RAF Flying Clubs

[fantaman]

Hello All,

I'm thinking about doing my PPL but have heard that doing it via one of the RAF's flying club saves you quite a bit of money? Does anyone know how much it costs or has anyone done their PPL through one of the RAF Flying Clubs and can give me some advice?

Leuchars is my closest station with a club so its probably going to be there!

Ciao!

[Professor Plum]

Leuchars is my closest station with a club so its probably going to be there!

Your profile says you are from London. I'd suggest that Leuchars isnt the closest RAF flying club!

[airborne_artist]

You'll need to be serving in RN, Army or RAF, or the reserves, or ex one of these, probably. Benson also allows VR(T) and ATC adult staff to join, but if you are pure civvy, you'd need a civilian FI rating I expect.

[Jerry Can]

Here's a link to the RAF flying clubs association website

http://www.procommercesolutions.co.uk/raffca/homepage/

I did most of my PPL at RAF Kinloss and it was excellent and much cheaper than a civvy equivalent club. Its currently £81.50 per hour for a Cessna 152 lesson. Just to give you an idea.

[fantaman]

I work down in London but I have lots of time off with work, normally working about 14 days out of a 31 day month! I go home on my time off which is ony 30 minutes from Leuchars hence why thats closest and I dont really fancy trying to fly in the airspace around London, would you?

I'm a Corporal, full time in the RAF.

[fantaman]

Cheers for the link Jerry Can, I was looking for a site like that! :ok:

[Professor Plum]

fantaman,

Sorry, but couldn't resist it!!

I dont know much about the flying clubs up north, but down south, theres the pathfinder flying club at Wyton, the local airspace is relatively uncongested, and as Airborne_Artist said, theres the one at Benson.

It's all a lot cheaper than civvy rates too.

[airborne_artist]

Don't be too frightened of learning in busier airspace - it makes for a steeper learning curve, but it's not as hard as it looks.

[fantaman]

Jerry Can,

How much did it cost you to do your PPL? How many lessons did you take each month?

[tmmorris]

fantaman, if you want a contact at Benson PM me (I'm a member there).

Tim

[BEagle]

What a lucky chap you are to have to work only 14 days out of 31!

Have a look in the DCIs and see whether you might qualify for a Service scholarship?

We've been training people to fly the PA28 at Brize for over 25 years now:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Club4small.jpg

You can also find our rates on the RAFFCA website. A lot cheaper than you'll find at any non-RAFFCA club!

[fantaman]

Thanks Beagle! Pardon my ignorance but what is DCI's and what do I need to qualify for a scholarship?

[B Fraser]

[QUOTE=fantaman]I dont really fancy trying to fly in the airspace around London, would you? [QUOTE]

I wouldn't fancy learning to fly in the middle of nowhere and then one day find myself in a situation where there are three simultaneous circuit patterns in force and I'm number 5 in my circuit. :)

Many moons ago, I learned to drive in one of the most congested areas of the South-East. To my horror, I needed to drive around the dreaded South Circular the day after I passed my test. Thank goodness I hadn't learned in Caithness :ok:

I hope you don't mind me venturing into your territory, I'll slope off back to a civvy forum where I belong.

[airborne_artist]

DCI's - Defence Council Instructions - used to be a white A5 pamphlet, probably gone on the intranet by now? Unclassified information on everything from electoral registration to .....

[rolandpull]

Damn! I thought this was thread about 10 Sqn.:{

[Jerry Can]

Fantaman

It cost me about £4500 in total for my PPL training and exams. It took 60 ish hours but this of course depends on your ability and whether you can afford to do it all at once or have to spread it out over an extended period which may take longer as you are having to refresh each time you fly. I am still waiting for decent weather to do my skills test. I've been waiting for over 2 months :ugh:

[Professor Plum]

Slightly off topic, but on the subject of scholarships, you could also try the Air league:

http://www.airleague.co.uk/scholarships.html

They offer 12-15 hour scholarships towards NPPL's.

Primarily designed for those who want to fly for a living (not sure if thats your intention) but may be worth a look.

I was awarded one years ago, and it saved a hell of a lot of cash!!

