Pierre Clostermann (Merged)

[salzkorn]

Pierre Clostermann performed his last takeoff today, never to return... He was 85.
RIP

[innuendo]

May he RIP, his books had a lot to do with starting my interest in flying and ending up with a lifetime career in a logbook.

[albatross]

RIP Pierre

I hope he has clear skies. Perhaps he will find a Tempest or a Spit and some friends to fly with.

I loved his books.
Photo Credit Gordon Permann Collection
- The Hawker Tempest Page

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/midcanada/Tempest.jpg

[LowNSlow]

A sad loss to the aviation community.

The Big Show is one of my favourite books and it's high time I got a new copy.

[4Greens]

Moi aussi! Adieu.

[Footless Halls]

Truly a great hero.

[DaveW]

Telegraph Obituary here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=&xml=/news/2006/03/25/db2501.xml).

[passpartout]

Today's Daily Telegraph contains the obituary of Pierre Clostermann, French Spitfire & Tempest pilot in World War 2.

Quite a remarkable man, certainly not averse to making controversial remarks. I vaguely remember the controversy he stoked up in 1982 over the Falklands War, but he should be remembered for his flying record.

RIP.

[hobie]

There are so many references to Pierre Clostermann on the web it's worth doing a Google ..... simply enter Pierre Clostermann and you will find much about a very special Aviator ....

r.i.p.

[Wiley]

In my youth, I knew a fellow who had been on Closterman's squadron in France and Germany towards the end of the war. He flew as Closterman's wingman (apparently a very unpopular and unhealthy job) and did not have a good word to say about the man - in fact, he had quite a few words to say about him, all of which would invite cries of outrage from the 'don't speak ill of the dead' brigade.

[Jackonicko]

Clostermann's own book is pretty illuminating, even without the testimony of those who flew with him.

Yet in his later years he could be charming and modest - to a fault.

I suspect that history will view him as a very flawed genius, whose own arrogance and over-inflated claims can't dent the fact that while he didn't win the war single-handed, as he seemed to think, he did play an important part in one part of it.

I don't know whether his anti-English prejudices will allow people here to view him dispassionately.

[passpartout]

Yes, I've read his book, and heard the bad press that he was subject to. It's difficult to know what to think, after all, both Bader and Gibson were not popular with everyone. Clostermann seemed to manage to annoy those who flew with him, whereas Bader at least seemed to have the loyalty of those on his Sqn / Wing, if not elsewhere.

Still, it was a remarkable story for the Frenchman, and I think that I will at least do him the honour of reading The Big Show once more.

[Dave Roome]

My instructor as I went through Valley in 1966 (Mac MacKenzie) had been Pierre Clostermann's No2; he had not one single kind word to say about the man. Apparently he was well known for getting airborne, losing his No2 in cloud and returning to claim all sorts of derring-do with many kills. One day, Mac told me that he returned from a sortie when he had 'lost his leader' to hear Clostermann declaiming his successes to the Int Officer, when one of Clostermann's groundcrew arrived to point out that the canvas patches were still in place over the gun muzzles (he hadn't fired a shot). There were many other stories Mac told me about this French hero.......

[nutcracker43]

Clostermann

I have heard many stories about PC, some good and some bad. I have heard many stories about the Poles and their 'behaviour', yet were their squadrons not the 'highest scorers' in the BOB? Those I met were wonderful fellows and great characters. One wonders whether this was not some petty jealousy on the part of certain members of the RAF. I grew up thinking that Douglas Bader was a tremendous hero; he was. He, along with Leanord Cheshire, was a source of inspiration, in my yearing as a young fellow, to join the RAF. My civilian flying instructor knew him (DB) well and was not overly fond of him; I imagined an element of petty jealousy with regard to his observations. I do not wish to be iconoclastic here but I was very disappointed when I met the man at a dinner talk he gave us in the mess at Syerston in July 66. He was the supreme egoist...'me' deep in conversation. Regrettably my flying instructor's views were all revealed as being true...prior to that it had just been a story...what we are hearing here on this thread are stories told to 'someone' by 'someone'. To my mind they are neither sound nor worthy and serve to diminish the memory of someone who contributed significantly to the air battle of WW2.

