Recent Monarch incident in Gibraltar

[Frank Poncherello]

FYI :uhoh:

Can anyone shed any light on this incident (press making it sound serious as usual!)

British government air safety investigators are probing an incident in which a Monarch flight aborted its landing in Gibraltar and, according to eyewitnesses, flew over the town area.

The Air Accidents Investigation Branch [AAIB], part of the UK’s Department for Transport, confirmed yesterday that it was “conducting enquiries” into the incident, which occurred in bad weather last Friday evening.
The results of the AAIB investigation could potentially have broader implications for property development in Gibraltar.
Although the investigation is still in its early stages, the incident has intensified concerns about high-rise buildings and airline safety.
Monarch flight ZB068, a Boeing 757 aircraft carrying 184 passengers from Luton to Gibraltar, was due to land on the evening of March 17th.
The plane flew on a routine approach path before banking to line up with the airfield.
But as it came close to landing, eyewitnesses said it turned sharply and flew at low altitude over the town area.
In a statement to the Chronicle yesterday, Monarch said the crew had been unable to complete the landing due to poor weather conditions.
“After the crew discontinued their approach into Gibraltar, they received a report from Air Traffic Control that, although remaining within the designated airspace, they had deviated from the normal routing,” the statement said.
“Following standard procedure, this matter has been reported to the UK Civil Aviation Authority and is now the subject of a full investigation by the airline.”
After aborting the landing at Gibraltar, the Monarch flight diverted to Málaga where it touched down at 9.13pm.
Investigators from the AAIB will interview the Monarch crew and talk to witnesses to try and establish the sequence of events.
They will also examine official flight control data, including voice recordings and radar information, to track the plane’s flight path and altitude as it banked away from the airfield.
“It’s too early to say how serious it could have been,” said the AAIB spokesman in London yesterday, stressing that this was a preliminary probe.
But even at this early stage, the incident has reopened local concerns about airline safety and high-rise buildings close to the runway.
Such concerns had already been publicly aired in relation to new developments such as Waterport Terraces, the Eastside Development and the Midtown Project.
All of these developments are already subject to specific rules on height in relation to the distance from the airport.
According to its website, the AAIB is tasked with investigating “civil aircraft accidents and serious incidents” within UK airspace.
The purpose of its investigations is not to apportion blame or liability but to improve aviation safety by determining causes and making safety recommendations to prevent a reoccurrence.
The findings of the AAIB investigation, which will likely take several weeks to conclude, will be published in its monthly bulletin.

[HerbieDdog]

It was a calm and extremely murky night. You call visual or going around at 3 miles (approx 1000') and if you go around you turn south at 1900' which if you are landing on 09 would most probably take you over the town! The transmission from GIB approach seems to be the fly in the ointment. Dark calm night things sound loud. Enough said?

[jackbauer]

Dark calm night things sound loud. Enough said?
So that will be the end of the investigation then! If only they were all that simple.

[banshee]

Well, I hope if the go-around takes you over the town, the approach was for 27 ! The noise does indeed rattle around the bay at GIB on a still and murky night.
A 757 at approach weight for GIB goes up very quickly, un-like some other types.

[teachin]

I've done this flight a good few times as a passenger. It always is in my mind on approach especially winter time. The last few times we have gone around or gone to Tangiers waited and then gone over to Malaga and coached back to Gib.

These things happen with such a weird runway, crosswinds and downdraft and such a short runway. I swear I saw my sister glaring up at us as we flew over the airport terminal!

[ops_slave]

was going to say - amazed they let them divert into Malaga from GIB.

Normally the Spanish ATC get narky if you file a plan to GIB with an LE** alternate. Plans here are usually filed with an LP** alternate. Anyone any experience of this? Did the Monarch crew get grief from ATC over it?

O_S

[chevvron]

Ops Slave - you have to go to Tangier or Faro first, then you can divert to Spain.

[heebeegb]

Not any more you don't.

[Bumz_Rush]

The screens in the terminal at Luton were not working, and as a result of waiting in the Exec lounge was almast late for the flight, the screens in the terminal and lounge showed a estimated deaprture time, but nothing more.

A slight delay on departure. But did get to sit next to a lovely Russian Girl, aft row LHS.

