View Full Version : Qantas Quietly Books A 747 For Heavy Maintenance In Singapore
EmiratesSandpit
21st Mar 2006, 13:45
Qantas goes back on Asian promise
By Scott Rochfort
March 22, 2006
BARELY a fortnight after promising to keep the heavy maintenance of its Boeing jets in Australia, Qantas quietly booked in at least one of its 747s for an overhaul in Singapore.
"As part of the transition of our heavy maintenance operations from Sydney to Avalon, a heavy maintenance check on one of our Boeing 747-400 aircraft will be carried out in Singapore next month," the airline's head of engineering, David Cox, confirmed yesterday.
Steve Fenech, the acting national secretary of the Australian Licenced Aircraft Engineers Association, said: "We are horrified by the claims that the 747s need to go offshore."
He said Qantas's plans to use Australian aircraft engineers to oversee the work in Singapore was a "slap in the face".
Full article : http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/qantas-goes-back-on-asian-promise/2006/03/21/1142703365706.html
Sunfish
21st Mar 2006, 18:41
Ah ha! Thats the plan! The Fabian strategy, a little at a time. Its clear that the Avalon move is just a sop. All your Qf maintenance is going offshore, or rather the maintenance of the newer types is never going to come here in the first place is it?
This strategy will work just fine, except it reduces Qantas to nothing more than a brand name.....................which has nothing to back it up.
Turbo 5B
21st Mar 2006, 19:14
They tried KLM but KLM doesn't have CASA approval and HAECO is about to be audited by CASA because CASA has some worries.
Honestly is anyone suprised.
Is it VH OJO by any chance?
EmiratesSandpit
21st Mar 2006, 20:18
Would you care to elaborate on such "worries" at HAECO?
I am aware of reports that JL were unhappy with work done on 747s and 767s but that was at TAECO.
why dont CASA insist this is an australian registered A/C
it must be maintained the same as other A/c
same lame to ame ratio
then instead of sending two reps
they must send twenty lames to make sure that the work is done and not just signed off
P.S.
who ever goes overseas make sure the work is done properly
that is what got us in to this problem, jollies
Elroy Jettson
21st Mar 2006, 22:22
Nah, just send the clowns who "over saw" the near right off of the ex MAS 744s! Work will be done back in AUS quick smart! :} Nice to see CASA sit idley by as all this happens. Might have to put some more fees up to justify their existence. "Want to register it here? Then fix it, and crew it here. Simple." :hmm:
The 767s (Z cars if I recall) went to Singapore a few years back for major maintenance so this is hardly a new set of circumstances however it does fit in with the rest of the goings on. If I recall correctly, most of the aircraft came back to Australia with more snags on them then when they went into maintenance. However, the fundamental difference then was what department the cost of fixing those snags went against. Makes the singapore operation look all rosy and the QF line maintenance guys look like they are having to spend more money on the iarcraft than they should.
How long will it be before Avalon can not handle the 'volume of work' and so even more aircraft go overseas?
oicur12
21st Mar 2006, 23:33
“This strategy will work just fine, except it reduces Qantas to nothing more than a brand name”
This is precisely where many industries are heading. As Robert Crandell from American Airlines once said, the ultimate airline will be one that doesn’t operate a single aircraft.
Apophis
21st Mar 2006, 23:52
Would you care to elaborate on such "worries" at HAECO?
I am aware of reports that JL were unhappy with work done on 747s and 767s but that was at TAECO.
HAECO?TAECO same thing really.:ok:
We here at Avalon recon the place has about 2 years to run before............the end.
Apophis
22nd Mar 2006, 04:45
Qantas could be heading for a showdown with unions after the airline's chief executive officer Geoff Dixon backflipped on a pledge to keep the airline's engineering work in Australia.
Union leaders are planning rallies to protest the Qantas decision to send one of its 747 jumbo jets to a workshop in Asia.
Just two weeks ago, Geoff Dixon told the airline's 6900 maintenance workers he had backed away from plans to send engineering work out of Australia after a decision to close its Sydney maintenance base.
