Progress or just potential? (Typhoon)

[Jackonicko]

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=117520

A picture tells a thousand words......?

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=117520

[Pontius Navigator]

And the Victor could carry 35 000 lb of bombs. So the point is . . .?

[Safeware]

Jacko,
Things going quiet?
The same stores config (if not the same sortie) as you posted on 23rd Feb here:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2411870#post2411870
sw

[Jackonicko]

A flimsy excuse to post the pic, which I thought jolly fine (shame it didn't work - though I posted the [IMG ] and [/IMG ] instructions) and perhaps with an element of fishing to it.

[BEagle]

A fine piccie indeed, Jackonicko:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Bombphoon.jpg

Mit acknowledgements to Key Publishing und whoever das Foto taking voz!

[Jackonicko]

Blimey Beags, how come it works for you and not for me?

But thanks guv'nor.

I found it strangely inspiring. Four BVRAAM, two SRAAM, three tanks and four PWIIs. Quite a loadout. Bet there are plenty of envious Tornado/Jag/Harrier boys....

[BEagle]

Ve haff vays.....

Und if ve need a little more gas...

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/mrtt2.jpg

Airbus A310 MRTT - The World's only 21st Century Transport Tanker

[soddim]

It is inspiring, Jacko. Reminds me of the F4 loadouts we used to stand in front of at air displays and show in our presentations.

Have to pour a little realism on the scene and ask how far can this load go and what are the carriage limitations.

However, if the release to service at least allows carriage already, it is a great step forward for all the money the taxpayer has coughed up.

[hotshots!]

"Bet there are plenty of envious Tornado/Jag/Harrier boys...."

Not really no.

1. If it had more internal fuel it wouldn't need the tanks.
2. BVRAAM is not ready.
3. Typhoon is not operational in the Air - Air role until next year (at best),
so as for carrying bombs, who knows?

[Pontius Navigator]

Soddim, whose tax payers? Is there a read across to all buyers or is the the German only load out?

[Roland Pulfrew]

2. BVRAAM is not ready.


Hotshots

Forgive me if I am wrong but those BVRAAMs look like Sparrow/AMRAAM rounds so the original post is technically correct. Meteor might not be ready, but then those aren't Meteor rounds!

[Jackonicko]

Did I say Meteor, did I? I meant BVRAAM in the generic sense, as Roly correctly surmised.

[BattlerBritain]

I thought the picture was of the latest Airfix kit.

Might just as well be!

[L J R]

PW 2 are soooo last century!

[Tarnished]

Sometimes I am really proud to be British, but when I see these sorts of stupid and ill advised comments from the floor I really begin to despair. Jacko does a good job to bring to our attention steady progress on one of the mainstays of your future RAF.
PN starts the crap by comparing it to the Victor, FFS!
Safeware spots the fact the Jacko has posted similar images previously, fair cop, but don't knock Jacko's support for the programme
Jacko/Beags sort out IT issues
Beags then tries a slight hikack
Soddim plays the "Beags used to fly F-4s" tack to ask about range and limitations and confuses RTS (service) with AWFL (test/development) but does acknowledge a step forward - Jacko's point I think.
Hotsnot tries to make 3 "points" to assuage Torn/Jag/Harr envy.
1. Which tactical aircraft go to war without external tanks (A10?) The only time you can have too much fuel is when you are on fire.
2. BVRAAM is a capability not a particular missile, duh!
3. How operational are Jag/Harr/GR4 in the air-air role? Typhoon WILL BE operational in both roles, something not possible in the other platforms.
Pontious Nav there is read across, only non-UK bit in this photo is the outboard IRIS-T missiles
Roland, FYI Sparrow has much bigger fins
BattlerBritain Thanks for the well educated and informed input - FFS!
LJR What would you have until PW IV then?
Come on guys, I know you know better. Is it just the "instant" nature of the world we live in today that makes you think you can produce a fully operational multi-role aircraft overnight and equip squadrons in 4 nations?
Don't forget that in the configuration as shown the jet also has, chaff, flares, DASS and towed decoys to name a few other bits.

Time for lunch, blood sugar level a bit low.... can you tell.