The IFE did not work and a free drink was given to all.

It was not a calm night. There was turbulance all the way from Luton.

I checked the METAR and TAF, as I left home in Luton, and there was forecast reasonable strong winds, with heavy rain showers in the relevent period, but not enought that I would have predicted a diversion, unless in the middle of a rain shower.

The seal belt signs were no on for most of the turbulance.

Top of descent was in the usual place, just south of Madrid, and apart from a smooth layer, turbulent most of the way down hill.

My first point of concern was as we were "x wind", we would normally be on a Radar heading. ( I do not have the charts in front of me). The first indication of a problem, was that (on the left hand side), I could see Algeceras port, VERY close, then a almost 90 degree turn to the right. We were ( on my side ) VMC, NO real turbulance, but reasonable strong wind. (the GIB plates do warn of turbulance.)

This visual sighting would suggest we were much closer to the runway, that usual, for the two bites at the final turn.

As a result would have been too close for a stable approach.

The missed approach was a non event, nice climb, and off to AGP.

I was very surprised at the lack of second attempt.

The Malaga arrival was fine, little light rain.

One hour for the bags, and 2 hrs almost for the coach to GIB. Arrival at Gib about 0030L.

The return flight sat at AGP (Luton was closed), until 5am (UK?) and departed to Luton. Arriving at LTN after 7am (L).

Not sure how the duty hours worked on that. The aircraft does a Canaries earlier in the day.

There were several misses later in the week.

A missed approach at GIB, is a regular event, and should not cause any heart ache, as AGP is an approved direct diversion.

The week later return from AGP to LTN made a miss at LTN due to traffic on the runway. Not certain if an honest report, but all ops looked and sounded normal.

As to high rise, there are many developments in hand at GIB, but there are NONE that effect the approach tunnel. There are many cranes in the area, but all shielded either by existing building, or the rock itself.

The Minima are high to account for the rock.


I have a copy of the Gibraltar Cronicle which quotes the incident, but they have nothing more to add.

Rainboe, if I can be of more assitance, feel free to PM.


Bumz (back in LON).

[chevvron]

I would have thought that with a substantial lump of limestone 1000ft high situated immmediately south of the runway, a high rise apartment block less than half that height (they're not called flats any more) would be the least of their worries. Next thing you'll be comparing it with the high rise apartments round the old Kai Tak airport.

[ops_slave]

A missed approach at GIB, is a regular event, and should not cause any heart ache, as AGP is an approved direct diversion.


Whats your source on the fact that AGP is an approved divert?

[Jet A1]

GB been doing it for at least a year now.....

[HerbieDdog]

Bumz_Rush
The wind was northerly at 5 kts so no cross wind problems. Low down the turbulence was only down to about 3500' then it was smooth all the way down. The problem was very much poor visibility in drizzle hence no point in a second approach and as for the unstable approach comment you have got to be having a laugh. You may be off duty crew or just a regular traveller but all your info is speculative. You were not looking out of the front window and you did not have access to the "actual" wx. You are talking B...............

ops_slave
At least 18 months ago the Spanish military dropped their objections for traffic diverting from GIB straight to a Spanish airfield, hence no more TNG.

[Rainboe]

Bumz Rush- that was a bizarre posting!
<<Rainboe, if I can be of more assitance, feel free to PM.>>

So what eactly were you doing on the flight? Were you on the flight deck or not? If you were in the cabin, an extraordinary interpretation of events?

So do we have 'an incident' or not, or just a go-around in rough weather and a drama being made? It doesn't help trying to assess the situation when excitable laymen choose to involve themselves. I'm getting the feeling this is another 'go-around, must get it onto Pprune quick' type non-event.

[Bumz_Rush]

I was as I said down the back on the left side.
The vis from the window was good, and as I said, I have never as a pax seen Algerceras that close.
Was the overflight of the town, before or after the miss. As from where I was sitting it looked as if the miss was normal, and the "late" turn to finals might be the "over town" segment.
Rainboe, I was asking if you had more "direct" information that might be relevent, and not wish to post here.
Herbie, I would agree that I was not looking out of the front window, but as stated have flown as pax and operating crew the aproach enough times.
AGP is now approved as a direct diversion (I suspect a weather only approval) by the Spanish. (I assume they are JAA, just like the UK.) except for the open sky aspect.

