Upset South African

[Juliet-Echo]

OK I'm not a regular poster but I have followed PPRUNE as an interested observer. I've resisted the temptation to reply to some of the contraversial threads regarding the aviation situation in SA, but some recent events have had some emotional influence on me.

Yesterday, "we" flew to George as a fill-in for one of the scheduled airlines, and as bad luck would have it, we had a technical problem, and had to cancel the return flight to JHB.

Being a keen cricket supporter, I went upstairs, at George airport, to watch the last few overs of the 5th ODI against Australia. The PAX in the departure lounge were all riveted to the flat screen and, I must say, the atmosphere was electric! Well, in my opinion, it ended up being one of the best events of all time. I felt proud to be a South African!

This morning, whilst waiting for the engineers to rectify the tech problem, I had a coversation with an ex SAA "big-wig", and was informed of the current situation in our national carrier - "They" are becoming desparately short of pilots, and apparently have their hands tied in employing anyone outside the "demographic" allocations.

Well, that counts me out - and I have been knocking at that door for quite some time. I've travelled a twisty aviation road and honestly feel that I've scraped my elbows enough to crack the nod.

What does cricket have to do with this? Did you see Mark Boucher and Makahya Ntini hug each other after that incredible victory?! Well, why doesn't this country stop dwelling on previous and present racial issues? Let's start using everybody in this country as a fellow resource and become a great nation. It's possible!

A previous thread by Afriaviation confirmed the fact that whatever racism occurred in the past is redeemable with the reverse! Nonsense! Yesterday's cricket game made me realise that - rather than "placement", let's have "encouragement"!

Come on, let's keep the standard high and set an example for all South Africans. Let's think about the macro-future and not the micro-future!

[makeapullup]

Well said, however by means of this post you are appealling to the wrong people. Those that can read and show an active interest in this industry (or country) are not the ones that can change anything! :( :( :(

PS, what luck with the broken aerie. Never again in our lifetime will we witness a cricket event like on Sunday. Surely Ponting will always be remembered as the captain that couldn't defend 434! Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.

Cheers

[cavortingcheetah]

:cool:

Just a teeny scuttlebutt post but:

I thought that when SAA joined up with Star Alliance it had to sign up, at effectively government level, to the Star Alliance charter.
This specifically prohibits an airline from allowing political interference or pressure to influence it with regard to hire and fire policies.
I thought that senior flight management at SAA had heaved a large and collective sigh of relief at finding themselves freed from the political interference heretofore imposed on it by the present South African administration. This interference had been an encumbrance which threatened cockpit safety by imposing a recruitment process on SAA based on rascist selection rather than one on ability.
If the above conceptions are not misconceptions then has SAA, having joined the Star Alliance in 2006, now blatantly disregarded the conditions for entry to which it was a signatory?
If SAA has disregarded or discarded these requirements then the matter should be brought to the attention of Star Alliance so that SAA's continued membership may be re-evaluated?

Details and contacts may be found at:

http://www.staralliance.com/star_alliance/star/frame/main_10.html

:E

[Shrike200]

Sorry, OT I know, but I was on approach into FAJS during the end of the game, a big thanks to ATC for keeping all aircraft informed. Appreciated by pilots and pax alike! Big cheers from the rear of the aircraft, was good fun.

Back on topic, thats a very interesting point you bring up CC - what are the chances that makes any difference to them however? :}

[HappyFlyer]

Well, I have to agree with all that was said above. The problem is that us little guys can only hope and pray that the big cheeses riding an incredibly corrupt and poorly run gravy train may just may change there policies!

I have been stuck on contract since time began! I have flown with many of these Cadets. Some really good guys and girls. But the sad thing is that the Government will not change there mind till it is too late! The cadets believe that it is there right to be there and lets be honest if I was handed my dream job on a silver platter would I complain, probably not.

The sad thing there are alot of broken hearted contract pilots who are sitting all over Africa in one dump or another that would give there left nut to be there. They have paid there dues. Contract is not easy and does not pay what is used to, thanks to certain companies who would rather rip off the staff.

In a nutshell. I have come to realise that I will never fly for SAA and lets be honest it is all many of us have wanted to do since forever. :yuk:

[whodunnit2]

Why don't you look a little farther afield and hand a cv in at places like Cathay or if you have jet time Emirates.

SAA is obviously a great place to work for a South African but trust me it isn't the be all and end all of aviation - far from it in fact.

