Regulations regarding fuelling while passengers onboard

[Mike773]

On Thursday there was a wildcat strike by fuellers at SYD in the afternoon. Having just finished my Flight Ops duties in SYD I went to catch NZ118 back to AKL, (I don't work for NZ by the way...) and found several other operators (UA, TG etc.) were announcing boarding delays. However NZ did no such thing and we were boarded on time at around 1600 for a 1630 departure. We were only told of the fueling delay once on board the aircraft. We didn't block out until around 1800. So we spent 1.5 hours sitting on our bottoms listening to the horrible boarding music and PAs every 10 minutes or so saying it's not "our fault" etc. But why the hell did they board us when they knew there was a delay? It only takes 20 minutes or so to fuel an A320, so they could have easily kept us in the gate lounge. An extra 90 minutes in that horrible aircraft is not fun!

ANYWAY..... The real reason for my post is to ask if there are any regulations in AU or NZ regarding refueling with passengers on board. The airline I work for does not allow refueling with passengers on board unless certain precautions are taken, such as: Fueling is monitored by chief maintenance officer (in charge of the T-check), fire extingushing equipment is at hand, and cabin crew man each door with door in manual mode.

Now I'm wondering if this is a rule specific to my carrier, or maybe to the home civil aviation authorities? Any such regs downunder?

Cheers in advance. :ok:

[Richo]

Hi Mike

Refueling with pax on board is allowed in Aust. under the CAO's. I don't know the exact one, but if you look up the CASA (www.casa.gov.au) website under regulations/CAO, it is quite clear which one it is.
It describes the safety precautions before so dooing. No where near as demanding as your company? sops.

The only approved method is pressure (underwing or closed) refueling, with AVTUR/JET A.

My feeling is that CASA considers pressure refueling very safe, as the fuel never sees the light of day and there is very little risk of a stray spark or ignition source.

Overwing or bowzer style refueling with pax on board is only permitted in very rare circumstances, such as Aero-medical where the patient can not be moved. Even then the approval process is quite stringent and I am only aware of AVTUR only approval anyway.
I suspect you will not find any Aust. airlines that have an overwing (with pax on board) approval.


Richo

[rotaryman]

As a Pilot and Airfield Operations Officer at Syd! i can state that Sydney Airport only allows refueling with Pax aboard if as previously stated.

1) There are cabin crew manning the Exits on Board.

2) The airport Firies are in attendance.

3) Ground Engineer in attendance

If its a 747 2 tenders must be in attendance....

[woftam]

rotaryman,
Oh really !!!!!! ;)
New to me.

[rotaryman]

Try reading the SACL Airport Operations Manual! :}

[woftam]

Are you talking about angry palm trees (helicopters).
:D

[rotaryman]

:D of course not!! PMSL:)

i am talking about Planks dude!!

[woftam]

rotaryman,
A bit of light reading in CAO 20.9 Para 4.2 for you. :)

[rotaryman]

Yes woftam:

I am fully aware of the CAO's with regard to 20.9 etc.I am also refering to The Airports Operations Manual..They are in addition to the CAO's etc :} ask any Airport Firie,,

Cheers....

[rotaryman]

