Maths and Physics knowledge req'd for ATPL and airline flying?

[wince]

why do I keep on hearing myths about training to be an airline pilot being extremely difficult? Is it? how much maths & physics is there during training? is it hard?

[spin_doctor]

Training to be a pilot is difficult, otherwise everyone would do it.

Seriously though, there is a lot of groundschool to cover on the course, but the actual technical level of this work is not too hard (somewhere around A-Level standard for the most part).

Maths and Physics come in handy for the more technical bits, bt generally it's an exercise in learning a lot of facts.

If you get stuck with bits there are always people on PPRUNE to ask for help.

[wince]

cheers spin_doctor, I guess I'll have to take the dust out of those old maths & physics books and have a browse...

[G-BPEC]

Hi,

Is it now neccesary to have an A level in Maths to becaome a (sponsered) pilot? If you dont have maths then, (apart from Physics) what else do airlines prefer? All advice welcome

G-BPEC

[Guy Devane]

Spelling is quite useful...

[Rusty Cessna]

Hi there everyone,

This is a bit off the topic of this forum, but I kinda need a bit of help. Due to pursuing various activities I have been absent from a bit of my A/S Level Physics and Maths coursework.

I am quite annoyed at this and so I am lookinf to find ways on how to make up the information I have lost in class.

If anyone knows of any good revision/learning methods or resources then I would be very greatfull.

Thanks very much folks
Rusty

[Trislander]

Hi

I am too at college studying as maths and physics. I suggest the BBC AS guru website for maths but physics I am not sure about. contact me if you need more help.

Tri

[GJB]

Rusty - tut tut.

Judging by the number of posts since your registration, it is quite obvious what you have been doing instead of attending class ;)

In all serious, only you can turn the situation around for yourself. My advice is to:

Identify where your weaknesses exist and make a study timetable for yourself. Don't overload and take regular breaks. You don't need to study for every hour of every day - in fact this could prove to be counter-productive. Also, reward yourself after making progress like going for a drink or logging onto PPRUNE!

You can get past paper books - try these examples.

If you are really struggling in areas - ask someone who can help you (classmates or teachers)

Stay calm and don't panic.

Good luck

[Genghis the Engineer]

It's considerable time since I did my A levels, but I found the "Letts Revise" guides incredibly helpful.

And don't spend so much time on the internet! (Strange, I have a stepson doing A-levels this year and keep saying the same things to him).

G

[Northern Lad]

The best way, in my opinion, is to get some past exam papers and work your way throught them with the aid of a text book. You will notice that the same questions come up year after year. The biggest part of A-levels is learning how to do exams!!

Good luck.

[mjt99]

Howdy,

I am currently in the process of applying to the cadetship programme offered by BA, following an unsuccessful attempt last year. Could anyone offer any advice about the maths test at the interview stage, any other additional advice would be great also!

Cheers

[Speedbird 2946]

E-mail me if you like!

SB :)

[UniformJuliet]

Hi,
There are a couple of good books out there which I found via Amazon.co.uk. Try searching for How to Pass Numericals Reasoning Tests and see what you get back.

[Patsy 001]

There was talk of a program that can be run using excel that generated random numbers etc. I don't know if it actually provided you with questions (ie 348767/34 etc) but with random numbers you could practice yourself.

I don't actually have the program, but would like it, so if someone has it could they post their details so I and others could get a copy please. Thanks.

There is a book called (I think) "Aptitude Testing for Military Pilots" available from Amazon (I don't have the ISBN at the minute) which helped me get through the Aer Lingus aptitudes last year - definately worth the money. I have it at home if someone would like a photocopy of some of the practice tests (maths, english etc) drop me an e mail and fax number and I can get you some of them.

Good Luck

Patsy 001

[Patsy 001]

There was talk of a program that can be run using excel that generated random numbers etc. I don't know if it actually provided you with questions (ie 348767/34 etc) but with random numbers you could practice yourself.

I don't actually have the program, but would like it, so if someone has it could they post their details so I and others could get a copy please. Thanks.

There is a book called (I think) "Aptitude Testing for Military Pilots" available from Amazon (I don't have the ISBN at the minute) which helped me get through the Aer Lingus aptitudes last year - definately worth the money. I have it at home if someone would like a photocopy of some of the practice tests (maths, english etc) drop me an e mail and fax number and I can get you some of them.

Good Luck

Patsy 001

[Patsy 001]

Spot the difference!!! :)

[SpeedBird22]

Well, its got me beat....

;) ;) ;) ;)

[GJB]

No, but you definitely spelt 'definately' wrong in both posts!

[Patsy 001]

Bloody Spellchecker!!! :rolleyes:

[La Fantasque]

Hello all,
Just wondering if it is absoluetly neccesary to have A-level maths to get a place on an airline sponsorship sceme. I looked at the BA website on this and they did not mention it as a requirement. I am just about to do my GCSEs and have to make my choices now for 6th form. Although I am prepared to do maths I would rather not as it is not my strongest subject. I am going to do Physics and I know they go together well but if there is anyway out of it I will take it as long as it does not jepordize my chances of a place.
All answers greatly appreciated,
La Fantasque.

Ps. sorry if this has been posted before.

[Oldie Volvo]

My dear old thing - if it helps I am just
coming towards 25 years since my first flying
lesson which was followed by a long time in
the military and now a career in the airlines. I only managed a bare pass in what
was then 'O' level maths and failed physics.
To be fair I did go on through A levels and
further education but in a direction very
firmly away from the usual requirements
quoted for a career in the cockpit/flightdeck.

I have flown with very many pilots who have
had a non-scientific educational background
and I believe that it is of no detriment as
long as you have a basic ability to learn.

It is a fact of life however that both the
airlines and the military are looking for
potential when they are handing out chances
to fly at their expense. The measure of such
potential which requires maths/physics et al
is simplistic but it does make their selection procedures easier for them to deal
with when faced with a mountain of applications.

The flip side of the equation is of course
that maths/science to the highest level does
not indicate an ability to fly an aircraft
though it may show a greater understanding
of what makes it work !

So at the end of the day you must remember
that if you are looking for a career you
will have to fit in with their rules and
requirements - get that squared away and you
should soon find that the perceived level
of academic ability to do the job is not as
high as you thought - unless of course you
want to be a test pilot but that is another
story altogether.

good luck

[La Fantasque]

Thanks Oldie Volvo.
I think that ,although it is not required and ,like your own example, you can make it without, I should just make the effort and do it because it is not that I am incapable, just that I find it incredibly hard. I may just do it up to AS level but with the amount of competition on the sponsered schemes I must stand out.
Once agaion thank you very much for your reply, La Fantasque.

[Rusty Cessna]

Simply put,

Do the subjects you LIKE. They will prove more interesting and you will then without knowing it put in more effort.

I did AS Maths with the intention of working really hard at it, make no mistake about it, it is THE hardest subject going in my opinion, and it will soon seem like a wall of numbers if you don't enjoy it!

Good luck,
Rusty

[La Fantasque]

Thanks very much for your replies. As I said I think I might do AS maths but I will definetely bare in mind Rusty's comments.
La Fantasque.

[High Volt]

Don't be intimidated by mathematics as a subject. It's really only a language that enables you to understand the fundamental aspects of the real world. Unfortunately it is often presented by rather uninspiring people!

Like Oldie Volvo I've got a less than perfect academic career but have served out some time in the RAF and now fly for an airline. The RAF gave me a lot of confidence with maths because the training that I received related to problems faced in the real world and you could see first hand why such knowledge is so valuable.

That said, at your stage in the game I found maths to be rather intimidating and certainly dull. Do remember that there is always a hard way and an easy way of doing things. If you can produce the goods at
A Level you stand more chance of convincing an airline to pay for your training: more importantly you will have a job at the end of it.

A real tip for passing exams is to get hold of the syllabus and work through each point on the list crossing them off as you go. If you know your stuff on each point you will not get any nasty surprises in the exam (if it aint on the list they can't ask you!).

Good luck - never mistake effort for progress.

[La Fantasque]

Cheers High Volt. I feel pretty similar to the way you did. Am I making things alot harder for myself by not doing it? I'm hoping to get a place in university and I don't expect to even apply for the airlines until I've finished (Although I would rather just get into flying as soon as possible!). Hopefully university will make me stand out more in a crowd.
La Fantasque.

[High Volt]

It's a difficult time right now. Chase girls drink beer, listen to lots of real load rock music - do anything but do not waste time.

[FL390]

I have posted somehting along these lines in another post.

But anyway, an airline would prefer someone that has an A in, say Geography, rather than a B/C in Maths. I am about to do GCSEs and I chose Physics/Biology/Geography and Business Studies for AS/A2.

But choose subjects that you enjoy as they are mosy likely to be te ones that you will do well in. :)

[High Volt]

FL390: Doubt if many airlines will get wrapped up in the difference between the odd A or B grade. English is another subject that will strengthen your case.

[WGW]

As one with A-Level Maths and Physics, plus a degree in Aero Eng, yet still getting rejected by BA after FB, I'd have to come to the following conclusion:

Airlines want people who do not quit. Ever. If you think you'll give A-Level maths a go, then come out with a poor grade, that may count against you more than not having done it at all.

The fact is (and I may well be corrected here), most people who apply to be pilots are those that have done Maths, Physics, etc. at school. Many have a degree, and Aero Eng is a common one. If you turn up with Art, Geography and Music and a degree in Geology, you may just stand out from the rest, despite what the airlines might say in their literature. They want a broad cross-section of people, and are under increasing pressure to find such people.

Bear in mind you may/will need to pass aptitude tests. These will include maths tests, but believe me, they are nothing like A-level. More like GCSE on speed (and don't start doing that sh*t either...)

From what I gather though, what airlines want is a 100% total commitment to aviation. Go with your heart, do what you're best at. Get the best grades you can, apply to airlines and UCAS. Do a degree in whatever you enjoy most. Get the best results you can.

But if you want that airline job, keep that in the back of your mind, whatever you decide. When your friends are working in Tesco, work at an airfield. When they spend their uni grant on beer, get an hour or two of flying in (all airlines accept that school kids and students can't afford many hours, but if you have just a few hours over a three year period, it's infinitely better than nothing at all). When your friends do D of E at school, join the ATC. When they join the wine tasting society at uni, join the Air Squadron.

These are the things that count most.

So you do all these things and decide that maybe flying isn't for you. Then you can see how the airline recruiters might think about those that have never tried.

So you do all these things and decide that flying is for you?

Then you WILL make it. One day. Somehow.

There's a wealth of people on this forum that wish they'd started earlier. You're in a most fortunate position. Make it count. And the most sincere best of luck to you.

WGW

[La Fantasque]

Thanks for the encouraging replies. Its nice to know I'm not forced down any specific paths. I'll definetely take your advise and get as much aviation related things as I can into my life! Thanks again!!

La Fantasque....

[NewBloke]

I can remember links to an Excel download that allowed a mental arithmetic practice sesh. However I don't seem to be able to find it :confused: The search facility seems to be unavailable (unless it's my crappy machine). Sorry chaps, I know it's probably cropped up a million times before.... Any help will be gratefully received.... :)

NB.

[Superpilot]

pssst NB: over here! www.superpilot.co.uk (http://www.superpilot.co.uk) - follow the link to downloads.

Not Excel but does the same job.

(and before anybody nags me about the copyright photos - I have permission)
;)

[ 23 July 2001: Message edited by: Superpilot ]

[NewBloke]

Cheers SP ! :)

[Rusty Cessna]

Thanks SP!