I gave up on them a long time ago and am grateful that I did. My airline only has widebodies and yes it does have politics, as they all do, but not at the same entry level as Spoories.

If SAA is your dream hang in there. It has to change at some point I guess. If flying great machinery at a professional airline is your dream then you have a bunch of other choices.

Hey I even got to watch the entire match at the Wanderers from this end of the planet!!!

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Emirates require a minimum of 1000 hours of jet time. Not heard from Cathay yet but they have an age limitation as well.:(

[Blah Blah Fishpaste]

You gota hand it to the Aussies though, they are better losers than we are! Nice gesture from Ponting.

I thought Emirates was 2000 hours jet?:8

[Solid Rust Twotter]

I think it's 2000 small jet and 1000 above 20 tons. Could be wrong.

All this rejection gnaws at a man's soul.....:{

[Blah Blah Fishpaste]

If you go to the Middle east section here and read a bit about Emirates, or the guys flying there rather, they are bitching just as much! And they want out! I know you cant please everybody all the time, and we all go through bad patches where we are, so does anybody have info on how it really is for the Joe Soaps out there in the sand pit?
I think those complaining should come to SA and work here for a bit before they bitch again!

They forget very quickly where they started!

Thats right gents, keep whining and get out of my seat!:E

[birdlady]

The Irish Aviation Authority has approved 43 for JAA training. Cityjet is sending cadets to 43 to do the JAA CPL/Multi IR. Problem is the cost. 95 000 euros to be exact. Guys are going to come out of there with 300hrs max and then City Jet MAY take them on. As far as Im aware SAA or any of our carriers have never taken on pilots with so few hours. We may b8itch and moan but I'd rather have it the way it is now then have it the way it is in Europe.....how much money you have. Effectively your paying a company to work for them :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

F:mad:

[nugpot]

As far as Im aware SAA or any of our carriers have never taken on pilots with so few hours.

The SAA cadets arrive at the feeders with about 250 hrs. They do quite a lot of sim though before they go on line. I think more than 50hrs.

[Afriviation]

Redressing the imbalances of the past is not racism. Our country is heavily polarised with the pales occupying all the top jobs in the country and off course much so in Aviation.

The reality of the situation is that non pale people in SA are the majority and this must reflect at every job level. True some people are going to be hurt in the process, but if the situation is left like it is, the majority of the population will be hurt for the benefit of the few.

My only word of consolation to those that feel deprived is that look at the bigger picture, there's millions of South Africans who are jobless and something has to be done to redress the situation for a better socio-economic situation for all.

The problem we facing in this country and certainly in aviation is the notion of people only concerned about me, me, me and me.

Having said that, I still have to say despite the moaning, SA Aviation is very slow in transforming WE NEED MORE BLACK PILOTS IN THE FLIGHT DECKS OF THIS COUNTRY. And it does not take 20 or 50 years. It could be done in 5 to 10 years with openness and a commitment to do so.

So thumbs up SAA, Doing whats right for the country and not for a select population group like it's been for the most of this country's history.

After we have the right demographics, I'm sure I'll be the 1st one to invite all of you for a potjie and this time we can really laugh and chat and not this corporate pretence existing in our country today. Because the non pales are still mad about being deprived of so much for so long, and the pales are madder that the pie has to be shared by everyone in the country.

[reptile]

and the pales are madder that the pie has to be shared by everyone in the country.

Nope.....not quite the point......dissapointed in the level of incompetence appearing at all levels - in the name of "redressing the wrongs of the past".

[GormanInkarnati]

"rainbow nation"
"the country belongs to everyone"
"embrace our differences"
"unity through diversity"

What a load of HorseS@#$t

You -afri- and the ANC govermunt are exact copies of the pigs in "Animal farm"
"All animals are equal , but some are more equal than others..."

GI

[birdlady]

Gorman,

Even I find that increadibly offensive. :* :* :*

[Solid Rust Twotter]

BL, in context the farm was run by the pigs on the premise that everyone was equal except that the pigs and their cronies were more equal than other animals. Possibly similar to the current situation in SAA and other parastatals.