CAO's

The operator of an aircraft with a maximum seating capacity of 20 or more
must ensure that fuel is not loaded on to the aircraft while passengers are on
board, or entering or leaving, the aircraft, unless the following conditions are
satisfied:
(a) before the fuel is loaded, all persons who may be on board, or entering or
leaving, the aircraft while the fuel is loaded are told that:
(i) fuel is to be loaded; and
(ii) their seat-belts must not be fastened while the fuel is loaded; and
(iii) they must not smoke, use any electrical equipment or do anything
else that might cause fuel vapours to ignite during the loading;
(b) all persons on board, or entering or leaving, the aircraft obey the
instructions given under sub-subparagraphs (a) (ii) and (iii);
(c) a cabin attendant is appointed to perform the following tasks while the
fuel is loaded:
(i) ensure the safety of the passengers;
(ii) maintain discipline inside the aircraft;
(iii) supervise any necessary evacuation of the aircraft;
(d) while the fuel is loaded:
(i) the aircraft’s “fasten seat belt” signs are turned off; and
(ii) the aircraft’s “no smoking” signs are turned on; and
(iii) the aircraft’s emergency lights (if any) are armed;
(e) while the fuel is loaded, there is at least 1 cabin attendant on duty in the
aircraft:
(i) for every 72 passengers on board the aircraft; or
(ii) for every passenger zone in the aircraft in which there are
passengers;
whichever is more;
while the fuel is loaded, there is at least 1 cabin attendant on duty by at
least 1 exit door of each of the aircraft’s passenger zones in which there
are passengers;
(g) all cabin attendants who are on duty in the aircraft while the fuel is loaded:
(i) are prepared for an immediate evacuation; and
(ii) supervise the passengers during the loading; and
(iii) ensure that the aisles and exits are unobstructed during the loading;
(h) the areas outside the aircraft that would be used if the aircraft were
evacuated are kept clear while the fuel is loaded;
(i) the fuel is loaded using a system which gets the fuel from its container
into the aircraft’s fuel tank without exposing it to the air;
(k) if the aircraft’s engine is running — a member of the aircraft’s flight crew
is on duty on its flight deck;
(l) the operator’s operations manual sets out:
(i) the responsibilities of members of the operating crew who are on
duty in the aircraft while fuel is loaded; and
4.3.1 All engines in the aircraft, including any auxiliary power units, shall be
stopped with their ignition switches in the ‘OFF’ position, except where CASA
is satisfied that the operation of such an engine or auxiliary power unit will not
present a hazard and where a statement to that effect, together with any special
conditions for operation, is included in the aircraft Operations Manual.
At least 2 fire extinguishers of approved type and capacity must be positioned:
(a) within 15 metres, but not less than 6 metres, from the aircraft and the
fuelling equipment; or
(b) carried on the fuelling equipment.

Sydney Airport Requires the Airport Firies to be in attendance!
Found in the M.O.S = Manual of Standrads for Sydney Airport..
And the Sydney Airport Operations Manual..

Cheers...:8

[woftam]

rotaryman,
I'll have to take your word for what is written in the "Sydney Airport manuals" (which are not readily available to us at the coalface!).
As you would be aware the only documents relating to this subject that are readily available to the PIC are the CAO's and the A/C FCOM, FAM etc.
NONE of which state a requirement for the Airport Firies to be in attendance during refuelling with pax on board.
If the Sydney Airport people have a different idea to everyone else then it might pay them to tell someone (and place an order for around 30 more fire trucks !!!!)

[Sunfish]

(a) (ii) is interesting. I've never had anyone tell me not to fasten my seatbelt during refueling

[Capt Fathom]

(a) (ii) is interesting. I've never had anyone tell me not to fasten my seatbelt during refueling
Maybe because refuelling was not taking place ;)
Was the 'Fasten Seat Belt' Sign ON or OFF ?

[king oath]

THe seatbelt sign is left OFF until refuelling is complete.

[Mike773]

Thanks all!

Apart from the obvious customer service issues, it looks like NZ might have something to answer to. The setabelt sign was definitely on the whole time.

[Capt Fathom]

Mike773,

The posts above may not necessarily reflect the NZ rules, so I doubt NZ have anything to answer for. Captains are not in the habit of breaking rules, it may cost them their job and/or licence!

There are numerous reasons for boarding the aircraft early. One is to minimise further delays. Eg. The crew may be running 'out of hours' for the return sector. You can imagine the stampede from the terminal once everyone got their fuel!

[Mike773]

Hi Capt Fathom

In my experience, rules don't mean much to NZ... :eek: :}

In regard to the delay and duty hours problem though, they could have begun boarding the aricraft as soon as they had fuellers on the way. It doesn't take that long to board an A320 and could be accomplished while the fuelling was being done (if that is allowed). Both take 15-20 mins.

You were right about the rush to the runway though. We were about 5th in sequence for 16R even though we were going from G instead of A1. Frustrating as hell to look out the left-hand side and see us waiting for a puddle-jumper to make its slow way in. God knows why they held up 4 747s (2xUA, 1xTG, 1xBA), a 767 (QF), and an A320 (NZ) for a little commuter plane when they could have brought it in on 16L and got all the heavies away quickly. :{

Mike

[Speeds high]

Everytime (in my limited experiance) i have delayed boarding for any reason, someone has always gone missing further delaying the flight; and further pissing everyone off. Ya damed if ya do, ya damed if ya don't.