Future maintenance would instead be sent to Brisbane and an expanded Melbourne base on the Avalon airfield but Mr Dixon did not mention this would not happen before Sydney closed.
Australian Manufacturing Workers' Union assistant national secretary Glenn Thompson said his members had been ld to believe their work would be be maintained within Australia, despite a desire to cut costs by between 15 and 20 per cent by an in-depth review between July next year and July 2008.
"We've got major concerns that Qantas on March 10 gave us a commitment to maintain high-skilled Australian jobs in Australia," Mr Thompson said.
"And as a result of that, I understand that Qantas has taken a decision which goes back on their initial commitment to maintain maintenance of aircraft in Australia by seeking to offshore one of their 747-400 series aircraft.
"In relation to taking action, we're currently in a bargaining round and in the process of negotiations with Qantas.
"Quite clearly, the issue of uncertainty about heavy maintenance in Australia is of great concern to us.
"Qantas gave us a commitment that no offshoring would occur.
"This is quite clearly Qantas breaking their position and word to the workforce."
Australian Licenced Aircraft Engineers Association federal president Michael O'Rance said his union had sought legal advice.
"Our belief is that Qantas is in breach of our enterprise bargaining agreement and outsourcing protocol," he said.
He said he had raised the matter with Qantas management but that they hadn't responded.
"Now they've got an aircraft that needs a heavy maintenance check and they're going to send it to Singapore. We're dismayed at the position Qantas has taken."
Mr O'Rance said he had 227 members in Sydney facing redundancy in less than two months, while the hangars in which they worked were not due to demolished for up to six years.
"We're telling Qantas they've got the manpower, they've got the knowledge and they've got the equipment to do these jobs. Let them be done in Sydney.
"In the discussions we have had with the company, they have told us the rationale for sending this job to Asia is that the lines are full in Melbourne (at Avalon) and they have no other alternative but to send this maintenance offshore. But we say the right alternative is right here in Sydney."
Australian Workers Union national secretary Bill Shorten, who represents unlicenced aircraft maintenance workers, said he believed that Qantas had actually booked two 747s for maintenance overhauls overseas.
"There's two 747s we're concerned about. They're to be sent over for D checks, that's the most extensive and intensive maintenance overhaul," Mr Shorten said.
"They say that isn't going to happen. But we can tell you the month and the airport.
"One is scheduled, we understand, to go to the KLM facility in Zurich in April. The other is scheduled to go to HAECO (Hong Kong Aircraft Engineering Company) in Hong Kong in June.
"Whether it's Singapore or Hong Kong, the observation we make is that they came out two weeks ago and said they weren't going to become the flying panda or the flying cuckoo.
"The point is, this is major work. It's a D check, not even a C check or one of the other checks. It's the most serious check."
A spokeswoman for Mr Shorten later said his union was also looking at legal options in relation to what it sees as commitments made in its EBA.
She said the AWU was also planning to join a third union, the Australian Manufacturing Workers' Union, in hosting rallies on Friday at the Melbourne, Brisbane and Sydney airports, with a promise of minimal disruption to the travelling public.
Qantas head of engineering David Cox denied arrangements had been made for 747 maintenance in either Hong Kong or Switzerland.
"Do we have a 474 booked for heavy maintenance with HAECO? No, we don't," Mr Cox said.
"However we are talking to HAECO and others about possible opportunities, should they be needed.
"And do we have an aircraft booked with KLM for heavy maintenance? Again, the answer is no.
"For operational reasons, some of our heavy maintenance work is undertaken overseas from time to time. We've made no secret of this. We are always assessing opportunities and talking to service providers.
"We did talk to KLM late last year, but did not take this any further."
theage.com.au
The unions did not think this would happen what friggin planet are they on of course this was going to happen all there members should give them the flick they have done bugger all for them.
Pass-A-Frozo
22nd Mar 2006, 08:41
The reason I ask about aircraft turn-around and ame/lame involvement is I wonder what management would say if engineering either refused to turn around an aircraft maint'd overseas... or wrote up every tiny thing wrong and refused to release the aircraft till it was fixed..