But you knew that....:ok:

[GormanInkarnati]

I don't think the Lady has read the classic "Animal farm" by the great author George Orwell http://www.novelguide.com/animalfarm/
GI

[fluffyfan]

Thats your problem Afri, you only believe the pie is so big, and now you must steal that pie and redistribute it..........why dont you go and grow that pie, make it bigger, and instead of breaking everything and running it into the ground, build things make them successful, then you can walk tall and say you have achieved something, stop wining about inequalities whilst standing there with an outstreached had (the true african greeting), why dont you be an entrepreneur and find a way to teach 1000's of non-pales to fly istead of expecting the government or pale owned training establishments to sponsor them

[Shrike200]

So thumbs up SAA, Doing whats right for the country and not for a select population group like it's been for the most of this country's history.

They are pretty much going for a 'select population group' right now - it wasn't right then, and it's not right now. Thats the whole point of this thread.

[Metro man]

To all the pales hoping for a [U]career[U] in SAA, forget it ! IF the airline is forced to take you on in order to keep planes in the air, or to have a few token whites for show you will be at a continual disadvantage because of your colour.

Friends of mine who joined Air Zimbabwe in the 1990s were told on joining that they were automatically junior to any black pilot who joined after them. Most of them accepted this, got 737/767 ratings + experience, and went overseas as soon as they could. Cathay, Gulf Air, Emirates etc.

If you can slip in to SAA, get a decent type rating and some experience, and then go somewhere else while the SA licence is still well regarded. Remember the scandal a while back about licences for sale ? How much longer until your CPL/ATPL has the same status as a Nigerian one ?

To those flying 1900s, Twin Otters etc who don't get in, there are still options abroad. May have to buy a type rating or work in China or India but it can still be done.

Consider retirement as well, look at the Zimbabwe pensioners. You will be in the same situation when you retire and the Rand has collapsed.

Be realistic, look at the rest of Africa SA will be no different.:(

[DrDiv]

Another lurker here for some time now... forced to join to respond to some of the drivel.

Sorry that my first post is going to offend some.


So, if I understand the logic, those of us who cannot control our breeding rate are *entitled* to more representivity?

What a load of carp.

Why is it that any sector should have a racial make-up that is representative of "the majority"?

Isn't this racism??

/rant

Ok, now I need a beer.

[Antman]

Afriviation

Here's the thing that get me. It's all very well saying that all jobs must represent the demographic of the country.

But puzzle me this?

I was fortunate enough to go to a multi-racial private school in the bad old days (1980's). Now at this school the demographic was about 35% pales and 65% non-pales. I was always an aeroplane nut and wanted to be a pilot from about the age of 3. Now all these non-pales I went to school with came from very wealth families, way more than what my oldman was worth.

Now to the point, how come out of all these non-pales I went to school with not one of them even considered being a lowly pilot when there parents could well afford it. No all of them are today Doctors, Lawyers, Accounts etc.
Whereas I am a pilot, but my parents could not afford all of it, so I had to work, to earn enough to learn to fly. I did anything that paid, loaded trains at Kaserne and eventually even became and ATC to help pay my way.

At no point did the taxman come to me and say "Here Antman, here's the money to become a pilot". The only people that got the training paid where in the Airforce (That was medically not an option)

With all this in mind I ask you Afriviation, why are the South African Flying Schools not brimming with young middle to upper class non-pales wanting to be pilots. MAYBE BECAUSE IT DOES NOT APPEAL TO THEM!!!!! They are off becoming doctors, lawyers, accountant etc and good for them because that is there right.

So now tell me again why the pale pilots should be discriminated against????

As for the cadet scheme at SAA it is the most corrupt thing I have ever seen.
I am all for helping youngsters who CAN'T AFFORD IT of all backgrounds to become pilots but as for most of the SAA cadets it's unfortunate to say but there parents could well have afforded it and passed the oppertunity on to those that need and deserve it.

Just for the record, I have not spoken out of jealousy or spite as I have done fairly well with my flying career. I was a B737 captain at 29 (Not NW) and am busy doing my command on a widebody with a very large foreign flagcarrier age 36(It's not all bad in the sandpit guys), so this is just an observation, not an axe to grind.

[reptile]

why are the South African Flying Schools not brimming with young middle to upper class non-pales wanting to be pilots. MAYBE BECAUSE IT DOES NOT APPEAL TO THEM!!!!! They are off becoming doctors, lawyers, accountant etc and good for them because that is there right.


Right on the numbers Antman!! Well said.