[rmcdonal]

I dont think you can fuel while loading or unloading Pax. Their either on, or off.

[hoss]

I think you can :ok: .:ok:

As always totally stand to be corrected :) .

[Dehavillanddriver]

Well someone needs to tell QANTAS and Virgin because both carriers refuel whilst boarding and disembarking passengers - all without fire engines in attendance.

[planemad2]

(a) (ii) is interesting. I've never had anyone tell me not to fasten my seatbelt during refueling

Sadly I have had it the other way round.

Quite a few years ago now on AN Airline, they boarded an A320 while refuelling, the seat belt light was on, and the flight attendants were preparing the cabin for departure. One flight attendant asked me to fasten my seat belt, and I politely pointed out that this was illegal, and I declined. I offered to stand in the aerobridge until refuelling was completed, but she said we will see about this, and stormed off to the cockpit to tell the Captain.

Next minute the seat belt light went off, and the Captain made a PA for all pax NOT to fasten their seat belts.

And NO I did not get an apology...........

[Woomera]

Woftam, Hoss and DHD are correct. Refuelling is permitted with PAX on board, subject to limitations.

Firies are NOT required (in the eastern states at least).

Woomera (Eastern States)

[planemad2]

Woftam, Hoss and DHD are correct. Refuelling is permitted with PAX on board, subject to limitations.
Firies are NOT required (in the eastern states at least).
Woomera (Eastern States)

The regulations have obviously changed over the years.

They definitely used to say (something like) a fire tender must be in attendance IF the number of people on board would hinder a safe evacuation in the event of an emergency.

On the assumption that would include a full Aircraft, we often had the case (30-40 years ago) where a B727 full of pax would come in just for extra fuel, and IF they left the pax on, a fire tender was always called.

Seems like it is not mandatory now.

[woftam]

Maybe SACL haven't done their amendments for a while rotaryman?
:}

[rmcdonal]

Found it:
CAO Part 20
Section 20.9
The operator of an aircraft with a maximum seating capacity of 20 or more
must ensure that fuel is not loaded on to the aircraft while passengers are on
board, or entering or leaving, the aircraft, unless the following conditions are
satisfied:
(a) before the fuel is loaded, all persons who may be on board, or entering or
leaving, the aircraft while the fuel is loaded are told that:
(i) fuel is to be loaded; and
(ii) their seat-belts must not be fastened while the fuel is loaded; and
(iii) they must not smoke, use any electrical equipment or do anything
else that might cause fuel vapours to ignite during the loading;
(b) all persons on board, or entering or leaving, the aircraft obey the
instructions given under sub-subparagraphs (a) (ii) and (iii);
(c) a cabin attendant is appointed to perform the following tasks while the
fuel is loaded:
(i) ensure the safety of the passengers;
(ii) maintain discipline inside the aircraft;
(iii) supervise any necessary evacuation of the aircraft;
(d) while the fuel is loaded:
(i) the aircraft’s “fasten seat belt” signs are turned off; and
(ii) the aircraft’s “no smoking” signs are turned on; and
(iii) the aircraft’s emergency lights (if any) are armed;
(e) while the fuel is loaded, there is at least 1 cabin attendant on duty in the
aircraft:
(i) for every 72 passengers on board the aircraft; or
(ii) for every passenger zone in the aircraft in which there are
passengers;
whichever is more;
SECTION 20.9 -4-
Issue 7
Issue 7: 8 December 2004
Amdt No. 213
(f) while the fuel is loaded, there is at least 1 cabin attendant on duty by at
least 1 exit door of each of the aircraft’s passenger zones in which there
are passengers;
(g) all cabin attendants who are on duty in the aircraft while the fuel is loaded:
(i) are prepared for an immediate evacuation; and
(ii) supervise the passengers during the loading; and
(iii) ensure that the aisles and exits are unobstructed during the loading;
(h) the areas outside the aircraft that would be used if the aircraft were
evacuated are kept clear while the fuel is loaded;
(i) the fuel is loaded using a system which gets the fuel from its container
into the aircraft’s fuel tank without exposing it to the air;
(k) if the aircraft’s engine is running — a member of the aircraft’s flight crew
is on duty on its flight deck;
(l) the operator’s operations manual sets out:
(i) the responsibilities of members of the operating crew who are on
duty in the aircraft while fuel is loaded; and
(ii) procedures for complying with the requirements of this paragraph.
Yep I was wrong. You can re-fuel while loading and un-loading. Maybe I was confusing it with a company policy (Thats the excuse im going to use :} )

[pakeha-boy]

now that that has been resolved....

