Cancelled Projects

[FormerFlake]

Just wondering on peoples views on the TSR2 and Nimrod AEW. The 2 projects seem to stand out amongst the (many) failures.

Would the TSR2 really have been a world beater? Was there a need for the TSR2 then, and now?

Would the Nimrod AEW, without the many, many failures in project managment etc, have worked? Would it always been a poor second best to the E3?

???

[g126]

Such a shame about the TSR2.

Now there was a pro to stay in if ever there was one.

Shows what political medling does to the forces.

Now can anyone think of any receny examples of this......

[JFZ90]

Much as I like the TSR2, have to ask was the NA Vigilante a world beater? Pretty similar in many ways, and not partcularly noteworthy was it?

What we should be ask is why not a navalised Typhoon, thats what our £ should be going into, not JSF. Could have been done by now. IT/SP may have joined us given the chance. After all, the expensive stuff is really the Avionics (40% of cost, plus engines 40%), the airframe is only 20% of Typhoon invetsment to date, and WLC aspects are minimal, so once the NRC is done, thats it. OK changes would have been severe, but doable - JSF £2bn UK investment later, what have workshare have we got, the ejection seat, some UCS stuff and an ecosse laser. Is that it?

(PS I am aware the above is uninformed tosh).

[BEagle]

NimWACS would never have been as good as the E-3D. Apart from the radar snags and the lack of available fuel, the fuselage cross section was too small to accommodate the growing number of consoles which the E-3D can take.

It was a crock!

TSR2 would have comprehensivley outclassed the opposition as a low level strike aircraft. Once the undercarriage problems had been fixed and the engines had been developed, it would have been fantastic. Given the size of the avionics bay, the amount of gucci electronic toys it could have carried in later years would have been exceptional. But it suffered from Earl Mountbottom bad mouthing it and the incompetence of loonie Labour lefties in government.

One of the biggest crimes was the cancellation of the Mach 2.0 CF-105 Arrow by Diefenbaker on 25 Feb 1959. That really was a world beater and 5 aircraft had flown very successfully. But the program had been infiltrated by spies and the Spams didn't want the Canadians to outclass them. So the Boeing Bomarc missile was offered as an alternative at a time when the world was being seduced by spaceflight and the future of manned interceptors was in doubt. All traces of the aircraft fleet were destoyed - and most of the top notch design and construction team emigrated to the US.

Some say its legacy lived on in the MiG 25 Foxbat, thanks to the secrets stolen by the spies.

[chevvron]

Anyone else noticed a vague similarity between Duncan Sandys statement in 1957 and John Ried's in 2006?

[dervish]

I recall both AEW and RMPA having the same problem - very experienced RAF Nimrod engineers advising precisely what the problems would be, and being proved right many years later.

[Widger]

The most disgraceful cancellation was CVA01.The AEW was going to be conducted by the aircraft at the bottom of this page. http://www.stevenwillingale.com/cv/aew.htm and as you can see the technology was carried on to the NIMWACS project. Now that was a waste of money. The only thing left of the CVA01 project is the mighty fine HMS Bristol, sat in Portsmouth as a Harbour training Ship. Steam propulsion backed up with Olympus for sprint (COSAG) and armed with Sea Dart. The CVA01 and the Bristol Class wold have been a mighty deterrant only 3 years after the old Ark Royal was scrapped.

[MMEMatty]

The problem with the TSR 2, whilst it was a tremendous piece of engineering and an unbelievable showpiece for BAC (and the British aerospace engineering sector as a whole), it was a very expensive way to carry 6 iron bombs to a target, and did not really have the legs to be a true Vulcan successor.

My personal view (and one which i have said on here before) was that it is always nicer to be left with a "what might have been" than a "oh what a shame"

Matt

[abeaumont]

There was a rather good book on the subject, published a good thirty years ago, canned "Project Cancelled". Sadly I lent my copy to someone many years ago and never saw it again. Many interesting aircraft, including the helicopter that could not get off the ground, and the supersonic bomber - an Avro I think. Anyone got a better memory.....?

