What helicopter to chose ?

[jetflite]

Hey,
I've got a couple of questions regarding Helicopters in the field of "Corporate" or Private work Eg: Someone with the cash to splash on a helicopter for there own private use but claim on tax etc etc. . The question is regarding what type of helicopter R44 or B206. . . As i have a person interested in branching into aviation with there own helicopter, so i'm trying to gather as much information on this field as possible to put something together for them...your views, experiences anything... greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
:ok:

[papa68]

jetflite,

I've seen threads along similar lines to this before.

My suggestion is (if you want a sensible answer) to be far more specific in defining what you're going to use it for, where, money available etc etc. There are plenty of ppruners out there who will be far more qualified than myself to answer the actual question but unless you more clearly define the "lefts and rights of arc", you're going to be inundated with information, much of it redundant.

The more information you provide, the better the response is likely to be.

Hope this helps,

P68:D

[bullshitproof]

Hi their if you have got £300 k to spend and arround £25,000 a year for maintainance a jet ranger every time.

[jetflite]

P68, i understand what you saying, appologies for not being so descriptive...
he's looking at paying no more than around $500-600'000 for a chopper and it's usage would be from 300-500 hours a year. . ranging from local flights from farm to farm to longer hauls from QLD to Sth NSW, Melbourne etc.. I was originally looking at R44, but now i'm leaning towards a B206. . :ok:

[deeper]

If the "guy" nets over a billion a year he must have someone who can figure out what he "needs". Obviously not you. What an inane post.:suspect:

And it's "helicopter" not "chopper". I don't Think your a pilot

[nigelh]

The cheapest turbine to operate HAS to be an Agusta Bell 206 as you can get spares for less than half the price of Bell parts, or even cheaper !!!:ok: :ok: ( in fact outside of USA and Canada you can fit Agusta parts onto Bell helicopters ) I would say you can operate one , if you have access to these parts, for less than an R44.

[jetflite]

Deeper, grow the F:mad: CK up and stop acting like a jealous Kid, you offered no advice on my topic but took time out of your busy non pilot life to sling mud at someone who is trying to obtain information from more experienced people....(and trying not to offend anyone)

Any way. . .:)

I'm asking people in the industry who are more experienced than i am. . and am willing to listen to everyones views and opinions, i figured this is a good place to gain those perspectives from people around the globe, The "Guy" does have someone to work it out for him and it's happens to be myself, because i work for him, but buying "HELICOPTERS" is not my field as i am a Pilot not a sales agent, I am not here to offend people and sling mud... but merely to obtain information from people who have information to share. To those who have, it has been very helpful... and please continue to do so...
Looks like i'm now leaning towards a B206...any more help is greatly appreciated,

Cheers,:ok:
JF

[uncle ian]

I've flown and operated 206 206L 500 R44 Squirrel & Gazelle in that price bracket.

I would rate them all for different reasons:

R44 is cheap and perfectly adequate,

206 is cheap and more than adequate,

206L is fairly cheap and very comfortable, nice to fly,

500 is lots of fun up front but hell in the back,

squirell is nice to fly, comfortable, but not at all cheap

gazelle is loads of fun to fly but may be dear to run down under.

If you need charter revenue (for tax purposes) 206, 206L os squirrel are best.

I hope this is helpful. PM me if you need more.

[belly tank]

Jetflite.
if you can get your wealthy boss to add some digits to the account:eek: , then i think something like a 109 grand or an S76 would be a real treat:ok: , i just cant seem to digest why and if he is making that sort of cash he would invest a small amount on personal travel.....correct me if im wrong but if i was making 1 bill per annum i deffinately wouldnt be buying an R44,:8 jetranger or an EC120

[B Sousa]

You chose two aircraft R44 or B206. Based on other threads you see here and the rest of the forums out there, I think you can tell that most anything with an R in front are threads posted about the crash in which they were involved.
Jet Ranger is the way to go.
Of course there are other options and you should look at what exactly the aircraft will be used for and the terrain in which it will be used. You may want to up that from a Jet Ranger to a Long Ranger.

[cyclic_fondler]

Jetflite,

You say that you are a pilot. Are you looking for a helicopter to buy for the owner to fly or will you be doing any of the flying? If you are, why not persuade the owner to get something that you'd like to fly ;)

Just a thought !!!!

