Fixed/variable costs of piston helos

[fltcom]

Do all psiton helo's require expensive time/life rebuilds as does, for instance, the Robinson range? I am thinking specifiaclly of either an Enstrom or a hughes 300.

I am a fixed wing owner and know roughly how to calculate the fixed and variable ownership costs assoiciated with 'planks', but I am a little in the dark when it comes to maintenance / rebuilds associated with piston helo's.

Advice gratefully recieved

Fly....

[Three Blades]

Hughes 300 series do not have the fixed life of the R22. Each component has it's own calendar or flight life. I don't know about Enstroms.
TB

[rotornut]

Also, on the 300 there are a lot of "on condition" components which can make things very expensive - especially in an older machine.

[mongoose237]

Yes, it certainly is a double-edged sword.

You will get unscheduled maintenance on any machine, but at least with a Robinson there is the ability to be slightly more accurate on your estimated running costs.

Helicopters have a lot more moving parts than your average fixed-wing, hence the need for time-limiting.

If you opt for a helicopter with longer calendar life componentry or parts whose serviceability is "on condition", you may get lucky and have a spate of very cheap flying. Or the previous owner may have had that lucky run... :ouch:

I've seen far more parts replaced "prematurely" on other piston helicopters than on Robinsons - provided they aren't excessively abused, Robinson's generally go the distance.

[rotorboater]

The only calandar part of an enstrom is the lamaflex bearings, they are 6 years, the MRB's are on condition but usually last at least 10 years, most of the other parts are on hours, MRGB & TRGB 1200hrs, Engine 1500hrs etc.

The enstrom is a good bet if you are only going to do 50 hrs a year or less as a personal machine - the early ones pre 280fx are a bit old fashioned compaired to the Robinson but safe as houses. Running costs are a bit more on fuel than a r22, a bit less than a R44.

[HillerBee]

The Hiller 12 has only 4 lifelimited parts: tailrotor blades and pushrods.

So very cheap to operate.

[Gaseous]

Rotorboater, My Lamiflexes are down on the card as having a 5 year life. Is 6 years a new directive? Incidently, my last set were about £2000.

Enstroms have overhaul times on quite a few bits so check remaining times before buying.

Clutch 2400
TR gearbox 1200
MR gearbox 1200
MR shaft 76200 to scrap (!)
Mags 500/4 years
injector 1500
Tacho drive belts 4 years to scrap
Flexpacks 1200
TR spindle 7500
assorted transmission bearings 600
swashplate bits 1200
engine 1500
lamiflexes 5 years (unless Rotorboater is correct.)

Lots of bits 'on condition'

Times taken from my log book component cards.

Rotorboaters right about the private use bit. I know of an R44 coming up for 12 years old with about 500 hours on it.:eek: Thats expensive flying.

[ascj]

Do they still make Hillers?

[mongoose237]

Do they still make Hillers?
Pulse Helicopters (http://www.pulsehelicopters.com/) are refurbing UH-12s and selling them as "zero timed"

[HillerBee]

As I said before all the other parts are on condition.

Hiller Aircraft still makes Hillers. Pulse sells refurbished helicopters by United Helicopters in Florida.

Mr. Selfish, how can you say you never want to fly one, if you don't know anything about them. They have an excellent safety record. Hiller has a high-inertia rotor system, which gives you a lot of time to lower your collective iin an engine failure and it's a breeze to make a zero-zero full-down. If you pull collective to much you will ascend again.

The Hiller is the only helicopter (without hydraulics, sas etc) where you can let go of the cyclic and it will just continue. (Not that I do it by the way) Stanley Hiller demonstrated this once by trimming the aircraft and then climbing out to the engine deck and staying there for a couple of minutes.

[lartsa]

mr selfish
Don’t know much about Hiller 12s (except that I never want to fly one and if I did I would never let go of the collective ).

ok so you dont want to fly one but why would you not want to let go of the collective[apart from the usual letting go of collectives on helicopters]

your post looks as if if letting go of the collective on the hiller would be a serious problem

[ascj]

Silly me, of course they dont make them anymore if they never wear out! And not to mention their outstanding safty record (according to the pulse website.Thanks mongoose237).:rolleyes: It all makes sense now. no wonder Frank makes so many helicopters.:D

[mongoose237]

What’s the VNE? Is it 60mph (52knots)?