[abeaumont]

Sorry, I meant to type called, not canned...

[BEagle]

The flightless helicopter was the Percival P74. Ugly, even by helicopter standards, it convincingly proved that pigs can't fly.

The Avro supersonic bomber was the Avro 730.

[airborne_artist]

BEagle - The Percival looks as though it should have been a prop for the Teletubbies:

http://www.geocities.com/unicraftmodels/fut/futother/percival-p-74.jpg

[Pureteenlard]

Much as I like the TSR2, have to ask was the NA Vigilante a world beater? Pretty similar in many ways, and not partcularly noteworthy was it?

Two words; Bomb bay

[LowObservable]

I can just see the RFP for the Hawker P139B:

"The Admiralty is seeking tenders for a replacement for the Gannet A.E.W. The aircraft must above all be even more revolting in appearance than the Gannet, and if possible must be ugly enough to frighten small children."

Dead right on the A-5 weapons bay, which accomplished the dual goals of (a) being totally inflexible and (b) being catastrophically nonfunctional.

The TSR.2 was a very pretty aircraft (which quite frankly made it unusual for 1950s-60s in the UK) but if you look for old threads here, it has emerged recently that it was a long way and a lot of money from being operational.

[Heimdall]

Formerflake

You might like to read the following two articles that I've written on these two topics:

www.spyflight.co.uk/tsr2.htm
www.spyflight.co.uk/nim_aew.htm

Heimdall

[Pureteenlard]

Most 50's/60's british aircraft were ugly??

Seahawk?
Hunter?
Saunders-Roe SR.53 ( http://www.skomer.u-net.com/projects/sr53.htm)

OK, the Javelin and the Sea Vixen weren't the prettiest things flying but I wouldn't make such a sweeping statement myself . . .

[The AvgasDinosaur]

Dear all,
The biggest problem I have with the cancellation of TSR-2 and CF-105
is not the politicians who did but who told them to do it! I have always
thought there was more to it than simple political convienience,
expedience or stupidity.
Was it Soviet agents of influence because they were both too good or
American comercial interests because they were both too good?

As regards Nimrod AEW 3 It was so nearly fixed. I dread to think what will happen if an AWACS gets into the wrong hands. All our eggs in one basket. Scary!!
Any one got any thoughts on the P1154?
Be lucky
David

[tier2commando]

Lets be honest the F111 was the problem. Labour owed a lot of £s, and the only way the Government could get a loan from the world bank was by scrapping tsr2 , allowing the F111 to capitalise from our debts and american arms policy.

[The AvgasDinosaur]

Dear all,
Somethings never change and some people are still at it,
a quote from http://www.network54.com/Forum/211833/thread/1080423864/last-1080591063/Stealth+fighters+built+by+Britain+and+Ger
follows
"The United States keeps a close eye on stealth activity the world over. Washington is determined to maintain its lead in the field and is not afraid, on occasion, to jeopardize its relationship with key allies to ensure that it does. The Luftwaffe's Medium Range Missile Fighter or Lampyridae (Firefly) program, was terminated, according to German sources, soon after the appearance of a fact-finding party of US military officers to the MBB plant where work on the project was coming together.

Lampyridae is proof that Europe does have the ability to prototype in complete secrecy. Begun in 1981 and revealed only last year, Lampyridae progressed as far as wind-tunnel tests of a manned three-quarter scale model before the German government canceled the program in 1987. Though there is no evidence tying the US to that decision, German sources say the US Air Force was amazed -- and not a little rattled -- to discover that Lampyridae utilized the same radar-scattering "faceting" technique employed by the then top-secret F-117 Stealth Fighter. Unlike the F-117, Lampyridae was designed to go supersonic. It was this aspect, some German engineers believe, that led to a concerned Reagan administration exerting pressure on Bonn to ax the program."

Further details at http://www.f-104.de/exponates/english/exp_lampyridae_eng.html
Be lucky
David

[JFZ90]

Lampyridae was revealed at least as early as 1995, if not before. One of the wind tunnel models of it was in the Deutsches Musuem in the centre of Munich several years ago.