[jetflite]

Thanks for the responses, all very valid comments. The reason the boss isn't going all out on a 109 or S76 (although i'm pushing for that) is because it's not for his everyday travel, it more incorporates with his business and applies to clients, and most flights shall be rather short, and spending up too or over $1mill means a long wait for returns and profit, as this is obviously not a get rich quick business plan, it's merely to boost the appeal of his over all business. Personally i would like a 109 or S76, but i'm liking the jetranger, because i'm not pushing my boundries with budget (meaning i'm being given a fantatic oportunity and don't want to go over the top) nor capabilities as a pilot, i've just leanred more about what it's needed for an it's alot of small island transfers from airports, so correct me if i'm wrong but maybe a 206 or 206L would be better for this ? as maybe a 109 or S76 are to "plush" for this work ? I'm learning mor everyday about people's views and also operations. .if anyone has any information on helicopter slaes in Aus ? please keep your opinions and thoughts coming,

Cheers,
JF

[helmet fire]

jetflite,

if you are fair dinkum, and it sounds like you are, I have two quick questions for you:

1. Does the owner want kudos/business enhancement OR is he looking for a profitable machine?

2. Is your motivation linked to your opportunity, or are you acting for the owner?

Also, you need to do a quick mission analysis of distances, payload, etc, and client expectations. The distances you are suggesting will probably need more than the machines you are considering. Also I am thinking that an R44 or B206 is not going to impress anyone, and is unlikely to even meet the life insurance requirements of a man worth more than $1 bil. Let alone some of his clientelle.

[jetflite]

[QUOTE=helmet fire]jetflite,
if you are fair dinkum, and it sounds like you are, I have two quick questions for you:
1. Does the owner want kudos/business enhancement OR is he looking for a profitable machine?
2. Is your motivation linked to your opportunity, or are you acting for the owner?

Refrasing: the net $1b is from multiple companies, the aircraft will be owned by the mother company, which in turn will be tax deductable to the 4 sub-companies, operating for all 4 companies. The Owner of these companies would like it for business enhancement (transfers from airport to resorts in and around a 100nm radius) of course no one wants to run at a loss, so yes it is desired to be profitable. Occasionally it's secondary use will be private trips, company employee transfers etc. It is not the sole means of making profit, but more an add on to package buyers who book holidays,
2.My motivation is linked to the opportunity and to the owner as it is family, and of course i couldn't pass up an offer like this nor take it for granted.
It seems to me that a B206 is proving to be a winner. . for purchase price, hourly rate and fixed cost. The aircraft wont be operating "Joy Flights", it's more an air taxi form resort to resort, and sometimes used for property delepment location ans as stated before personal use.

please keep opinions coming.... they are much appreciated.

Cheers,
JF:ok:

[CYHeli]

JF
You mentioned transfers a number of time and it was touched upon very quickly by some others here; don't forget your payload. That includes luggage!

You wont get much into an R44. Think about where the pax are coming from and going to and what they will have with them, ie. laptops, suitcases, golf clubs, etc. Then do some practice weight and balances on the different scenarios and factor in your fuel. Show these to the boss and explain why some models don't work and why others do. That way you are not just focusing on price, but practicalities.

Are you flying over water? Will the owner/boss/pax want/need pop-out floats or just life jackets? Do you have or need an AOC?

Don't just think about the short term, once the boss sees the potentials, he may out grow that helicopter pretty quickly.

Personally I would go for a AS350B3 or EC130B4.:ok:

[sling]

JF

I can't beleive some of the negative responses to your very valid questions.. It is a real shame the moderators can't weed out the idiots.. Anyway, I've found the EC120 as a very versatile aircraft although you could run into performance issues if the mission is to go 4 up plus pilot with luggage.
You did mention transfers, the EC120 is ideal with the large baggage compartment which you won't find in any other aircraft in the small turbine catagory.
There are a couple of owners between Victoria and Queensland who have very similar missions to what you are describing and they seem to be very happy with the 120.
One final point is that if your owner wants to land anywhere off airport then the benefits of the Fenestrom are huge from a noise abatement and safety point of view.
PM me if you want more info on operators in your area that may be able to give you more info.
Sling

[jetflite]

Sling & Mr selfish,

Both very valid points, of which i had thought about to some degree, in my opinion i felt that if there wasn't room for the pax. baggage then i would be ferried over by the boats that service the various locations.. it's anywhere from a 1-2 hours ferry ride. I thought they wouldn't mind waiting that extra bit if they got a 10-30min helicopter ride as part of there holiday deal. I have some basic knowledge of the EC120 and it is in the running for this position. . very true about the nose abatment. . something i hadn't figured. it seems were making ground and all of your opinions are greatly appreciated. . looks like the helicopters arising the most are :
B206
B206L
EC120
AS350
Now i'll start breaking these down individually with Hourly rates, fixed, insurance etc. any help with some of these figures would be great. .