[beechbum]

I'm probably going to be very naive here and all due respect to the Zimbos who visit this website but quite honestly do you think SA will go down the proverbial toilet as quickly as you all say it will and as fast as Zimbobwe did. SA has vast infrustructures compared to Zim vast economies of scale vs the rest of Africa as a whole. So am wondering if it's all gloom. I know we see our roads and services deteriorating and everyone always says this is the beginning of the end. But is it? There is still development and growth in our country and compared to the rest of Africa, it far out shines it all!!!
I don't know but I would like to remain positive and continue to believe that SA is a good place to be!!! Maybe I have my head in the sand and not Afriman as I mentioned on another thread.....but hell some of us have got to stay positive.....hey!!!!
Now where's that bottle of whiskey so I can get my early morning shot to face the perils on the roads.....you know, the taxi's, the potholes and those darn Metro police always looking for that handout.
Viva SA Viva............!!!!!!!:E

[Shrike200]

Yes, well said.

But it's like Beechbum said on the other 'thread which will not die' - this guy has his point of view, and he'll stick to it, no matter what. Don't bother with reasoning, it's been tried.

He won't respond with anything resembling a logical argument, or with solutions to his perceived problems, other than "There should be more black pilots, make it happen for free and right away, it's only racism when whites discriminate against blacks, it's all somebody elses fault, waaaaa!"

[Metro man]

Beechbum, I remember the days when people said that Mugabe would look after the commercial farmers, "He's not going to kill the golden goose, he's realistic." Yeah right.

If determined to stay in Africa make sure you have foreign investments to live on and an escape plan just in case.

Sure S.A. may not go down as fast as Zim, but look at the track record of the non pales when I comes to governing themselves; Somalia, Liberia, Haiti, Papua New Guinea, Sudan etc etc:{

[Blah Blah Fishpaste]

I think metro man has got it right, get what time you can and keep your options open elsewhere so you can bail at any time if you have/want to.

I have flown with the cadets and there is a huge difference in those that really want to be there and those you say "eish , its a job". You'll be surprised as to how many dont make it and end up in office jobs. Or decide after their first bad weather experience, this is not for me, and just stop flying!

What a waste of money! SAA selection process is obviously bias and distorted for these positions.But its ok, its tax payers cash not theirs so phew!

My other gripe is that im sure the public dont pay SAA's heavy ticket price to be test subjects to a cadet throwing them around the sky and bounching them off the ground on landing.

Do you really want to work for an airline that will bypass you at command time and let the BEE fellow with a third of your experience sit in the left and call the shots?.....ummmmm...pass thank you.

[Juliet-Echo]

Thanks guys, it's been interesting reading all the replies. I am still quite amazed at Mr Afri - what worries me is that he seems quite well educated and his use of the English language is above average, but yet his argument indicates bigger blinkers than any race horse that I've ever seen!

I thought I was being fairly diplomatic in my first post. Mr Afri, I wish you would divulge how you managed to labour through your arduous journey to your present position - I can tell you that I (and a lot of other guys) have gone through immense sacrifice to achieve my dreams. This involves being away from my family for very long periods of time, and sometimes in very dangerous places.

How do you belive that your little Utopia can be achieved? (Sorry, but this reference to "pale" and "non-pale" makes me think that some of us are sick or something!) I am starting to believe that people with the like-mindedness of Mr Afri genuinely want the white population to emigrate from OUR COUNTRY! And as you can see by some of the replies from SA guys working abroad, it is happening!

Getting back to my original point - OUR national carrier is in a difficult situation. They need crew! The supply of suitably qualified black pilots has been exhausted. Yet they are still being prevented from hiring experienced white South Africans. Would you prefer to see non-South Africans fulfill the necessary slots, in order to obtain your colour quota? Nigerians etc?

Phew, this guy worries me! Maybe the okes who have left have got it right - there's no "Rainbow Nation" - just BLACK SUPREMACY!!

Sorry, Mr Afri, but you are a racist. It works both ways. As I said in my previous post - we can either treat each other as a resource, and build this country into a great nation by example, or give hand-outs like Uncle Bob next door. We all know how well that works!

Look, I'm just one of those suckers shouting for my flag and my country, and trying to make a living.

[B Sousa]

Redressing the imbalances of the past is not racism. Our country is heavily polarised with the pales occupying all the top jobs in the country and off course much so in Aviation.


Afri
I dont think the problem is redressing, its the manner in which its done. Your "Buds" seem to feel it can be done overnight........That aint gonna cut it.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Would you prefer to see non-South Africans fulfill the necessary slots, in order to obtain your colour quota? Nigerians etc?

