Bad experience with instructor? Or was it just me?

[Garfs]

Hi

Couple of months ago, after speaking to many schools I booked (and paid for up front)a lesson in an R22.

I initially had it scheduled for a Saturday, but then rescheduled it for the Friday before, and gave 3 WEEKS notice in advance, so as to give the instructor ample notice to work around this. He said, Fine, but ring on the day to check the weather.

Come the Friday of the lesson, I rang at 9am, and weather was poor at the airfield, and the instructor said we could prob fly between showers if I wanted and vis was poor, so I asked if we could reschedule for when weather was better?

Ok, I dont know if this was a big mistake on my part, because, he then started having a right go at me and raised his voice slightly, saying I cant be that serious etc etc, and then said

"It doesnt make a difference to me anyway, as you mentioned you were thinking of going to America to do most of your training"

I could easily have chosen my local school (which would have worked out cheaper when I factor in fuel for the 1 and a half hour drive to the school in question) but I chose the school as I thought they seemed really good, and I guess maybe I was wrong?

From peoples experience here, is it taboo at schools to reschedule due to poor weather(as it was on Fri 17th March) and was I wrong in doing this, or was the instructor just having a bad day?

Thanks

[g0lfer]

Garfs

It certainly is NOT you. If instructors responded like this every time bad weather forced a reschedule then they would soon have no students. You will find the opposite happens more often, i.e. the instructor cancels the flight because the aircraft has "gone tech". This usually means it has not been properly maintained or they don't have the cash to repair it.

If I were you I would go elsewhere. It is imperative that you get on well with your instructor and even if you are going to the USA to train, you are giving a school the opportunity to show you why you should not.

Good luck with your training

[Garfs]

G0lfer

Thanks for your 2 cents worth. I'm lucky I've only paid for the one lesson, so I think i WILL go elsewhere.

Now I just hope the lesson wont be too awkward when I go for it as the instructor is probably well on this forum, and will know I am referring to him when he reads this.

Garfs

[g0lfer]

Garfs

I would take the lesson you have paid for then move if you are still not happy. Flying is expensive enough without giving schools money for nothing.

[fishboy]

Go to the US, you'll probably be treated right and you won't have to cancel or swap that many days for weather.
That instructor sounds like a :mad: anyway, when I was doing that job, the student was the employer, without him, there IS no job!
Most instructors you'll find are very accomodating and there is really no excuse for anything else.

[Garfs]

That instructor sounds like a :mad: anyway, .

Yes he was really nice when I 1st rang him, but I guess when he heard I was planning on doing the bulk of my training in America, he didnt care anymore.

G0lfer yes I will be taking the lesson I've paid for, and will see what its like with him, as I am certainly not going to just let him have my money

Garfs

[HillerBee]

Very unprofessional of that instructor, but it doesn't say all instructors are like that.

Personally if the student feels uncomfortable (with the weather in this case) I just reschedule. I think flying has to be fun for the student(customer) especially when he/she is spending a lot of money.

But that's just my 2 cents.

[HeliEng]

g0lfer,

You said:

the instructor cancels the flight because the aircraft has "gone tech". This usually means it has not been properly maintained or they don't have the cash to repair it.

In my opinion, you are treading on VERY dodgy ground, to make a sweeping statement of that degree could land you in some trouble!

I have experience of maintenance on flying school machines, and I think you are talking out of turn, it is more often than not because a student with few hours has come along and broken the aircraft due to inexperience, than poor maintenance or lack of funds.

Although on a major repair financial issues can play a part, this is not the kind of day to day situation that would unexpectedly cause an aircraft to be taken offline.

Poor maintenance, is just not an option. Any company maintaining flying school aircraft, in my opinion, uses the same amount of integrity as they would on any other aircraft, and in come cases are more concious of the fact that the aircraft is going to be abused by low-time pilots (much like a learner driver car).



