Did BEA/BA ever operate 727's?

[flash8]

I've always found it interesting that the flag carrier has never operated a 727? Anybody know the reasons behind this?

I am assuming that the Trident effectively negated using the 727 (and 737) for short-haul work (although BA took 737's later on), and by the time the Trident was considered for replacement (1977 I believe however the last BA line operated Trident flew in 1986?) the 757 came along and thus replaced the Trident for the sort of routes it undertook.

[treadigraph]

BA leased an American Transair (I think) 727 for a while around the mid-80s. So far as I recall it was in the ATA scheme with BA titles?

If memory serves, the final Trident service was flown 31/12/85?

[Tiger_mate]

A transair 727 was operated out of Glasgow, but several 727s were operated in South Africa (Cape Town) in BA colours:
http://photos.airliners.net/photos/middle/3/5/8/0099853.jpg
Transair photo taken in 1988:
http://photos.airliners.net/photos/photos/2/9/1/0082192.jpg

[BEagle]

In 1996/7, Comair's Boeing 727-230 aircraft were repainted in ba 'World Image' livery and flew many routes in South Africa:
ZS-NOU, ZS-NOV, ZS-NZV, ZS-OBO and ZS-NVR.

They are the only Boeing 727s to have carried a ba livery. Although that ATA jet looked very pretty!

And yes, the last trip for the Trident was on 31 Dec 1985 when the last two Trident Threes G-AWZO and G-AWZU made simultaneous landings on parallel runways at Heathrow. New noise regulations came in on 1 Jan 86; the Trident was unable to meet them.

With acknowledgements to Keith Gaskell's 'British Airways - Its History, Aircraft and Liveries'. Oh - and thanks for signing my copy after we got back from taking the last ex-BOAC Standard VC10 on its final journey to be scrapped!

[chevvron]

The switch of BA from Trident to '737 began in '78. My ex-wife was secretary to the Training Manager on Tridents, and he became Training Manager for '737's, having made one or two trips to Seattle for familiarisation.

[treadigraph]

Cheers, my memory serves better than I thought! I seem to recall being at Manchester Airport in late December '85 and great excitement from the local Spotters as the last Trident flight was operating out of Manchester that day.

Chevvon, remind me, first 737s arrived in early 1980? Did you know Alan Bevins? (Not a pilot).

[chevvron]

Not exactly sure when they first arrived, may have been late 79. I only knew one or two in Queens Building; ex wifes boss was Roger Neaves.

[Golf Charlie Charlie]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the first one or two 'British Airways' 737-200s in service actually leased from Transavia of Holland. This was before the first deliveries under BA's own large 737-200 order. 1979/1980 sounds about right.

[HZ123]

You are correct they were leased from transavia.

[jabberwok]

If my memory isn't going ape I think the B727 wasn't certified in the UK until quite late in it's career - was it Dan Air that took the plunge first?

Cost of certification has resulted in a few absences from the UK register and some aircraft appearing very late in their lifespan. We didn't see many Convairs here (probably too much local competition though).

Was the Electra another very late entry? Any before the current AA batch?

[Golf Charlie Charlie]

I think BEA management in the early/mid 1960s actually wanted the 727, but they were required to order the Trident to support an otherwise unsellable aircraft. By the time the larger Trident 3 came along, they did more or less get what they wanted.

[jabberwok]

Surely it was the other way around?

The Trident and VC10 were the last two aircraft designed specifically from an airline's specification (BEA and BOAC).

[Golf Charlie Charlie]

Surely it was the other way around?
The Trident and VC10 were the last two aircraft designed specifically from an airline's specification (BEA and BOAC).


True. As for the Trident, it was (I think) conceived in the late 1950s in response to a BEA requirement. However, when the Trident 1 was ready, BEA (or at least some elements within BEA) wanted a somewhat larger airframe (the 727-100 was flying by then) and actually would have preferred the 727. Of course, they were not allowed to cancel Trident orders.

In the case of the VC-10, BOAC found the VC-10 more expensive to operate on a seat-mile basis over the 707-420, while the hot-and-high advantage which the VC-10 certainly had was of limited use on most of the airline's network. So while BOAC were forced to buy the VC-10 initially, the later larger order for 30 Super VC-10s was cut back to about 16 or 17, and 707-320s were ordered instead.

[HZ123]

In the 80's working in Speed-ird House I recall many of the great and good had offices full of liveried BEA / BOAC / BA of such models as the A310 A300 DC10 (which they got by default) Fokers and a range of DC9's, I wonder who has these models now?

[JamesA]

GCC,
To go along with your theme, I recall a story from Seattle. It seems Boeing and potential customers couldn't decide on the design of the 727, i.e. whether to have two or four engines. A visit to de Havilland, (where by Boeing's admission) they were given unbelieveable freedom of access to the Trident, settled the design on three rear mounted engines. A configuration completely alien to Boeing, but it sold extremely well. My hosts admitted they thought a lot of the features of the 727 could be attributed to Trident ancestry.

For the VC10. I am told it enjoyed a large measure of its success belonged to the North Atlantic routes, where passengers, particularly Americans would wait to ride the Iron Duck, because it had superior ride comfort to the Boeings.
Now had RR taken their test-bed a stage further and put two RB211s, perhaps we could have enjoyed a VC10B or would it have been VC11? (it's nice to dream).

The Brits could (probably still can) design aeroplanes, just a pity so many constraints have been placed upon them.