Cheers,
JF

[BigMike]

The other machine to consider if you intend to do a lot of over water flights, is a AS355. Fitted with the Squirrel "Cheeks" this would be an ideal aircraft, although with a higher purchase price and operating costs. Being a Twin it may make your boss, and his clients insurance companies happier.

[Head Turner]

As lovely as they are, the B206 isn't the machine for impressing the clients. Go for a Squirrel, it's a better machine overall and the clients will like the sa=eating arrangement and the comfort, and they are nice to fly and not unreasonably more expensive than the B206. I've been in your position and the AS350 is the helicopter to go for. Anything else and you will always be regreting not having a Squirrel.

[jetflite]

the As350 would be fantastic to obtain, for the job and to fly. . but i'm not an expert on insurance cost etc and fixed cost.. basically over all running of the aircraft. . . but none the less i am learning.. everything seems to be looking positive... i'm not sure about twins with low hour pilots ? insurance on aircraft as a whole ? opinions ?

[B Sousa]

Head Turner.
B206 and Squirell is Apples and Oranges. How about comparing a Squirell and a B206L4. Better comparison. For tours I always recommend the Squirell, for VIPs, the L4 or 407.....

[nigelh]

The AS 350 is a great machine but one MAJOR drawback.....turbomeca... the twin could be a lot cheaper to run as the engines are two a penny Alison which you can replace for maybe $60,000 whereas when i had a problem with my engine it was over $300,000 and that was for an exchange !!!!!!!!!Then there are the servos to be done ..for the 206 about $1500 each $5000 for the Squirrel.....main rotor blade sleeves life 1500 hrs nearly $50,000 to replace !!!! Trust me the 350 is V expensive to run...problem is i can find very cheap parts for the 206 but not for the 350....unless anyone knows where to find them ????:)
350 is very much more comfortable and roomy than the EC 120 and bags more power...

[Hughes500]

Try a BO 105, cheap to buy, bombproof maintenance and very big boot for the suitcases and 2 cheap Allisons

[gadgetguru]

I'd nominate going the 206/206L , good machines, do the job, + all the above comments.

if you're starting out & want to make it work, leverage on the cheap(er) aspects of the Jetty until you are on your feet.

later arrange to take the boss for a ride in a 350/120/130, if the boss is happy with the way things are going but & is willing to spend more, I'm sure he'll form an opinion on the others & considering he wants client focus, then it's up to you to present more figures on them.

you wouldn't go buying a brand new ferrari when learning to drive, nor would you buy a rolls royce if you were starting a taxi company.

I'd certainly like the 350 or 130, but start with something that wil be adequate & economically viable, before over-extending yourself

my 2 cents

[jetflite]

Thanks to all, very valid points.
Mr selfish. . you've got the right idea. . the resorts are based on a beach side location, my thoughts where if to go ahead with a B206, to then transfer the passangers to the rooms in say something similar to an old open roof land rover, or something beachy. . fitting with the "rugged Island Helicopter" fitted out in a very suiting paint scheme and interior. As paint and interior can be over hualed so it presents it's self to the customer as "Eye Catching".

Gadget guru: Your pretty much spot on the money, Although helicopters like the As350 -EC120 would be great and i'd love to fly them. . i don't want to bite off more than i can chew, and figured i can do alot with a B206, as i stated above paint etc. An with cheaper cost's on the whole. . i can make this work get it up on it's feet and then. . approach my boss once he has been familiar with the success of a 206 and show him the next "Step" in aviation etc. The B206 seems like a good entry level machine. . now i guess it just finding a decent one. I will contact my local maintanence facility and see if they have figures on the 206. OR 206L

[helmet fire]

Jetflite,

have you run the Conklin and Dedeker (sp?) database on purchase/running costs? It is worth about $800 or so, but will fill you in on types/costs/insurance/etc as well as decipher those costs into seat per mile costs and give you performance specs of each type.

[chadwick]

Toys to impress:

S76 would be a real treat


or an Agusta 109 family member

:cool:

[BigMike]

I really think you will be better off with a Longranger for this type of work. It will cost you more to purchase, but not a lot more to operate. I flew this type of operation in the tropics for 18 months with a Jetranger, and with more than 3 people you end up with no room for baggage. An L-3 or L-4 would be ideal. Nicer ride in the 206L as well, with a little bit more speed.