Garfs,

I think he must have had a row with his missus that morning!! Just a bad day. :ok:

[Whirlybird]

It was extremely unprofessional of the instructor to act that way!

On marginal weather days, I usually let the student decide - I tell them we may or may not be able to fly, that we may have to abandon the lesson early, that they may not enjoy it that much due to high winds, snow, or whatever, but that they can fly if they want, or reschedule if they prefer. Some people say they just want to get airborne, and so long as it's safe, that's OK with me. Some say they'd rather come on a really nice day - also OK.

However, don't be too hard on the instructor...yet! He may have been having a bad day, as we all do. He may have been stressed because he's making no money due to this unseasonable March weather...I know just how he feels!!! Not an excuse for his behaviour, but understandable.

So take the lesson you've paid for, and then make your decision. But remember - the most important thing in the PPL(H) course is having an instructor you trust and get on well with.

And if he reads this forum, don't worry. He might learn something.

Good luck, whatever you do. :ok:

[Garfs]

WhirlyBird

Yes I am giving him another chance, and putting it down to him having a bad day.

I emailed him later on in the day, politely expressing my feelings, and made sure not to come across as sounding angry, but just dissapointed.

After all, we all have bad days and I certainly hope what he said to me was down to this.

Garfs

[fenfly01]

gOlfer,

"This usually means it has not been properly maintained or they don't have the cash to repair it"

:eek: Wow - quite a sweeping statement, and as a school owner I feel disappointed that you would suggest this to a new student. Yes, poor maintenance may be an issue at a very few schools, or the difficulty of financing a major unexpected problem, but surely you must believe that there are the odd school or two who do not fall into this category? Aircraft do go unexpectedly tech for allsorts of reasons, I've lost an aircraft for a day because of things like bird strikes, alternator failure, and other simple things that are not forseeable. They are maintained as Public Transport C of A (as was) but sometimes poo happens.

Garf, don't be put off by the instructor - flying is too much fun, find another if he is awkward and unprofessional - you are the CUSTOMER paying wads of cash. Happy flying!
FF01

[Garfs]

I have received a reply from my instructor.

He said he was not irate, and just said the weather was good enough for other students, so I could have flown if I really wanted to.

Oh well, whatever it is, I am just looking forward to my lesson which is coming up soon, and heres hoping it goes well:)

Garfs

P/S To my instructor if you are reading this I am not trying to turn people against you or anything (therefore not mentioning the school) and hope we will be able to keep our student-instructor relationship professional

[mongoose237]

With a reply like:
the weather was good enough for other students, so I could have flown if I really wanted to I would say Whirlybird has hit the nail squarely on the head:
He may have been stressed because he's making no money due to this unseasonable March weather

Do not feel bad Garfs, yes it was no money for the instructor that flight. But how long did it take you to earn that money to pay for the flight had you gone ahead?

It was not as if you had just not turned up (possibly the most annoying student habit)

[Garfs]

Hey Mongoose,

Thanks for the reassurance. All the best

Garfs

[Whirlybird]

He said he was not irate, and just said the weather was good enough for other students, so I could have flown if I really wanted to.


Hmmm, I don't like the sound of this guy. That is NOT how you treat a new student and paying customer.

Give it a go, Garfs, but tread carefuly if that's his usual attitude. :(

[Whirlygig]

As an example, I was booked to do my first trial lesson one November. I rang my instructor early that morning to see what the weather was like - I had an hour and a half drive like you.

His words were that it would have been OK if I was part way through a PPL and flew it dual (not solo) but, as this was my first lesson and he wanted me to enjoy it, he suggested rescheduling it.

However, the difference may well have been in the way he was paid. Salaried!

Cheers

Whirls

[mongoose237]

However, the difference may well have been in the way he was paid. Salaried! A tad harsh, Whirls! Not all freelancers are looking at the mighty buck.