Of course I'm not saying I agree with that though :}
Turbo 5B
22nd Mar 2006, 08:42
Just heard from a mate who went to the first meeting held by the ALAEA Fed exec and Heavy Maint Lames since the shut down was announced.
He said that a recommendation has been put to the Executive to call Mass meeting of all ALAEA members in Sydney by tuesday next week to discuss Qantas's plans reegarding redundancies.
The gist of it was that the announcement of redundant LAME positions actually affects all LAMEs at Qantas covered by the EBA.
This could mean that the EBA clause of last on first off applies to any Lame within Qantas not just those from the area that the jobs were shed from.
If this is the case then long serving Lames from Heavy could challenge their dismissal if there are blokes with lesser time with the company in, say, perth or sdt or mit,bne Heavy etc.
Apophis
22nd Mar 2006, 08:47
The ALAEA is just a wee bit slow of the mark are they where the hell are they and what are they doing it would seem stuff all.
Pass-A-Frozo
22nd Mar 2006, 08:50
Qantas to keep maintenance in Australia
From: AAP
March 22, 2006
Qantas is committed to keeping its heavy aircraft maintenance in Australia, despite arranging to send a Boeing 747-400 to Singapore for work next month, the airline said today.
Chief executive Geoff Dixon announced on March 10 that Qantas would not send engineering work to Asia for at least two years.
But he also said Qantas would move its Sydney operation to Melbourne.
The airline today confirmed it had booked a Boeing 747-400 aircraft in for work in Singapore next month, as part of the transition.
However, executive general manager of Qantas Engineering David Cox said this was not unusual.
He said Qantas had made no secret about sending the jet to Singapore and would continue to send work offshore if necessary.
"On occasion we carry out maintenance work offshore, work that is done by qualified, reputable and fully certified service providers," Mr Cox said in a statement.
"To be clear, right now we have plans for one aircraft to undergo a maintenance check overseas.
"However, we will always reserve the right to send some work offshore to meet operational requirements where necessary."
Turbo 5B
22nd Mar 2006, 08:52
Indeed the whole situation is unfair, nobody should have to lose their jobs.
But this might be a wake up call to the membership in general that anybodies job could be affected not just us poor buggers in Sydney Heavy.
As such it's time to wake up and speak up and then take action.
Last Update: Wednesday, March 22, 2006. 8:00am (AEDT)
A 747 will be sent to Singapore next month. (Lateline)
Singapore picks up Qantas jumbo job
Qantas says it is sending one of its 747s to Singapore for maintenance, while the company finishes transferring its Australian maintenance operations from Sydney to Melbourne.
The plane will be sent to Singapore next month, but the airline says it is committed to keeping its maintenance operations in Australia.
Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association spokesman Michael O'Rance says the airline's actions undermine that commitment.
"If they're committed to maintenance, why not do it?" he said.
"They've got the manpower, they've got the facility there, it's not as though they're pulling down that hangar in the next week or two.
"That hangar's going to be there, under my understanding, for the next five or six years. Why not utilise it?"
Mr O'Rance says he worried Qantas is not as committed to Australian workers as it says.
"I certainly hope this is not the tip of the iceberg," he said.
"But our members feel betrayed, they're very down at the moment, and this just further expands it. It's disgraceful, it's un-Australian."
This came from the ABC news site.
rudderless1
22nd Mar 2006, 09:15
The unions did not think this would happen what friggin planet are they on of course this was going to happen all there members should give them the flick they have done bugger all for them.[/QUOTE]
Members lax attitude toward the point and purpose of association and how it is achieved is the result we have today.
The seeds of corruption and incompetance feed on the apethy of the members all waiting for someone else.
Didn't this start back with the loss of the 3 min handwash time, nightshift meals, 17.5% dayshift penalties.
Then we moved on to the I'm right jack factor in 96 loss of dayshift penalties, diff shift lengths for new starters, loss of RDO'S etc, then the LAME US vs THOSE STUCK 97 Jack deal divid and conquer.