Tarnished

[sooms]

Looks impressive..
Forgive my ignorance, but could the typhoon in that fit drop the LGB's itself? (no designator pod?) or would it need a buddy spike?

[BEagle]

Sooooooo sorry I posted the picture, Tarnished.

Didn't realise you Boscum Girls were so sensitive.....

[Hong Kong Fuey]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but these look like GBU-16s to me. This would make this thread somewhat irrelevant to the UK (not flaming you, Jacko, just pointing it out).
HKF.

[Tarnished]

Beags,

I Was grateful for you helping Jacko out in posting the picture, didn't see the point of the Tanker picture however.

And BTW "Boscum Girl" I am not and have not been for gone 8 years now.

I am now one of 't wicked Baron's offspring now albeit not on this project at the moment.

HKF,

Ah, the old nomenclature question, in my Observer's Book of Bombs, GBU-16 can be a PW II.

Sooms,

Being a bit pedantic, but yes in this config Typhoon can drop (your word) an LGB, but yes it would need that buddy spike to guide it to its final target. The designator pod will replace either the centreline tank or front left AMRAAM (been away from the programme for a bit, not sure what the current plan is)

T
Tarnished

[Jackonicko]

Tarnished,

My understanding:

Austere A-G capability: Litening 3, centreline, sequential (not simultaneous)
FOC: Undecided LDP, in BVRAAM recess, simultaneous.

Hong Kong Fuey,

The German IPA is flying with GBU-16, the UK DAs and IPA will fly with UK PW II. I believe that there's a degree of read-across.

[Safeware]

Tarnished,

Woz up?

I was just wondering why Jacko was posting something that obviously even he realised wasn't 'news'. I didn't knock his support.

As for the title of the thread, yes it is both progress and potential, because we know what is still going on to develope the aircraft.

sw

[Tarnished]

Woz up?

Well I guess you're right, bit of an overdramatic response. Been another frustrating week in JSF land. Its friday I guess so time to chill. Just thwarted at every turn it seems. Don't like seeing a good product being slagged off.

I'll go and take my medicine.

T

[BEagle]

The point I was making was obviously too subtle...

Why bother with all those draggy external tanks when there's a very nice Airbus A310 MRTT to give you the gas you need instead.....

Horrible to see such a fine AD machine as the TypHoon carrying air-to-mud ordnance.

Have fun in Spamland trying to sort out the 'low cost' JSF!

[Tarnished]

Sorry Beags, missed the subtle approach (been away from Blighty too long I guess - not many subtle things in Texas!)

"Have fun in Spamland trying to sort out the 'low cost' JSF!"

Yeah right, as soon as I've done that I'll fix world poverty, hunger and find a cure for cancer and the common cold.

[BEagle]

After which, teach the buggers how to brew decent beer!

[cokecan]

hi,

first post here, looking for some very general Typhoon information.

i'm wondering if - rather than when - typhoon might replace the Tornado F3's in the Falklands and in general terms how long it will be before a handfull of fully A2G capable typhoons will be able to enter service - and whether Typhoons in RAF service be fitted to carry anti-shipping missiles.

i realise that this sounds like the number one question from Argentina, but i was wondering if open source information can answer these questions.

cheers,

CC

[soddim]

Now, if the Argies invaded the Falklands again, or at least threatened to, that might just get typhoon development moved up a few notches.

That would make me proud to be British again - something happening overnight (apart from turning good ale into a hangover).

[Tarnished]

Now, who is Cokecan really? Obviously an F3 mate really, most certainly on the FI right now. If really searching for answers they are out there on the web..

Go fish

T

[cokecan]

sadly not an F3 sausage jockey, just an Arrser.

i'll fish....

[Pontius Navigator]

cokecan, the first question is easy. Just look at the F3 drawdown rates. The second set of questions is easy to pose and the answer is in the GR4 drawdown rates.

One is quicker and the other is so far in the future to defy precision - in other words it can slip or slide.