There are always one or two like that, agreed. Strangely they are generally the ones that students seem to come and chat to you about, usually in the context of not flying so much with them anymore! ;)

Student pilots often have that uncanny knack, like small children, of being very perceptive of motive!

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

Always come to proon first - I've managed to find the best training providers through this web site, and sorted out the seedy and crappy outfits, which is more than likely the majority. The regulars can feed you with tried and tested recommendations to significantly improve your chances of finding just what you're looking for. Most of the genuine prooners have nothing to gain than purely paying it forward.

PS - anyone want a 6 week old baby ?:ooh:

Tired FS

[Garfs]

His words were that it would have been OK if I was part way through a PPL and flew it dual (not solo) but, as this was my first lesson and he wanted me to enjoy it, he suggested rescheduling it.

Whirls

My sentiments exactly. It was going to be my 1st ever such flight and also a birthday present from my girlfriend (it was my birthday yesterday), so therefore I wanted it to be memorable, i.e. nice weather and great visibility.

[Johe02]

After all the build up. . don't get too disapointed if you can't do it!

:}

[BigMike]

I always find it quite incredible the attitude of some instructors.
If you rung up and said you needed to hire a machine for a 1 hour photo shoot, they would be falling over themselves to organise things for you, but book a TIF and its a different story. Same money. You are a client after all, so if you are not happy with the treatment, ask for your money back and go somewhere else.

[Whirlygig]

A tad harsh, Whirls! Not all freelancers are looking at the mighty buck.
A fair cop Mongoose but, you have to concede, not entirely an unfair comment?

I have had, through my flying "career", 7 different instructors at three different schools. All of them I would highly recommend. Two I know where salaried but the rest were freelance. I'm not sure if it is valid to extrapolate those statistics but, I am sure that there are many conscientious instructors out there.

One piece of advice I was given (which may, or may not be fair) was to find an instructor who instructed because he wanted to rather than who was hour-building to get onto the more "exciting" aspects of flying.

How someone is paid, in whatever profession, has a bearing on how they do the job and their motives for doing it. I think of lay magistrates for example and special constables!

Cheers

Whirls

[scottishbeefer]

Name & Shame!!! (Come on - the rest of you were hoping he would!)

[Garfs]

Name & Shame!!! (Come on - the rest of you were hoping he would!)


I think I am going to give it another go attend my rescheduled lesson first, and see how goes, and THEN if I feel it goes badly, I'll name the school.

If he was just having a bad day, then I wouldnt want to risk tarnishing his reputation and also it would lead to a very awkward lesson :O

He has emailed me back and apologised as I mentioned and said he wasnt annoyed, but at the end of the day he still did say

"it doesnt make a difference to me as you are going to train in USA anyway, you cant be that serious about this if you cant even find a few hours to spare" (I have paid for the lesson so its not a money issue)

and I as the customer still got the impression he was annoyed at me

I just wonder if he's already read this

Garfs

[ShyTorque]

Garfs,

Just don't lose sight of the fact that YOU are the customer and YOU help pay his salary. You don't owe him any favours. If he wants your custom he should be professional and proper in all respects, including in his attitude towards you!

:ok:

[IntheTin]

Considering that 'Garfs' seems to have had a pretty poor introduction to aviation, he has shown great profesionalism in his judgement of not flying in crappy weather and from restraining in bad mouthing this instructor. Fair play to you Garfs. :ok:

[Garfs]

Considering that 'Garfs' seems to have had a pretty poor introduction to aviation, he has shown great profesionalism in his judgement of not flying in crappy weather and from restraining in bad mouthing this instructor. Fair play to you Garfs. :ok:

Thanks.

Lets just hope that this "professionalism" will one day help me land that first flying job I dream of, or any jobs thereafter should I be so lucky :)

Garfs

[autosync]

Why is everyone so quick to have a go at this instructor without getting his side of the story??