Too late. Already happening...:{

[reptile]

Sorry, Mr Afri, but you are a racist. It works both ways.

To the point.......not emotional.......and 100% right. My hat of to you Sir.

[Woof etc]

Beechbum: When the president in waiting is being charged with corruption and rape one seriously starts to wonder. Maybe we're there already.

[oba_idan_amani]

See My reply in a new Thread "The Nigerian One".

Oba Idan Amani

[Metro man]

Oba, Nigeria has a reputation for corruption, along with fraud and drug trafficking. In the first world the mere mention of anything Nigerian rings alarm bells. Would you trust a letter of credit (supposedly) issued by a Nigerian bank for example ?

Bribery, or "dash" as you call it is ingrained in your culture to the extent were it is impossible to operate in Nigeria without it. This rightly raises the question of the integrity of your licencing system. How much for a peek at the ATPL exam papers ? To pass a flight test ? Even a complete licence issued on the strength of a forged foreign one.

And you wonder why Nigerian Airlines are banned from much of the worlds airspace.

I saw the transformation of Air Zimbabwe from an all white pilot group, to a mixed pilot group, to a now virtually all black pilot group.

Some of the issues worth mentioning were:

1. A group of black pilots (and one token white) were issued with ATPLs on the basis of a ministerial directive. They couldn't pass the exams which were based on the British system. Later on FAA ATPs became eligable for conversion so problem solved. Note the licencing officer T.W. a man of integrity resigned over this.

2. Senior training captain summoned to Prime Ministers office and accused of racism for not passing a black pilot as captain. Training captain sneekily failed an engine after take off and was treated to a close look at the control tower for his trouble.

This is the sort of thing SAA has to look foward to, if it's not happening already.

The Zimbabwe licence used to be highly regarded, and many pilots got jobs with Cathay, Australian Airlines, Singapore, Gulf Air etc .

With the large population base in Nigeria, there will obviously be some talented pilots in there. Provided he or she has a licence from a country were they can't be bought, such as Canada, New Zealand, UK etc, and is flying for an airline not under pressure to promote on race regardless of ability then I will happily fly with him/her.

Unfortunately blacks have shown themselves unable to successfully run a country, with one or two exceptions such as Botswana. Why does most of Nigeria's population live in poverty when it has vast oil wealth ? I am not a racist just a realist. In my new job I am going to be working for non whites (Singaporeans), now these people do impress me with their ability to run a country and an airline.

I used to live in Africa, saw the writing on the wall and got out thank God.

[reptile]

Unfortunately blacks have shown themselves unable to successfully run a country, with one or two exceptions such as Botswana.

oh my!.....this is going to stir the pot.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

I don't believe it has anything to do with skin colour. It's the culture of entitlement that is screwing the cat. Those at the top who have no fear of losing their positions due to the demographic are currying favour with folks who don't know any better to gain those votes. Alec Irwin is a prime example of spineless stupidity rampant.

It'll all end in tears....:(

[oba_idan_amani]

Well left to you, blacks should never rule any country. You guys in South Africa (wont like to generalise) will rather come and do it for us, wont you. Thank God this Apartheid thing was stop, its this damage the guys (SA government) are trying to put right. Am sure since your are convinced blacks are stupid, you will have been looking at conquering the whole of Africa by now. Then you will be able to fly their planes around, be worshiped by the blacks guys and be treated as God by the black guys (you ****).

I don’t see your point regarding credit cards and frauds on this thread. That is another issue entirely, which if we go into, then I will blame the guys that have fallen victims. Let me give you some explanation regarding this so called fraud. There is always someone who has come across some millions (illegally) that needs to be ferried across to some banks in Europe or somewhere. In some cases this is genuine and not in others. You get to hear about the cases that are not. I will say, why help transfer money from a poor nation outside the country, if you get scammed and complain, you should be thrown in Jail (Beheaded if I was the president)?

With regards to Nigerian licensing, then you are talking with your ass wide open on this one. For a start, Nigeria does not in itself issue ATPL (CPL, yes, after you have spent donkey years at Zaria). You go to a country like the UK, US, Canada or even SA, get your ATPL there, then it gets converted to a Nigerian ATPL. What ATPL exams are you talking about anyway.