[A Sayers]

Dear Fantaman. See pm

[The Swinging Monkey]

Fantaman,

You say you are a 'full time Cpl' and you don't know what DCIs are?? are yoou for real or what??
I just cant believe you, even the lowliest LAC knows what DCIs are!!! How did you ever get to CPL not knowing that?? I despair
TSM

[fantaman]

Fantaman,

You say you are a 'full time Cpl' and you don't know what DCIs are?? are yoou for real or what??
I just cant believe you, even the lowliest LAC knows what DCIs are!!! How did you ever get to CPL not knowing that?? I despair
TSM

Like I said, please excuse my ignorance! Things are obviously bad when your at the point of despair over who knows and who doesnt know what DCI's are. As for the how did I get to Cpl not knowing that, hard work and graft!I was after some advice, not a lecture on publications and doc's! Dry your eyes :{

[Mr C Hinecap]

TSM

I doubt that DCIs have ever pervaded the lower ranks of the Armed Forces. This is even worse with their electronic publication and poor use of the electronic medium. Having been a flight cdr and currently involved with TMT1 & TMT2 training, most of those coming through at TMT1 will not have seen DCIs in years if we're lucky. Being good at your Trade is a precursor to promotion to Cpl - not knowing other 'stuff'. That comes later.

[ChezTanker]

I work down in London but I have lots of time off with work, normally working about 14 days out of a 31 day month!
I'm a Corporal, full time in the RAF.

I dream of getting 8 days off a month but I am on an operational Sqn. Obviously over-stretch does not apply everywhere - roll on tranche 3.:(

Astonished Ex-Cpl

[fantaman]

I dream of getting 8 days off a month but I am on an operational Sqn. Obviously over-stretch does not apply everywhere - roll on tranche 3.:(

I normally work a 12 hour day for seven days with no days off in between, that means I work 84 hours a week, more than double the normal working time directive.

Overstretch is everywhere mate, even down here, trust me!

[hobie]

I read it as working the equivalent of 4 on 4 off .....

long days but the best shift you could ever work IMHO ..... :)

[fantaman]

Yeah its just the same as 4 on 4 off! It always drags in but the following week spending 7 days at home chilling, awesome!

[trilander]

You may also wish to try gliders, much cheaper and more fun, the RAFGSA have about 12 clubs in the UK, try the RAFGSA Centre at Bicester, the old raf station where the crash & smash unit used to be. or apply for an adventure training course there unless all fun is now cancelled.

[Kengineer-130]

Bicster is no longer the main place for gliding courses, its now a tri-service course at RAF Halton, I went last year and can highly reccomend going, there are not many places where you get aerotowed to 2000' monday to friday, fly about 10-15hrs and pay a whole £4 for the course :ok:
As regards the PPL, cheapest ooption is go to the states and do a JAA PPL, I did mine last year and the whole course cost me less than 3k ,and I came back with a JAA PPL, night rating and 73.8 hrs in my longbook, and including flights, food and lots of nights out in daytona and everything else I spent well under 6K ;) :ok:
But for cheap hire hours you can't beat the RAF flying clubs :)

[airborne_artist]

As regards the PPL, cheapest ooption is go to the states and do a JAA PPL, I did mine last year and the whole course cost me less than 3k ,and I came back with a JAA PPL, night rating and 73.8 hrs in my longbook, and including flights, food and lots of nights out in daytona and everything else I spent well under 6K

Just don't tell BEagle - he's not keen on people who get their training in the US!

[Krystal n chips]

TSM
I doubt that DCIs have ever pervaded the lower ranks of the Armed Forces. .

Erm sorry but I would politely dispute that observation and go with the one made by TSM. Even in my day as an apprentice we were taught about service docs--didn't mean you got to see them--just aware of what they were etc--although copies of DCI's were always available if you simply asked to see one once you were on a unit as I recall. Times change of course. :hmm:

Anyway, back to the original post and the suggestion that the poster joins a RAFGSA Club. Best thing he could do in many respects as the experience gained learning to fly a glider will prove invaluable later if and when he converts to power flying--and the GSA training is first class by the way. Enjoy.! :ok:

[BEagle]

"Quote:
As regards the PPL, cheapest ooption is go to the states and do a JAA PPL, I did mine last year and the whole course cost me less than 3k ,and I came back with a JAA PPL, night rating and 73.8 hrs in my longbook, and including flights, food and lots of nights out in daytona and everything else I spent well under 6K


Just don't tell BEagle - he's not keen on people who get their training in the US!"

Alone amongst the JAA states, the UK CAA is the only one which has been content to 'approve' JAR-FCL training in a non-JAA state. The fact that this has had a hugely detrimental effect on the UK PPL training industry (which cannot compete with US prices due to the UK's massive fuel tax burden) appears to be something about which the Belgrano Ba$tards have no concern...

We've even had people try to take the exams for free here at the Covert Oxonian Aerodrome, beofre scuttling off to some US PPL farm to do their trianing. Not any more though - nowadays they'll have to join the Club and, if they don't do their flight training with us, then they'll have to pay the same rate as the CAA charges for exams. And no free assistance from our instructors either.

Of those who have come back from the infamous 3 week US PPL training courses, most have been very weak indeed. They have needed quite a few hours before we've been content to let them fly our aircraft solo in UK airspace.