According to the website:
VNE 84MPH (73kts)
Cruise 74MPH (64kts)
Range 150 miles
12 GPH
Its running the Franklin engine

Haven't flown one, and probably wouldn't buy one if I was in the market (which I'm not), but I wouldn't be adversed to flying one.

[Bravo73]

re Pulse.

Has anyone actually tried contacting them? Last time I tried to call, nobody picked up the phone. Nice website though... :suspect:

And if you are thinking of buying from them, try searching on here first. Then you'll discover a certain accident report that should be read. :eek:

[muffin]

I heard that Pulse had stopped trading. Or maybe that was just a rumour?

[brett s]

Hillers 12E's were about the same as Bell 47's from a maintenance standpoint & the overhaul interval was 1200 hours - they had a couple of reoccurring AD's on the rotor system that were a pain too.

The two things that took some getting used to when transitioning into them were the control lag & throttle sensitivity (about half the throttle travel as a Bell 47), and the VO-540 wasn't very tolerant of overspeeds. Gobs of rotor inertia, auto's were a piece of cake...

They were a great helicopter in their day, but time marches on.

[HillerBee]

First of all I'm talking about the Hiller 12 C with the 210 Franklin engine. I have a lot of hours in them and you can let go of the collective if the rigging is correct (like it always should be) The collective will just stay where it is. I fly Hillers for different owners and companies and a lot of them are not rigged right but when corrected there are really great to fly.

This conversation was about cost of pistons that's why I threw this in. I'm absolutely not against modern machines I just love flying. However I don't fly the R-22 and probably never will, I read accident reports. If you want a modern 2-3 seater I'd go for the Schweizer or even better the Enstrom.

The accident report about the Hiller is interesting but doesn't say anything about the safety. The pilot ran out of fuel. (He didn't check the fuel before he left and trusted a fuel gauge!) They made a safe autorotation, but chopped the tail.

Mr. Selfish I'm more than willing to fly with you in a Hiller by the way. Not to convince you to buy one but just for the experience.

[mongoose237]

I think as a private aircraft from new or with known history the R22 won't set a foot wrong. Or better still syndicate into an R44 consortium. Both are quick, capable and reliable. Give the R44 a chance and most people realise its an incredible machine, and pretty much unbeatable on cost per seat per mile.

You can count the number of times I've been in Enstroms on one hand making this a grossly unfair generalisation but they just always appear to be a permanent fixture in the maintenance hangar.

And if you have a 300 C that thrashed engine will not go to 1500 hours, let alone the extension. Furthermore any H269 kept outside in the UK you can double your maintenance costs. And you just aren't going anywhere quickly in one despite feeling like you are pointing straight down at the earth hanging off your harness. This increases your trip cost even if cost per hour is less. Luggage? Isn't happening, unless you like flying from the left and precariously mounting it up between the seats. It was a trainer. An excellent trainer. But not a practical personal transport.

I reserve judgement on the Hiller. On paper it doesn't look at all practical. But neither is its cousin the Bell 47 ... but I would have one in a heartbeat if I could.

Rotorway anyone? :E

All IMHO

[Bravo73]

The accident report about the Hiller is interesting but doesn't say anything about the safety.

It might not say anything about the aircraft but it says an awful lot about a company based at Sywell which brings/brought them into this country. :uhoh:


Muffin,

I also heard that (from multiple sources). When I called their number to check, noone picked up. Make from it what you will... :hmm:

[rotornut]

mongoose,
Having trained in a "C" and owned a 269B I can't argue with you. But you do get to enjoy the scenery at a leisurely pace with a great view. But don't drop your map or you'll never get it back in the air. They do have a certain charm although the R22 probably beats it on practicality.