Can you also please enlighten us on the airspace Nigerian airlines have been banned from operating. Bellview Airlines stills fly into London and India on Nigerian registered planes. Very soon, Virgin Nigeria will be de-registered and will be flying everywhere with Nigerian crew including the US (one the DOT agreements has been sorted out). Afri Air has the right to fly into Spain from Nigeria, and are in the process getting a A330 or B767 (to be Nigerian Registered) for this operation. ADC also has the right to fly into Brussels, again from Nigeria. What are you talking about men. Have you flown with Nigerian pilots ? They are everywhere, middle-east, SA, British Airways, KLM, Easyjet, Ryanair, Das etc.

I can not comment on Air Zim, but I hope one of the guys working over there can at least come up on this forum and say something. I know there will be two sides to the stories. I wont be surprise, if people with your ideas are the ones behind the downfall. If you believe you are African, why run away to Singapore, stay here in Africa and help change it.

With regards to Nigeria, being ridden with poverty, I cant dispute that, but it will change. The government is doing something about corruption, governors are arrested left / right and centre. Things are getting better, and we are here to put in our own quota. We will get there, Europe and America went through the same thing. We will survive.

Oba Idan Amani

[reptile]

Oba - do us a favour please. Stop posting you replies on both treads. The crap you write should really be confined to a single thread.

[oba_idan_amani]

Well, for a start, I did not start the posting on both Threads, I opened the new thread so that we could deal with the Nigerian issue there. This thread should have nothing to do with Nigeria. What do mean by the crap. You guys make me sick.:mad:

Oba Idan Amani

[reptile]

Well, for a start, I did not start the posting on both Threads,


Well, for a start.......yes you did. You've edited your initial posting and then made the above statement.

[oba_idan_amani]

You don’t know me so I wont even try and prove anything to you or your likes (dumb ass or not). If you have any facts about Nigeria then bring it on and I will reply to that.

Oba Idan Amani

[Metro man]

1. Nigeria Airways was banned from flying to the USA before it went bankrupt. Nine of fourteen airlines banned by Belgium and France from Africa http://www.etntalk.com/bannedairlines/finanmir.htm Premium Air Shuttle banned from Switzerland
2. Fraud, if a supplier accepts a bank draft from Nigeria that turns out to be forged, how is that his fault. Does happen
3. Under Apartheid black South Africans had the highest standard of living of any blacks in Africa, and a problem with illegal immigrants. What does that say about the rest of the continent ?
4. Do you seriously think anyone gets a Nigerian Pilots licence without having to bribe someone. If I want a validation of my ATPL what's the going rate ?
5. Virgin Nigeria, old whitey in the background calling the shots.
6. Anti corruption campaign = few small fish get arrested amid lots of publicity but nothing really changes.
7. Africa is a hopeless case and will not change in several generations let alone my lifetime. Stay there and p**s into the wind or get out into a region charging ahead - no contest !:E

[gb346]

If I may throw my penny into the fountain :
Firstly, SAA employment policies are in line with the constitution and that is the law of the land. In other words - racism has now become legalised provided its the "pales" that get shafted. This policy is going to eventually bite the very people its meant to be promoting - oh how sweet the victory will be.
Secondly, the way things are heading, Comair, OneTime and Nationwide are the airlines that are showing positive growth and if I may be so bold - with time and the continued S:mad:t management, SAA could shrink into one of the smaller airlines in the country all because of blinded policies and meddling by governmunt.
As for Afri-man?, Dark-man? Racist-man? - whatever you go by - why is it that after years of "freedom" and attempts to make the industry "open", there are so few black pilots in the US airlines????
Could it be that they are not interested, too much hard work, no aptitude or possibly that they are not passionate about flying like the majority of us???? It is not a career of choice and it is not a racist view but a fact, look at the middle east, africa, china - they have major programs in place to stimulate interest and yet all fall hopelessly short of their requirements.
Why is it that we don't find young black South Africans going to the airfields and flying schools to wash aeroplanes or help out where they can, just so that they can be in that flying environment??? Why is it that you expect someone else must pay to put these "non-pales" in "a job" when so many young SOUTH AFRICANS (who happen to be pale) slog their guts out over years hoping to get a break and do it for the love of aviation???? These are the motivated, passionate employees an airline needs to become a world beater, not a self-enriching individual who will change careers in a heartbeat if the offer is right. We need people who will outlast the mismanagement, the incompetent leaders and the deteriorating working conditions - someone with a passion for the job and the life.
You and your colouring in competition
You make me :yuk:

[B Sousa]

Well left to you, blacks should never rule any country. You guys in South Africa (wont like to generalise) will rather come and do it for us, wont you. Thank God this Apartheid thing was stop, its this damage the guys (SA government) are trying to put right. Am sure since your are convinced blacks are stupid, you will have been looking at conquering the whole of Africa by now. Then you will be able to fly their planes around, be worshiped by the blacks guys and be treated as God by the black guys (you ****).