That's amazing for what I want too, got anything for the fractions, division, multiplication and basic algebra?? hehe.

Thanks again,
Rusty

[Superpilot]

For those get hold of “How to Pass Numeracy Tests” by Harry Tolley and Ken Thomas. ISBN 0-7494-3437-6

Questions are always of the form:

How many miles will a lorry have travelled if it maintained an average speed of 35 mph for 6.5 hours?

A) 220
B) 222.5
C) 225
D) 227.5
E) 230

A piece of wood is 120.4 cm long. A saw cuts it into 3 equal sections and wastes 0.2cm with each cut. How long are the sections?

(A, B, C, D or E)

21 litres of paint covers 7/8 of room, how much to finish the job?

(A, B, C, D or E)

15 sec for task, how many times in an hour?

(A, B, C, D or E)

Get someone to write similar questions for you, a brother or sister perhaps. All they have to do is vary the topics, names and figures. It’s the best form of practice.

[Eggboy]

Hi Guys
just to take this one stage further, does anyone know of a website or a book to aid in preparation for the spatial tests, where you have to identify which shapes can be made by folding along the dotted lines?
Thanks in advance,
Eggboy :confused:

[justine23]

hi guys/girls
i am thinking about commencing an atpl course and was just wondering what kind of maths and physics one has to be up to speed with before commencing an atpl course
it has been 5 years since school so ive forgotten most of the stuff
would be greatful for any replies

[Whispering Giant]

Hi there Justine.

In responce to your question about the math's and physic's requirement's for the ATPL - to be honest it's not to onourous, a bsic knowledge of electrical system's and formulae's,transposition of formulae's is all that is required.
It is more a case of volume that u are required to learn rather than that require's an intricate and extreamly in-depth knowledge.
If you require any further information - please do not hesitate to contact me - as i have just started my JAA ATPL license exam's.

[Nearly Man]

Justine

Whispering Giant is spot on!
I was getting myself into a spin worrying about Trig and maths blah blah blah

I never had either of those two and I found the subjects not too bad at all and any equations that leap up can be bashed up and throttled with feedback before the exams .. common sense is king!

ta ta

[tailscrape]

Justine.

I passed them, so I think you will!

Don't worry, do the course and enjoy it. It is a hard slog though, so don't be deluded by that.......and it is HARD to get the first job!

TS

[oxford blue]

For the Maths, you need to be quick and proficient at elementary mental arithmetic - adding, subtracting, multiplying, dividing - without a calculator - quickly and accurately.
You need to be able to re-arrange elementary algebra - ie, "make 'x' the subject of the following equation" when it is set out as 'y' = something.
And you need to understand sine, cosine, and tangent.
It really doesn't need to be any deeper than that. No calculus. No hyperbolic functions.

Physics is pretty much the same level. Ohm's Law. Kirchoff's Law. Wheatstone's Bridge. Basic Electricity, Heat, and Light. Elementary Work and Energy. Resolution of several forces pulling in different directions. The Gas Laws - relationship between pressure, volume, and temperature. Reading graphs. Interpolating between columns and rows from tabulated information.

That's about it.

[dc1]

Can anyone suggest a good maths/physics book. Its about nine years since I finished school and even then was never too bothered at the whole maths/physics lark. I've started my ppl and will continue all the way to frozen ATPL (fingers crossed).

I need a book which is good for home study (i.e easy to teach/refresh yourself). A book which teaches the basics of the type of maths and physics one needs in order to fully understand the course content from PPL onwards.

There must be some idiot proof book out there which revises the whole weights/measurements/angles/velocities etc etc. and then the more complicated stuff. Cheers:)

[VFE]

Get your hands on the Orange or purple GCSE maths book. Physics books are not really called for.

VFE.

[dc1]

VFE. Thanks for your reply and your info is noted.

If there is a better book out there which someone might have heard good things about please let me know. Thanks.

[Justiciar]

I really don't think that any general book you buy is going to help, unless you've got a burning desire to get into the theory. For example, you can use the 1 in 60 rule in navigation without needing to know why it works (the sine of angles up to 45 degrees approximates to the angle in degrees x 1/60th, if your interested!).

The two main sets of PPL books explain what you need to know in sufficient detail - I favour the Jeremy Pratt books personally. Alot of rules of thumb actually derive from quite complex theory and are really irrelevant at most levels of flying (the theory that is, not the rule of thumb).

If you really are struggling then there are I think one or two people doing basic maths and physics course for pilots. This might be a better option. Don't forget that when you come to Aircraft Technical there's alot of stuff about engines, ignition and braking systems etc where background knowledge would in theory be useful. Unless you've got alot of time to spare you are better attacking each subject and highlighting weak areas which you can then cover in more detail if you need to.

Not quite the answer to the question but hopefully a little help.

[dc1]

Thanks Justiciar. Perhaps you're right. Just wanted to get a bit of a head start so I would'nt struggle with certain aspects. Cheers.

[SFI145]

Try 'Maths and Physics for pilots' part of the Keynotes series.

[PilotOnline]

SFI145,

Do you have a web link or any info on where you can get a copy of this book 'Maths and Physics for Pilots'? I had a quick search and looked on Amazon and drew a blank. I'd definitely be interested in that as my maths is a little rusty and I want to brush up before starting ATPL theory in September.

[Holryn]

PilotOnline,

I'm in the same postion as you - need brush up with the old maths. Haven't really done much since 'O' Levels many, many years ago.

Strangely enough I posted almost the exact same message on the Bristol forum two days ago.

I'm planning to start my ATPLs in September (subject to the Class 1).

I been doing some research about the maths side of things and found the Letts Revision Guides website seems to have some useful stuff - http://www.letts-education.com/index.jhtml - got some good links from it also.

What route are you planning to take with the ATPLs - Int or Mod?

I see you're in London, PM me if you're interested in hooking up and having a chat.

Paul
:ok:

[My names Turkish]

For example, you can use the 1 in 60 rule in navigation without needing to know why it works (the sine of angles up to 45 degrees approximates to the angle in degrees x 1/60th, if your interested!).

So what happens when you need to use an angle of more than 45 degrees? Like for instance in Radio Nav, when working out the diameter of the cone of confusion at a specified height which is 60 degrees, then 1 in 60 isint quite accurate enough.

Definitely a good idea to get a bit of work in on the Maths. As someone whos Math is described as "awful" by my Atpl instructor I should know. Triginometry was an optional subject when I was in school and my Maths teacher said it was easier to get marks in other subjects like Co-ordinate geometry. So having to do it for the Atpl meant having to stop the class to give a maths class, which made me feel about as popular as a fart in a Space Suit. So triginometry including Pythagorus theorem will be handy to have to avoid this situation. A fundamental knowledge of Algebra is very important, manipulation of formulae is 100% something you will need( I knew how to do that already, thank god). You dont have to go into too much depth with either of these topics just the fundamentals. I would think that the books for intermediate or final secondary school exams would do the job. Anything better will just scare you and be over the top.

[VFE]

As someone who was about as predisposed to maths at school as Hannibal the Cannibal was to vegetarianism I feel more than qualified to chime up on this topic.

I remember asking this very same question before I started flying and recieved numurous(!) replies from all manner of peeps in the pro aviation field. These days because this sort of topic has been raised quite often those guys tend not to post on these matters anymore.

From memory, the useful areas to hit are:

Ratios

Percentages

Properties of Circles

Trigonometry

Algebra

Indices

Using a scientific calculator (square root key and squared key mainly although some have great arc to time conversion buttons which you'd do well to discover) is useful too.

I personally have not struggled too badly with the maths in ATPL. I left school with a 'D' grade in GCSE maths eight years ago. Rearranging formulae is probably the toughest part of the deal and to be honest with you I still ain't much good at that but with only four exams left to sit (which includes only one that has any maths involved) I'm not too concerned.

Most study notes from schools include the mathematical working in their notes when required but even so, it's a good idea to brush up so as not to waste time when you start the ATPL course.

VFE.

[SFI145]

PilotOnline

I think all of the Keynotes books (including Maths and Physics for pilots) are available in the Pilot Warehouse and Transair catalogues.

[dc1]

Great info guys. Appreciate it.:8

[C172Navigator]

You may wish to take a look at Engineering Mathematics by K A Stroud - http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0333919394/ref=sr_aps_books_1_1/026-1148904-1570055 . I used this for GCSE and A-Level, and is excellent. Very easy to follow, a pretty big book, but you'll pick things up quickly. I guess it will have more in than you need, but I found the teaching style very good to work with.

[Evo]

Stroud - best Maths textbook I ever used (along with volume 2 which is equally good), but I used it during the first year of a Physics degree so it's probably a bit over the top for the ATPLs.

[mad_jock]

There is also a casio calculator which has all the conv's on it that the whizz wheel does for about 12 quid.

But some people find figuring out how the calculator works harder than doing the actual sum.

During the brush up courses I must of spent 3-4 hours showing some of the others how their calculator worked.

The maths needed for ATPL isn't much more than primary school maths.

MJ

[Anthony Carn]

This all seems a bit OTT. It is'nt rocket science.

sin = opposite/hypotenuse

cos = adjacent/hypotenuse

tan = opposite/adjacent

Remembered by the mnemonic SOHCAHTOA

Variations -

sin times hypotenuse = opposite

hypotenuse = opposite/sin

angle = inverse sin [opposite/hypotenuse]

etc etc

Pythagoras hypotenuse ^2 = opposite ^2 + adjacent ^2



Errrr ! Can't think what else you need, unless you never went to primary school. Calculators make it a doddle.

If in doubt, do a Google at the time ? Lots of stuff on the net !

Hope this mainly helps to save you lots of unnecessary work ! The courses themselves, especially condensed ones, stretch endurance to the limit (not least one's limits of sheer boredom) ! Go skiing or something before your course - chill out ! :ok:

[NineEighteen]

FYI...

I was taught a different way of remembering the sin, cos & tan formulae.

O/H = Sin (Orange Have Segments)
A/H = Cos (Apples Have Cores)
O/A = Tan (Oranges are Tasty)

I hope it helps.

BTW, it's not the maths that makes the ATPL's tricky, it's the volume of knowledge you need stuffed into your head.

Having said that it will definitely help if you can transpose formulae without thinking too much about it.

[Mobieus1]

What about Silly Old Harry Caught A Haddock Trawling Of America.

Used that right through my degree:D

[My names Turkish]

Dont you mean Silly Old Harry Chased a Horse Through Our Atic?:p I wonder how many more variations are out there?

[sullie]

or even

Some old horses s = o/h
can always hide c = a/h
their old age t = o/a

:)

[IMC1]

Recently secured my class One medical and starting to choose my ATPL course. As it’s been 10years since full time education, how helpful / essential has a maths brush up course been before starting. I know it’s an individual thing – but any advice appreciated.

[Flypuppy]

I found a basic understanding of maths is all that is really required. The ability to transpose equations effectively and quickly is a definate must though. (V=I x R and derivations there of etc)

If you are not long out of school, or did a science/engineering based subject at college/uni it wont be much of a problem for you. If you are an old grunter like me, it might be worth trying to find a local maths teacher who is willing to do a bit of one to one for revising O Grade/ O Level / GCSE(?) maths. You shouldn't need much to get back into the swing of things.

[YYZ]

I have just started on the ATPLs and I agree with your first reply, you appear to only need a basic understanding.

Although it is taken a few re-takes to understand it fully it is sinking in, I have not gone through all of what I need to know yet (not by a long way) but what I have I can grasp, & I aint very clever!!
You should be ok? If not you can still do a brush up later?
:8

[no sponsor]

I've done some investigation into available courses. Check your PMs.