[Capt H Peacock]

The Miles M 52. Cancelled so that the Americans, and Chuck in particular, could do the sound barrier.

One of a long line of technological surrenders to Uncle Sam. Add to that the klystron, the jet engine, nuclear fission, the list goes on and on:{

[chevvron]

Seem to remember the HS 681 project of the early/mid '60's. This would have been a military jet transport similar in size to the C17. Cancelled by Labour at the same time as TSR 2. I think there was also a proposed version with 4 Pegasus engines giving it STOL capability.

[XR219]

There was a rather good book on the subject, published a good thirty years ago, canned "Project Cancelled"
There was also a second edition published in 1986 (Project Cancelled : the disaster of Britain's abandoned aircraft projects, Derek Wood, published by Jane's). I picked up a copy on eBay last year. Fascinating book.

[merlin505]

Originally posted by BEagle
One of the biggest crimes was the cancellation of the Mach 2.0 CF-105 Arrow by Diefenbaker on 25 Feb 1959. That really was a world beater and 5 aircraft had flown very successfully. But the program had been infiltrated by spies and the Spams didn't want the Canadians to outclass them. So the Boeing Bomarc missile was offered as an alternative at a time when the world was being seduced by spaceflight and the future of manned interceptors was in doubt. All traces of the aircraft fleet were destoyed - and most of the top notch design and construction team emigrated to the US.
Some say its legacy lived on in the MiG 25 Foxbat, thanks to the secrets stolen by the spies.
I saw a recent documentary about the development of the NAA Vigilante which said that it also heavily influenced the MiG 25. Apparently lots of shady russian types were taking photos at the North American Factory airfield where the development flights were done. With the exception of the twin tails (the russians were never much good at direction stability according to the documentary) the planforms especially are quite similar.

[West Coast]

Beagle

I'm still trying to figure out who shot Kennedy, was it the CIA, the ruskies or Fidel?

You seem to be in to these conspiracy theories, figured you might know.

[BEagle]

Kennedy who?


.

[Maple 01]

Ginga bloke, used to run the Lib-Dems

[West Coast]

George Kennedy. You know, the actor.

[BEagle]

Who?

The only Kennedy I've ever heard of (apart from the genial Chat Show Charlie of the LibDems) was the bloke who wrote "Kennedy's Latin Primer" - an instrument of prolonged torture at my prep school!

Was there some other famous Kennedy?

[Daysleeper]

this one! (http://www.sarahkennedy.********.com/)

[West Coast]

Kennedy's Latin Primer

That holds a special place on my mantel.

[Kitbag]

Ah, a cancelled language to discuss cancelled projects?

Can we get back on thread please? :ok:

[ORAC]

Hmmm, Amo, amas, amat, amamus, amatis, amant. Now that takes me back more than a few years. Did you know all Gaul is divided into three parts.... :\

[Gainesy]

"Kennedy's Latin Primer":uhoh: :{ :uhoh:

The Horror. A shocking blast from the past.

Wasn't the HS.681 more Herc sized, looked similar to a 146 but had something like 24 small lift engines?

[BEagle]

The delights of learning 'Gerundive attraction' at the age of 10! Tuesday was hell day at prep school in 1961 as it included a double Latin period......

a, ab, absque, coram, de......

ut and the subjunctive....

Not something I imagine is suffered by digi-yoof these days!

There were many different concepts of the HS681, anything from a V/STOL version to a version with a Comet 4 wing and engines. So you are all probably right!

Incidentally, Hawker's equivalent to the TSR-2 looked even more elegant than the BAC aircraft.

[FormerFlake]

So if comon sense had dictated the RAF would never have got:

Tornado F3
Tornado Gr (s)
Jaguar
Phantom
Lightning (maybe)

As we should have got he TSR2 and Arrow and the net result would be no Typhoon as we would have an all British replacement by now? Or where the days of all British aircraft goign to die anyway?

Would the TSR2 led to the Harrier Grs (all or most of) being retired once the Cold War ended? As capable as they are they are fragile, only one engine for a start.