Thank you.

NC43

[Baron rouge]

First duty of a good leader is allways to take care of his wingman, apparently this was not Closterman's way of doing things, but rather use them as a bait to have easy kills. He lost a lot of number 2's.

[GeeRam]

First duty of a good leader is allways to take care of his wingman, apparently this was not Closterman's way of doing things, but rather use them as a bait to have easy kills. He lost a lot of number 2's.

A good few of the high scoring Luftwaffe Experten were proudest of the fact they never lost a wingman rather than the high scores they racked up in many hundreds of missions.

[Jackonicko]

NC43,

So it's OK to talk about Bader's failings (which I would not dispute for one moment), but not Clostermann's?

While Bader may have been unbearably arrogant and egotistical, and while he may have inflated claims for his Wing (at least), he looked after his blokes and inspired enormous dedication and loyalty.

And there's a difference between exaggeration and outright lies, surely?

Moreover, while it's always been possible to find people who didn't like Bader, most of those who flew with him lionised him, or at least respected and admired him, whereas it's always been much harder to find anyone who knew Pierre who had a good word to say for him. Clostermann's colleagues seem to have viewed him as a complete tosser, and there are huge question marks over his claims.

That said, there's no doubting Clostermann's fighting spirit, and there's no doubt that he was an invaluable role model for other young Free Frenchmen who wanted to hit back against the Nazis. It's also perhaps unfair to judge a man's character based on youthful exaggeration and egotistical posturing when he was an immature twenty-something.

Perhaps all great men have great flaws as well as great strengths, and perhaps only by acknowledging both can we pay a meaningful tribute? Perhaps burying the negative points in the interests of 'not speaking ill' serves only to turn remembrance into meaningless and fundamnentally dishonest sentimentality.

[passpartout]

Perhaps Clostermann was so famous because the French needed heroes; much as Britain did after Dunkirk. Whether he made dubious claims or not, I'm sure that he was used as an inspiration for the French, both during and after the War.

Bader may or may not be a good comparison, he inspired immense loyalty amongst his flying comrades - but was not so popular with others.

Gibson, on the other hand, seems to have been insufferable, from what I have read and heard from Bomber Command veterans, and it pains me to write that, him being one of my childhood inspirations.

Who knows where the truth lies - these men did all fight for their countries, were all undoubtedbly brave, but how many others performed equal feats and were never recognised?

May Clostermann and all those who fought for our freedom rest in peace.

[Footless Halls]

All these guys were human, just like us. But unlike most of us (I speak for myself) they were also heroes. As Bomber Harris said, taking their place in the Drinking Hall of Valhallah with the greatest warriors of the past. The nameless Viking who took on the entire English army at Stamford Bridge in 1066, for example.
They had the same failings as ordinary folk, but they found themselves in situations where they could show some phenomenal characteristics and they did. How many people, in Gibson's position, would have done what he did to earn his VC?
I actually prefer to hear of their human weaknesses, even if they were pretty unpleasant people in some ways, because I prefer my Heroes to be flawed humans, like Achilles, and not Gods.
And one other thing: Clostermann could write! Just remembering his description of his escape from the FW190's over the Channel in a 'clipped, cropped and clapped' Spit V, or his high-altitude kill over Scapa makes my palms sweat.
RIP a brave, if all too human, hero.

[GeeRam]

And one other thing: Clostermann could write! Just remembering his description of his escape from the FW190's over the Channel in a 'clipped, cropped and clapped' Spit V, or his high-altitude kill over Scapa makes my palms sweat.


Scapa....as in Scapa Flow?

That'll be one of the many 'fictitious' or unconfirmed kills of his then.....:rolleyes:

[Footless Halls]

Yes, that's the Scapa to which I refer. I couldn't remember whether it was 'Flow' or 'Floe'.