....40.2 on the petrol....no jumps..... no 4th....ready when you are

[Cloud Cutter]

How long does it take to un-fasten a seatbelt? But yes, of course, that is the legal requirement. I sometimes think they pluck these things out of the air. When was the last re-fueling fire anyone has heard of?

[Sunfish]

Cloudcutter, way back years ago at Esso, I took a course in risk management and then applied it to our terminal. The outcome.........one refuelling fire in twenty years is still too much.

That little truck with the piping, hoses and gizmos on it connects to a fuel manifold under the tarmac that is pressurised to about 50 Psi or suchlike (I forget the actual figure).

The fuel goes through a dry break coupling into a filter coalescer that removes the last traces of water and dirt, then through a meter and then into the hose to the refuelling panel where it is distributed to the fuel tanks at the rate of over 1000 litres per minute.

Would you like to picture the jet fuel fountain and resulting fire if something lets go? Fortunately there are emergency stop buttons everywhere.

[Mike773]

My airline's Ops Manual is pretty similar to the CAO posted above. You can do it as long as you follow procedures.

NZ did nothing. No PA, seat-belt sign on, CA's not in position.

Not surprising....

[ozangel]

The airline i worked at, we regularly refuelled during boarding, and on turnarounds where pax remained on board.

The company was very strict about it, so we always stuck to the rules, 1 fa at the overwings, 1 at the forward exits (no exit down the back). The other one would check then lock the lavs and check pax had them unfastened.

Occasionally there would be a crew change, we were not allowed to leave our exit until the other crew had briefed, done their checks, and were ready to stay at the exits at which point they would come and relieve us.

The seatbelt sign was always off, and crew knew to advise the flight deck if it was on still... The captains in my experience never failed to inform us of refuelling. We also had a pa, and instructed them to leave their seatbelts unfastened, remind themselves of the exits, not use any electronic devices/no smoking, and to follow the crews instructions should an evac become necessary.

In my experience this was done every time.

We regularly paxed on other airlines - have only ever heard an announcement made and crew check the cabin on National Jet (QF link) and an airline in the USA years ago. QF and DJ dont seem to do it?

[Dehavillanddriver]

Virgin do a PA and check the cabin when the aircraft is being refuelled.

[Mike773]

I decided to enquire with the NZ CAA. They pointed me to the relevant New Zealand rule as below. Not sure whether the NZ rule applies if the a/c is in Australia at the time though? Seems NZ could be in the proverbial!

CAR 121.91 http://www.caa.govt.nz/fulltext/rule_pdf/Part_121_Consolidated.pdf

121.91 Refuelling and defuelling operations
(a) Each holder of an air operator certificate shall ensure that no
aeroplane is refuelled or defuelled with Class 3(a) fuel when passengers are embarking, on board, or disembarking the aeroplane, or when one or more propulsion engines are running.
(b) Each person performing an air operation may permit an aeroplane to
be refuelled or defuelled with Class 3(b) fuel when passengers are
embarking, on board, or disembarking the aeroplane, provided the person
ensures that safety and aeroplane evacuation precautions are taken in
accordance with procedures specified in the certificate holder’s exposition.
(c) Each person performing an air operation may permit an aeroplane to
be refuelled or defuelled with Class 3(b) fuel with one or more propulsion
engines running, provided that—
(1) all passengers are disembarked under supervision and clear of
the immediate area prior to fuelling commencing; and
(2) the pilot-in-command is responsible for all aspects of the
fuelling operation.
(d) Each holder of an air operator certificate shall ensure that fuelling
does not take place when any fuel-venting outlet or external fuel hose on the aeroplane or refuelling equipment, is within 15 metres of any third party or the property of a third party, or where undue risk or hazard exists for any third party.

[nike]

Dude, you got half the story.

Ease up with the righteousness until you've heard the rest.

As for New Zealand ignoring rules. Leave it out.

Stick to getting the paperwork ready.

[rotaryman]

nike:

Seems you need to Pull your Head in Mate!!!

