Imagine a small operator, 3-4 machines, You're the DO/CP /Check Airman.

Scenario is: I'm a line pilot and haven't had any training since my
last 135 and OAS rides around 12 months ago. We've talked about the machine.pre-flight is done, and we're are sitting on an uncontrolled field.the courseware is you,the machine and me! It's a VFR ride similar to the many thousands given every year for standard 135/OAS Ops

This is a food for thought exercise! I appreciate your comments about CFIT etc..But I'm trying to figure out how? at grass roots level, can the training department (such as it is) lift it's game. but incorporating the 84-10/LPC/PPC items that have to be accomplished regardless.

Bear in mind; the small operator is pretty tight on available Check
and training hours. Factory school or FSI is out of the question, as the owners only gonna pay for that if mandated by the FEDs or Insurance...

170'

[Belljockey]

Nigelh re: Autos to the ground
I am glad that in my training I HAD to do many, because when I realy had to do one in the real world, even with all the adrenalin flowing I still didn’t panic as I new I could pull it off (no cheap remarks please) and I did with zero damage or injuries:)

[KikoLobo]

With a flat sourface, i would probably do a hovering auto, which are fairly good in this machines...

[IHL]

Tail rotor failures do happen. Every year in Canada there are accidents attributed to Loss of tail-rotor or loss of tail rotor effect (LTE), though the later is more prevalent.

Though more accidents are attributed to collision with terrain there are still a significant number attributed to tail rotor issues .

I know one pilot who has expeinced 2 (two) complete tail rotor failures during his career. I think it is still worthwhile to train for it .

From the report in the link:
"The helicopter lost tail-rotor authority while in a hover at low altitude, positioning a heavy load. The pilot could not regain control before the helicopter crashed."

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/2002/A02W0178/A02W0178.asp
"
The pilot lost yaw control when the tail-rotor drive shaft's splined drive became disengaged from the tail-rotor transmission input gear"

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/2001/A01P0047/A01P0047.asp
"

[wlynx]

Above Datum

Rumour has it that an EMS captain in Australia practiced autos in a B412 sim and this helped with the successful out come when a “real” one became necessary.:cool:

MS

A good safe way to practice if you have access to a full motion mock up sim. for both auto's and stuck pedal emergencies. the only problem with autos in a sim is Depth Perception ( or lack of it I should say ) which means judging when to flare in an auto is very difficult. I had to resort to using the Rad alt on the Army lynx sim in Detmold.

[Weads]

This topic has been touched on a little bit but I do have one question that I would like to ask. I remember demonstrating stuck left pedal on a max performance on take off and my instructor used clockwise movements of the cyclic and pumped the collective to slow down the rate of left turn. What do these do that they would decrease the rate of turn? Thanks

[[email protected]]

Overcontrolling in the hover - since that is what he is effectively doing - saps power by increasing drag.

[Hughes500]

depends which way the rotor turns really !

[SilsoeSid]

Stuck left pedal ...

... use the right one :rolleyes:

[Ascend Charlie]

instructor used clockwise movements of the cyclic and pumped the collective

Did he, perchance, have only 100 hours more time than you?

[Weads]

How would drag on the main rotor affect the spin?

[Weads]

the rotor turns counter clockwise. its a robbie

[Vertical Freedom]

my instructor used clockwise movements of the cyclic and pumped the collective to slow down the rate of left turn. What do these do that they would decrease the rate of turn? Thanks
With Mr Bean as Your instructor nothing surprises :eek: Stirring the pot don't do diddly squat for the rate of rotation :ugh: I dare say Your instructor has a huge amount of ego to Peel off before he kills someone, or teaches someone to unwittingly F up :=

[Weads]

I'm obviously not the first to be taught this. stuck left pedal in hover: what do you do? [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums (http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-219035.html)

[dimit]

Pull collective to increase torque and stop the rotation. Stir the cyclic to shed lift and start descending. Pump the collective to reduce lift and continue descending without starting to spin again. (Actually, in this phase the collective stays down more than up so that you descend, and you pump it up to control the rotation.) Stop stirring the stick when you get close to the ground to avoid dynamic rollover. Set 'er down on a collective down stroke. That's how we do it here in the wilds of Northern Alberta where there's nothing but swamp and boreal forest as far as the eye can see.

Practice with an instructor!

[Ascend Charlie]

Read what Weads put up:
If stuck in a gentle left pedal turn in the hover:
a. roll off a little throttle. Turn will initially speed up and acft wants to sink - hold off the ground with lever. More torque but lower TR RPM, turn will slow down, maybe even stop.
b. If still turning, repeat.
c. when turn stops, allow bird to sink slowly to ground.

As Helmet Fire said in the archive, it is aircraft specific. Works on some. Roof-mounted throttles are a bit trickier to make it work if you don't have anybody up front with you.

[SASless]

Analyze the cause of the problem using the evidence and situation.