As already asked, was there an incident, lets wait and see. The report will provide the offical answer.

Bumz

[Rainboe]

So the flight came up from the south on base leg through the bay, and turned right to land to the east, at night, in bumpy bad murky rainy weather, and you were sitting on the left hand side, near the rear......and can speak with authority on where the aeroplane was placed and how the approach went? I see............excuse me, I think I need a Nurofen.

[fmgc]

Despite the short reprive all diverts have to be to TNG again now.

[Bumz_Rush]

Which idiot decided that TNG was GIB (south)...perhaps it is the same chap who ensures that it takes so long to cross the border, as Spanish Customs search cars for smuggled Sugar.

Bumz

[Bengerman]

Flew GB to Gib on Sat 18th. Lumpy old approach, going from lumpy to downright rough as we approached 27. Capt elected to fly a Go Around, seemed nicely handled, and, after holding for a few minutes, we diverted to Malaga.
Whole thing seemed professionally handled, pax kept informed and it does not appear to be unusual for Gib to have diversions.
If an airport has a lot of Go Arounds (Jersey is another that springs to mind) then it is more likely that there will be the occassionally "non-standard" one flown. It is unfortunate that the topography of Gib makes these Go Arounds more demanding than would otherwise be the case.

[chevvron]

So it now seems it flew low over Algeciras rather than Gibraltar town as we all first thought!

[Bumz_Rush]

Watched your GA and was slightly surprised, but could not see wind sock at far end, but it was blustery, at least where I was.
Chevvron: Was it actually Algeciras, or is that observation based on my comment that we were much closer to it then I have even seen.
fmgc: where is the notam for the TNG diversions located, please.
Bumz

[fmgc]

Of all the years that I have been going there it has never been NOTAMed.

They will not stop you diverting directly to AGP (therefore no need for a NOTAM) but if you do then you will have go AGP-TNG-AGP empty before they will allow you to carry your (bussed) passengers from AGP back tothe UK.

Things were resolved with the Spanish for a while and diverts could go straight to AGP but evidently diplomatic relations are not so good anymore so back to TNG.

[radarman]

By heck, there's a load of twaddle on this thread. Almost as bad as 'The Sun'. The SRA to 09 was bog standard, straight up the recommended track as depicted on the plates, maintaining the correct distance from Algeciras. The trouble started when the pilot initiated his own go-around from just inside 2 miles, having previously reported visual. Can't say any more at the moment - sub judice and all that.

[Rainboe]

I was trying to say that in the nicest of ways, but someone has twice deleted my posts. I have serious reservations about discussions on what the pilot was doing observed from the back of a 757 at night in bad weather!

[Bumz_Rush]

Rainboe: it felt wrong, the view was wrong, so perhaps it was wrong.....
Sometimes experience tells you it is wrong, so please humour me.
Radarman: Until there was real fact from a relaible source, then the information form the Gibraltar Sun, which was an extract from a CAA document, was the only public information.
However, I did see much more of Algeciras port than I have ever seen from an aircraft.
Totally agree with you re wait and see official comments.
if you are a Gib controller, perhaps a beer in Bianca's, to resolve the world aviation problems.....
fmgc: what a wonderful world we live in.
Bumz

[nivsy]

I was not on the Rock during the day in question. Certainly everyone who I have spoken to remarked that the aircraft was over the town/houses at a low altitude - and very noisy - they should know having been here and lived with normal aircraft practices - including missed approached/go arounds.

Anyway maybe Monarch will not be flying to the Rock after November as they are under going some form of review (probably heaved off with the increase in landing fees as well) . Certainly the carriers web site is not accepting bookings beyond November which is unusual on this route.

Maybe Easy Jet can fill the void.


Nivsy

[Rainboe]

Bumz Rush- I am starting to pick up severe inconsistencies. you said:
My first point of concern was as we were "x wind", we would normally be on a Radar heading. ( I do not have the charts in front of me). The first indication of a problem, was that (on the left hand side), I could see Algeceras port, VERY close, then a almost 90 degree turn to the right. We were ( on my side ) VMC, NO real turbulance, but reasonable strong wind. (the GIB plates do warn of turbulance.)