[Opssys]

I was interested to see that British Airways did (at least in wet lease form under a US Registration). operate a B727 in the UK. Very Pretty it looks too as do the Comair Examples.

Dan Air staff member (name unfortunately forgotten), once told me the UK certification of their aircraft was a 'nightmare' but overall they got a good deal on the Aircraft.

Trident - The design was to a very specific BEA Requirement, including the Engines had to be Speys. Although I have heard (possibly an 'urban myth') that when the design team first started they proposed a much larger Aircraft than the Trident 1 and the design was fatally (from a commercial viewpoint) scaled back to accommodate the BEA strictures.

VC10 - This time to a BOAC requirement. The result beautiful, loved by Passengers, Engineers, Pilots, in fact everyone except those who had to pay the bills. But BUA did make money out of them on the South American Routes (which annoyed BOAC who hadn't - The Falklands War was extremely costly as the Company continued to fly to Chile avoiding Argentina) and the East African Routes.
BUA had a 'premium' charter contract with a New York company, which continued until BCAL withdrew the VC10's. The Charter Company then cancelled the contract!

Other than the very sad case of G-ARTA (which is too sad to repeat here), the one VC10 Story that deserves the widest audience is G-ASIX The Andes incident (text from the VC10 Web Site):

During a flight across the Andes from Chile to Argentina G-ASIX got caught in a patch of clear air turbulence above the mountain peaks. The aircraft was thrown up on to its side at a 90-degree-plus back angle ant then tossed, headlong, nose down towards the peaks a few thousand feet below. (The mountains reaching up to 27,000 feet placed them close at hand.) The severity of the upset caused the PCUs (power control units) on almost every flying control surface to be knocked out of action leaving the crew with an airplane plummeting downwards at speeds approaching Mach 1. With very little control authority the crew managed a recovery, resetting the other PCUs along the way. The airplane landed safely at its destination and after a thorough ground check was despatched on its next flight back home to Gatwick. Only there did detailed engineering inspection reveal a fracture in one of the tail-fin support spars, which required a lengthy repair.

The incident proved the strength of the VC10 airframe as other aircraft in similar situations have lost structural integrity and crashed. On an airliner with wing mounted engines the engine mounting pins would probably have snapped as the aircraft was spun around.

DIH notes: I believe there were several broken Ankles amongst the Cabin Staff, but that could be another 'urban myth'.

DIH

[Golf Charlie Charlie]

The mountains reaching up to 27,000 feet placed them close at hand.)

Regret nitpicking in an otherwise great story, but it wouldn't be that high, maybe 22,000 tops. I think no land anywhere on earth outside of the Himalayas goes higher than 22-23,000 feet.

[Conan the Librarian]

Dan Air staff member (name unfortunately forgotten), once told me the UK certification of their aircraft (727) was a 'nightmare' but overall they got a good deal on the Aircraft.

Largely to do with the fear of of deep stall and the resultant, mandatory CAA requirement of having to install a stick pusher. Cost a small packet I believe.

Conan

[jabberwok]

I recall flying to Santorini on a Dan Air 727. The cabin staff hadn't been briefed on the arrester wires lying on the runway so there was quite a commotion when several bangs were heard on landing. :ooh:

I'll admit that I was surprised just how loud they were myself..

Sorry - I digress.

[barit1]

The American Transair aircraft (lower photo in post #3) appears to be a 727-100, based on the elliptical #2 inlet.

[Opssys]

Re Mountain Heights - GCC -I should have spotted the anomaly when I copied the story over, but as it is not my Web Site, so I'll let you tell him :-)
When I first heard the details a long while ago I think I was told the Aircraft dropped around 13000 feet, so may be it levelled out at 27000.
Anyway GCC a well spotted 'error'.

Back on 727s - Have worked out I've only actually been on two both on US Domestic Routes. For some reason I am more than a little surprised that I did so few journeys on that type and never managed a trip on one of Dan Air's!
DIH

[Sir George Cayley]

I remember a brief series of subcharters LON- MAN with a B727 wet leased to BA or whatever they where called in t'olden days. But t'wasn't Comair or Air Transat.

Blowed if I can remember the airline though. Oldtimers disease.

Sir George Cayley

[HZ123]

Slightly aside of the subject what became of the last two brit regestered 27's with Cougar after they went to the states.

[airspeedsalive]

Good call on the TZ 727 it was a -100. I started with them in 1988, I believe we operated for BA in 89 or 90? I remember at the time, it was the only 727 operated on behalf of BA. I didn't realize any other company flew the 727 for them. Good times

We also flew for Paramount around the same time and someone else too, but the other company escapes me right now

Blue Skies

[WHBM]

N284AT leased to BA for 3 months 1 May to 29 July 1988.
N287AT leased to BA for 3 weeks 27 Aug to 16 Sep 1990.

N287AT and N289AT leased to Paramount May to Aug 89

regarding the old Cougar fleet ;

BNNI roaded from Southend to Denmark where it is on display.
BPND still with Amerijet Cargo
OKJN the same
OPMN dumped in Tucson

[Local Variation]

Sorry to jump the thread around, but one thing always intrigued me about the good ol' Trident.

Why was the nose wheel off-set to such an extent ?

[Kieron Kirk]

The off-set nose u/c on the Trident prevented the tyres from running over the centre line runway lights due to the accuracy of the Autoland system!

No!

The u/c retracted sideways to stbd if memory serves me right.

[treadigraph]

KK, your memory is in tune with mine... but I like the runway light scenario!