The root cause is excess thrust being produced by the tail rotor (if Left turning Rotor.....insufficient thrust if Right turning Rotor) for the situation laid out by the original post.

Reducing RPM cures one (left turning
) by reducing Tail Rotor thrust, lowering the Collective reduces Toque in the other.....and rotation should decrease in either case.

If the rotation remains excessive for a safe landing....fly away and make an approach using minimum RPM and maintain forward speed until within a foot or so of the ground and decelerate until the aircraft is aligned with the movement alocross the ground or at a hover.....and land (left turning Rotor).

Understanding all factors that pertain to Torque control beyond just the Pedals is the key. Just as far too many fixed Wing Pilots fail to know what the Rudder can do on an airplane.....far too many helicopter pilots fail to fully understand "torque" in helicopters.

Right turning Rotor.....fly away and make an approach and running landing using least torque possible....or autorotation expecting some rotation at touchdown.

[SASless]

Pull collective to increase torque and stop the rotation. Stir the cyclic to shed lift and start descending. Pump the collective to reduce lift and continue descending without starting to spin again. (Actually, in this phase the collective stays down more than up so that you descend, and you pump it up to control the rotation.) Stop stirring the stick when you get close to the ground to avoid dynamic rollover. Set 'er down on a collective down stroke. That's how we do it here in the wilds of Northern Alberta where there's nothing but swamp and boreal forest as far as the eye can see.

Practice with an instructor!

If very mild perhaps.....try that with a big boot full of stuck pedal.

One scenario....perform a max power vertical takeoff as if leaving a clearing surrounded by those tall trees you mention.....do not bring your power pedal back...leave it at the most position required to maintain heading.....then try your jiggly stick Procedure....and let us know how you get on.

What I described is a way of getting a realistic "max" pedal input....not just a very small excess.

If all you have to do is roll off a tiny bit of throttle and instantly cure the cause of the problem.....why do the jiggly bit which does nothing to cure the cause of the problem?

[[email protected]]

Sas, I don't think a max power take-off in an R22 is very exciting at all - it just about pulls the skin off a rice-pudding but not much more:)

[dimit]

Good discussion.

Beeping down or rolling off throttle can be very effective, and that's why I like to keep it in reserve. I like the idea of keeping some tricks in my bag, just in case. Also, it's a lot harder on those ships that don't have a twist throttle. I'm a simple man, so I like to keep my initial responses as similar as possible across types.

[Weads]

Pull collective to increase torque and stop the rotation. Stir the cyclic to shed lift and start descending. Pump the collective to reduce lift and continue descending without starting to spin again. (Actually, in this phase the collective stays down more than up so that you descend, and you pump it up to control the rotation.) Stop stirring the stick when you get close to the ground to avoid dynamic rollover. Set 'er down on a collective down stroke. That's how we do it here in the wilds of Northern Alberta where there's nothing but swamp and boreal forest as far as the eye can see.

Practice with an instructor!

Exactly the concise answer I was looking for! Question though : does stirring the stick in a clockwise motion which is opposite or the rotor spin create another gyroscopic force which opposes the spin? Swashplate is moving clockwise while rotor is counter clockwise thus helping to slow the spin?

[[email protected]]

another gyroscopic forceit's not a gyroscope, it's a rotor, so no.

[Weads]

it's not a gyroscope, it's a rotor, so no.

I thought it was a far stretch so thank you! So if I'm correct cyclic stirring does absolutely nothing to slow the rate of turn directly or indirectly correct? My understanding is that it only makes the rotor system less efficient so we can keep lost of power (torque) in and still descend correct?

[albatross]

When doing training I would wait until the victim did a little bit of a "Hotdog" takeoff and jam the pedal. The results were a good lesson. I am refering to recurrent training and not flying with lowtime students.
Doing circuits for autos was the prime time because after 3 or 4 full ons the guy was having fun and wanted to get back upstairs in a hurry. Also by this time we were usually light on fuel with lots of power available.
Did some training with Bell and they had a very good method of recovery.

[ShyTorque]

Unfortunately, "Rolling off throttle" isn't an easy option on many modern helicopters, where the engines are computer controlled.

[SASless]

Sas, I don't think a max power take-off in an R22 is very exciting at all - it just about pulls the skin off a rice-pudding but not much more:)
Of "Robbie's" I am completely not knowing ....beyond upon seeing one I have an immediate craving for a double cheeseburger and giant order of French fries , a Big Gulp soda followed by a huge Banana Split for dessert!

All that to ensure I cannot fit through the door of one ever!

[[email protected]]

Shame the CAA examiner who did my type rating check on it 35 years ago didn't think finding it difficult to get in the door was a bar to examining on it.....straight to AUM:E

[Hughes500]

The only thing stirring the stick will do is to "effectively reduce the apparent total rotor thrust ". So the helicopter will descend from a perfect hover if you stir it. However you will need to stir more and more as you approach the ground due to increased ground cushion effect.

[SASless]

Crab.....I did not say difficult.....I said IMPOSSIBLE!
:E