:ok:

[A and C]

When you walk into the classroom on day one sit next to the youngest person there , the chances are that Daddy paid for a very good education before fronting up for the ATPL.

Then copy for the next three weeks untill you get the hang of it.

[Keith.Williams.]

For most people who have been out of education for a while, a few days of maths revision prior to starting ATPL study is extremely useful. Most schools provide a maths test prior to signing-up for training. This should help to identify any problems.

Some schools also provide a short maths revision course at no extra cost as a lead-in to the first module of study. If your school offers it, you should take full advantage of it. If you are considering going to a school that does not offer it, then you should ask them why not. It costs them next to nothing and is invaluable to instructors and students alike.

[High Wing Drifter]

I think even just getting a GCSE revision book is sufficient. It really does not take long to get familiar with all those terms and concepts.

If anything, I wondered why I found maths so hard when I was at school. It all seems so much easier in comparision to the stuff I have to do at work!

[eire_boy]

Im currently doing my PPL slowly but surely... my biggest worry is not being able for the maths involved, Im trying to find any helpbook \ guide out there that helps with the Maths & Physics needed for the next stage after PPL level.

Only one I found so far is on Pooleys Website (http://www.pooleys.com/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_Keynotes_for_Pilots_74.html)

If any of you have used it how did you find it and do you know of any thing else like it out there similar or better;)

[six-sixty]

Not a book as such but Bristol groundschool offer a weeks pre-ATPL maths course, though I don't know anyone who's done it. www bristol.gs

[Bobby Guzzler]

Eire Boy,

Don't worry about doing maths and physics prep for the CPL. I had one friend on my course in particular who had been out of education for 20 years and found it a breeze. He apparently never even opened a maths or science book in his earlier years.

If you get enrolled onto the right course they'll give you all the help you need - just make sure you become fluent on a calculator!

;)

[VFE]

Never had any major problems with the maths or physics involved at ATPL level or CPL level for that matter and I have a very limited background in these areas. I understand this is cause for concern at the moment for you because I was exactly the same but trust me when I say that with the right school (BGS worked for me) you shouldn't struggle much at all.

Brush over some basic trigonometry, algebra and learn what the sin, cos and tan buttons on your calculator are for and you shouldn't have too much to worry about. For physics just get hold of an old GCSE medium level book if you're really worried but my opinion is that you'll be fine.

Hope this puts your mind at ease.

VFE.

[buzzc152]

I'd agree with what the others have said. Don't worry too much about it. There is a fair bit of maths/physics involved but nothing too troubling. Get hold of a GCSE maths book and have a flip through that if you like. Discard all the stats, quadratics etc. Be happy with basic trig, might also help to get an appreciation of relationships in equations.... ie, if one value goes down another goes up. Most of the maths involved is 'comon sense' maths..... basic arithmatic really. Everything will become clear as you work through the course.

I didn't go past GSCE Maths and find ATPL no real challenge as far as maths/physics is concerned. (ps, I went with BGS)

[Spike001]

Hi all,

I'm getting ready for my ATPL groundschool, and I'm wondering what areas of Physics and Maths do I need to study?

If any of you know, please give us a bell.

Cheers :ok:

[OneIn60rule]

basic algebra. Being able to juggle math in your head is great plus for your General nav exam and others. Basic trig knowledge is also a plus.

Physics, what goes up must come down. Newtons law but then it's taught in my ATPL ground school. Bernioulli's law as well.

Basic magnetism is also taught there.


If you wish to get a good start then I suggest getting a good book on weather, one that explains everything in colours and graphs.

Mass and balance, performance, pof and Gnav are probably the most math extensive.

The suggestion my ATPL teacher gave me before we started ATPL ground school, START JUGGLING MATH in your head. I regret not having done so.

When I say juggle math in your head it doesn't mean you should be able to get the square root of 10203050. It means you should be able to add up numbers like 37, 48, 56 together quickly as well as subracting them from each other quickly.


A good pilot dictionary to explain some the POF jargon.

[no sponsor]

I went on a brush-up maths course before I started my ATPLs. We did:

Basic algebra: learning how to transpose equations.
Basic Trig: Pythagoras, and Cos/Sine/Tan for calculations, circles

All all cases I practised using the equations from the ATPLs.

I didn't do any Physics brush up, but I did purchase a basic GCSE book for Physics which comes in handy here and there for some extra reading when I want a different perspective on something.

[FlyingForFun]

I don't think it's really essential to have any formal training in either maths or physics. However, it will make a difference - it's the difference between learning the formulae by heart and plugging them into your calculator, and actually understanding why the formulae work. Personally, I'm pleased that I understood the basics well enough that I could use them to help me understand why the formulae work. If you're sitting in an exam and you can't recall whether that formula you need for question 21 had a Sin or a Cos in it, having the ability to work it out (or just check your memory) is a nice confidence-booster.

FFF
-------------

[RichardH]

Though formal qualifications aren't a must I can assure you from an instructors point its quite obvious which students have brushed up on maths & physics.

All above replies valid, regarding physics it would be useful to know the gas laws (Charles & Boyle) also some basic DC & AC electrics (Faraday and EMF).

All these should be covered during a course, but any advanced reading is always a bonus and gives you more breathing space.

The most important thing in the maths is being able to work out a gross error check BEFORE you hit the calculator. Some students are too keen just to press buttons and come up with an answer and the calculator can't be wrong!

When you move on to the flying you won't have time to play with calculators so mental sums and gross error checks are going to be vital.

[witchdoctor]

Richard H beat me to it.

Definitely brush up on your electrics. If like me it is a subject that bores you rigid and baffled you at school, then I'm afraid there is plenty of it in the a/c systems syllabus.

The rest of the maths and physics is all very basic stuff. All this talk of algebra and transposing equations is little more difficult in reality than rearranging the figures in simple formulae (like speed/distance/time calculations) depending on which one you need to know. Any trigonometry is equally simple (basic right-angled triangle stuff), as is the understanding required of gas laws and Newtons laws. All the mathematical calculations you are likely to use are all pretty basic and nothing particularly complex.

A quick brush up over a week or so with a GCSE revision guide is more than enough to get you into the frame of mind for the studying. Forget that A-level sh1t.

[pa28biggles]

FFF, I totally agree.
I have got A Levels in both Maths and Physics, and this helps me in the way that FFF have described above. However, I would certainly say that with a brush up course (to get up to GCSE level), the ATPL learning material will be no problem. There is no point in being at A Level standard; obviously it is going to help though if you are. :ok:

[Send Clowns]

Formally there is no real requirement to revise any of the material, it should be covered in the lectures if you are learning full-time, or in the notes if you are distance learning. You are right, though, that your life will be easier if you are pre-prepared. I teach general navigation and electrics, so this list will be biased towards those areas, but what I suggest you look at is the following:

Maths (little above GCSE level):

Trigonometry
Formula rearrangement
Vectors
Circular geometry

Physics

Newtonian mechanics
Circular motion
Wave mechanics
Electrics / electronics
Fourrier analysis (I'm kidding with this one - this is degree-level and is not required, but it would help!)
Gas laws

[career girl]

Hi ya all.

Can you advise me on any techniques or any books to help me brush up on maths skills for fATPL CPL/IR training?

What maths subjects do you have to be good at to be able to cope with the training?

Appreciate your help, again!

Thanx

[Send Clowns]

GCSE revision books probably best, as there is no pilot's book (I'm trying to write one, but people keep wanting me to teach them things and I have not had the time!). The level should be correct.

You need reasonable trigonometry, to be able to rearrange a formula with three or four terms (R x A = 60 x D for example) to find one of the terms. You need pythagoras's theorem and a basic understanding of geometry of circles and of triangles. Ratios and percentages are vital, fractions useful. You will need to be able to interpolate figures that change depending on two independent variables (e.g. to work out sunset times that depend on latitude and on date, but are only tabulated every 2 degrees and every three days), but you will be shown how to do so. Use of standard index form (e.g. 2.3 x 10^12 = 2,300,000,000,000) would be handy. Some mental arithmetic will be useful for the groundschool and even more for the flying.

If you want a simple test to give you an idea send me a private message with an email address. I teach general nav, the most mathematical subject, for BCFT.

[AIRWAY]

Hello SC,

Can you copy me in if possible?

I shall send you a PM.

Many Thanks

[mazzy1026]

Me too ! Copy me in !

[WX Man]

If you get the info about the residential course with Guildhall, they might send you a self-test maths book. This is useful as you can identify your own weak points to brush up on before you start the course.

If you've got even a basic command of maths you won't have a problem- I actually quite enjoy the challenge that is Gen Nav!

PS Send Clowns... it took 4.5 minutes, answer for you tomorrow!

[eire_boy]

Was just about the post the same question.. never put any work into maths in school which im only beginning to regret now.. :(

I found the following book on the web.. Keynotes - Maths & Physics for Pilots (http://shop.pilotwarehouse.co.uk/product18400023.html?category=1740023)

Would be great to hear from anyone who has used it?

I think Oxford run a five day maths \ physics refreher course, but at least the book would be a (cheaper) step in the right direction..

[Send Clowns]

And needed some knowledge of geometry, eh, Wx man?

Looks like there is now a book - I asked about this some time ago and there was not. Obviously it would be interesting if anyone has seen it to know how good it is.

[Harves]

In my experience, I wouldn't get in too much of a stew about it, save to say basic O level/GCSE maths is fine. That is all I have and am certainly no wizz. You may be taught some formulae that sound baffling at first especially when transposing equatiions. However, if you listen to what you are taught by a good lecturer, you will realise that they tend to explain how they arrive at that equation. If in doubt, just remember the resulting formula. It is all you need, and that will be basic O Level stuff. O level taught me trig and if that is not the case now, I would certainly agree with S.C that that is important.

With regards to CPL IR flying maths, certainly don't panic...I did.

As many will tell you, what is reasonably easy on the ground becomes neigh on genius material when flying and as such, there will be many tricks of the trade shown to you for airborne calculations.

Hope this helps,

Harves

[ROTORVATION]

Hi fellow guys and girls.

My apologies if this subject is a bit dull, but it would satisfy my curiosity...

Earlier this week I was sitting in the pub discussing aviation training with a very good friend who wishes to start his PPL training. As with everything in aviation, the cashflow is always a big issue, and we spent hours discussing how he could budget for the course.

After leaving, a thought popped into my head.... if we summed all the money that budding commercial pilots owe in career development loans, bank loans, and other borrowed money, how much would that total?

£100,000 sterling gbp?
£500,000 sterling gbp?
£1,000,000 sterling gbp?
£5,000,000 sterling gbp?

This is my first post on PPRUNE, and I'm sure this might well be too much of a personal question, and one which I may risk a lot of pilots telling me to stop sticking my nose in where it's not belonged

:mad:

but I was wondering if you pilots out there may be able to think of a way of totalling this value, and get back to me?

Thanks everyone.

:ok:

[parris50]

The best way is to take the costs of the courses and hours building and add them up!

If you go modular, about £35,000 to 40,000 get you a frozen ATPL.

[kilobravo]

Hi all,

Just started ATPL's and I am realising that the last time I did Maths and Physics was 20yrs ago! Pooleys ATPL notes DO NOT go in depth by any means, so I am going to have to fill in a lot of basic blanks. Can anyone recommend books on basic maths, physics and electrics to help with formulae and to provide a grounding for the difficult study periods ahead. Any help will be much appreciated!

Happy New Year
KB:confused:

[VSFlightAttd]

<www.cranfieldaviation.com> do a "Maths And Physics for pilots" course.