Oba, dont let anyone tell you your stupid. You understand things perfectly....
Look back a bit... Nairobi used to have beautiful streets you could drive on. Rhodesia was one of the Agricultural leaders in Africa. South Africa, as modern as any..
Now all are transformed and Africa returns to its beginnings.
These are facts, nobody HAS to point fingers.

[FlingWingKing]

Mr Afriaviation,

I think you must have a chill pill dude!

Why dont you rather enjoy your fortunate situation instead of being such an insensitice spoiled brat....

You were OBVIOUSLY handed your job because of your colour and NOT your ability. If you dont like flying get out and become something else that pays more money and has no morale values required....

....like a pilotician!!

Maybe you can then be pro-active and FORCE the SA Aviation Industry to employ ALL those black pilots out there waiting the get the job they have been slogging for ........

.....NAUGHT!!!!

[Shrike200]

Thanks 4HP, my post was a bit much - sorry about that, I've axed it.

[contraxdog]

Here we go again... I have read the drivel, read the responses, read the insults, the apologies, and slowly came to the conclusion that once again we might be barking up the wrong tree.
I was told a long time ago, that the consideration of whether or not somebody should be employed was a simple one. Ask yourself this questions:
1." Do I believe the applicant infront of me was the best qualified and experienced applicant for the job.
2.Will I let the love of my life and the blood of my blood, board an aircraft piloted by the aplicant infront of me?

I dont care if they are black, white, brown, yellow, or even pink, pale or not. I believe that, that should be the major consideration, infact the only one. Please remember this is one of those extreme occupations, that causes death and distuction when you do it wrong. There will be no time to hire an army of consultants to rectify the problem, and get the train back on track. There will be no time for a committee to sit and discuss the problem, and suggest how to rectify the mistake and as how to accomodate the feelings of the culprit as not to make him feel better about being who he is.
He will be lying in the same hole in "terra firma" with the love of your life, and your first born.Resting in pieces.Dead.
I cannot change the way SAA or any company, chooses the way they employ the drivers at the sharp end. I can however decide where I spend my money. I vote with my feet. If I have the choice, I show my disdain, with the colour of my money. Until such time as they choose the best quilified, and experienced applicant for the post, they dont see the colour of my money.
To sum it up.
I dont think, any one should worry about the colour of the driver. Worry if he was the best man for the job!

[porridge]

contraxdog
Absolutely correct - very good post!
P

[cavortingcheetah]

:)

Indeed - a spot on post.
The only problem of course is that, as so often happens, the people on the selection boards, wherever they may be, are not necessarily governed by such basic elements of common sense and well rounded judgement.:ugh:

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Contrax

If you're a taxpayer they'll continue to stiff you anyhow to support their fantasies. Agreed, the best man for the job, regardless of race but nationality should be South African unless outside skills are required that are not available in SA.

That's SKILLS, not skin colour! Does anyone else see the wrongs of the past being perpetuated by the current regime? Discrimination against a population group has been shown to be wrong and unworkable so why are they doing it again?

[Kittycat]

Afriaviation... is that a fact? Just a pity the cadets couldnt pass the cadet programme that is served for them on a plate! I dont care if you black, pink or purple, but I really dont want to fly with a bunch of incompetent pilots just because of representing the rainbow nation.. or whatever.. I still believe that the best pilot must get the job.. doesnt matter what race or colour you are, but how the hell can any airline employ a spesific race just because of history? Im sorry, but I dont fly SAA , cause Im not sure if the pilots are qualified lately to land the plane.. or are they just sitting there because of South Africa's background/?????
I know personally of about 10 contract pilots thats extremely experienced.. but not one of them can get into SAA... sorry to pale... absolute crap...