Yes these inept union leaders endorsed company yes votes time and again, rather then maintaining equality in the ranks and hence unity and strength.
Where is the forsight (not Forstaff :D that we were given instead)
Unions are needed to keep the worplace fair and safe, vigilant members keep unions strong and useful.
Howard encourages corrupt, over remunerated, underskilled management at the expense of the creation of a new working poor.
You need a UNION just make it accountable, be informed and clean them up.:ok:
i read the eba pinned up in h245 it states consideration must be given
it also states that consideration to people nearing retirement
it does no state last in first out is set in concrete
what about people that are not union members are they binded by this
do you thing base will let its young guns go to be replaced enmass by people close to retirement
Bumpfoh
22nd Mar 2006, 11:06
As an extension to your proposal if the aircraft is to be sent offshore, or any aircraft sent offshore for that matter is the LAME's as a whole should boycott any individual/s travelling with and supervising work carried out on the aircraft full-stop. (Bring on the white ants):E
I'm sure the boffins have a contingency for this action but at least the members would show a definite opposition to this type of action. :rolleyes:
And then lets see what type of garbage job we get back, line and sevicing should have a field day! :suspect:
All such rectification work should be well documented and recorded independently with a resultant case file compiled, the company may not care but I'm sure/hope CASA would.:ok:
Turbo 5B
23rd Mar 2006, 09:31
Unfortunately boycotting or black banning that Aircraft is classed as unprotected industrial action. Unless members consider on the own behalf that boycotting the aircraft would be a good thing.
That would be a different story.
Bumpfoh
23rd Mar 2006, 09:57
Quite right. I would not for a moment suggest any form of industrial action.:E
Merely suggesting LAME's should vote with their own individual feet on a moral conscience vote.:ok:
Turbo 5B
23rd Mar 2006, 10:16
HearHear! Well said.
HotDog
23rd Mar 2006, 11:00
And then lets see what type of garbage job we get back, line and sevicing should have a field day! :suspect:
All such rectification work should be well documented and recorded independently with a resultant case file compiled, the company may not care but I'm sure/hope CASA would.:ok:
Isn't it strange though, hundreds of overseas aircraft land and take off every week in Australia; the majority of which have been serviced and maintained, including heavy maintenance in Asia and Middle East. I think CASA should be informed about that.:confused:
Orville
23rd Mar 2006, 11:53
I here Singapore is sending their HR over to Sydney this week to hire Australians for work in Singapore. Apparantly they dont have enough staff to fullfil their needs, of an additional Heavy check, that has been quickly thrown together.
They have also said that the package they need to offer doesnt have to be too special, because the Australians are now desperate for a job.
Don't sell yourselves too cheap fellows.
And Dixon would have promised anything to keep the industrial unrest down before the Commonwealth Games. now there almost over he is showing his true colours again.
stuff SIA and stuff aviation,it's time to move on to bigger and better things outside this stuffed up world of aircraft
Hotdog,
When are you going to get over it, just about every post you make, knocks Aust LAMEs.May I suggest you rack off and leave aircraft maintenance matters to those who know whats going on.
I have flown as an F/E in many parts of the world and make my living as a LAME, some aircraft that I work on are serviced in Asia and China and I dont like what I see.
VTM
ps send me a private email if you wish:rolleyes:
HotDog
24th Mar 2006, 05:08
VTM, let's get something straight. First of all, I am entitled to my opinions as any one else on this forum. Secondly, I am not knocking Australian LAMEs; I am merely stating a fact that aircraft can be successfully maintained in places other than Australia by non Australian LAMEs.
Turbo 5B
24th Mar 2006, 07:47
But not as well as we do?
Turbo any up date on spreading the cr's sydney wide
all the talk to-day
Sunfish
24th Mar 2006, 08:44
We do not yet design aircraft that synchronise with "Face". I do not wish to be part of the wreck that conclusively demonstrates this phenomenon. Ban me if you like.