Cheers

[Whirlygig]

Depending on the level to which you did the Maths & Physics (presumably at school), you will find that it comes back to you very quickly. Many of the books and courses are assuming very little knowledge (esp wrt physics) in the first place. However, if you had the knowledge once (and, at this level, physics ain't changed), your brain will drag it out of long-term archive quite readily.

Cheers

Whirlygig

[pipertommy]

Would you say physics is required to pass ATPL?.Currently doing maths night school. did`nt do it in school.

[VSFlightAttd]

Hi

What sort of physics do you need to know? Weight/mass etc?

Cheers

VSFA

[AIRWAY]

G'day,

I needed my maths and physics revised as well, what i have done is to buy those CD-roms availabe at WHSmith for GCSE and A-Level maths and Physics revision. Its working for me, quite enjoyable too.

Hoo-Roo
Airway
:8

[kilobravo]

Thanks 4 replies.

With physics I ment anything to do with wave propagation etc and any subsequent formulae, along with reflectors,dipoles etc etc. They may be keeping it all at a basic level, but I only did school level maths and physics, and can't remember any of it!
Maths its all Sin,Cos etc which simply no longer makes any sense.
I understand what goes on if explained in a physical/practical situation, like lift for example. Put in on paper in a mathematical formula and it stops making sense, so what I need is material which will explain what the formulae mean in the physical sense.
So school level material and the Cranfield notes should do the trick!?
Thanks for your advice
KB

[Whirlygig]

Nah, I'd go for Airways advice .... if any other aspects of aviation are anything to go by, then I'd say you'd save yourself a fortune in Smiths instead of Cranfield.

That reminds me - you could also the BBC Learning Bitesize stuff.

Cheers

Whirlygig

[oxford blue]

Oxford do a one-week course, if you're interested. It's aimed specifically at bringing pre-ATPL students up to entry standard in elementary maths and physics for an ATPL course.

I don't wish to appear to be advertising, but you did specifically ask. The details are on the Oxford website.

[G-SP0T]

oxford blue, to what level is the maths and physics is tought a oxford on this course? also how many ppl do u normaly get in a class?

[no sponsor]

Save your money, and do not go to a maths brush up course. I did, and it was a waste of £200. They said 10 hrs, I got 5, since they assumed you did not know how to add, or what a number was.

I have a maths O-level, and gave up Physics when I was 14. I got through the ATPLs OK.

Buy some good GCSE books. There are quite a few available, so have a look through their different styles and select the one which will suit your learning style.

Good ATPL notes will walk you through the theory and background you will need in anycase.

[oxford blue]

In response to G-SPOT, the level is precisely what is required to start an ATPL course. That is GCSE Maths and Physics. It is no higher - so some people dismiss it - but it is no lower, either - and some people underestimate it.

No Sponsor doesn't make it clear whether the course he did was an OAT course or someone else's. If he's already an ATPL, I presume it must have been a year or two ago, before OAT offered our course. He was obviously already at a higher level than some other people on the course he did. Well, I'm pleased, because he should have found the ATPL course that much easier as a result.

Actually, some people don't know how to add and subtract when they start the course. We have to start at a basic level which includes everybody. We progress beyond it quite quickly, though.

As for number on each course, in general there have been around 8 - 10 up till now. It depends largely on the take-up for each session. If it got to 20 or more, we'd probably run 2 parallel courses, or close that course off and offer later students a later date.

[Andy_R]

Actually, some people don't know how to add and subtract when they start the course

Should they really be considering a career in aviation?

Please tell me you are joking :uhoh:

[flighttime2.0]

kilobravo

check your pm's and contact me !!

[aerosteve]

KEY NOTES: MATHS AND PHYSICS FOR PILOTS.

i bought this text and have found it to be pretty useful, and its only 25 pounds from transair.

[liverbird]

Hi kilobravo
:confused:
If you contact Barry Hamblin a lecturer at Bristol ground school, he has put together a great little manual called mathematics for aviation. It’s all you need to get through the atpl exams.
:ok:

[kilobravo]

Thanks 4 the advice and information. I spoke to Cranfield about their keynotes books, inc. Maths and Physics for Pilots. I presume this is the one you mention Aerosteve. I shall order it today. I will also contact Barry Hamblin notes, thanks Liverbird.
Best lock myself in and get cracking!!!
Thanks again everyone
KB

[wbryce]

hello kilobravo,

if you let us know how the notes are, im no expert on maths/physics but I do know all the basics, but wouldn't mind the odd book to brush up before I do any atpls.

[peterpann]

I've been looking at different books for mental arithmatic and have found "speed mathematics" by Bill Handley a good book.

e.g
Speed Mathematics teaches simple methods that will enable you to make lightning calculations in your head–including multiplication, division, addition, and subtraction, as well as working with fractions, squaring numbers, and extracting square and cube roots. Here’s just one example of this revolutionary approach to basic mathematics:

96 x 97 =
Subtract each number from 100.

96 x 97 =
4 3

Subtract diagonally. Either 96—3 or 97— 4.
The result is the first part of the answer.

96 x 97 = 93
4 3

Multiply the numbers in the circles. 4 x 3 = 12.
This is the second part of the answer.

96 x 97 = 9312
4 3

It’s that easy!

[Blinkz]

yea I know how u guys feel, my mental maths isn't amazing. I really need to work on it. Addition and subraction is ok, and even multiplication to an extent but I really suck at division. doh.

[wbryce]

Peterpann,

Is that method flawed, or does it work with all examples? I tried one myself and it gave diffrent answers from the calculator :}

[peterpann]

it works for everything but it uses something called base reference numbers (sounds complicated but the book explains them and it becomes easy - oh and i'm no genious!).
e.g in this example we are using two base reference numbers 20 & 80 and as 20 goes in to 80 four times we can substitue 80 to a 4.)

23 x 87

BR (20 x 4) 23 x 87

both numbers are higher than the reference numbers (i.e 23 is higher than 20 and 87 is higher than 80) so we draw circles above


+3 +7
(20 x 4) 23 x 87=?

now multiply the 3 above the 23 by multiplication factor 4. (3 x 4 = 12

so it now looks like this


+12
+3 +7
(20 x 4) 23 x 87=?

now add 12 to the 87 which gives 99

now multiply 99 by the other base reference number 20

99 X 20 = 1980


(99 x 20 is easy because you do 99 + 99 which gives 198 and then just add a 0 to signify the tenths.)

and then multiply 3 by the 7

99 X 20 = 1980
3 x 7 = 21
= 2001

add them together and done!

so the problem is this

+12
+3 +7
(20 x 4) 23 x 87 = 99
=1980
= 21
=2001


looks a lot to take in but the book is an easy read and explains it far better.....

hope this helps

oh I forgot!

If both numbers in the circles are below the reference number (98 is -2 from a hundred) then when you multiply the numbers in the circles the result you subtract + & - = -

If both numbers in the circles are above the reference number (102 is +2 from a hundred) then when you multiply the numbers in the circles result you add+ & + = +

If one number is above and one is below the reference number (102 is +2 from a hundred but 98 is -2 below) then when you multiply the numbers in the circles the result you add- & - = +

[scottwarnick]

Hi guys and girls,

I have performed a search on this but didn't really get the answer i was looking for.

I have taken the plunge and decided that i'm going to start my ATPL theory but before i do i need to know how best to prepare.

What level of maths and physics do you really need to be able to complete and pass the 14 JAA exams?

Can I understand cocepts as i go along or is it necessary to have a good understanding before you start? I realise that there is a huge amount to cram into your head.... i was just wondering what had worked for others?

I haven't studied either subject in depth since i was at school, however i found the PPL reasonably easy to understand. Anything that went over my head i quickly revised and generraly got to grips with.

Any advice fom current and post atpl''s would be more than welcome

Thank you all very much keep up the good work:)

[Luke SkyToddler]

Well I got them all first time, and my high school major subjects were art, history and classical studies ...

My wife had no trouble with them either, and she based all her school studies around her teenage ambitions to be a fashion designer :ok:

Seriously, all this melodrama about 'what to study before the ATPLs' is highly over rated. If you can add, subtract, multiply and divide then you have all the tools to crack even the most tricky ATPL formulaes you will encounter (i.e. PNR and ETP calcs in ATPL nav for example). Once you've got the notes in hand, or you start attending the classes, then they will teach you all the new skills you need to know. There are of course, some geeks who can seemingly breeze through these things without doing tuppence worth of study and going to the pub every night on ground school, but you'll still be fine even if you learn at the pace of normal mortals, as long as you put the study in before you go to the exams.

The reason people have so much trouble with ATPLs is not the difficulty level of the material, so much as the sheer mind boggling volume of sh!te you have to memorize :{ Unfortunately that isn't something you can prepare for by studying at school. You just have to take the bull by the horns and start trying to learn this stuff, make little notes and mnemonics and summary sheets of all the chapters as you go, and pray you can remember enough of it under exam conditions to scratch a pass.

And the really stupid thing is, that once it's all over and you're flying those airliners, you will use about 0.00001 % of all that knowledge you learned (in fact you will have forgotten most of it within a fortnight of getting the exam pass). The most challenging mental arithmetic I've had to do in my career as a pilot is when I'm trying to convert the price of two bottles of duty free Absolut from Norwegian kroner to pounds, or maybe how much is a 15% tip on a £76.45 restaurant bill :ok: After a couple of years you will give your ATPL notes and practice exams to your mates, sell your nav wheel on ebay, look back and think 'what the hell was all that about'?

[Piltdown Man]

Maths is not really required - so even if you are a duffer, like me, I wouldn't worry. Just read and try to understand how the solutions are arrived at. As for the physics, just read and remember. Having a grounding in these subjects just makes it easier to understand the garbage you will be forced to learn (and then forget). Most of the ATPL schools (or even all) have the ability to teach you what you need in a few minutes flat. Your English skills however (comma!) will prove essential. Because unless you understand the question, you won't be able to answer.

[High Wing Drifter]

Maths wise, I don't see how you can get along without at least understanding trigonometry and transformations.

Physics is largely common sense. Of course, the areas that aren't readily deducible without specific understanding will not be overlooked by the CAA.

My advise, is be able to work things out from first principles. This helped me as I simply could not memorise everything.

To answer your question: Brush up on those basic elements of maths now, deal with the physics as you go. If you can memorise the equations and know how to manipulate them, then you can pretty much forget about trying to remeber answers for a significant volume of the work.

[Piltdown Man]

Are there really that many questions that you have to be a wizz at maths for? Certainly weren't in day (1991). And as for the trig, we are only really talking about very basic stuff. I don't know of any ATPL school who wouldn't be able to get you up to speed PDQ.

[Cloud 99]

HI

Currently doing atpl's with bristol. As everyone else has said, as long as your willing to work at it you do not need masses of mathematical knowledge. Basic formulae and manipulation, probably about comparable to gcse level.

Are you doing distance learning or residential. If you are doing distance learning and finding it hard you can always go for some instruction then, and if your residential the instructors will be on hand. However you should be fine.

Good Luck.

Cloud 99:ok:

[High Wing Drifter]

Are there really that many questions that you have to be a wizz at maths for
No I don't think so. There are really no 'difficult' maths questions. I just listed out two basic skills that I think help greatly. As Cloud 99 said, just a subset of GCSE.

[piper pervert]

I have to say that before starting groundschool i didn't look at any maths or physics revision stuff at all.I hadn't done either subject since gcse days 10 years ago (and i was no good then) but didn't really struggle all that much.Amazing how quickly the basics come flooding back with the right tuition.

All in all nothing to sweat about!