This visual sighting would suggest we were much closer to the runway, that usual, for the two bites at the final turn.

As a result would have been too close for a stable approach.
1- I can't imagine at night approaching Gib bay from the south you were on anything other than a radar vector
2- So was it a 'problem' that you were VERY close to Algeciras?
3- If you were that close to Algeciras, you were on a wide base leg, so why do you say you were 'much closer to the runway' than usual for the 2 bites for final? It would appear there was not much 'cutting the corner' because you refer to a 90 degree turn to the right. Yet still you say that you were 'too close for a stable approach'? Well, were you too near or too far- which is it?
4- At some stage the aeroplane was on finals and went around. I assume it went around straight ahead to the east and did not do the impossible, a hard right to pass to the west of the Rock right over the town? So what part of town was overflown exactly?
5- The runway is close to the Rock, and buildings come right up to the runway. Was it nothing more than a low go-around that people were startled by? There is not much scope for passing south of the runway during the go-around. Can one say that because it was night and because of the terrain, they poured on all the coals that Messrs. Rolls & Royce could supply- a very noisy low go-around?

Any pilot quickly learns one cannot trust any distance perception at night. You were in the back seat of a 757 on the left, in a right hand circuit. I think it difficult to accurately assess what befell the flight until the FDR is accessed, and for the sake of the crew, a public review of what 'might have happened' is better withheld until the report over the 'incident' is released, or further positive information is officially given. It is just not fair to the crew or the airline to keep on with this speculation.

[Bumz_Rush]

If I am becoming inconsistant I am very sorry.

To close to Algeciras, was what I said, and I still maintain that I have never looked down on the port, but normally look at it level. We had not started the miss.

I was trying to balance the statements against the instrument approach plate, so thats where the numbers came from.

Lastly, and this is my last input, an early miss is almost silent, even from the side of the runway, where I normally would be located.
If the miss was straight ahead, and over the town it would also be on direct track to the rock.

From now on I will keep my trap shut.....Bumz

[pilotatlast]

Apparently the AIB now involved and the two pilots have been grounded pending further investigation?

[Rainboe]

I think it better to leave it to the AAIB to produce a recorder trace than to try and reconstruct the flight here from a view from a cabin seat down the back or the experiences of a regular Gib passenger not even on the flight or witnessing events!

[fmgc]

Why would AAIB be invlolved? CAA yes, but there was no accident.

[Greenfinch]

Bumz, you stated.......

Watched your GA and was slightly surprised

Believe me, it doesn't take much in GIB to generate severe turbulence on short final (hence the low wind limits if it's blowing anywhere near southerly).

Rainboe, you said.......

I can't imagine at night approaching Gib bay from the south you were on anything other than a radar vector

On a clear night I've gone visual from south of the rock - no probs !

[Rainboe]

Sorry- slip of tongue- not AAIB, just CAA investigation, but I assume the AAIB would be in charge of the rcorder side/ Maybe no.

I assume due proximity with the international border which I would epect would be somewhere between Algeciras and Gib, and the fact that the weather conditions were The problem was very much poor visibility in drizzle hence no point in a second approach and as for the unstable approach comment you have got to be having a laugh. a radar vector from the south would have been automatic, so proximity to Algeciras would have been determined by the controller? I'm still looking for a problem here apart from people near the airport being startled by a noisy go-around! There are too many inconsistencies to speculate any further. I really don't like these Pprune Court Martials.

[Danny]

Apparently the AAIB have become involved but only because of the military link with the airfield.

As Rainboe has stated:Any pilot quickly learns one cannot trust any distance perception at night. You were in the back seat of a 757 on the left, in a right hand circuit. I think it difficult to accurately assess what befell the flight until the FDR is accessed, and for the sake of the crew, a public review of what 'might have happened' is better withheld until the report over the 'incident' is released, or further positive information is officially given. It is just not fair to the crew or the airline to keep on with this speculation.I have to agree with him and out of respect for my fellow colleagues, it is time for this thread to close until such time as there is some official news.