[cavortingcheetah]

;) SRT.
'Why are they doing it again?'
'Those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them.'
(George Santayana.
And something to amuse you perhaps as you cast your mind's eye up and down the African sub-continent?
MEMORANDA.
BY MARK TWAIN.
"HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF."
The following I find in a Sandwich Island paper which some friend has sent me from that tranquil far-off retreat. The coincidence between my own experience and that here set down by the late Mr. Benton is so remarkable that I cannot forbear publishing and commenting upon the paragraph. The Sandwich Island paper says:
How touching is this tribute of the late Hon. T. H. Benton to his mother's influence: "My mother asked me never to use tobacco; I have never touched it from that time to the present day. She asked me not to gamble, and I have never gambled. I cannot tell who is losing in games that are being played. She admonished me, too, against liquor-drinking, and what ever capacity for endurance I have at present, and whatever usefulness I may have attained through life, I attribute to having complied with her pious and correct wishes. When I was seven years of age she asked me not to drink, and then I made a resolution of total abstinence and that I have adhered to it through all time I owe to my mother."
I never saw anything so curious. It is almost an exact epitome of my own moral career -- after simply substituting a grandmother for a mother. How well I remember my grandmother's asking me not to use tobacco, good old soul! She said, "You're at it again, are you, you whelp? Now, don't ever let me catch you chewing tobacco before breakfast again, or I lay I'll black snake you within an inch of your life !" I have never touched it at that hour of the morning from that time to the present day.
She asked me not to gamble. She whispered and said, "Put up those wicked cards this minute! -- two pair and a jack, you numskull, and the other fellow's got a flush! "
I never have gambled from that day to this -- never once --without a "cold deck" in my pocket. I cannot even tell who is going to lose in games that are being played unless I dealt myself.
When I was two years of age she asked me not to drink, and then I made a resolution of total abstinence. That I have adhered to it and enjoyed the beneficent effects of it through all time, I owe to my grandmother. I have never drunk a drop from that day to this of any kind of water. :p

I probably will fly SAA this year, more as an experiment than anything else, but, like as not, I shall make a telephone call or two or send the odd e mail to find out whether one of my chums might be up front.;)

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

Contax,

Nicely and succinctly put mate.

NEO:ok:

[B Sousa]

but nationality should be South African unless outside skills are required that are not available in SA.


SRT
The reason for that will be, because anyone who can is working somewhere else...........

[nutcracker43]

SAA

All this whinging about SAA not employing the most qualified makes me laugh.

About twenty five years ago I met a chium whom I had not seen for a number of years in Nairobi (when it was still an OK place). He was fairly pissed off because he had gone to SA for an interview with SAA and had not got the job. The reason...he did not have a matric...standard nine only. His family went northwards in the late 50's / early 60's. Naturally his schooling was disrupted and he took a job on the mines...he always wanted to fly as a kid and when the newly formed air force offered pilot training he took full advantage of the offer and did his training abroad...after fulfilling all obligations he applied for and took his ATPL in the US and later in the UK (FAA and CAA) and got a job flying 747's in Europe and later with a ME airline...he was more than well qualified, had two licences but because he did not have his matric the position was denied...what does that tell me about SAA... then and now...that not much has changed in reality even though it has philosophically.

NC43

[B Sousa]

Nutscracked
Guess What, SAA is not alone. Had a friend here in the states. 10K hours mainly in DC-8s and 737s, Interviewed with Southwest Airlines. No College Degree, No Job.........So hes driving 747-400s for a Cargo outfit. College degrees are important here in the states. Ask all the former Athletes who have Degrees and cannot read or write.

[Afriviation]

The answers to your questions will be found on my posts on Transformation in SA. Representitivity in the industry has nothing to do with passion, hard work, competency. That's a common denominatore whether you're black or white. Nowhere did I say incompetent blacks should be employed as pilots. I'm not going into the rule of black people in Africa, I do not know what the whites did there before they left. To genralise and say that black people can't tule themselves is an insult and can only be expected from the posters on this forum.

[4HolerPoler]

"The answers to your questions will be found on my posts on Transformation in SA" - which I have reluctantly closed as a result of your constant grandstanding on pale/non-pale/black/white agenda. Enough! I and the great majority of the members have no regard for what color you are; we respect ability and attitude. This is a final warning to all posters that the reference to color of skin-tones will no longer be tolerated on this forum. We have always prided ourselves on the multi-cultural and multi-ethnicity of this forum. Clearly that is no longer the case & the only way out of this miserable debate is a zero tolerance towards any reference to race, creed or religion.

This thread also closed.

4HP