I have a feeling there are two sides to this one.
Garfs, I am not having a go at you as I don’t know the tone of the original conversation, but my experience with a very small amount of customers, when they ring looking for a weather brief on the morning and it is slightly less then perfect and several cancellations have been made to accommodate a half hour flight, some can start getting stroppy with the "I am the customer, I am paying your wages" line.
I am glad to say I haven’t lost the rag yet; I usually just pass them on to someone else, someone more enthusiastic then myself, because I really couldn't be bothered with that type of hassle anymore.
I understand it may be a big day for you, but it’s just a standard day for that instructor, maybe he did go off on a hair trigger or maybe he was pushed, who am I to say?
I just find it bizarre that an instructor would bother getting worked up about (a 30min?) trial lesson canceling, unless there is more to this then meets the eye.
By you coming on here looking for vindication makes me think there is!!

[helmet fire]

An intro lesson? Dont you guys teach ab-initio flying by setting an attitude on the horizon?
Why would anyone expect that to be achieveable in poor viz and showers anyway? Kind of defeats the purpose of a "lesson".

[autosync]

Effects of controls is the first lesson.
If you only go flying on crystal clear days in the uk you aren't really ever going to achieve much!

[Garfs]

Autosync

Think what you like, you are entitled to your own opinion.

If you think I am lying about something or whatever then so be it, but that would do me more harm than good.

And does that justify him saying he doesnt care because I am probably going to America anyway?

We all get annoyed, I do too at work at customers but I have never lashed out like in my own workplace as I have a level of professionalism to maintain. I work in recruitment and people I book in for interviews etc very often mess me about but I am not rude to them.

Garfs

[Whirlybird]

Effects of controls is the first lesson.


Yeah, right. And you show the effects of controls by teaching the student to use a reference point in the cockpit and the natural horizon...don't you? And have you ever tried to do that with a complete beginner with no horizon because you're peering through haze or light rain? They can't do it. They need crystal clear days to start with; then later on they can learn to do it in worse weather. It's called not trying to run before you can walk.

[autosync]

Garfs, I am not accusing you of lying, I am just reminding others who have condemned this guy to remember there are 2 sides to every story.

Whirly:
When there are showers passing through, more often then not, there is clear weather in between.
If a qualified FI (and presumably experienced FI) thinks that it is ok to fly, Who are you to come on here and condem him for poor judgement without knowing the full facts?

[thecontroller]

quote:
"One piece of advice I was given (which may, or may not be fair) was to find an instructor who instructed because he wanted to rather than who was hour-building to get onto the more "exciting" aspects of flying."

mmm.... i think you will struggle to find many instructors what -really- want to do it. i would say 60% accept that is what they have to do to build hours, and they apply themselves to it, 20% love it and stay with it, and 20% hate it and cant wait to move onto bigger things

dont judge this instructor too harshly. yes, students are "the customer". but they are also the general public, and liable to be idiots. i've forgotten the number of trial lessons who haven't turned up at the school (ie not even called to cancel).

the life of a low-time UK instructor is sometimes not a pleasant one, battling a small (old-boy-network?) industry, flooded with ex-military types who hoover up the decent turbine jobs, the rip-off CAA, the crap weather, driving all around the country just to get hours and struggling to pay off 50 grand worth of debts

ask yourselves this - who has never had a bad day at work?

[Whirlybird]

When there are showers passing through, more often then not, there is clear weather in between.
If a qualified FI (and presumably experienced FI) thinks that it is ok to fly, Who are you to come on here and condem him for poor judgement without knowing the full facts?

autosync,

Concerning showers, that is of course true. But I was responding to your comment If you only go flying on crystal clear days in the uk you aren't really ever going to achieve much! A day with showers can be crystal clear, but possibly not.

Please find the post where I condemned the FI for poor judgement. I did not do so, as far as I recall. I condemned his attitude to a potential student IF AND ONLY IF it was as described. Of course, I only have the facts as given here, and no way of checking them. And bearing that in mind, it would be quite appropriate to say on here that if the facts were as given, in my opinion someone exhibited poor judgement. And, of course, if later information showed that something different occurred, then I would change my opinion.