Turbo 5B
24th Mar 2006, 09:18
Domo, no idea yet.There is advice coming from a Barrister as to whether or not the redundancies apply across all those covered by the Lame EBA's and not just those in Heavy.
thanks for the update turbo
Going Boeing
25th Mar 2006, 06:10
QF is sending almost 30 LAME's to Singapore to oversee the maintenance of this B744 as they have experienced the lack of quality control at this MRO before, when they sent QF/AO B767's there for maintenance. These aircraft needed extensive rectification on return to Oz. It is expected that these LAME's will accrue plenty of overtime and they will need eyes in the back of their heads.
The aircraft is being sent to Singapore as management believe that if it was the "D" check was started in Sydney then it would never be completed. There was not enough hours left on the aircraft to delay the "D" check until the Avalon operation is up and running.
Apophis
25th Mar 2006, 06:29
QF is sending almost 30 LAME's to Singapore to oversee the maintenance of this B744 as they have experienced the lack of quality control at this MRO before, when they sent QF/AO B767's there for maintenance. These aircraft needed extensive rectification on return to Oz. It is expected that these LAME's will accrue plenty of overtime and they will need eyes in the back of their heads.
The aircraft is being sent to Singapore as management believe that if it was the "D" check was started in Sydney then it would never be completed. There was not enough hours left on the aircraft to delay the "D" check until the Avalon operation is up and running.
AVALON has already done D checks so what has to be up and running there already flat stick with not Enough resources.
good to see 30 fat lazy lames will get a holiday.
Apophis
26th Mar 2006, 01:23
if the lame's had any sort of back bone they would ALL refuse to go on this company sponsored junket
But they won,t they will be tripping over each other to go on this holiday.
4SPOOLED
28th Mar 2006, 02:24
Lames with no backbone?
Come on us pilots are just as bad, tripping over each other to take a paycut or in some cases fly for free!!
Everyone has their own plan and own strategy to succeed in the industry. Stop moaning about it and paying out on the lames, im sure if your job where up for retrenchment, and you had a family and mortgage, you would be taking some rather desperate actions to try and keep your job to!
Sometimes the attitude displayed on here leaves a pretty bad taste in my mouth especially when the good pilots/Lames and that have made a good contribution to aviation and have successfull careers have no need to come on here, it seems that the ones that do or have not succeeded are trying to spread untruths to turn of new generations of aviation professionals from the career.
wing surfer
28th Mar 2006, 07:15
They tried KLM but KLM doesn't have CASA approval and HAECO is about to be audited by CASA because CASA has some worries.
Honestly is anyone suprised.
Is it VH OJO by any chance?
for some reason this was put into the wrong discussion thread so here it is again..............
Turbo 5B confirmed it is VH-OJO, it tis the first of many more contestants, in this case it is singapore airlines and not SASCO as others have stated, future sites are yet to be comfirmed and future A/C are also to be confirmed. allocations are keeping tight lipped about the whole thing.
you will note that the AVV site does not have the room for all the maintenance.
(surprize, surprize, surprize)
watch this space..........
Ultralights
4th Apr 2006, 10:43
Rumor has it that a 747 has already been repainted in preperation for work in Asia
http://www.aussim.com.au/forum/uploads/cookie/THE_NEW_QANTAS3.jpg
Turbo 5B
5th Apr 2006, 12:20
Spirit of Asia?
It would be more believable if it said "Spirit of John Howard's Australia"
HotDog
6th Apr 2006, 02:47
Still blaming John Howard for all your ills.:confused: By the way Turbo, did you pick up your dictionary yet? I sent it to the Qantas Jet Base address you gave me a couple of weeks ago.
fordran
6th Apr 2006, 03:53
Any of you Sydney boys able to confirm if its true about the group of HM engineers that have approached management about doing super a checks under contract conditions?
Freehills
6th Apr 2006, 04:01
We do not yet design aircraft that synchronise with "Face". I do not wish to be part of the wreck that conclusively demonstrates this phenomenon. Ban me if you like.