Well you may be right, it could be made up. I'm sure a spotter could check whether what he wrote in that case was real or not.

The book is clearly very 'episodic', and not in any sense an autobiography. And maybe it was made up, but my point was simply that in addition to his Wartime service, whatever that actually was, he was a phenomenally powerful writer.

Of course, we're all anonymous here, but I've had no connection with Clostermann at all.

[4Greens]

My hero had always been Cheshire. I had the pleasure to meet him a few years ago and he was modest, charming, the lot. Still the greatest!

[PPRuNe Pop]

It is Scapa Floe.

I had several heroes at the time of the BoB. New ones were made every day on the radio and in the newspapers. Bader, Tuck, Mouchotte, Malan, Charles then Gibson, Cheshire, Tait...on and on the list goes. Later in life my views changed slightly when I realised that there many unsung heroes who had performed magnificent acts of bravery and some of those I had worshipped were after all flawed. Closterman was one Bader was another and very recently I read in Max Hastings' book, Warriors, that Gibson was worse than most. Bader always claimed he was involved in a mid-air. The RAF think differently and have him recorded as being shot down. Digging in the records it appears that this was indeed the case and perhaps a case of vanity.

Heroes nonetheless but they cannot be all things to all men can they?

[LXXIV]

'While Bader may have been unbearably arrogant and egotistical, and while he may have inflated claims for his Wing (at least), he looked after his blokes and inspired enormous dedication and loyalty'.
Knew a few people over the years who were not enamoured with DB, and came across this recently in 'The Colditz Myth', by S P Mackenzie, published by OUP 2004:
'When I first got to Colditz', remembered Alec Ross, 'I thought that this is going to be a good place', noting that everyone was on first-name terms. He was less happy when the legless Douglas Bader, to whom he was assigned as personal batman, blocked his repatriation as a member of the RAMC in 1943. 'Hauptmann Pupke came into the courtyard and he called me down. "Good news, Ross," he says. "You're going home." Douglas Bader happened to be there, and he said, "No he's bloody not. He came here as my lackey and he'll stay as my lackey" ' As a result, 'I had to stay another two bloody years when I could have gone home with the rest of my mates'. By January 1943, after eighteen months in the camp, the new orderlies were requesting through the Protecting Power that they be relieved and sent elsewhere.
LXXIV

[Tourist]

Pprune Pup,
No it is Scapa Flow.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Tourist,

You can take it up with the RN they seem to think its Floe and some birdwatchers too. There are some who think its Flow just Google either as an example.

Btw, Pop is not Pup, but then again....................................who cares! :p

[HTB]

I've just looked in two quite different road atlases and for what it's worth they both spell that great anchorage as "Flow".:p

[Another St Ivian]

http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/7389/scapa2ti.jpg

[Footless Halls]

makes me realise that referring to that neck of the woods as 'Scapa' was relatively astute.

[Tourist]

Orcadians call it "Scapa Flow", I'll go with them.

[Gainesy]

The nameless Viking who took on the entire English army at Stamford Bridge in 1066

That'd be Erik The Dim.

[Red Line Entry]

Bit along the lines of the big French bloke who tried to stop the Guards closing the gate at Hougoumont at the battle of Waterloo.

Any other of our enemies who have been inspirational in their combat against us?

[Cutoff]

I enjoyed 'the Big show', I appreciated that there may have been some poetic licence applied to it, but even so a good read.

But one thing to add to pot when considering an airmans behaviour when in the heat of battle. How a Pilot behaves when he is a national of an invaded country, most probably aware of atrocities inflicted on people and family by countryman of aircraft he is about to face in battle. So when one appears (an ME or FW) he goes all out to avenge these atrocities, without any care for himself let alone his wingman - not that this justifies leaving a wingman - but it might explain it.

There are examples of the Poles putting the rule book to one side to get at the Germans and I am sure that the Free French also felt that they should do all things possible, whether they be right or not, to get their country back.