[Hong Kong Fuey]

Jacko,

The read across for GBU-16 to UK PWII is that GBU 16 uses what is known generically as a Paveway 2 kit, i.e. it utilises a laser detector attached to 'bang-bang' fins on the front, and the back end has cruciform fins that extend from the weapon post release. The major difference, and the one that makes the trial irrelevant for the UK is that the kits are attached to totally different bombs. GBU-16 attaches a 'pwII' kit to a Mk-83, whilst UK PWII (my capitals) attaches the kit to the venerable UK 1000lb-er. These bombs are very different in size and shape (albeit they weigh pretty much the same), have different fuzes and will have ballistic profiles, hence they will fall off the jet differently!

From the above you could also deduce that our pwII kits would not fit onto a GBU-16, and from this you could see that pwII is more of a class of weapon rather than a specific bomb. It is just unfortunate that the UK decided to call their's by the same name.

HKF.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Roland, FYI Sparrow has much bigger fins


Tarnished, thasnks for that. Not being a missile spotter myself I wasn't sure - just please to see progress on this aircraft. Spoke to a few of the guys flying it the other week and they all think the jet is awesome. Now if only we could find the money for Tranche 3 and the weapons integration we will have a winner.:ok:

[BEagle]

Indeed so, Roly.

A few years back, we did some TypHoon AAR on the IoM towline. The first unplugged with full internals, dropped back to retract the probe, then smoked past and up to FL500-ish. Reported level and working in the block FL 460-FL 5something0 a few seconds later. Second mate did the same, but was told to stop climb 'not above FL460 - similar type working above!'.

One wonders when such an instructon had last been given to a UK military jet?

[LowObservable]

Well, they'll need a different LDP for their export customer (unless you can persuade them that it's really from Northrop Grumman). If the US decides to be balky, they'll have to go Damocles. But that's just the stuff you run into when you try to run a medieval theocracy in the 21st century.

[LowObservable]

After which, teach the buggers how to brew decent beer!

You're too harsh this time - there are domestic alternatives to the mass-market making-love-in-a-punt stuff.

[Roghead]

Too, too much, LO. You'll be claiming that the liquid produced in CA is not only for cleaning the silver but also for drinking!
I wish I was a young pilot in the RAF with Typhoon just arriving.:)

[LowObservable]

Microbreweries!
The best British invention to be adopted widely in the US since the jet engine and the magnetron. (Except it took the US to work out that the best use of the magnetron was not to shoot down Dorniers or bomb the #$@* out of Hamburg, but to warm up your leftovers for lunch.)

[Navaleye]

Do you mean the Cavity Magnetron?

[foormort]

Say what you like about the Typhoon, if I had my pick of UK FJ ac to fly there would be no doubt in my mind, Typhoon top of the list. I hope they thrash out all the JCA issues so at some point in the future we have a real modern multi role capability. Imagine the role disposal at Valley 2015, feel sorry for the bloke who gets Predator or GR4.

[cokecan]

i read - on Wiki - that the tranche 1 block 5 RAF AC's will have some A2G capability (Litening Laser Designating Pod and Enhanced Paveway II G/LGB).

based on this i have two more questions.

the first is could you in an emergency use old style SNEB unguided rocket pods and unguided HE/Cluster bombs on the T1B5 AC as well? (assuming that the 'plumbing' for such systems is pretty basic, if you can hang AIM9L's off a Nimrod for the Falklands then hanging rocket pods from a Typhoon can't be that difficult...)

and secondly, could such an A2G capable Typhoon based at MPA be considered capable of detering any future Argentine aggression or if neccesary punching a big whole in an invading argentine fleet or landed forces?

oh, thirdly, is their any reason - bar cost and overstretch - that the RAF only has F3's at MPA?

Cheers, CC.

[RileyDove]

I think CRV-7 could be used quite successfully with minimum hastle. I can't recall off th top of my head if any SNEB's are still within the system.
As for the Falklands - think of the Tornado's as a flag waving exercise with the escort duty for incoming PAX aircraft as and when required. I cannot foresee a serious threat to the Falklands at present.

[BEagle]

SNEB cans? SNEB cans?? Do those things really still exist?