PP

[ATP_Al]

I finished my ATPLs in September last year and I'm with Piltdown Man - you shouldn't worry about the mathematical content of the exams. However, a good standard of English is required to understand what the questions are really asking and hence choose the right answer.

Much of the material in the ATPL syllabus has been simplified so it can be examined using multiple choice papers. As you will often have to learn and accept the JAR answer to a question, rather than the right one, not having too much background knowledge can actually work in your favour. I have a first class degree in biology and found parts of Human performance hard to accept, and I know a licensed engineer who failed the systems exam!

The bottom line is that if you work hard you'll get through!

Good luck,

Al:ok:

[GulfStreamV]

Luke Sky Toddler,

You made my day - thats just the funniest thing I have heard in a long time - I'm not there yet - but I'm sure its wise words indeed.

Kroners to Pounds - Love it!

:D :D


GV

[Callsign Kilo]

Hopefully just about to enter groundschool for my CPL/IR and have been swotting up a little in my maths and physics...its been 7 years since I used any of it!!!

However Im keen to know what I should really be paying attention to??

It is for the APP course at OAT, so any first hand experience would be much appreciated

Many thanks

[no sponsor]

Lean basic algebra and trig for the maths bit. For the physics bit refresh yourself on the gas laws and electrics.

[Callsign Kilo]

And thats for the actual course, not selection??

[no sponsor]

Affirm - can't comment on OATS selection.

[monkeytribe]

Hi all,

Does this new CD-ROM cover what you need to refresh or
(re)learn for the Maths and Physics content on the ATPL subjects?

If not can anyone recommend any other CBT software?


Thanks

OATS MATHS AND PHYSICS CD-ROM LINK (http://www.oatmedia.com/products.asp?cat=12)

[youngskywalker]

I dunno, but I just ordered it too!

Hope it's good, I'm crap at maths big time :0(

[adwjenk]

Hi

Yeah it covers everything you need for the ATPL course!!

There both really good, im doing A-level physics but still got the CD to go over the basics lol.
Im ok at maths i can do it but im not a supper genius at it, but the CDs are great.
I used them for my selection but got carried away with physics and reviesed to much!!!

ADWJENK

[A320sRcool]

Hey no need to worry I was no good at Maths at school - was in bottom class - I just did all 14 subjects in ATPL - You seriously do not need to purchase with extra Physics or Maths tution .All is taught in the manuals - and it will come back to you . SOH CAH TOA dist/spd/time etc
Mainly formuales and turning them around
Hope this gives you added encouragement

[flyingflying]

Hi All
New to this. I'm planning to apply for an ATPL course this year but I'm a bit concerned about my knowledge of maths - it's been over ten yrs since my (quite dodgy) GCSEs. Anyone got advice on what is best way to improve - people have recommened all kinds of stuff, from Lett's revision guides to the Oxford maths CDs to two-day courses from Great Circle but they seem a lot of outlay.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated
Thanks!

[markflyer6580]

Ive got keynotes maths for pilots-you can get it from pooleys.
Ideal if you suck at maths like me:ok:

[EGBKFLYER]

Are you confident with:

Basic addition, multiplication etc
Trigonometry (sine, cosine etc)
Base 60 (degrees, minutes and seconds) calculations
Graph reading
Interpolation/ extrapolation - finding figures from tables or graphs that lie between or beyond the given results
Exponents - x squared or cubed, 10 to the power x etc etc
Basic physics - F=ma, moments, resolution of forces type of thing

If so, don't need to know much more. If not, the 'outlay' might be needed. What about finding a local maths teacher that does private GCSE/ A-level lessons? You don't need anymore than basic stuff and that might be cheaper/ easier.

[jamielatham]

If your unsure about you knowlage of maths, i would suggest takeing a refresher course at a flight school, e.g Oxford Aviation Training (OAT). The advantage of doing it at a Flight School is that they know from experiance what type of subjects within maths to cover extensivly, as they know whats required on the ATPL exams...

Or if you like, OAT kindly offer a cd-rom course. I have the Essential Maths and physics and i personally find these very helpful and easy to understand. I believe these are around £30.

Hope this helps and all the best!


Jay :ok:

[pilgrim flyer]

I started studying for the JAA PPL at the tender age of 43, having left school 28 years previously with a grade 5 CSE (not a typo, they were an exam for us thickies who had failed the 11 plus).

In the interim I'd pulled my socks up and become a university lecturer in an arts based subject. My hatred of Mrs Williams’s maths class and the attendant humiliation had not abated in the interim, nor had my understanding improved. Knowing what I know now I realise that the subject was incredibly badly taught. However, I digress.

Come 2001/2 and the dreaded JAA CPL exams maths again threatened to become my nemesis. My saviour came in the unlikely guise of Hairy Arsed Builder who was doing a bit of a makeover on my flat at that time. HAB had the advantages of being practical, a gliding instructor and also having a degree in engineering which is apparently more about applied maths than making things on a lathe.

So, to answer your query from my perspective, find yourself a good teacher, who understands flying, the practical application of maths, and can teach. If they aren’t Welsh it’s a bonus but not essential.

As an aside, after the exam torture was over, one of my first PPL students was a maths teacher. Thank you god! Anyroadup, one Friday after school I was teaching him diversions and he was really struggling with the mental arithmetic. The wheel had come full circle and I was able to tell him that never in my darkest hours with Mrs Williams did I ever dream I’d get to give a maths teacher such a hard time….

PF

PS If any body comes across any of so those called educationalists who are speaking of re introducing the 11+ then please start polishing the Kalashnikov….

[flyingflying]

many, many thanks everyone!
Your advice is really appreciated!

[Funkie]

Baz at Bristol produced a very straight forward book, which tells you what you need to know and nothing more. Heck, he even shows how you do most of it on the CRP-5!!

Well worth a buy at £18 from memory.

You can order it from BGS.

Best of luck

Funkie

[Impress to inflate]

I left school many years ago with very little up my sleave including a basic grasp of maths. I did my ATPL techs and CPL navs for a rotory ticket at CSE (Oxford) I got by with a crp 5 and 10 fingers and my old boy. Good luck ITI :)

[smith]

you must I repeat must be good at manipulating formulae.

for example

if Pt=Pd+Ps what does Pd equal?

answer Pd=Pt-Ps

for a multiplication example

if t=d/s

what is distance equal to?

Ans d=s x t

In my atpl (residential) class, there are students of differing academic qualities, from graduates to no formal qualifications. The students weak in mathematics struggled with manipulating formulae and geometrey (working out angles without actually measuring them) however most have managed to plunder on and pass the exams.

[Farrell]

Being an out and out moron when it comes to maths and physics, I needed a miracle to get up to ATPL standard.

The OAT Media CDROMs "Essential Maths" and "Essential Physics" are fantastic at just £20 each.

Very clear graphics are used to explain the concepts and the narration is excellent - the guy who does the voiceovers really seems interested in what he's explaining.

However - if anyone from OAT Media gets to read this.........with regards to the Aviation Meteorology CDROM.....you have a female narrator who explains some of the met stuff in a tone of voice that sounds like she would rather be doing something else, anything else in fact, rather than explain meteorology.
You also use the same guy from the Maths and Physics CDROMs on there too - he should be used for everything. He has a great delivery style that says "There. See? Simple."
The girl on the disc could almost be heard to sigh at some points!

[David_Lid Air]

No need to worry :) .. I suck when it comes to math skills :} , but still I went through the exams with a first time pass.


Good luck to you :ok:

[wbryce]

I have a good understanding in basic maths and physics but I feel I suffer in manipulating formulas...My naughty parents took me on holiday the week my maths teacher decided to teach the class this!! grr...

does anyone know a good site that offers a straight forward explanation?

[744FO]

Don't forget that OAT will soon be releasing the part 2's to the Essential Maths and Physics. :ok:

[mcsmithhk]

hi,

does anyone with any experience of the intial assessment procedures at schools like cabair know the rough pass rate for the intial maths and physics exams. it has been years since i studying the stuff and suddenly i have an assessment coming up. It seems like 2 very broad areas to brush up on in such a short time. Also how important are the results to the final decision on whether you are in or not? (bearing in mind the PILAPT profile as well). thanks for you help

[Charlie Zulu]

Before I started my ATPL's I spent a week whilst on night shift going through my Maths and Physics revision from GCSE Bitesize available on the BBC website.

Fantastic for getting back up to speed.

[delta xray]

im studying for my ppl and hope to go all the way up to atpl but im worried that i need to do higher level maths. any advise

[Lou Scannon]

Worry not. You will be expected to reach GCSE level (or whatever they call it these days) but not higher.

[Özcan]

being used to formulas and trigonometry helps but ATPL is pretty basic math and physics, the mathematical tools needed can be obtained and learned pretty quickly just by using google

it's pretty basic in math and physics, the thing about ATPL-theory is that theres alot to remember

[chrisbl]

As Lou said it is GCSE level and that is not too hard these days. The same applies to the Physics requirements.

[inventorfam2004]

I really need helps here. I wanted so much to operate a plane, and I wanted to join the school of flying. But my mathematics isbad. That makes me a bit nervous to join. You see, every dollars counts, regardless of my achievement.

My questoin, does mathemATICS plays essentially in the course?

[inventorfam2004]

I am in a big dilemma here :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: . please help.

I really need helps here. I wanted so much to operate a plane, and I wanted to join the school of flying. But my mathematics isbad. That makes me a bit nervous to join. You see, every dollars counts, regardless of my achievement.

My questoin, does :hmm:mathemATICS:rolleyes: plays essentially in the course?

[flymax]

yes, it does, also phisycs, you need it all the time but not in a deep level of it, but it´s important.

[richie-rich]

flymax is right, but i dont think it would restrict anyones ability to fly.

if you consider yourself hopeless, then maybe you should enrol yourself for few mathematics and physics courses at uni, just to help yourself out during training. afterall, you dont need to hold a bachelors or masters in either discipline to be a pilot. Basic understanding should suffice.

i have an uncle who failed his year 12 mathematics. he retook it next year and now is a captain of A310-300.

all comes down to your basic understanding and how wisely you can utilize it during your career as a pilot.

richie :ok:

[Bug-smasher B]

It really depends on how far you wish to progress through the licences and ratings. For a straight-forward PPL there is not really that much mathematics. You will of course need to know how to add, subract, divide and multiply-all of which can be done on a calculator-and know a few basics like: speed=distance / time etc.. But you are not supposed to depend on an electronic calculator (which is why you buy two :) ), so as part of your PPL training you are taught how to use a Flight computer (basically a slide rule) and this makes it a lot easier.

For CPL's, IR's and anything more advanced, I believe that a better understanding of mathematics is required. Good luck.

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

If your mathematics and physics are bad, then you have a not insurmountable uphill battle.
On the mathematics side of things, mental maths agility will stand you in better stead than a deep understading of Einstein. There are many shortcuts which you can use which will enable you to perform perfectly reasonably as a pilot.
The physics is perhaps a little harder. However, most of what happens in the air can be duplicated by you in the bath tub with a toy boat. Air and water perform very much the same dynamic or static functions around an aerofoil as a hull.
I wouldn't worry too much about it all. The writing of a CV, however is very important. May I respectfully suggest that an unhurried, unworried approach to such matters combined with the use of a spell/grammer checker will impress those whom you wish to employ you to a far greater extent than degrees in, what to many, are obscure sciences.
Good luck.:D

[AerocatS2A]

Just how bad are you at maths?

You will need to be able to add, subtract, divide and multiply. You will likely be able to use a circular slide rule to do this (easy enough once you know how.) You should also be able to manipulate very simple formulas.