So yes, our RAFFCA clubs offer the best UK value for money training. But they can't compete with US JAR-FCL training at the moment on financial grounds.

However, whereas the JAA has little legal power, EASA will have considerably more. What they say will be EU law. So I wouldn't be at all surprised if the farce of non-EASA based EASA PPL training is killed off in a few years time. And quite rightly so too!

[Lima Juliet]

Nearest RAF Flying Club to London? Must be RAF Halton, with no heavy aircraft or helos baulking the circuit, loads of aircraft (C152s/PA28/C182/Chipmunk), full time QFI (who is a top bloke) and they are registered for Enhanced Learning Credits (ELCs) so your PPL may only cost a grand :eek: !

Give them a call..

LJ

[A and C]

The problem with the three week PPL course in the USA is one of retaining what has been taught, North American flight training has a lot of critics on this side of the atlantic but the safety data is more or less in line with europe.

In my opinion a lot of the critical comment about the training in the USA has more to do with trying to keep the student flying in the UK or a "snob" attitude to anything that the Americans do that seems to be common in the UK.

If you choose to train in the USA the most important thing to do is to get back into an aircraft as soon as you can when you get back to the UK otherwise you will not retain a lot of what has been taught, most people come back from the USA after the PPL and take three or four weeks to get there life sorted out before flying and I think that this lack of flying continuaty is critical to a person who has been on a three week brain crammer course.

The only student at the club that I am a member of that went to the USA had a very rough time with the American training set up unable to provide the course when he arrived on the doorstep, I am sure that this is not typical but it is a factor to be considered along with ALL the costs of going to the USA.

In the long run I don't think that very much money can be saved by going to the USA if you are in the forces and can join one of the RAF clubs but it is another matter if you are a civillian as the price of flying is twice that of the RAF club in my area ( RAF Benson Cessna 152 £61/hour, local civilian club £119/hour)

[A Sayers]

I have to disagree with A&C that:

The problem with the three week PPL course in the USA is one of retaining what has been taught...

In my experience the training in the states is excellent for training a pilot to fly in the states. It does not mean that the airmanship/judgement skills learnt abroad teach a pilot to the same level as a UK trained pilot. The opposit also aplies of course to UK pilots flying in the states, that is to say a UK pilot lacks some of the skills/knowledge about flying in the states that an American trained pilot would have. In most of the popular training areas the weather is usualy either very good or very bad, and often little of the latter. This is one of two huge advantages the USA gives a student pilot. The other is as described by Beagle, the absence of a punitive tax regime. An American trained pilot typically returns without having had the experience of turning up when the weather is bad (extra ground school at good clubs) or in having to watch , and later make the decision as to the suitability of todays met....its ok now, but will it be ok for the return leg?

This lack of judgement/experience can cause some serious problems given that Europes climate is very different from that of Florida, Texas or California etc. I know of many cases of private aircraft setting out in unsuitable conditions, sometimes with fatal results. About fifteen years ago I saw the ops guy at Dundee climb into an aircraft that had just been returned from a trip to the western isles by a US trained pilot. It ran out of fuel before it could reach the bowser. When questioned the pilot responsible said that he had assumed fuel would be available at his destination, it always had been in America. The flight authoriser had discussed the absence of fuel with him and had informed him of the two islands where it was then available. Of the sixteen incidents/accidents I have had the misfortune to be a witness to/be on the same airfield, 14 occured to pilots trained in America. I do not wish to usurp the role of the AAIB, but most of these incidents would not have occured in Florida, hence the US excellent safety record refered to by A&C in the earlier post. Take a well trained pilot out of the environment in which he is familiar, place him in strange surroundings, different weather, procedures and RT..... it is not surprising that they sometimes struggle to perform as well as in more familiar situations.

[A and C]

I was looking at the situation from the students point of veiw as the question as the thread was started by someone looking at starting training for a PPL.

The post above by A Sayers raises a lot of good points most of them can be delt with effectivly with good supervision of new PPL holders, I'm sure that most RAF clubs have a system to check that the flights made by new pilots have some degree of supervision in the planning stage.

I would expect a new PPL holder who has just returned from the USA to need some extra training but I have found that the amount of training requied increases if the new PPL holder has a a "lay off" of more than a week or so as the flying skills seem to not be retained, if the student can fly the aircraft adjusting to the new airspace and navigation enviroment Europe seems to be much less of a problem.

[rjtjrt]

DCI= Defence Council Instructions

[neilmac]

I can recommend RAF Bensons Flying Club. It is roughly 45 mins(from Northolt area), top friendly people running the club. Their website is www.rafbfc.co.uk. U may want to look at scholarships as well, they did have a couple available for junior ranks but I dont know if it only applied to Benson based ranks, contact numbers on the website.

Neil Mac