If you only want something proved beyond all doubt before you can comment, Rotorheads would die tomorrow. :(

[Garfs]

[QUOTE=autosync]Garfs, I am not accusing you of lying, I am just reminding others who have condemned this guy to remember there are 2 sides to every story.
QUOTE]

Fair point. There IS always 2 sides to a story, and obviously he has his.

This is obviously my side as I saw it which does not benefit me in any way by posting here as I am not out to name and shame.

Anyway, as I say, I am just looking forward to my lesson.

Garfs

[cl12pv2s]

I must say, that even before reading Autosync's posts, my sentiments were that this is a very loaded and one-sided thread. In fact I was amazed at how people immediately jumped to the defence of Garf without considering that fact. Assumptions were made left, right and centre with very little basis.

Again, I definitely am not trying to slur Garf. Of course he has a right to good service and is perfectly entitled to make his own judgement and spend his money where he chooses. But as Autosync, am simply seeing another possible side to the whole situation.

cl12pv2s


To: Joe Bloggs
Hello Joe,
How are you? I've had a terrible week. You remember Jack, my son. Well his eyes have worsened and he will probably be blind for the rest of his life. I think I'm going to have to sell the other 10 kids to scientific experiments if I can't bring some cash home soon. Life's been so bad since the Pit closed and my wife ran off with the milkman.

Well to top it all, here's what happened the other day.

This guy came and booked a flight with me. He seemed like a nice guy; very honest. I had planned to go to the charity run in France in aid of 'Abused Children' on Saturday, but the only time this guy could fly with me was that same Saturday, so I changed my flights to fit him in before I left. Cost me a couple of hundred pounds!

Well, I had just got off the phone with the travel agent, when the guy rings me up and says that he couldn't make that Saturday, could we fly on the Friday after! OK I said. I didn't tell him that Friday was my busiest day, and always begins with a visit to the Old People's Home to visit my infirm grandmother, followed by a trip to the Salvation Army to give soup to the homeless. And that's all done before breakfast, after which I work a full schedule with flight students. Well, someones got to pay for the new pair of glasses for young Jack.

I asked him to call me on Friday morning, as I knew that there was a front passing through. So on that Friday morning, the weather seemed ok, so I got the aircraft out, preflighted and fueled and I get this call from the guy again. We had a discussion, and I told him the weather was well within limits for training. Yes, there were a few scattered showers expected which were reducing visablity slightly, but typically with unstable air, the vis is good. No problem I told him, we'll just fly around the showers. You'll be able to see for miles! It'll be fun I said. But he didn't want fun...so I said, "You can't be too serious on your first flight. Go out and enjoy it!"

Well this guy started having a go at me, and told me that he didn't trust my judgement on the weather and wanted to reschedule again.

Just as I was explaining that it was safe to fly, another helicopter passed overhead, so I had to shout into the phone.

I said to him, "It doesn't make a difference to you anyway. As you mentioned, you were thinking of going to America to do most of your training. The weather is great there, you'll have ample opportunity to do some fair weather flying. I really hope you enjoy it." I think the last bit got drowned out by the noise.

Anyway, the guy slammed the phone down on me.

I tried to go out of my way to accomodate this guy. Isn't it amazing how some people think they can treat us like that and forget that we have lives and livings to make too!
Hmm...is it just me or do you think he was having a bad day?

[mongoose237]

Well yes, people have good days and bad days and that doesn't necessarily make them a bad person or not fit to instruct. But we aren't going to congratulate someone for having a bad day; I think most of us were just reassuring Garfs that if he didn't want to spend his money that day he didn't have to, even if Garfs had the feeling that the instructor was irritated by that.

Its the nature of the game as a freelance instructor - some days it falls in your lap, other days no matter what you do you're walking home empty handed.