Example:

A x B = C

Now if you already know C and A but don't know B, how do you work out B?

C divided by A = B

A common use of the above is with distance and time equations, where speed x time = distance travelled.

Also, once you start flying a jet or high performance turbo prop you will need to be able to multiply by 3 in your head (to work ou a descent profile.) That's about as difficult as it gets in the real world of flying. It may be a little more tricky for the exams, but none of it involves particularly tough concepts.

Don't sweat it, it's not hard, though it can be a distraction trying to work things out while you are flying, luckily modern equipment does a lot of the work for you. But it's still good to do it roughly in your head just to check your equipment is giving good answers!

[Floofy]

It is important to understand and be able to do maths for your gnd training, but for the flying planning - you need to know the 3 & 2 times table. And that is only to work out your descend. The rest of your flight, you must go out and have the most fun you can !!

[RYR-738-JOCKEY]

I would say that you need to be fairly fast in basic calculation. F.ex. during training you will need to calculate required rate of descent on an approach. Lets say you have a groundspeed of 120 kts, which is the same as 2 NM pr minute. When you are 10 NM from the runway you start your descent from 3000 ft, to cross distance 5 not lower than 1500 ft (minimum altitude at this point) . Your rate of descent will be: 5 NM divided by 2 NM pr min = 2,5. 3000 ft - 1500 ft = 1500 ft. 1500 ft divided by 2,5 is 600. So you need to descend from distance 10 with a rate of 600 ft per minute to pass 5 at 1500 ft. I know this was very specific, but this is the kind of stuff you will have to be able to do. On larger aircrafts I would say numerical reasoning, crosschecking the information provided on the displays, will be more important...and of course the 3 times table he he, already mentioned.

[Callsign Kilo]

Mathematically, having a knowledge (and by no means an extensive knowledge) of basic transposition of formula, trigonometry, converting units and manipulating data can be an advantage to you when you are in groundschool

In terms of physics, you will see its use when you study aerodymamics, engines, structures and electrics. Don't panic, none of its rocket science, but an understanding WILL help.

When I started my training I had a similar worry, however before you commit maybe buy a secondary school maths and physics book or even the Oxford Aviation Training range of Maths and Physics interactive CD ROMs which I have heard are good

I would say as well that brushing up on your mental maths is most essential for life on the flightdeck.

[low n' slow]

I've allways had a problem with maths, especially mental maths under pressure. I still have this problem but I know it and therefor I can plan ahead for it. In the long run, I can make shure that I know the methods that are the easiset and that I know which type of calculations that will be made.
In the short term, it means that I make shure that I have all calculations done way before I need them. Descent calculations for example I try to complete just after leveling off for cruize and all other calculations to be done before the descend.

As for groundschool, if you can handle addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, basic algebra and handling of formulae, basic trigonomitry (SIN, COS and TAN), you should be well off. Navigation and aerodynamics is mostly mathematics and physics and it really helps if you can handle your numbers here.

Another thing that has helped me is to learn to see what is "reasonable" or not. This is not allways something to take for granted, but it will if you know how, help you in avoiding major mistakes by letting you see the bigger picture and get all the nubers into a context (such as choosing which direction to go to get to a destination, north or south...).

Hope this helps.
/LnS

[bg187]

Hi am currently in college. I've already got my GCSE Maths do i need A-Level Maths to become a pilot??? Not sure if its neccassary..............

[scroggs]

Had you looked just a couple of topics below the top of the page, you'd have found another one titled 'Mathematics' in which your question had already been answered. Had you done a search, you'd have found this thread (which your post is now merged into) which was last active only yesterday. Had you checked the Archive Reference Thread at the top of the page, you'd have found several links of use to you.

Some of the things we look for in new pilots are resourcefulness, initiative, observation and an eye for detail. These things would seem to be lacking in some of our newer members!

Scroggs

[dxbpilot]

Hi, i'm currently teaching myself physics for the ATPL's i am starting in November as I did not do this subject at school. My question is how in depth is the physics and maths involved ? If I know the basics will this be sufficiant ?

thanks

[neilia]

Hi there,
Yes, it's all at a basic level. Some of the things to look at are...
- manipulating algebra (e.g. a*b = c becomes a = c/b )
- resolving forces
- trigonometry
- electronics - resistance, capacitance, reactance, inductance, power
- moments
- basic understanding of concepts like work, power, torque, inertia
- mass and density
- gas laws

Um, brain gone blank. Hope that helps a bit.

[Martin4]

Thought id post a small review on the OAT Media CD-ROM's, I bought 'Part 1' of both 'Essential Maths' and 'Essential Physics'

I havent looked much at the Physics one yet (Leaving that untill I have got the basic mathematics out of the way ;)).

The maths one is great, there are 32 lessons covering the following:

Number & Algebra:
General Number Work
Parts of a Whole
Use of Symbols
Equasions
Formulae
Working with Fractions
Working with Decemals
Working with Percentages
Working with Radios
Symbols, Roles & Manipulation
More Decemals & Fractions
More Percentages
Symbols, Rules & Manipulation 2
More Equasions
More ForumulaeShape, Space & Measure:
Angles
Circles
Permimiter
Volume
Measures
More Angles
Triangles
Area
Right Angled Triangles 1 (Pythagoras' Theorem)
Right Angled Triangles 2 (Sin, Cos & Tan)
Measures 2
Vectors
Perimiter, Area & Volume
Further Trigonometry 1 (3D Work)
Further Trigonometry 2 (Sine & Cosine Rules)
Further Trigonometry 3 (More Sin & Cos)
Vectors 2So as you can see there is a wide range of subjects you can chose from and they each come with a test in which you can chose how many questions you would like to answer on that given lesson. I havent worked my way through all the lessons yet but if the first few is anythign to go by then each lesson will last about a hour! so great value for money if you ask me.

The Physics topics are:

Electric Charge
What is Charge?
More about Charge
Flow of Charge
Electrostatic Case StudiesFundamentals of Electricity
Current
Voltage
Power
Introduction Alternating CurrentElectricity in the Home
Household Electricity
Power and Energy in the HomeElectrical Circuits
Electrical Components
Ohm's Law
Conductors & Insulators
Components Transfer Energy
Series & Parallel Circuits
Electronic ChoicesMagnetism
Magnetism
Electricity & Magnetism
The Motor Effect
Electromagnetic IntroductionAnd thats only Part 1 of each subject, you can get Part 2 of Physics already and Part 2 of Maths is still in the making, so theres lots to learn if you have the time and motivation.

Cheers,
Martin

[Stall Inducer]

Many people make a big issue of needing rocket science Maths and Physics to become a pilot. In short you don't - if you attend a reasonably good ground school they will teach you everything you need to know, and refresh the basics as you go along and also the tricks and short cuts to work out the answers. For example RYR 738 gives an example of a requirement to work out the rate of decent for an approach - in reality in commercial aviation most approaches are based on a 3 degree slope where by multiplying you ground speed by 5 you will come out with the same answer as 738 gives by using a longer process.
On a practicle scale day to day I use my 3 times table to work out track miles required in descent add a few miles if you've got a tailwind minus a few if you've got a headwind - it's not an in exact science so an ability to look at numbers and think I'm at 40,000ft I'm expecting to start descent around 120nm out means you won't find yourself overhead your destination still at cruise altitiude just because you mis programmed the FMC.
Comming from someone who's not great at Maths I really didn't find the ATPL exams to be a problem (just scrapped a 'C' grade at GCSE)

[ghost_rider20]

Hello everyone just wondering how many of you taking/or have taken your ATPL's have found a particular 'maths brush up guide' helpful to working out various equations/Algebra, Trig e.c.t. As I am looking at taking the exams in the not so distant future, got my C in maths at GCSE level, but that was a while ago, and have recently finished my apprentiship in light vehicle engineering, more physics than maths!!! which im fine with, but the trig e.c.t i KNOW is going to need brushing up!!
Any help on where to find various publications in this area would be greatly appreciated:ok:

Lee

[cloudz]

I am finding OAT media's essential Math's & Physics on CD=ROM very helpful in prep for the ATPL's.

www.oatmedia.com (http://www.oatmedia.com) delivered to your door.

Otherwise have a look on amazon and try "mental maths for pilots" or "Math for dummies" series is also very good.

Hope this helps.

Cloudz

[captainloulou]

Hi all,
I have actually a different view regarding the mathematics. I have about a spare year before starting my training (this is due to saving money!). I had a thought about brushing up my mathematics and am actually perparing to graduate for a A level in both maths and physics. The reason for that is that at the end it could save me 30k as with a A level I can apply for a sponsorship with an airline (which would also guarantee me a job after graduating). On top of that I think that having the best bases you can before starting the training is worthwile as it will probably my understanding. Finally the investment for a A level distance learning course in mathematics is between 150 and 250 quids. I do not know if I am doing the right thing but one thing I am sure is that it can't be bad! Therefore I would recommend this route to whoever has a spare year and want to improve maths and physics before starting.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

From my experience there is no need to do A-Levels in maths or physics unless you specifically want to and have a flair for both. It certainly won't stop you passing ATPLs' or bar you from a flying career. I didn't take maths or any science beyond GCSE.

The maths required in certain parts of the ATPL course can get tricky if you haven't got A-Level standard maths up your sleeve but it just requires a bit of effort and concentration to get your head round the principles involved. I found the standard of maths teaching at BGS was far superior to anything I ever encountered under the national curriculum!

Maths on the flight deck of a jet is mostly limited to some basic multiplication and division, and involves 'ball park figures' rather than precision. Personally I found myself doing far more mental maths under far more pressure during CPL nav in a light twin. Also bear in mind that while mental maths is often required in the air, the maths required on the ground in airline ops - fuel conversions for instance - will always be cross-checked using a calculator, as ball park isn't good enough in those cases! There really isn't too much to work up a sweat over. I find the hardest calculation of the day is trying to add up the duty hours of the crew after 4 sectors at 3am in the morning. I regularly resort to using my fingers at that point!:bored:

[thekkoot]

Where i will find the model question papers or syllabus for maths and physics to prepare for atpl course. please help me ..

[ghost_rider20]

Just wondering how tough the maths is at the ATPL's, might sound as if im contradicting myself, but, im very good at physics, have done 3 years at college (light vehicle engineering and production) and it has taught me so much about hydraulics, engines, forces at work on vehicles, and we done various projects on working out fuel consumption e.c.t blah blah and so much more, im very technical minded, and im not s#$t at maths but could be better! Just wondering if any of you guys doing them/or already done them, hired a tutor e.c.t to brush up things learnt at school,(which had been forgotten) and get up to speed working out various calculations, am sure i'll be fine but thought id ask as its bugging me, and before anyone says it, i don't doubt my own abillity.

Cheers guys/girls Lee :ok:

[mcgoo]

It's not very tough at all, about GCSE standard.

[BlueRobin]

So long as you can re-arrange simple equations, e.g. A= 2BC/DEF² and can do trig, you should be okay.

Probably the most complicated thing I have done in the last week is to work out the turn radius of an aircraft with 45 deg bank at 200kts then work out how long it took (2π!)

[Finals19]

Try the Keynotes range of books - there is one for Mathematics and it contains most of what you need to know for the ATPL.

I am not that hot at maths myself, and had a thorough read of it. A lot on Trigonometry, geometry, manipulation of equations and Algebra, but all in all even I found it workable (its been years since I did anything mathematical)

[mrgaviates]

BlueRobin,
How long did it take?
MRG

[BlueRobin]

Longer than I thought, it's been a while since I had to do 2πr! :O

BTW, tan theta = v² / gr

[dewarg]

Have a look at this web site <http://williams.best.vwh.net/avform.html#LL>.