[HillerBee]

It might not say anything about the aircraft but it says an awful lot about a company based at Sywell which brings/brought them into this country. :uhoh:
Muffin,
I also heard that (from multiple sources). When I called their number to check, noone picked up. Make from it what you will... :hmm:

Yes, that's absolutely true, it also says a lot about the company (even more I think) who builds them. But Pulse is not really trading anymore as far as I know, they just have 1 left.

But let's get back to the original discussion.

[tcamiga]

I think the collective issue needs clarification. It’s not that the collective “creeps” on a properly set up Hiller or B47. It’s the fact that even on an allegedly/apparently well set up machine, given the right conditions wind gust/cyclic input/angry god, the collective can slam:{ . Beware! I’d been flying the ’47 that nearly killed me for 3 days prior to it’s “satanic possession episode” I was in smooth air with the collective friction done up. After the loop:\ the AC was inspected, the broken engine restraint cables replaced (broke in the violent manoeuvre)and pronounced OK:D I flew it for a few more days (with a firm grip on the collective) with no reoccurrence.:O

The Hiller collective "creep" is related to the AUW at the time and how the well the particular machine is rigged. The collective spring bungee on the firewall has a lot of input into which way the collective will go in a badly rigged machine.

Here is some info which will help: http://brumbyhelicopters.com.au/hiller12erotors.htm

The B47G with metal blades can have similar probs - hydraulics off - if not rigged correctly - including checking the effects of the balance weight washer stack on the R Head in Auto.

Hope this helps.
T

[Pulse Helicopters]

re Pulse.

Has anyone actually tried contacting them? Last time I tried to call, nobody picked up the phone. Nice website though... :suspect:

And if you are thinking of buying from them, try searching on here first. Then you'll discover a certain accident report that should be read. :eek:

Pulse Can be contacted on the following numbers:
01604 791777 - 01604 790777 -
email: [email protected]
Phones have been faulty due to flooding at Sywell. The new number is at an office off site. (01604 791777)

[Bravo73]

Oh. My. God. :eek:

[Cirrusly]

I'm toying with the idea of starting up my own business in the next year or two. At this stage I think an R22 or R44 would be the best choice for what I have in mind but I wouldn't mind getting the lowdown on what is to be expected with ownership.
I have an idea of what else is involved besides the initial cost of the machine, but lets just assume I know nothing about about ownership altogether. What other costs are involved and what factors need to be thought about if I were to put this plan into action. I would like to hear what people have to say about owning a Robby or any other machine for that matter. Any input, opinions, info would be appreciated. Thanks.

[Runway101]

I guess your local Robinson dealer can best answer your questions, based on what you are going to do with your machine.

What comes to mind (other than the purchase cost) is:

- fuel/oil
- insurance
- maintenance
- airport fee
- hanger fee
- maps and gps updates etc
- fees to get and keep your pilots license
- fees for doing commercial flights
- white shirt with stripes ;-)
- profit taxes

I also guess that there are at least one or two other threads about this topic :ok:

[toptobottom]

However I don't fly the R-22 and probably never will, I read accident reports.

HillerBee - that's a bit unfair. The R22 is the most popular training heli by several orders of magnitude, as well as being the most popular machine for newly qualified owners. In absolute terms therefore, there will be more incidents logged against this machine. How many of these incidents are due to the machine and how many are due to pilot error though? Proportionately, Robinsons have an enviable safety record - it's the inexperienced drivers that do not.

[FLY 7]

CRG

Helicopters are expensive to operate - capital costs, depreciation, fixed and variable maintenance, repairs, insurance, taxes/licensing, hangarage, fuel..... That's why the hourly rental costs are so high.

But, there is a point where ownership becomes viable and for private owners, this can start from about 100hrs pa upwards - especially when you include the benefits of knowing it's your helicopter, maintained to your standards, available when and where you want it.

Obviously lots of people would like to own a helicopter and make money out of it, but few do. Those that make money from helicopters normally work hard and shrewd.

Not a fan of the Robinsons, but their costs are likely to be the most predicatable, aided by the economies of scale. They were designed and built to satisfy the budget end of the market. But, more importantly, you would need to make sure they are the best helicopter for your intended use.