Mike is only Quoting the Regs, when you have something constructive to add to the debate, come back and play nicely:ugh:

[nike]

Rotary,

the guy was doing more than quoting regs.

Point is, we don't know the full story, so before you hang the crew, take a moment.

Beyond that, I didn't like his inference to New Zealand Pilots ignoring rules.

Fair cop the last comment was not necessary, but nor was his.

For my part, I apologise.

[Mike773]

Nike

Before you attack me you might want to know what I know. Air NZ pilots and ground staff regularly break rules and get away with it.

I am quite within my rights to raise questions when they blatently break safety regulations. Are you trying suggest that as ops staff I have no right to monitor safety? You're the type who thinks we should wait at the bottom of a cliff with a fleet of ambulances obviously.

I am waiting to hear "the other side of the story" from the CAA. Quite what this other side is, I don't know. I was there and saw NO SAFETY PRECAUTIONS. I also saw the fuelling taking place. What other side is there?

What is it with crew people? They think they are above the law? (See two can play that game!)

Thank you for your contribution though. So helpful....:suspect:

[Cloud Cutter]

(b) Each person performing an air operation may permit an aeroplane to be refuelled or defuelled with Class 3(b) fuel when passengers are
embarking, on board, or disembarking the aeroplane, provided the person
ensures that safety and aeroplane evacuation precautions are taken in
accordance with procedures specified in the certificate holder’s exposition.

This law is pretty vague, Do you have a copy of the Air New Zealand exposition? The main safety precaution in this case (assuming boarding through an airbridge) is that the main cabin door is open throughout the refuel.

[Mike773]

Hi Cloud

I don't have a copy of the NZ exposition unfortunately. I'm leaving that to the CAA. The reg does seem a bit vague though, that's for sure. I know our ops manual is pretty clear, but ops manuals are often more strict than the required regs. I have no idea what NZ's says.

I'll be interested in finding out the CAA's reply. At least then I'll have a ruling to be guided by. :ok:

[mattyj]

As a refueller at AKL (NZAA if you prefer) we are instructed to fuel anytime we have an order as long as the access to the aircraft is available (ie Airbridge, airstairs, A/C stairs etc) so passengers and crew can disembark. The only times we may not are hotloads (ie Main engines running) and when ground crew or aircrew are starting the apu/gpu..that only means we have to stop fuelling until the gpu or apu is running and then resume.

..don't worry but..even though fuel is pumping onboard at up to 3500 Litres per min..all our trucks are equiped with handheld fire extinguishers:ok: :ok:

[Mike773]

Hi Matty

Thanks for that info. Good to have a perspective "from the coal face". I'm sure you've never had to use your fire-extinguisher...and fingers crossed you never have to! :)

[ryanbryan]

(a) (ii) is interesting. I've never had anyone tell me not to fasten my seatbelt during refueling

I have, on a VB flight from BNE to CBR. Seemed ridiculous at the time, but I suppose it makes sense now.

[Capt Claret]

Some years ago when paxing on a 733 with a U/S centre tank, a tech stop was required in Alice for fuel. No PA made, almost all seatbelts done up.

A quiet word with one of the on-duty FA re the requirements when refuelling with pax on board, saw an animated conversation with the CSM, who looked daggers in my general direction (I could of course be paranoid :\ ).

This was followed by an even more animated conversation between CSM and Tech crew, followed by a PA advising that refuelling was taking place and that all pax should unfasten seatbelts.

T'is amasing that 100+ pax can all undo their seatbelts in unison!

The only airline I've noticed that regularly advises pax prior to boarding that refuelling may be taking place and not to operate any electical devices, is jet*. So much for their alleged unprofessional approach, as aluded to in many a PPRuNe topic. :ugh:

[Lasiorhinus]

Last month flying Eastern Airlines (Qantaslink) from Sydney to Canberra, SLF boarded before refuelling, due late arrival of the aircraft. The cabin crew, in addition to a PA advising undo your seatbelts, made a point of walking the aisle and looking at everyone's seatbelts (similar to the pre-takeoff and pre-landing checks) and asked everyone who still had theirs done up, to please undo them, as we are refuelling.

No, it shouldnt take very long to undo a belt anyway, but if theres a sudden explosion out on the wing and the cabin gets very hot and orange very quickly, its one less thing to have to remember to do.
Anyway, how long does it take to do the thing up again once refuelling's finished, after all?