[hakim]

what kind of math do you have to do in your head? or can you use calculators? can you use calculators in the tests (practical and theoretical)?

[BlueRobin]

Yes you can, scientific are okay, but programmable are not.

[potkettleblack]

Something like a Casio Fx-82MS should do you. ASDA or Tesco should do them cheaper than somewhere than WH Smith and you should get change from a tenner. Has all the trig functions and also degrees, minutes and seconds which was invaluable for getting me through GNAV and correcting silly adding errors. Also has a nice hard plastic case.

[BORN4THESKYS]

Yes, about GCSE standard is true to say! The very fact that you are learning to do something which you really want to do as a profession will make the learning a whole lot easier trust me.

Good luck if you choose to pursue an aviation career

[hakim]

how can i prepare myself for the math? is there anypoint in learning the stuff from http://williams.best.vwh.net/avform.html#LL in advane?

[matt_hooks]

As an aside, you can forget anything you ever learned about real world hydraulics and so on. What you have to learn to pass the exams is the answer that the JAA examiner expects you to give to a given problem, often significantly different to what actually happens in the real world.

I have a degree in Aero Eng and had to unlearn a load of stuff and replace it with the JAR version of the same stuff. I guess there's a limit to what they can expect you to understand but it can get a bit confusing for those of us with a reasonable understanding of real world physics, engineering and so on.

As for the maths, I think what's said above pretty much covers it. If you can count to twelve without having to take your shoes and socks off :} and are fairly proficient with a calculator then you should have absolutely no problems!

[Peelay]

ive just enrolled on a college course to re-take my maths gcse. i got a "d" and need a "c" to begin my career. my girlfriend is a teacher and she said that to pass a gcse maths exam now you need 17%, when i took the exam 7 years ago you needed 45% to pass. in a way i hope shes right about this but it doesnt really say much if i pass with say 30% this time round as aposed to my higher mark last time yet still get a better grade. yet another money making scam!

[BlueRobin]

I did GCSEs almost 15 years ago (heck!) and the grade scheme was something like A-G with the lowest grade threshold being about the low-teens mark, approx 12%. All you had to do is turn up and answer the easy questions for "pass", yet one or two still failed to do that. More important Peelay is where the threshold for a "C" grade currently stands. It used to be about 65% but may have come down in the following years. Anyway good luck. Well done on going back to college and putting the hard work in, too many try to cut corners these days. :)

[JB LFPN FLYER]

Hello guys ,

Concerning the calculators well in France the maximum you can have is the Texas Instrument TI-30XIIB . They even rent you one for the exam . But you know ATPL doesn't require lot a complicated Maths . Just try to be smooth and quick on mental calculation and should be ok .

Regards JB

[Crispywings]

Ghost rider 20

I remember some years ago the London Guildhall University, who ran/run ATPL ground school published a free book with the various types of maths & physics type questions found in the ATPL syllabus. It had excellent worked examples of the questions (with answers as well). I think this was designed as pre-course reading or a “taster” for those people thinking about starting a course.

I think I may still have a copy tucked away somewhere. Subject to me contacting the London Guildhall University and gaining approval, I could scan it in and email it to you. (If I can find it)!!

Of course you could always phone them up and ask for a copy.

PM me.

Chrispy.

[Peelay]

More important Peelay is where the threshold for a "C" grade currently stands. :)

my girlfriend is saying that to pass or get a "C" grade today i need 17% which is a big difference to the 65% you needed and the 45% i needed when i/we took the exam.
Im actually looking forward to doing it because my maths has always let me down and now i have a reason to put the work in plus im hoping it will put me in good stead for any exams i have to endure if i get through to selection.
cheers for the words of encouragment.

[garywoodrow]

hey, I did not know where to post this so move if need be.

Tomorrow i am sitting my first AS Level maths exam and up to now i have really struggled, I have nearly started crying in frustration because i could not do a practice exam :ugh: :sad:.

I am thinking about dropping the subject and just carry on with ICT double and general studies and still gain 3 A-Levels. Is it a good idea to drop maths or is it needed if i want to become an airline pilot?

[GrahamK123]

Maths is only needed at A-Level if you want to apply to any of the quasi-sponsorships out there.. e.g the excel/Thomas cook ones run at OAT. It is not officially needed to be an airline pilot. It's best to do A level subjects you enjoy and are reasonably good at. An 'E' grade maths a-level is (fairly obviously) not as good as a 'B' grade ICT a-level for example.

Good luck in your exam

G

[Felix Saddler]

Tomorrow i am sitting my first AS Level maths exam and up to now i have really struggled, I have nearly started crying in frustration because i could not do a practice exam :ugh: :sad:.

I am thinking about dropping the subject and just carry on with ICT double and general studies and still gain 3 A-Levels. Is it a good idea to drop maths or is it needed if i want to become an airline pilot?

Hi im in my second year (A2) and im taking maths, physics and chemistry. Maths is probably the one i find the most difficult but with alot of graft its do-able.
A few tips, I failed my january AS exam last year but resat it in the summer and overall managed to get an A. So go back over C1 whilst doing C2 as they are fairly similar and make sure you don't get behind with stats as its the easiest to boost up your overall mark. However what you must ask yourself is, are you prepared to put in that much work because if your not then forget it as it will just waste your time. Maths is a strong A-level to have if you can manage it and the feeling of achievement is great.

As for your other subjects unfortunately general studies isnt accepted as an A-level by any/most universities and you will be extremely limited as to what you can do with an A-level in ICT.


Hope this helps,

Feel free to PM me.

Felix

[Groundloop]

I am thinking about dropping the subject and just carry on with ICT double and general studies and still gain 3 A-Levels.

I think you will find VERY few people count General Studies as an A-level. To a lot of people you will only end up with 2.

[scruggs]

I think you will find VERY few people count General Studies as an A-level. To a lot of people you will only end up with 2.

Very true, you only need to look at entrance requirements for some university courses. "General Studies not accepted" is quite often the case.

eP.

[Kerosine]

If you have any questions in regard to maths theory/understanding feel free to PM me. I'm no genius, but I did A level.

The things about maths is, the techers expect that once you understand an idea, you can apply it to any situation, when in reality, it's all about practice and trying as many different examples before your test.

I would say if you don't understand something, ask over and over again, after school, at lunch, online, friends. You don't have enough time to be 'embarassed' or have a misplaced sense of pride. (don't take offence, this was me 2 years ago!)

Good luck, and remember Maths is one of the most highly regarded Alevels for a reason.

Dave

[Kerosine]

I sent off my application to UCAS last night (just in time!).

After trawling Uni's to find Aerospace Eng courses, while maybe not what you want to do, you find that they do not accept general studies for the following reasons;

They are a top uni, highly reputable (Manc, Liver, Sheff etc).

The course is science/maths based (Medicine, Engineering, pure Sciences etc)

The course is not a 'soft subject' (Media Studies, Kite Flying Studies etc).


These are my observations after 2 years of Uni applications, so obviously are not the black and white.

With Maths and IT you stand in good stead.

Cheers

Dave

[garywoodrow]

Well im having a bad day, I got my results for my A-Level January exams today and I got two A's in ICT but a U in maths. My teacher wasnt very happy about the maths and has kicked me off the course, does anyone have any idea if i still stand a chance in making it to being a pilot without A-Level Maths? I'm panacking now and feel like a failure :{ :ugh:

I have already read around and see that most places don't require maths but will employers / RAF choose someone with maths over me?

Sorry for the depressing post but im lost at the moment, don't know what I should do but I wont let go of my dream... :rolleyes:

[vectis lady]

dont give up, i cant advise if you will need maths but if you do there are lots of other options than completing the course at college

i totally stuffed up all my exams at college and was kicked out so i did them all via distance learning and got much better grades than i ever would have done.

also have you spoken to your tutor and explained how important this is to you, one slip up isnt the end of the world you can always re-sit in june

[SingSong]

It may prevent your getting onto one of the mentored pilot schemes some airlines offer (via OAT/CABAIR/CTC/FTE etc..) as it would appear you'll only have a single A-Level in ICT(unless you are doing other A-levels), but it won't prevent you from obtaining a pilots license via self sponsorship I'm assuming you achieved a good GCSE grade in maths to get onto a maths A-Level course anyway.

[garywoodrow]

ICT will give be 2 A-Levels because im doing double so i think i have the minimum for cabair but i don't think i will be accepted into it anyway because others will have maths. Also i cannot re-sit in june because my teacher will not allow me to.

Thanks for the replies though.

Vectis, about this distance learning, i have never heard of it before, do you mind giving me a little insight into it. thanks

[VFE]

If it is not too late my arse would be down that school pleading with your teacher to overturn the decision to kick you off the course. Explain your career plans and include evidence such as ATC membership, flying experience and any other relevant stuff which will demonstrate your commitment. My thoughts are that one slip up should not equate to termination however, if your coursework thus far has been poor due to lack of effort on your part then you cannot really do any more than pledge a renewed and sustained effort should they grant you a replacement.

Lack of A-Level maths will not exclude you from obtaining a commercial pilot licence through self sponsorship (the level of maths involved is only GCSE level) however if you're looking into an RAF scholarship or sponsored commercial route then you need to get that A-Level maths otherwise face inevitable early rejection in the application processes.

Speak to your parents, teacher and then headmaster ASAP.

VFE.

[Localiser]

Please don't worry.

I'm a professional pilot on big jets and totally messed up my A-levels. I too got a U in maths and got booted off the course. However, I did go onto to do a degree which shows I learnt my lesson!

Keep at it and put it behind you... :ok:

[MajorYaw]

If you're just doing your A-Levels now, you're what, 18? Relax. If you can't get back in this year, complete the A-Levels you are doing and rejoin next year for the other one. You have all the time in the world. I'm 29 and am just trying to get into this game. Just start planning, instead of making rash decisions and hasty assumptions about what is and isn't possible.

[SingSong]

while it may cost some money, I'm sure you can find somewhere else to sit your exam in June (or even next January) your teacher can only prevent you from taking the course at your school/college not sitting the exam. Not living in england I'm not certain you can do this there but you can here, I would assume you can find somewhere else which lets you sit the A-Level exam. It's best to call your A-Level examination board and find out if there are any places where you can sit the exams without being affiliated to a school/college. It's worth a try if you feel you can achieve a grade in maths.

[londonmet]

GW,

Think of this way -

1) U at Maths is clearly not as good as an A but hey who really cares if you now move on and do things to show you've learnt from your f++k up.
2) I can only speak for one of the aforementioned schemes but they certainly won't look at you as a failure if you move on.

[Chems]

So seen as were on the subject, slight thread hijack, I have 4 A Levels (ICT, Design Tech, Geography and Law) and am hoping to join the flying industry in some guise, either RAF or go to one of these so affordable schools to get an ATPL. Will my lack of A Level maths make it harder?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

ICT, Design Tech, Geography and Law

None of the above would I consider to be a real A-level. Despite the fact that I have an A in A level Geography and (I think) General Studies.

Show me an A Level in English, Maths, Physics, Chemistry and I'll maybe think there is half a brain cell there. Even then I would expect an A or B grade these days as standards have collapsed.

My disregard is considered. With flying your training, your experience and your personality count. Count.

Don't worry unduly about your school grades.

Good luck,

WWW

[Chems]

I have to agree, they were quite easy. I got ABBC. I just didnt fancy all that work when it wasnt required strictly.