Uhm, the rather interesting aircraft known as the "Nomad"? As far as I know, that was the last transport aircraft designed and put into service by ozzies. And since then you've wisely left it to more advanced countries. Like Brazil. ;)
that's the rumor fordran,then once that's up and running they will be looking at base maint servicing work as well
Turbo 5B
6th Apr 2006, 10:10
Havent seen the book yet HotDog.
Something else that is true Fordran is that ACS don't know how they are going to do them with the`amount of people that they have.
They've got to do em some where and AVV can't cope with the extra work.
the shaman
6th Apr 2006, 12:09
Havent seen the book yet HotDog.
Something else that is true Fordran is that ACS don't know how they are going to do them with the`amount of people that they have.
They've got to do em some where and AVV can't cope with the extra work.
I am coming to the conclusion that QF Engineering management are losing control of the situation and have already thrown the baby out with the bath water, so much experience walking out the door. They seemed to have killed the enthusiasm to remain of all but those that are financially challenged.
Would not surpise me if they are calling for contractors very shortly .... ACS brothers beware..
Turbo 5B
6th Apr 2006, 13:03
Look, quite frankly the writing is on the wall. If you are a Licenced Engineer working for Qantas you get paid too much.
The ground rules have been set. Benchmark 20 to 30 % less than what you are on now.
Heavy Maintenance Engineers from sydney were/are the lowest paid (sorry except BNE H/M). We are / were the most flexible and some of the best in the world.
We would fix anything from a major structural defect in a fuselage, carry out any major modification be it wiring/strut or isv, ife, etc.
We could inspect anything that an AD or Sb could throw up, and fix it not defer it to the next available check.
Who was it that found the major butt splice crack in one of the ugly sisters?
Sydney H/M. It was found through experience and diligence.
The Manager of H/m should be ashamed to call himself an engineer.
Or should I say an ex engineer.
To Sack the experience that has given Qantas its safety record and to do it to satisfy short term profitability is the lowest that an engineer that has come through the ranks could stoop to.
I can only hope that his job is as stable as mine at the moment.
What is the future in remaining with Qantas as a licenced engineer?
Does any of the Management Boffins that read this site have an honest answer?
How about any of the ALAEA industrial group that have had circles run around them by Qantas for the last ten years, Have you lot got any answers?
No... I thought not.
You industrial genius's thought that AVV maintenance base was your bread and butter for years to come. Get not only the LAME's but the AME's and planners to pay fees and Qantas would protect your interests for years to come...100K a year for lip service to your masters.
Remember the Midnight Oil song..."Your dream world is just about to end...........yeaaaaah yeahhhh yeaah , your dream world is just about to end."
You never now mr industrial manager ...I might apply for your job when you get sacked in a couple of months, remember the ALAEA is classed as a small business and unfair dismissal laws dont apply to a white anglosaxon male that doesnt perform in his posiion.
No SAR No Details
6th Apr 2006, 20:06
Tick, tick, tick Turbo.
the shaman
6th Apr 2006, 23:54
hear hear Turbo - spot on 100%
Woomera
7th Apr 2006, 00:10
Turbo's going away for a little while. He or she wrote some pretty nasty things on another (removed) thread.:suspect:
I know what everyone's going through with industrial changes at the mo. We all are effected in some way. However, once you start getting emotional and in some cases down right offensive with your posts, you dilute their effectiveness. And offend the majority of us that are "reasonable" contributors to this site.
We will not hesitate in either suspending priveleges to those that don't toe the line or deleting threads, or both.
Woomera (Eastern States)
BHMvictim
7th Apr 2006, 07:47
Turbo's going away for a little while. He or she wrote some pretty nasty things on another (removed) thread
Qantas has done some pretty nasty things to people such as Turbo.
Boo-Hiss to Woomera once again!
Apophis
7th Apr 2006, 08:18
another 747 gone to hong kong on news today.
webber1
7th Apr 2006, 11:46
It's a shame about Turbo because he/she wrote a very strong post.
I look fwd to his/her return.
When is he/she back?
So, Eastern States Woomera works for Qantas.
I'm suprised that he bans as much as he does.