Chivenor :hmm: 1980. We did strafe, 10deg DB and level bombing. At Brawdy they did strafe, 10 deg DB and 15 deg SNEB. I recall flying to Brawdy once and being asked to do a range recce at Pembrey on the way back. Weather was OK for level bombing, out of limits for dive. Which rather summed up SNEBbery - fine if the Wx was OK, but it often wasn't...

Mind you, I did enjoy hoofing off SNEB rockets from Hunters back in 1976 at Pembrey. "In Hot"..., sight piccie OK, uncage, pickle, pull up and watch the smoke out of the corner of your eye, then wrist in, wrist out, quick look in the mirror, level, 4G pull, get the score, wait for the ship, another 4G pull, faff with the cine mag, oops, watch you don't cross the railway, another 4G pull..... Such fun!

23 Mar 76 Hunter T7 XL577 Capt: F/L 'Scruff' Oliver (+ Self) Ex WR1 0:50

He even gave me the landing!

[SirToppamHat]

cokecan
oh, thirdly, is their any reason - bar cost and overstretch - that the RAF only has F3's at MPA?


As opposed to what? Are you suggesting there should needs to ba an A-G capability based there?

STH

[cokecan]

err... given recent history, very recent argentine rhetoric and reports i've been reading here and on Arrse recently, think that it might be an idea.

what with the performance of A2A missiles against warships, landing craft, light tanks and dug in troops.:rolleyes:

[soddim]

Of course, Typhoo could use its' gun? Oops, didn't buy one?

[PPRuNeUser0211]

oooh soddim u've trodden on the gun minefield again...

I'll try and knock it on the head quick without being bated.... fitted with a gun but not intended for use unless required by operations....

[Safeware]

if you can hang AIM9L's off a Nimrod for the Falklands then hanging rocket pods from a Typhoon can't be that difficultandI think CRV-7 could be used quite successfully with minimum hastle.
It isn't that easy, given the relationship between ACS and FCS.
sw

[cokecan]

i realise that this is the most idiotic thing ever posted here, but i'll just go for it:

the pilot pulls a trigger on his joy stick and a little electrical pulse goes from the joystick to the pylon, the pylon then either lets go of the bomb or sends a second eletrical pulse to the rocket pod which then fires without any further help from its host.

the targeting is done by pointing the aircraft at what you want to hit.

this isn't that far from wiring a plug, it can't be that difficult.

[Jackonicko]

That's far from the most idiotic thing ever posted here, but it's a damned good effort for your seventh post! :ok:

[RIDIM]

i realise that this is the most idiotic thing ever posted here, but i'll just go for it:

the pilot pulls a trigger on his joy stick and a little electrical pulse goes from the joystick to the pylon, the pylon then either lets go of the bomb or sends a second eletrical pulse to the rocket pod which then fires without any further help from its host.

the targeting is done by pointing the aircraft at what you want to hit.

this isn't that far from wiring a plug, it can't be that difficult.

I am not an armament specialist, but you I imagine you require some form of safety circuit to prevent inadvertant operation, the Flight Control System will require the knowledge that had weapon has fired (or hung up?) to adjust trim and fuel balance accordingly.

[cokecan]

That's far from the most idiotic thing ever posted here, but it's a damned good effort for your seventh post! :ok:

i thang youw!

[Safeware]

this isn't that far from wiring a plug, it can't be that difficult.
You obviously haven't seen the plug that defence contractors the world over would try and sell you. :rolleyes:
Seriously though, while on some aircraft it may be little more than putting in the correct wiring (inc the correct safety breaks and signals), modern ac (not just Typhoon) are a little more complex. The armament system needs to know such things as the type of weapon and mode of operation; it has to be able to pass it targeting info (possibly including downloading a new flightplan) and it has to be able to manage the location, firing sequence and balance of a range of different stores. It then has to communciate this information with other aircraft systems - avionics (for control and display of cockpit info as well as receiving target info), propulsion (so the engines know when the are about to get a blast of hot gas), Landing Gear (so you can't go firing things on the ground) and Flight Control System (so it knows what is hanging off the aircraft and what happens when it goes off/doesn't go off as planned vs the appropriate control laws) and maybe some others. Other than that, it isn't rocket science :)
sw