Since leaving school thou Ive done lots of stuff for my CV and have a good personality I think so hopefully that will count.

Thanks for the advice.

[garywoodrow]

So ICT & ICT Double are not considered real A-Levels? The head of the college told me before i had taken them that ICT Double was 2nd hardest to Physics with only 3% achieving an A grade. :confused: I also do Critical Thinking for A-Level but i know it isnt really a propper one lol :}

Im going to try get back on this maths course tomorrow, i hope he will let me :ugh:.

[Chems]

Try and get your parents involved as well, as thats sure to help motivate the school.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Cant understand why anyone gives a brass monkey's about their school grades.

Flying schools don't care what school grades you got, they just want to see the color of your money.

Get a frozen ATPL, go instructing for a couple of years until you have 1000 TT and no airline is going to care what school grades you got either.

I scraped through school with mediocre grades in a load of crap non-maths and non-science subjects like music and history (back in New Zealand) and then went to do an arts degree which I totally screwed up and failed so badly that the university banned me from re-applying to finish the course.

I've been flying for 12 years now and done a few big interviews including Easyjet, Air Mauritius, several UK turboprop and bizjet operators, and also Cathay Pacific which is supposed to be the hardest interview in the world, and no one's ever even ASKED about my school grades let alone given me any grief about them.

The way it works in this business is that jobs are dished out first of all to all the management pilots' kids, and their kids' mates. After that it's according to whose dad has been in the Freemasons / Squadron leader in the RAF / drinking buddy in the Conservative Club bar for the longest. After that, they go to the guys who've been hanging around the local flying club the longest and kissing the ass of the local chief pilot when he pops in to take his warbird for a Friday afernoon jolly. Once they've exhausted those lists of potential candidates, they start calling people from the CV pile in utterly random order. If they're really organized, they've told the kid that works in ops to arrange the CV pile into some kind of order of who's got the most hours and relevant flying experience - and then of course that kid has put his own CV and all his mates' ones on the top of the pile anyway :hmm:

Honestly man get some life experience and get some hours on light aircraft, and no airline is going to give a single solitary rat's @rse about what you did at school, I guarantee it.

*Footnote to the above - if you have a pattern of multiple screw-ups and failures of your ATPL subjects and your CPL and IR flight tests, then yes you CAN expect to be given a hard time at interview. So get over the school thing, and work like you've never worked before when you start doing relevant stuff like actually learning to fly.

[shaun ryder]

I suggest that you take the above post with a pinch of salt because it is completley flawed in every respect with regards to the nepotism rubbish. I am not sure whether this happens in your native NZ LST? Perhaps it does? If your theory is correct, tell me why the UK airlines welcome pilots like yourself over home grown talent? After 12 years of flying they must have been really desperate eh?
If your Daddy flys jets he will get you a job? Random CV selection please! This definately does not happen for the airline I work for here in England.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Chill out Shaun it's called 'taking the piss'. Those who know me are well aware of my tendency for vast hyperbole and wild exaggeration with everything I say and do.

Although with my serious hat on, I'd say my highly scientific analysis of recruiting policies has at least 20% worth of truth in it, for a couple of the companies I've worked for (and yes one of them's in the UK).

But I meant everything I said about the school grades, honestly, 100%. As long as the guy gets some decent marks at flying school and a few flying hours under his belt, then none except the harshest employers is going to hassle him at interview about 'A' level maths.

[anotherspaceman]

Luke


The way it works in this business is that jobs are dished out first of all to all the management pilots' kids, and their kids' mates. After that it's according to whose dad has been in the Freemasons / Squadron leader in the RAF / drinking buddy in the Conservative Club bar for the longest. After that, ............


So which of the above were you? :p

[planecrazy.eu]

I have been there too. Double IT A'level and poor maths and science.

The verdict

Civil = No problems with self sponsorship, however schemes like Flybe MAPS and other mentored schemes prefer you to have 2 of Maths, Physics, Science or English to really be considered. CTC Require two A'Levels from most subjects, inc ICT/IT, but they are going to prefer Science, Maths and English, same as they prefer a degree but dont say it.

Mil = Again, to be a pilot, from what i can make out, if you dont have maths, science or english you are at a disadvantage when applying to be an Officer, Flight Crew or other technical trades.

So i would say, no you havn't messed up, your young enough to go back and take the subjects you need and move on. At 22 i have had to, so at 17 i am sure there are no issues, you could get your A' and a degree by the time you get to my age, and all i have is IT subjects and Business. I am taking Mechanical Engineering BEng and doing three alevels.

Your qualifications however in most cases just get you a foot in the door. Remember all the RAF Battery Tets, Personality Tests and whatever else they do. Your personality will also play a part in getting that job.

[planeshipcar]

I have to agree with above -

To be a commercial pilot you don't need to have any qualfications as such.

There is nothing stopping anyone from entering a small flying school to gain their PPL and then onto a AtPL theory (some schools ask you to complete a maths questions booklet), (I also know of a few other that just require a PPL) and then once you've got your ATPLs it is irrelevent to flying schools how many GCSEs or A-levels you have.

If you go the integrated route the minimum requirement is 5 GCSEs at C+ for most schools. Once your on the programme you are pretty much sorted and it's your money for a type rating such as GECAT that will be the next qualification needed.

CTC ask for 2 A-levels at C, some airlines 3 and that is the maximum.

Mentored schemes are beginning to ask for Maths or science even economics in 1 A-level and may be another 1 or 2 subjects, but to be honest if you can just get on to an integrated at FTE or Oxford you are going to be forking out the same money with the same bank as the mentored trainees. They don't even have a secure job at the end. You at least have a choice of airlines. At the moment the market is pretty good - if you can finance - there are not many, if any sponsorships.

So to answer the question.

May make it hard for a mentored scheme, but for CTC you'd have a perfect straight A in ICT, which is a science subject. This looks good as it not AAE or AAU, because you haven't completed the full A-level, so you have a neat and simple AA. Perfect score in the subjects you completed!

This may seriously be to your favour even with mentored schemes which generally ask for CC in two A-levels including a science eetc.

To an integrated having 2 A grades at A-level and 5 GCSE will look a lot better than 2 B and E if you have to substitute work on ICT for your A-level in Maths.

Its up to you, but at the end of the day if you already have 5 GCSE at grade C in the core and are going to have two good A-levels, entering flying school should be no problem.

For RAF

I personally would see if I could do an AS in Maths or improve my AS grade and complete full A-levels in ICT with As. However I think you may need a degree anyway. So your A-levels won't mean as much as what you end up with your degree


Good luck mate - remember its money that's the real qualification in the training business!;) :zzz: :8 :rolleyes: :cool: :ok: :p

[FrayCampbell608]

I have poor A-Levels and none of the grades i have are in maths or sciences. Im currently doing a Degree however which i hope to get a 2:1 which is meant to compensate for this.
If you were allowed on the Maths A-Level course, youmust be capabel of achieving a resonable degreee, if they dont let you back on, opportunities of Maths foundations or Night Schools do exist!! Kepp trying. I wish i could redo my A-Levels.

[future captain]

Some one has mentioned, that you can retake the maths at a different college. But where the problem comes is that, if you had a U, the college won't take you on, so even though so can retake, where are you going to learn the new topics?

I really doubt double ICT is second only to physics. Chill out mate. Its not the end of the world. I had fairly poor Alevels in Biology, Chemistry and Geography. Geography got me a good enough grade but the other two were DD. Im at uni atm, doing computer science.

The schemes ask for alevels of high standard, but so long as you have strong enough GCSE (A's and B's english math science etc) you will be ok, the ATPL stuff as far as i can see, is GCSE standard, anything thats not, im sure you'll pick it up. You may not be able to apply for the schmes, but if your dream is to be a pilot, nothing stopping you the self funded way, the schemes are self funded anyways!

[ORATC 1E]

seeing as my performance in the old maths department and the physics part could do with a kick start, does anyone know of anywhere that holds a few day course for brush up on the south coast? Im hopefully starting my ATPL somehwhere this year, it's just a case of getting through aptitude testing etc, and then having sound background knowledge of the above to cope with the work......would really appreciate replies as i currently have multiple bruising to my head from banging it repeatedly on the desk!! cheers

[chlong]

why not try the oxford aviation cd roms for physics and maths as i like you wasnt getting anywhere and they were a godsend. just look at oxford aviation website and follow the link.

[HomerJay]

theres a book, maths and phsyics for pilots. would be a good starting point. il be getting it before I start the atpl exams

[Keith.Williams.]

At EPTA we start every course with a preparation week (Week Zero). It covers Maths, all of the functions of the CRP5 plus some basic physics theory. There is limit to what can be achieved in a week, but everyone who has done it has said that it was a great help.

It is primarily for people who are starting the course, but people who are just thinking about doing ATPL training can also do it. It is provided free of charge even if you haven't booked any training with EPTA.

You will of course need arrange and pay for your own accomodation in the Bournemouth area, but you pay EPTA nothing.

The Week Zero courses take place during the first week of every alternate month. The next one is in May.

If you want to know more just PM me or ring me on 01202 581122 during weekday working hours.

[WALSue]

What sort of level is required? I have degree level maths but did that 10 years or so ago

[2close]

There is nothing in the ATPL syllabus that cannot be achieved with a basic knowledge of mathematics and physics.

I have, from MANY years back, no more than a GCE O Level in Maths and a CSE (shows my age!) in Physics and managed with no problems...........but I am fortunate enough to be quite sharp at mental arithmetic (mis-spent youth playing darts in pubs).......so even after 10 years your degree level maths will stand you in more than good stead.

HTH

2close

[EGCC4284]

http://www.flightstore.co.uk/keynotes_for_pilots_maths_physics_for_pilots.pilot.books/use.id.10.item_id.504.dept.12.dept_l2.62.dept_l3.67/

[paco]

I have the Physics 1 & 2 plus the IR Cooms one taking up space round here - you can have them for £20 inc postage (in UK). Just PM me.

phil

[PDR1]

That rather depends on what degree. If by "degree level maths" you mean you're a maths grad then you can stop worrying - pilots need arithmetic and some trig, but that's about it. If you mean "I have maths from an engineering/science degree" then the same applies. But if you mean "I had good enough maths GCSEs to get me onto a Media Studies, fine art or sociology degree" then have a look at a decent book like the ones recommended in this thread and form your own opinion!

PDR

[double_barrel]

Does anyone have any comments on TheProPilot on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCh48QjK5BvMkIHeljWkbOBA

I have looked at a few videos and they seem excellent. I have no idea what the business model is!

[parkfell]

Maths / Physics. If you coped with 'O' level / GCSE / standard grade ~ NAT5?

That is the depth required. Basic arithmetic and a bit of the old SIN COS TAN.

Physics ~ Boyle's Law. Charles' Law in the Met.

You need to enjoy numbers as that is what the actual job (airline) has a lot to do with. Not to mention TEAM player etc etc

[Alex Whittingham]

The Pro Pilot business model? Well the videos are all stolen from Oxford (now CAE) with the logos overwritten and therefore they cost very little. Let them run on you tube, notice CAE's lawyers don't seem to care, keep letting them run, scoop advertising revenue. Simple.

[double_barrel]

The Pro Pilot business model? Well the videos are all stolen from Oxford (now CAE) with the logos overwritten and therefore they cost very little. Let them run on you tube, notice CAE's lawyers don't seem to care, keep letting them run, scoop advertising revenue. Simple.

Ah. I see. That is not nice. Amazing the can get away with it. Is there a legitimate way to access this material? - I don't especially want to sign-up for a uniform and pile of books!